Had the most pleasant shopping experience yesterday--

[Kev Williams]

Needed to go to Walmart for a few things. They implemented a mandatory mask rule last weekend. When I pulled into the parking lot first thing I noticed was there was barely half as many cars than normal, maybe less. The south doors were locked, entry/exit from the north doors only. Went in, grabbed my cart and wiped it down as I normally do, and went shopping.

Everyone was wearing. Place was only half full, plenty of move-around room, shelves were well stocked for the most part, checkout lines were minimal...

And it's apparent (to me anyway) why the store was half empty; half of their regular patrons would rather shop somewhere else than wear a mask...

So be it. I enjoyed it. Unlike the past 4 months, I actually felt safe while shopping. A little fog on my glasses is well worth it.

[Jim Koepke]

half of their regular patrons would rather shop somewhere else than wear a mask...

Shaking my head & LOL!


A little fog on my glasses is well worth it.

437078

:cool:

jtk

[Jim Becker]

True dat, Jim. Fortunately, I don't actually "need" to wear my glasses for distance vision and rarely need to use them for reading while shopping.

Kev, the Kohls near us has done similar with controlling entry/exit to one area since they are at the end of the building and have two possibilities for that. I don't know about Walmart because I never ever go there, but designating entrance/exit does make things easier to keep under control, especially if checkout and customer service is adjusted to be efficient while maintaining distancing.

[Ronald Blue]

Many more retailers are following the same course of action. I actually don't mind it if everyone has to do it. I think the people who take it out on the employees who are at the door are a special kind of a-hole. They don't make the policy and they shouldn't take the brunt of peoples anger. It's no secret that the mask is or will be required so either wear one or find somewhere else to shop. A win for you Kev.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Every Costco I’ve ever visited has had separate entries and exits.
As for mandatory masks, instead of commenting and having the thread taken down, I also feel better when other people respect my right to good health.

[Brian Tymchak]

We've been under a mandatory mask order in our county for several weeks now. Was a bit annoyed yesterday to see that the only people not wearing masks at the Home Depot were a couple employees.

[Robert Engel]

Don’t be so judgmental.

Not saying don’t wear one, but don’t think a mask will protect you that much.

N95 are best, cloth masks are useless. Touching mask, re-using mask, adjusting mask are likely more risky than not wearing

We have a mandatory mask ordinance in effect in my county for 3 weeks yet we’ve had record # of cases since then.

IMO mask wearing is highly overrated.



COVID is primarily spread by contaminated surface/touching face.

Washing hands is your best prevention.

[Frank Pratt]

Kev, I wish there was a like button.

[Andrew Seemann]

When I read through the Landscape and Nursery Association's COVID operating guidelines for the family biz, they mentioned separate entrance and exits. I would assume it is a standard recommendation to keep people from getting too close to each other.

I do feel bad for the people that have to wear masks for a full eight hour shift, or even a four hour one, especially if it is in some hot and humid environment, like the inside of a garden center. It is not easy. I tried to do it and could not. When our place opened in May, I lasted about an hour before I started getting panic attacks from claustrophobia. Even when I want to wear one, like when I visited in my dad last week, it still doesn't stop my heart racing, getting dizzy, and hyperventilating.

[Jim Koepke]

COVID is primarily spread by contaminated surface/touching face.

Robert, you may have missed some of the latest discoveries/information pertaining to covid-19.

This from webmd.com lists droplets or aerosols and airborne transmission above surface transmission.


Droplets or aerosols. When an infected person coughs, sneezes, or talks, droplets or tiny particles called aerosols carry the virus into the air from their nose or mouth. Anyone who is within 6 feet of that person can breathe it into their lungs.

Airborne transmission. Research shows that the virus can live in the air for up to 3 hours. It can get into your lungs if someone who has it breathes out and you breathe that air in.

Surface transmission. Another way to catch the new coronavirus is when you touch surfaces that someone who has the virus has coughed or sneezed on. You may touch a countertop or doorknob that's contaminated and then touch your nose, mouth, or eyes. The virus can live on surfaces like plastic and stainless steel for 2 to 3 days. To stop it, clean and disinfect all counters, knobs, and other surfaces you and your family touch several times a day.

This is why it is important for everyone to wear a mask whenever in public. It protects people from becoming infected by the mask wearer who may or may not know they are infected.

It may be that surface transmission has dropped due to people actually being aware of the danger and washing their hands and wiping down surfaces.

From the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the U.S.A. > https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857


We have elucidated the transmission pathways of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) by analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in the three epicenters. Our results show that the airborne transmission route is highly virulent and dominant for the spread of COVID-19. The mitigation measures are discernable from the trends of the pandemic. Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the trends of the pandemic. This protective measure significantly reduces the number of infections. Other mitigation measures, such as social distancing implemented in the United States, are insufficient by themselves in protecting the public.

Searching > covid-19 airborne transmission < indicates this new information appeared about two weeks ago.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

Kev, I wish there was a like button.

I'm pushing that too (in my mind). :)

I may be suffering from being naturally too self-isolated. Is there actually a faction that wants to go unmasked? Is this like the " I never wear a seat belt" or the "I don't have to use my turn signal because everyone is already watching me" syndrome?

Please feel free to pull this post if this is some sort of 'rant starter'. Not my intention. I'm just out of the loop.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Glenn, yes there is a faction like that, though I am not part of it.

[mike stenson]

Unfortunately, they also forget that other people.. and businesses have rights too.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Here, Walmart / Kohls HD/ Lowes / etc have been under the 50% rule for months. That means no more than 50% listed capacity of the building at any one time. As for someone who doesn't want to wear a mask, remember the "No shirt. no shoes" rule. While the complainers may want "their right" to not wear a mask, merchants have the right to set standards of dress for their store. As the old expression goes "Your rights ends where mine begins."

[Jim Becker]

Not saying don’t wear one, but don’t think a mask will protect you that much.

Marks do in fact reduce the transmission vectors for the virus because they disrupt the direct flow of active virus from droplette and aerosolized virus metter from folks who are infected, even if they don't know they are infected. A significant number of people are asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic and masks help stop transmission from these individuals. They are less protective for "incoming", but still offer a lot more benefit than not wearing one. This is the advice of the experts...infectious disease professionsonals who are epidemiologists (like Professor Dr. SWMBO) , doctors and other scientists. They readily agree that cloth face coverings do not provide ultimate protection, but they are very much "not" useless. N95 masks do offer very effective protection...IF, and only if, they are properly fitted to the individual.



COVID is primarily spread by contaminated surface/touching face.
This is absolutely false. The majority of COVID-19 infections are transmitted by breathing/coughing and other respiratory actions. It's possible to get from a surface that virus was deposited on relatively recently and hand-washing is very effective in reducing risk from getting the virus via your hands subsequently touching your face and eyes. But again, the whole point of masks and social distancing is to reduce the primary vector for the virus which is through the air in droplets from cough and aerosolized particles via normal breathing, speech and activities like singing.

[Steve Demuth]

Don’t be so judgmental.

N95 are best, cloth masks are useless. Touching mask, re-using mask, adjusting mask are likely more risky than not wearing


This is most definitely not the conclusion my employer has reached. We have required masks on campus since mid-April, and early on decided that for visitors, cloth masks were acceptable for this purpose.

Lest you think, "so what," my day job is as an executive at the Mayo Clinic. I trust the infections disease experts and epidemiologists who advised us on that decision.

[Steve Demuth]

Needed to go to Walmart for a few things. They implemented a mandatory mask rule last weekend. When I pulled into the parking lot first thing I noticed was there was barely half as many cars than normal, maybe less. The south doors were locked, entry/exit from the north doors only. Went in, grabbed my cart and wiped it down as I normally do, and went shopping.

Everyone was wearing. Place was only half full, plenty of move-around room, shelves were well stocked for the most part, checkout lines were minimal...

And it's apparent (to me anyway) why the store was half empty; half of their regular patrons would rather shop somewhere else than wear a mask...

So be it. I enjoyed it. Unlike the past 4 months, I actually felt safe while shopping. A little fog on my glasses is well worth it.

It just boggles my mind that in the small town where we shop, it has taken Walmart's action to get most people to even consider wearing a mask. Farm store? Maybe one in ten patrons masked. Grocery store, ditto. A few businesses have been welcome exceptions. The local food coop required masks from the day they re-opened for walk-in traffic, after only doing curbside pickup for 2 months. No problem with compliance.

[Kev Williams]

Question for the mathematically gifted: When it comes to the 'protection factor' of wearing masks, when factoring in 1 mask wearer within a group of non-wearers, vs all persons in a group wearing, would the exponential-increase thing (see, I don't even know what it's called ;) ) come into play or would it be more simple than that?

I'll try to better explain: I was googling for an answer to how effective masks are, never found one I was looking for, such as "wearing a mask makes you X-times less likely to contract or spread the virus."

I have no clue as to what the number may be, or even if such numbers could be applied in this scenario. But for the sake of argument, lets say they can, and that a mask makes you 3x less likely to spread or contract the virus. This assumes you wandering amongst a group of wearers and non-wearers -like 2 weeks ago at Walmart...

Given that, how then would the factor of 3x less likely increase, assuming you're wandering around amongst a group that are ALL wearing? Would the factor increase exponentially, or simply double, or not change?

if exponentially, would an entire group of wearers then be 9x less likely to catch/spread the virus? Or if simply doubled then 6x less? Or would or no change would remain at 3x... Which is STILL better than the 0x protection of not wearing :)

Hope that made sense, as I AM curious...

[Bill Dufour]

I have no idea how accurate this is. It was sent to me, as a text message, by a friend who is a lunch lady at school. For some reason the lower most image is cut off it should read 1.5%
Bill D.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is another graphic on masks:

437106

There is another graphic that may be too risqué to post here. It can be found on Google images > are fabric masks sensible meme < It compares masks to wearing pants during a different bodily function.

jtk

[Steve Eure]

Mask or no mask. I'm so confused by all the data that keeps popping up , that contradicts the other data. Who knows what to believe anymore. I for one will wear a mask when around others in a store simply because I've had a transplant that went horribly wrong and don't want to go through that again. But it boggles my mind to see the employees at Walmart who are "wearing their mask" on their chins. Not doing a whole lot of good Karen! Well, I guess they can tell their supervisors that "I was wearing my mask. You didn't specify how or where".

[Tom M King]

The Math is really simple. It's an odds thing. The number that matters, is the overall average number of people that infected people spread it to. If that number stays below 1, the number of infections goes down. You can see by this, that any one thing that is done to cut down on the spread, will make a difference overall.

Even if the number is slightly over 1, the numbers will be much more manageable by the hospitals.

It's a Coronavirus, much like the common cold, which spreads by any means possible, including droplets in the air.

You can see by this simple math, that masks don't have to be 100% effective to make a difference. Of course, the more effective they are, and the more effectively they are used, the lower will be the number of transmissions.

The same Math works the same way for the experts, like the CDC. They don't have to be right all the time, just most of the time. They are humans, but typically very smart ones. Politicians, not so much.

It's really pathetic how long this has lasted. It could have been stopped in a month. Like I've said before, the trouble is just too may dumb people, including mostly people who can't think for themselves clearly enough to make good decisions without listening to propaganda, and conspiracy theories. It all really is very simple.

[eugene thomas]

Ya. If only would not of exempt groups of people from following the rules. But some things are "just more important".

[Robert Engel]

I don’t want to argue, but you can believe the CDC about masks or not. I obey our local mask ordinances, but I do not equate a mask with protection. I’ve read a study they estimate 65% effectiveness. What? How exactly do they measure that?

Touching the mask/face IS a significant means of transfer. Are you taking your mask on/off with bare hands? Your hand could be contaminated. I see people wearing it under their nose. People wearing masks walking down a deserted sidewalk, driving in their care, riding a bike is evidence to me many people are either scared or have a misconception.

Direct aerosol transmission is requires an actively infected person, with symptoms, in close contact with someone. There is also ample evidence that asymptomatic people and children do not shed virus.

I stand by what I said about re-using/touching mask, and cloth masks being useless.

If herd immunity is a valid concept (and it is) why are teenagers and 20 yr olds wearing masks

The epidemic will end when it either burns through, herd immunity, a vaccine or the virus mutates & weakens.

From the New England Journal of Medicine, May:

“We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.“

[Mel Fulks]

Some months back there were reports of gunfire in my Walmart. Bunch of "bulletins ",but only briefly ...or boxerly.
Guy on toilet let his pistol fall on the floor ; time to clean that weapon ! So we might soon be ordered to wear "steel cups". " He was in his cups might soon mean obeying the law and ...breaking the law.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I stand by what I said about re-using/touching mask, and cloth masks being useless.

If herd immunity is a valid concept (and it is) why are teenagers and 20 yr olds wearing masks

The epidemic will end when it either burns through, herd immunity, a vaccine or the virus mutates & weakens.



Robert, I think some of your statements are factually incorrect or out-of-date. You also seem to be cherry-picking a few pieces of information from a sea of data that shows masks to be effective.

But setting that aside, may I (genuinely politely) ask: do you think the public health experts are less qualified or able to collect and interpret this information than you are? When you say you've "read a study" - have you actually read the study, or just a pop news article summarizing it?

Countries that have relied heavily on science and trusted their experts (e.g. New Zealand) have been recovering. Countries where every layman thinks his opinion matters....well....

[Jim Koepke]

Mask or no mask. I'm so confused by all the data that keeps popping up , that contradicts the other data. Who knows what to believe anymore.

The information changes as new discoveries come to light. One also has to consider the source of the information. Some talking head with an agenda isn't as reliable source as the CDC.


From the New England Journal of Medicine, May:

“We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection.

This is information from a couple of months ago. It is still correct. Wearing a mask only protects the wearer from infection to a minimum degree.

Wearing a mask helps to prevent an infected person from infecting others.

In our current state of affairs it isn't possible for me to say I have not been infected. It isn't possible for anyone to know if they have been infected without being tested. In most cases the test results will not be known for days. During the time one is waiting for their test results they could become infected. In many parts of the nation it is next to impossible to get tested.

The solution is simple, GET WITH THE PROGRAM AND WEAR A MASK!

If the employees in a retail outlet are being idiots about wearing their masks my reaction might be to find a manager and let them know why it is unsafe to shop in their store.

jtk

[Brian Tymchak]

Here's a link that does a nice job of presenting the current science of mask efficacy. A few sections into the article cites some studies on experiments of masks.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

[John K Jordan]

I don’t want to argue, but you can believe the CDC about masks or not. I obey our local mask ordinances, but I do not equate a mask with protection. I’ve read a study they estimate 65% effectiveness. What? How exactly do they measure that? ...


I try to keep an open mind about the recommendations, keeping in mind that recommendations change when new information is discovered through evolving understanding based on research.

For example, a recent article in the Wall Street Journal titled "Face Masks Really Do Matter. The Scientific Evidence Is Growing" cites evolving research. A closing comment: "Wearing a mask is one of the most urgent things we can do to get our country under control..." In the absence of vaccines, "...We have masks, we have social distancing, and we have testing. But there's not much more in the toolbox here."

Among other things, the article cites a recent study from Mass General Brigham health care system in Massachusetts, including this: "...results support universal masking as part of a multipronged infection reduction strategy..." The study is titled "Association Between Universal Masking in a Health Care System and SARS-CoV-2 Positivity Among Health Care Workers."

How to measure mask effectiveness? Other research cited in the WSJ article describes methods of testing different types of masks, for example "...using a mannequin's head [and a method that] mechanically simulated a cough." This, of course, makes assumptions based on the most accepted current understanding of transmission.

Facing the unknown, each person, of course, will act based on their current understanding, trust, and caution. Due to caution and my chronic respiratory issues I choose to wear an N95 or better mask/respirator as I consider appropriate. For me, even unquantified but observed effectiveness is sufficient incentive.

I suspect at some point in the future history will provide clarity through hindsight. It is difficult to argue that what we are doing now effective. Reported to date: almost 4 million cases with the trend of over 70,000 new cases per day, over 140,000 deaths in the US, and unknowable long-term health complications for those who have been infected and recovered.

JKJ

[Jim Koepke]

There is also ample evidence that asymptomatic people and children do not shed virus.

Robert, this is another misunderstanding promoted by some uninformed sources.

Do a search on > asymptomatic shedding covid < to find more information.

Another point to consider is this is a situation with a very short history. It is still in the early stages of understanding.

jtk

[Alan Rutherford]

...Direct aerosol transmission is requires an actively infected person, with symptoms, in close contact with someone. There is also ample evidence that asymptomatic people and children do not shed virus...

There might be circumstances when that's true but I'm not aware of them. As a general rule, asymptomatic (often that's really pre-symptomatic) carriers of a virus will shed the virus. In some cases they are more contagious during the pre-symptomatic phase.

But IMO what's important isn't whether you can find wiggle room to talk yourself out of a safety precaution. It's like pointing a gun at someone and saying it's not loaded. Maybe it's not but considering the risk if you're wrong, don't point one at me. You might not think you'll give me this virus and you probably won't, but if you do I'm likely to die. Don't expect me to be happy taking that risk.

[Michael Weber]

I don’t want to argue, but you can believe the CDC about masks or not. I obey our local mask ordinances, but I do not equate a mask with protection. I’ve read a study they estimate 65% effectiveness. What? How exactly do they measure that?

Touching the mask/face IS a significant means of transfer. Are you taking your mask on/off with bare hands? Your hand could be contaminated. I see people wearing it under their nose. People wearing masks walking down a deserted sidewalk, driving in their care, riding a bike is evidence to me many people are either scared or have a misconception.

Direct aerosol transmission is requires an actively infected person, with symptoms, in close contact with someone. There is also ample evidence that asymptomatic people and children do not shed virus.

I stand by what I said about re-using/touching mask, and cloth masks being useless.

If herd immunity is a valid concept (and it is) why are teenagers and 20 yr olds wearing masks

The epidemic will end when it either burns through, herd immunity, a vaccine or the virus mutates & weakens.

From the New England Journal of Medicine, May:

“We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.“ The whole article as printed in The New England Journal was confusing. They later printed this From the authors of the original article..
“Universal Masking in the Covid-19 Era
TO THE EDITOR
We understand that some people are citing our Perspective article (published on April 1 at NEJM.org) as support for discrediting widespread masking. In truth, the intent of our article was to push for more masking, not less. It is apparent that many people with SARS-CoV-2 infection are asymptomatic or presymptomatic yet highly contagious and that these people account for a substantial fraction of all transmissions. Universal masking helps to prevent such people from spreading virus-laden secretions, whether they recognize that they are infected or not.”

[Kev Williams]

As to this graphic:
437153
-I did a little research and found the missing number at the bottom is 1.5%...
I also found a fact checking website that explained this graphic, and since it's an interesting read, I highly recommend it:

https://www.statesman.com/news/20200706/fact-check-how-much-do-masks-reduce-coronavirus-lsquocontagion-probabilityrsquo

For those who prefer the short version:


A viral social media image claims to show “contagion probabilities” in different scenarios depending on whether masks are worn.

Experts agreed the image does convey an idea that is right: Wearing a mask is likely to interfere with the spread of COVID-19.
But, although this message has a hint of accuracy, the image leaves out important details and context, namely the source for the contagion probabilities it seeks to illustrate. Experts said evidence for the specific probabilities doesn’t exist.

We rate it Mostly False.

In bold italics above, and the whole article in general, pretty much answered my question on 'protection factors'...

[Robert Engel]

Alan, it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus. That said, of course we should take safety precautions.

Michael, lots of things have changed since April, including the intense political and social pressure for masking. What I think has been lost is COVID transmission requires close intimate contact.

Casual contact walking through a store or an a sidewalk is very low risk, even without a mask.

From NEJM “Universal Masking in the COVID-19 Era June, 2020:

“A growing body of research shows that the risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission is strongly correlated with the duration and intensity of contact: the risk of transmission among household members can be as high as 40%, whereas the risk of transmission from less intense and less sustained encounters is below 5%”

This is without any PPE At all.
Again, from the Article, (referring to the May article I cited previously):

“We did state in the article that “wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection,” but as the rest of the paragraph makes clear, we intended this statement to apply to passing encounters in public spaces, not sustained interactions within closed environments.“

I am NOT saying don’t wear a mask, I am saying please do not think you are well protected. Be aware that re-using masks, touching the mask, taking it on and off, etc. are dangerous and can cause a transfer if the virus.

Every time you take off your mask wash your hands or use hand sanitizer.

[Jim Koepke]

it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus. That said, of course we should take safety precautions.

My Google Fingers aren't working well at finding a link for this one. It looks like the science is still unsettled.


Be aware that re-using masks, touching the mask, taking it on and off, etc. are dangerous and can cause a transfer if the virus.

Maybe this is why some folks do not take their masks off while driving. For me going from one store to another a short drive away is no reason to take my mask off.

It seems if a person isn't infected and removes their mask carefully it will not infect them as long as they haven't been breathed or coughed upon by people who are infected and not wearing masks.

jtk

[Michael Weber]

Well I had a very disturbing, even disgusting, close encounter at a grocery store this morning while checking out. Nothing was said, I’m not confrontational, but arriving home I washed my hands and arms and then my face with antibacterial soap. If I’d had a tub of hand sanitizer I would have taken a dip. My city has passed an ordnance requiring masks in stores and certain other areas. It starts tomorrow. I’m very glad and hope it is enforced but I live in Arkansas. I don’t envy any employees charged with enforcement.

[Andrew Joiner]

Alan, it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus.
Robert could you please show us the data on that?

I even wear a mask around others who don't when we're in our yard. I'm very aware of what 6' looks like. Many people are not and kids of course don't maintain 6'.

Masks are a valuable piece of gear that I started using years ago for woodworking. Now the virus adds to the desire to get better masks. Of course the more a mask protects, the more uncomfortable it is. As breathability goes up, protection goes down. Whether it's dust or virus. Valves help for dust, but even a valved respirator is not fun to wear.

I'm surprised there is no way to get reviews or data on buying masks. Data like fit, breathability, and virus particle filtration would help. The n95 is proven but still unavailable. I wear surgical masks, but I'd like something with more protection.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm surprised there is no way to get reviews or data on buying masks.

Masks are being made by many different people and companies. Almost impossible to even know what materials are being used day to day.

jtk

[bill epstein]

I will accept that there is some doubt of efficacy but with even a small amount of data that suggests masks reduce the likelihood of transmission, wearing a mask tells your neighbors you care about them. Doesn't that trump the political or inconvenience aspect of not wearing?

[Jon Nuckles]

Alan, it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus.

Robert's other statements have been pretty well refuted by others (and thank you to those others for helping to stop the spread of disinformation). As to the statement about children spreading the virus, the quoted material below is from a New York Times article published online yesterday:

"In the heated debate over reopening schools, one burning question has been whether and how efficiently children can spread the virus to others.
A large new study from South Korea offers an answer: Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. And those between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do."

[Jim Koepke]

Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero.

Are children younger than 10 less vocal than those older than 10?

This would be an interesting subject to study.

Though, "the risk is not zero" makes me wonder how many parents would want to send their children to school with a low chance they may become infected and bring a potentially deadly virus home with them?

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

It seems crazy that enough people are opposed to masks that Walmart would see a significant drop in customer visits. Those opposed to masks are going to find fewer and fewer places to shop as most of the big retail chains are starting to require masks. Target is requiring masks on Aug 1st. The largest grocery chain here has a sign at the door recommending masks and they sell masks for $1. It is silly they don't outright require masks. I wear a mask any time I visit a store out of respect for others.

Menards has required masks for a couple of months and their sales don't seem to be down.

[Robert Engel]

Personally, I think scientific & medical journals are better sources of info than the NYT.

A couple child related references:

This article in Nature (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0) is one that addresses the transmission risk in children. As time goes by, more and more information is coming to light about the low risk of infection by children.

The article "COVID-19 in Children and the Dynamics of Infection in Families" referenced here (COVID-19 in Children and the Dynamics of Infection in Families) which has the latest conclusions about children & COVID transmission which back up my statement. Of course, you are free to draw your own conclusions.

"The data are striking," said Dr. Raszka. "The key takeaway is that children are not driving the pandemic. After six months, we have a wealth of accumulating data showing that children are less likely to become infected and seem less infectious; it is congregating adults who aren't following safety protocols who are responsible for driving the upward curve."

Quite remarkable is the one reference of a Swiss child that exposed over 80 other children and not one contracted COVID.

Latest CDC data of Feb - July data:

Of 97,459 of COVID deaths, people 65 and over account for 80% of all deaths

Of those, the breakdown is
>85 41%
75-84 33%
65-74 15%

Age 24 and younger: 0.15%.

Ages 5-14 14 deaths, or 0.014%. I am confident the # of death from influenza, accidents, cancer, etc. is many X this.

Anyone who wants can keep their children home certainly can, but it is very clear the risk is extremely small, far outweighed by negative social, psychological & developmental consequences, not to mention many children live in bad home environments.

I'm not intending to be controversial. I'm trying to point out there are valid sources of information that you don't have to be versed in science or medicine to understand.

[mike stenson]

I will accept that there is some doubt of efficacy but with even a small amount of data that suggests masks reduce the likelihood of transmission, wearing a mask tells your neighbors you care about them. Doesn't that trump the political or inconvenience aspect of not wearing?

One would think so, or at least hope so.

What people miss is a fabric mask is not primary personal protective equipment. It reduces the amount of airflow out of their mouths, that lowers spread of air out of their lungs. It's fluid dynamics, not filtration.

[Roger Feeley]

I look at masks as part of a system to better my odds. Think of it like a table saw.

1. I have a Sawstop
2. I have and use a guard with anyone kickback fingers.
3. When needed, I have and use a roving knife
4. I have and use push sticks
5. I always stand a bit to on side in case of kickback
6. I keep my floor relatively clean so I have good traction
7. Im aware of my body position/center of gravity so that if it goes south, I won’t fall into the blade
8. By habit, I pre-visualize the cut to anticipate obstruction, etc
9. I have and use an out feed table

none of these things, by themselves or in aggregate, can guarantee that I won’t get hurt. But each of these things improve my odds and are worth doing.

It’s the same way with masks. That’s just one part (a big one) of a system that I hope will both reduce my odds of being infected and contribute to a lower transmission rate in the population. I also carry and use hand sanitizer. I limit my trips to stores. I order my groceries online for curbside pickup thereby reducing my time in the store. I order more stuff online than I ever have before.

[Kev Williams]

Sweden has been taking the 'let the chips fall where they may' approach to covid-19, whereas their Nordic neighbors have been taking a more social-distancing approach.
Let's see how well this has been turning out for Sweden-

437206 437207

-note that Sweden's population is only double that of Norway, Denmark and Finland:
Sweden--- 10.23 million
Denmark-- 5.8 million
Norway--- 5.37 million
Finland---- 5.518 million
-so even cutting the long blue lines in half, the difference is significant--

Pure real world results of 3 countries taking masks and social distancing seriously, and the one who didn't.

Proof enough for small minded-me

[Michael Weber]

I read the article Robert’s first link referred to. The conclusions are indeterminate with various results from different facilities. It certainly doesn’t seem to clear the way for wholesale school reopening. “ In fact, two preprints have reported that children with COVID-19 symptoms can have similar levels of viral RNA to adults. “Based on these results, we have to caution against an unlimited re-opening of schools and kindergartens in the present situation. Children may be as infectious as adults” Unfortunately the second link doesn’t work for me.

[Jim Koepke]

I read the article Robert’s first link referred to. The conclusions are indeterminate with various results from different facilities. It certainly doesn’t seem to clear the way for wholesale school reopening. “ In fact, two preprints have reported that children with COVID-19 symptoms can have similar levels of viral RNA to adults. “Based on these results, we have to caution against an unlimited re-opening of schools and kindergartens in the present situation. Children may be as infectious as adults” Unfortunately the second link doesn’t work for me.

The first link is an article from a few months ago.

The second article was found by searching on > COVID-19 in Children and the Dynamics of Infection in Families <

The synopsis is the science is not quite settled. The infection rates may be lower. This would only affect me by two of my neighbors school age children passing me while walking to the mailbox. It might also cause more public transmission while shopping for groceries.

What is needed is a nationwide coordinated policy to stop the spread of this virus. Unfortunately in the current state of the general public there are still too many people who think this is all a hoax and will not go along with any effort to suppress this pandemic.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

I'm surprised there is no way to get reviews or data on buying masks. Data like fit, breathability, and virus particle filtration would help. The n95 is proven but still unavailable. I wear surgical masks, but I'd like something with more protection.

I doubt you'll find any mask available for purchase that has any real particle filtration. N95 masks are mostly going to medical use and any that actually make it to retail are snapped up immediately. If a mask was as good as an N95 medical facilities and/or the public would be buying them up. There are some KN95 masks out there for purchase.

Cloth masks are not intended to protect the wearer. They are intended to protect others around you from getting the virus from you if you unknowingly have it. The idea is that the spittle and such that comes from your mouth and nose will be filtered by the mask.

[Brian Elfert]

Needed to go to Walmart for a few things. They implemented a mandatory mask rule last weekend. When I pulled into the parking lot first thing I noticed was there was barely half as many cars than normal, maybe less. The south doors were locked, entry/exit from the north doors only. Went in, grabbed my cart and wiped it down as I normally do, and went shopping.

Everyone was wearing. Place was only half full, plenty of move-around room, shelves were well stocked for the most part, checkout lines were minimal...


I had a far different experience at Walmart today. I went in early afternoon and the parking lot was as full as ever. They had two employees in black shirts outside at the entrance enforcing the mask rule. No idea why they are making them stand outside in the heat.

[Michael Weber]

Thanks Jim. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/07/08/peds.2020-1576
i Read the article. I hope it’s accurate despite its limited scope. I will point out that the authors say “ with most pediatric cases described inside familial clusters6 (https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/07/08/peds.2020-1576#ref-6) and no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission.7 (https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/07/08/peds.2020-1576#ref-7),8 (https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/07/08/peds.2020-1576#ref-8)” The three comments to the article are interesting as well.

[mike stenson]

Cloth masks are not intended to protect the wearer. They are intended to protect others around you from getting the virus from you if you unknowingly have it. The idea is that the spittle and such that comes from your mouth and nose will be filtered by the mask.

Yep. Some in depth information on how this works from a reliable source.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0015044

[Michael Weber]

Yep. Some in depth information on how this works from a reliable source.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0015044 Thanks. Now I have a headache.:(

[Jim Becker]

As testing and infection rates increase, the tune is changing relative to younger folks including kids. This is an evolving, moving thing and even quality scientific writing from just a month or three ago may not represent reality. That's why there is such a major concern relative to opening schools, some of which start in only a couple of weeks, including those in the current national hot-spot, Florida. Infection rates are higher than were expected and while mortality rate is certainly lower, there are some funky and terrible things happening to some kids. You also have the risk for teachers and staff as well as for family members. This is a very complex thing. Right now, masks and distancing are pretty much the only available way to help reduce transmission until vaccine trials run their course. Fortunately, at least two of them are showing very promising results in Phase One and Phase Two trials and one is about to enter into Phase Three with 30K participants. They are getting immune response that also includes positive T-cell behaviors, at least in the short term. Whether the same response holds for the longer term is yet to be determined.

[mike stenson]

Thanks. Now I have a headache.:(

Sorry, maybe I should have warned you.. I'm an engineer.

[Kev Williams]

Out of all those words in that article, these stood out to me:

Although both surgical and N95 masks decelerate the turbulent jet, none of them will prevent the droplets entirely from penetrating or escaping the mask, i.e., droplet transmission.
So, masks aren't perfectly sealed-- By now most of us are aware of this. Bullet-proof vests won't stop all bullets, but rare is the cop who won't wear one in a situation where bullets may fly. Regardless of however imperfect masks may be, they are at the very least a barrier, even if a crappy one. Put 2 crappy barriers in use against one another and they start to act like 1 decent barrier.

ANY barrier is better than no barrier. Even a screen door will stop 50 to 80% of airflow :)

[Bill Dufour]

I had a far different experience at Walmart today. I went in early afternoon and the parking lot was as full as ever. They had two employees in black shirts outside at the entrance enforcing the mask rule. No idea why they are making them stand outside in the heat.

I bet it wasn't really that hot. Probably below 100 there. The box stores were counting people in and out with limits on how many inside at any time before masks were required. Now with all indoor public spaces masks are required and they no longer count folks in and out. I went to othe rstore sand came back if the line was too long. and it was over 100 that day. It was over 100 most days in late June and July so far.
Bil lD

[Bert Kemp]

My biggest problem with wally world is they have the entrance door at the opposite end of the building from the pharmacy which is about the only thing I go in there for. I can't walk very far so its very hard for me to get my meds.

[Bill Dufour]

I have read that children, and daughters grandchildren, of women who got Spanish Flu in 1918 as little girls, including unborn, have statistically significantly shorter lives and more health problems. This affects grand daughters from the atomic bombing in Japan as well. I hope covid19 does not do this as well, but who knows.
Remember that,unlike a boy, a baby girl is born with all the eggs she will ever have. So her eggs, and unborn children, are forever affected by anything that happened envitro. I have no idea if that is true of other mammals.
Bill D

[Andrew Seemann]

I bet it wasn't really that hot. Probably below 100 there. The box stores were counting people in and out with limits on how many inside at any time before masks were required. Now with all indoor public spaces masks are required and they no longer count folks in and out. I went to othe rstore sand came back if the line was too long. and it was over 100 that day. It was over 100 most days in late June and July so far.
Bil lD

Minnesota has the reputation of being cold, but it gets hot and humid here in the summer, just not as long as most places. Last week it was as or more hot and humid in Minneapolis than Orlando, Charlotte, Dallas, Nashville, etc. Dewpoints were in the upper 70s, just plain miserable, and hard to breathe, even without a mask.

Actually one of the highest verified dew points ever recorded in the USA was 88F in Moorhead MN, 150 miles south of Canada. The heat index was 134F.

[Brian Elfert]

I bet it wasn't really that hot. Probably below 100 there. The box stores were counting people in and out with limits on how many inside at any time before masks were required. Now with all indoor public spaces masks are required and they no longer count folks in and out. I went to othe rstore sand came back if the line was too long. and it was over 100 that day. It was over 100 most days in late June and July so far.


Your location show California which is usually very dry and has low dew points. Dew point was in the 70s here on Saturday with a temperature of 90 degrees. I was outside for less than five minutes in long pants and my shirt was soaked with sweat when I came in. (Long pants because I always wear long pants when working in my basement shop.)

I would much rather be outside in dry 100 degree heat than in humid 90 degree heat. The problem with Minnesota is for more than half the year it is either too hot or too cold to do much outside.

[mike stenson]

Minnesota has the reputation of being cold, but it gets hot and humid here in the summer, just not as long as most places. Last week it was as or more hot and humid in Minneapolis than Orlando, Charlotte, Dallas, Nashville, etc. Dewpoints were in the upper 70s, just plain miserable, and hard to breathe, even without a mask.

Actually one of the highest verified dew points ever recorded in the USA was 88F in Moorhead MN, 150 miles south of Canada. The heat index was 134F.


Around the cities is horrible. Hot in the summer, cold in the winter. It's much better along Superior.


we do, however, have people who come to vacation die here every year.. because they think it's cooler than it is.

[Roger Feeley]

I doubt you'll find any mask available for purchase that has any real particle filtration. N95 masks are mostly going to medical use and any that actually make it to retail are snapped up immediately. If a mask was as good as an N95 medical facilities and/or the public would be buying them up. There are some KN95 masks out there for purchase.

Cloth masks are not intended to protect the wearer. They are intended to protect others around you from getting the virus from you if you unknowingly have it. The idea is that the spittle and such that comes from your mouth and nose will be filtered by the mask.

Brian,
my cloth masks have an inner pocket for a layer of non-woven polypropylene similar to what’s in the n95 masks. There’s a company in Leawood, KS named Filti that’s selling the stuff by the yard to us mask makers.

i would add that the protection offered by masks seems to be related to their design. Pleated surgical masks are to protect other people from you. The form fitting n95 masks with a vent are to protect you from other people. Those do no good in protecting others.

It gets interesting when you think about a group of people wearing a combination of types. Let’s assume that all masks are 100% effective for their designed purpose. A sick person wearing a vented n95 mask might as well be wearing nothing. In fact it might make more sense if they weren’t wearing any mask because others would stay away. A surgical masK on a well person also serves no purpose. But if everyone were to wear the same type of mask, the virus would be stopped. This is where national leadership would be so effective.

[Jim Becker]

Roger, the masks that Professor Dr. SWMBO made also have the pocket and a non-woven filter insert. These masks are essentially three layers with that.

[Erik Loza]

I am in shops a lot less now than pre-Covid but of course, always wear a mask. It is brutally hot and humid here in Central TX right now. We have accumulated several styles since the beginning of all this but my favorite so far as these KN95's (from China) that we buy in bulk. They come in a flat envelope and have an aluminum nose strip you can somewhat mold. They fold open like an origami and seal pretty good around the face. Some type of polypropylene, I guess? You get a little bit of a "snout" look, since the crease runs vertically, but the extra breathing space they give you around your nose and mouth makes a huge difference. The issue with the cloth face-hugging types was that they were just stifling to wear in the shop. I keep one of these KN95's hanging from the mirror of my wagon plus a few extras always in the tool kit.

Erik

[Bruce Page]

Erik, how many uses do you get out of the KN95’s?

[Erik Loza]

Erik, how many uses do you get out of the KN95’s?

Bruce, they've been surprisingly durable for me. I discard them right away if it was used in a customer's shop. Mostly due to dust (I have bad allergies) but the one I keep in my vehicle for trips to lowes and whatnot, I've been using for weeks and still works fine. They're actually quite nice for being a cheap mask.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

I believe that ToolNut currently has KN95 masks available for folks who want them.

[Bruce Page]

Thanks Erik & Jim. I ordered a few packs from ToolNut @ $7.99 for 5. Amazon wanted $20 for 5.

[mike stenson]

I have some, I will state. Clearly. That there is no mfg lot # on these. So I would not advise using them as PRIMARY PPE in environments that require n95/p100 or equivalent.


I use these as one would normally use irritant dust masks, and they work well for trips to the store and are comfortable. But, I do sill have a p100 respirator, and use it when required.

[Erik Loza]

Thanks Erik & Jim. I ordered a few packs from ToolNut @ $7.99 for 5. Amazon wanted $20 for 5.

We ordered them during the initial panic period. My boss probably paid $20 a mask, LOL. Along with $75 for a gallon of hand sanitizer. :D

Erik

[Michael Weber]

Eric’s N95 ask sounds like one I picked up yesterday at a local hardware store. Made in China. Although marked on the material as N95 I wouldn’t trust it to be a true N95 mask but assume it’s better than the paper masks I’ve been using. It does feel less constricting. Local ordinance started Monday for masks. As far as I could tell on my trip to the big box store everyone is complying. Of course there are a few wearing them improperly. I hope for a drop in the spread.

[Andrew Joiner]

Thanks everyone.
I just ordered some KN95 masks.
This site has good comparison to N95 data: https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/whats-the-difference-between-n95-and-kn95-masks/

[Rod Sheridan]

Shaking my head &

437078

:cool:

jtk

Haha, that’s me Jim, thanks for the laugh, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Robert, the mask isn’t to protect you, it’s to protect others from you...Rod

[Andrew Joiner]

Robert, the mask isn’t to protect you, it’s to protect others from you...Rod
Hopefully both you and others:
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/20/893227088/growing-body-of-evidence-suggests-masks-protect-those-wearing-them-too

[Frank Pratt]

Robert, the mask isn’t to protect you, it’s to protect others from you...Rod

This was explained to him a number of times by several people in another (now deleted) thread.

[Brian Elfert]

Minnesota today joined the list of states with mandatory face mask rules in force. Not every public place has gotten the word yet apparently. I went to Fleetpride this morning and the two employees were not wearing mask and there was another customer not wearing a mask yet. Walmart has a giant banner about the mask requirement and an employee outside checking for masks. One of the entrance doors is now closed off too.

I read a comment online about a guy who was shopping at a local hardware store instead of Menards because he refuses to wear a mask. Every retailer is supposed to require masks now. I hope he gets hit with the $100 fine if he still refuses to wear a mask.

[Jim Koepke]

I read a comment online about a guy who was shopping at a local hardware store instead of Menards because he refuses to wear a mask. Every retailer is supposed to require masks now. I hope he gets hit with the $100 fine if he still refuses to wear a mask.

A mandatory 14 day quarantine could also be an effective way to reward the noncompliant. Especially if it doubled on a second offense.

jtk

[Kev Williams]

Boy. And i thought i lived in america.
puh leeze. Do you actually believe it's your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to infect law abiding citizens with a proven deadly virus?

[mike stenson]

puh leeze. Do you actually believe it's your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to infect law abiding citizens with a proven deadly virus?

Remember when I said people forget that others have rights too? This is why this is really only a problem in the US.

[eugene thomas]

I actuslly do wear mask when near people or in stores that require it. But if i wear a mask and their so effrctive then i should be safe. I actually went in to a hardware store today and no one else wearing mask. Their choice. I got what needed and left.

[Jim Koepke]

I actuslly do wear mask when near people or in stores that require it. But if i wear a mask and their so effrctive then i should be safe. I actually went in to a hardware store today and no one else wearing mask. Their choice. I got what needed and left.

Many times the effectiveness of wearing a mask and how it does more to protect people from a possible virus infection of those wearing a mask has been explained. Here is a visual aid:

437627

This is why it is my choice to not go into an environment where people are not wearing masks to cover their mouth and nose.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

I actuslly do wear mask when near people or in stores that require it. But if i wear a mask and their so effrctive then i should be safe. I actually went in to a hardware store today and no one else wearing mask. Their choice. I got what needed and left.

The issue is that "my mask protects you and your mask protects me". So you having your mask on "primarily" reduces the chance that others will be exposed your potential exhalation of virus if you happen to have it asymptomatically or pre-symptomatically. This is because it disrupts the direct air flow from your mouth and nose toward them. The others not having a mask on means you are not afforded the same level of risk...they were potentially exposing you to the virus and your mask is less effective in that direction. It's a two way street with masks and the most effective scenario is when all parties are wearing them properly.

[Bill Dufour]

If I go to a nude beach do I have to wear a mask? Forcing people to wear clothes in public seems to be fairly non-controversial in the USA. I am not aware of any health hazard from walking around nude. San Francisco had to pass a law that nudists sitting on a public bench had to sit on a towel.
Bil lD
No shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service

[Brian Elfert]

I was at a local hardware store yesterday that is pretty big for a hardware store. They made the main aisles of the store one way and there is a long winding maze to get to the registers where they have a queue set up. They make you wait until the cashier calls you up so the cashier can sanitize between each customer.

The stupid part is they have a modern card reader that can take swipe, chip, or tap transactions, but they still make you sign a paper receipt with a pen! Credit card companies eliminated the signing requirement several years ago. The cashier said she gets lots of complaints about having to sign.

[Adam Grund]

No shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service
I’m pretty nuetral on the mask thing, I don’t care to get in to arguments about it- I’m more of a you do you I’ll do me guy. If I gotta mask up to go buy my groceries so be it. But damn does it get old listening to maskholes on both sides of the aisle. Listening to local talk radio all the callers calling in talking about violating their rights and taking their freedoms away all I could think about was well good thing you don’t have to wear shirt and shoes in stores 😂

[Bert Kemp]

Talk about hypocrites , AZ Gov Ducey and staff:eek::rolleyes:
437703

[Jim Koepke]

Talk about hypocrites , AZ Gov Ducey and staff:eek::rolleyes:
437703

On July 8th this was posted on a Tucson, AZ TV Station's web site:


Arizona's explosion in coronavirus cases has made it the No. 1 global pandemic hot spot.

IMO, it is worse than hypocrisy.

Leaders need to learn about leading by example instead of decree.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

The three folks in that photo are physically separated and are also not facing each other. This is not unusual for the kind of presentation to the cameras they are making. When they get up from that media table, however, the masks need to go on as they move away.

[eugene thomas]

Wonder how long would take for camara following mask warior to catch them with mask off.

[Bert Kemp]

Wonder how long would take for camara following mask warior to catch them with mask off.


I can show you hundreds of pictures of him meeting people with no mask on, including National guard troops and the President. He hates wearing it and very seldom puts one on.

[Rod Sheridan]

I was in a store a couple of weeks ago with a basket of masks beside the hand sanitizer on a table at the door. If you needed a mask you took one, at no cost.

Masks were required as per store policy.....Rod

[Bert Kemp]

You hear about all the cases of covid in the city's, the hospitals,nursing homes, , the stores and all , but I haven't heard a word anywhere about the cases on our Military Bases. Have I just missed those reports or are they not saying how our Military has been affected.

[Jim Becker]

The military is also struggling with this, but for good reason, it's not likely being highly publicised, outside of the aircraft carrier incident that was heavily in the news awhile back.

[Robert Engel]

This was explained to him a number of times by several people in another (now deleted) thread.

I understand the concept of mask, but I happen to think concept is flawed. I not only have the right to believe that, I happen to have a scientific basis for it and there are other people more qualified than me who agree regarding masks & their efficacy at preventing the aerosol spread of viruses.

I'm asking you to have an open mind and maybe not trust everything you're being told. who is dying? where did they die? when did they die? That for every + COVID test there are 10,20, maybe up to 80X as many people already infected and recovered? All this information is easily available.

What % of deaths are in people >65? >80? How many children under 14 have died of COVID? In the NYC outbreak, there were zero deaths in people <18.

How many people think children spread the virus? A number of studies around the world have proven that children are a negligible source of spread, yet millions of school children will be held out of classes.

How about the data itself? There is ample evidence the death data maybe overstated. An audit by Gov. Polis in CO showed that 25% of COVID deaths were falsely attributed.

So who are we to believe about masks? The Surgeon General? Our governor? mayor? Where is the scientific data on the efficacy of masks? You have to look for the information in scientific journals and infectious disease publications, not PBS or CNN. I cited one article about masks in another thread.

But its not just about whether masks work, but what mask? how is it worn? how is it handled? The science tells us a single layer cloth mask is useless at containing virus laden droplets in a sneeze or cough, even a level 3 mask, even an N95 with an exhale port. How about when an infected person coughs or sneezes into a mask they are now breathing through a contaminated mask, inhaling untold #'s of viruses, increasing their own virus load. Guys, don't believe me - check it out. Learn about droplet sizes, how far they travel, etc. before you place all your confidence is what the authorities are telling you.

How about people touching contaminated masks? re-using masks? wearing masks incorrectly? touching the face even while wearing a mask? e.g. putting glasses on and off, etc. Touching a contaminated surface then touching their mask? Is the public being educated on this, or just expected "get the word" and follow along because "it must be right".

Before you write me off, I have a background in Microbiology, I work in the health care profession and deal with infectious diseases on a daily basis. I'm asking you to put aside your preconceptions and just spend a little time finding out for yourself. Google "masks and COVID" or "droplet spread of respiratory viruses" see what you get.

The general public has very little knowledge of epidemiology, immunology and the biology of viruses. They have been convinced masks are the way we defeat the virus. They get often get their information from equally mis/dis informed sources, who often have an agenda.

Our way out of this virus is not lockdowns & masks, but through population immunity, a vaccine, or natural genetic drift in the virus, or a combination of all three. We are seeing evidence in other countries such as Sweden, that our approach to the pandemic in the US may not have made much difference. If you believe the data, the US accounts for a disproportionate number of worldwide deaths.

In the meantime, here we are. Its now more a political/social issue than epidemiological/scientific. Authoritarian approaches like fines, people turning into "mask police" and disdainful attitudes towards people who don't go along seems representative of the times we live in.

In the meantime, we'll all wear our masks, my question is who is going to give the "all clear" and when?

[Michael Weber]

I found it interesting there was a reference a politicians “audit” in the post against the politicalization of information.

[Jim Becker]

Wonder how long would take for camara following mask warior to catch them with mask off.

There are current articles that show software being used in companies "as we speak" to insure employees use masks.

[mike stenson]

The military is also struggling with this, but for good reason, it's not likely being highly publicised, outside of the aircraft carrier incident that was heavily in the news awhile back.

Well, and the US Marines making Okinawa mad by causing an outbreak there.

It's really too bad that there are so many people, that no matter how often they're explained something refuse to listen to it. All because of something they once heard much earlier, that's been refuted heavily since.

[Brian Elfert]

There are current articles that show software being used in companies "as we speak" to insure employees use masks.

My employer is using kiosks that take temperature before employees are allowed to enter the building. The kiosks also detect if the person is wearing a face mask or not, but I don't know if the kiosks alert anyone if a face mask is not present. They do alert management if someone has a high temperature.

[Bill Dufour]

The aircraft carrier made a unscheduled port visit in Guam to evacuate and decomtaminate. After about one month of deciding what to do they sanitized the ship and put the crew back on. They took the crew off in a few days or less and evacuated the ship again. took about two months to get it right. Only one crew member killed. At least 1,400 tested positive before the navy stopped reporting that information. The captain lost his job and only the navy secretary resigned. His superior officers, who decided the virus was not a navy problem, have faced no discipline.
Sanitizing is not really hard just wait three days. Only the refrigerators and freezers have to be sanitized. Not sure about the air conditioning system.
They say the military always train for the last war. I suppose this means the next war will involve bacteriological warfare and not russian supported gurellea warfare.
Bil lD.

https://news.usni.org/2020/07/09/uss-theodore-roosevelt-returns-to-san-diego-following-deployment-interrupted-by-outbreak

[Stan Calow]

You hear about all the cases of covid in the city's, the hospitals,nursing homes, , the stores and all , but I haven't heard a word anywhere about the cases on our Military Bases. Have I just missed those reports or are they not saying how our Military has been affected.

Bert, the Worldometer website I look at every day shows approx 38,000 cases in the US military with 58 dead. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

But it wouldn't be surprising that this data was kept down for security reasons. Especially now that they've taken data collection out of CDC hands.

[Bert Kemp]

Yes I think they water it down some .

[Mike Goetzke]

Don’t be so judgmental.

Not saying don’t wear one, but don’t think a mask will protect you that much.

N95 are best, cloth masks are useless. Touching mask, re-using mask, adjusting mask are likely more risky than not wearing

We have a mandatory mask ordinance in effect in my county for 3 weeks yet we’ve had record # of cases since then.

IMO mask wearing is highly overrated.



COVID is primarily spread by contaminated surface/touching face.

Washing hands is your best prevention.

Wow - you could not be more incorrect! Where did you get so much misinformation?

[John K Jordan]

...Washing hands is your best prevention.

For me, staying away from people is the best prevention since the research indicates viruses are spread by more than contaminated surfaces. Fortunately, isolation is easier when retired and living on a farm out in the countryside than when living in town or going to work every day. Visitors don a mask when getting out of their car. I provide masks and hand sanitizer as needed.

When I go to various farm and hardware stores for feed and supplies there are sometimes customers not wearing masks. When another customer approaches with no mask I say nothing but make a detour down another isle until the coast is clear. I choose to not let their choice risk my health.

I do wash my hands a lot, especially after handling chickens, eggs, peacocks, manure, compost, poison ivy, fuel and grease,...

I read a farmer's suggestion for social distancing: rub fresh cow manure all over your hands. Everyone will stay away. No one will try to shake your hand. You probably will not touch your face.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...
When I go to various farm and hardware stores for feed and supplies there are sometimes customers not wearing masks. When another customer approaches with no mask I say nothing but make a detour down another isle until the coast is clear. I choose to not let their choice risk my health.

...

Well done. Sounds like you are being responsible for yourself and respectful of others.

...hmmmm... I'm sure I've heard that before...somewhere??

[Robert Engel]

Wow - you could not be more incorrect! Where did you get so much misinformation?
I don't believe I'm misinformed, sir.

From the Annals of Internal Medicine: "Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients." Article here (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342).

From Nature "Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks" Article here (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2) Interestingly one of the major difficulties in the study was actually recovering virus particles from the breath of infected people.

From the U of Minn Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy: "Data do not back cloth masks to limit COVID-19, experts say" Article here (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/data-do-not-back-cloth-masks-limit-covid-19-experts-say).

COVID gains entry through mucous membranes (eyes, nose, mouth) not just by inhaling aerosols. This is not disputable. Touching masks, re-using, washing hands, etc is simply common sense.

In contrast, here is what NPR reports in Face Mask Debates: Yes, Wearing Masks Help. Here's Why" Referring to the studies on face masks, here is a quote from an epidemiologist: "they were observational, not the gold standard of science, a randomized controlled trial, which would be very unethical in a pandemic" Compare that to the 3 articles I cited above.

You say I'm misinformed, but I would ask where do you get your information?

[Jim Koepke]

I don't believe I'm misinformed, sir.

From the Annals of Internal Medicine: "Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients." Article here (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342).

From Nature "Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks" Article here (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2) Interestingly one of the major difficulties in the study was actually recovering virus particles from the breath of infected people.

[edited for time]


Maybe not misinformed, maybe the information was misleading?

From the page of the first link:

439177

The article has been retracted. One comment on the reasons:


Just the fact that a reusable cotton mask was more effective than a manufactured surgical mask was news worthy by itself. Instead, the public was misled to believe the masks were totally ineffective.

A quote from the second link:


We detected coronavirus in respiratory droplets and aerosols in 3 of 10 (30%) and 4 of 10 (40%) of the samples collected without face masks, respectively, but did not detect any virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols collected from participants wearing face masks, this difference was significant in aerosols and showed a trend toward reduced detection in respiratory droplets (Table 1b).

It appears there is information in these links indicating the effectiveness of masks in preventing the spread of a disease.

After reading through two links and finding them non-supportive of a position, it was my choice to save my time by not going any further, hence the original was edited for time saving.

jtk

[Bob Turkovich]

From the U of Minn Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy: "Data do not back cloth masks to limit COVID-19, experts say" Article here (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/data-do-not-back-cloth-masks-limit-covid-19-experts-say).


It also appears the proponent of your third point has backed away from his original position...

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/commentary-my-views-cloth-face-coverings-public-preventing-covid-19

An excerpt from the link:


I support the wearing of cloth face coverings (masks) by the general public.
Stop citing CIDRAP and me as grounds to not wear masks, whether mandated or not.
Don't, however, use the wearing of cloth face coverings as an excuse to decrease other crucial, likely more effective, protective steps, like physical distancing
Also, don't use poorly conducted studies to support a contention that wearing cloth face coverings will drive the pandemic into the ground. But even if they reduce infection risk somewhat, wearing them can be important.

[Kev Williams]

I don't believe I'm misinformed, sir.

From the Annals of Internal Medicine: "Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients." Article here (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342).


That article has been retracted:

According to recommendations by the editors of Annals of Internal Medicine, we are retracting our article, “Effectiveness of Surgical and Cotton Masks in Blocking SARS-CoV-2. A Controlled Comparison in 4 Patients,” which was published at Annals.org (http://www.annals.org) on 6 April 2020 (1 (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/L20-0745#r1-L200745)).
We had not fully recognized the concept of limit of detection (LOD) of the in-house reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction used in the study (2.63 log copies/mL), and we regret our failure to express the values below LOD as “<LOD (value).” The LOD is a statistical measure of the lowest quantity of the analyte that can be distinguished from the absence of that analyte. Therefore, values below the LOD are unreliable and our findings are uninterpretable. Reader comments raised this issue after publication. We proposed correcting the reported data with new experimental data from additional patients, but the editors requested retraction.




I've said this before: A typical screen door will stop up to 80% of air flow. When it comes to this virus, ANY barrier is better than NO barrier IMO...

[Bert Kemp]

I agree Kev any mask is better then nothing, it will at least shorten the distance the droplets will travel.
That article has been retracted:


I've said this before: A typical screen door will stop up to 80% of air flow. When it comes to this virus, ANY barrier is better than NO barrier IMO...

[Nicholas Lawrence]

It also appears the proponent of your third point has backed away from his original position...

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/commentary-my-views-cloth-face-coverings-public-preventing-covid-19

An excerpt from the link:


I support the wearing of cloth face coverings (masks) by the general public.
Stop citing CIDRAP and me as grounds to not wear masks, whether mandated or not.
Don't, however, use the wearing of cloth face coverings as an excuse to decrease other crucial, likely more effective, protective steps, like physical distancing
Also, don't use poorly conducted studies to support a contention that wearing cloth face coverings will drive the pandemic into the ground. But even if they reduce infection risk somewhat, wearing them can be important.



Also from the link:

"These concerns [concerns that CDC guidance about masks is misleading] remain true today, particularly after CDC leadership made the unfortunate statement that the US epidemic could be driven to the ground if everyone wore face coverings for the next 4 to 6 weeks (https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1282784165356871680). If this were true, why do we need a vaccine to end this pandemic? Just "mask our way" to control. When put into this context, it's obvious how the CDC statement is unrealistic and misleading."

[Malcolm McLeod]

... A typical screen door* will stop up to 80% of air flow...

...until the differential pressure increases such that it overcomes the resistance (drag) of the screen. Then flow is restored and the screen is the approximate equivalent of, well ...nothing!

(* - A really poor analogy to breathing - IMHO.)

[Bert Kemp]

...until the differential pressure increases such that it overcomes the resistance (drag) of the screen. Then flow is restored and the screen is the approximate equivalent of, well ...nothing!

(* - A really poor analogy to breathing - IMHO.)


what does this mean exactly ?:confused::rolleyes:

[Robert Engel]

Perfectly acceptable scientific studies retracted by an editorial board, then fit into a narrative doesn't make negate their conclusions.

As a health care professional I've tried to present some information from reputable scientific journals.

If you choose to reject them because an editorial board pulled the article for political reasons, that is your prerogative.

Meanwhile, COVID is following its biological course, masks or not.

Take a look at Sweden.

Now pay attention to New Zealand and you'll see why lockdowns absolutely do not work.

COVID is a political disease and this forum proves it.

I'm done with you guys :)

[Jim Koepke]

...until the differential pressure increases such that it overcomes the resistance (drag) of the screen. Then flow is restored and the screen is the approximate equivalent of, well ...nothing!

(* - A really poor analogy to breathing - IMHO.)


what does this mean exactly ?:confused::rolleyes:

It means don't expect a screen door to hold back a hurricane or tornado. :eek:

jtk

[Bert Kemp]

It means don't expect a screen door to hold back a hurricane or tornado. :eek:

jtk


Well I tell ya I have tried putting a box fan in my bedroom window that is screened to cool me off at night. It doesn't work, very little is air drawn thru the screen no matter how long I leave it there

[Jim Koepke]

Perfectly acceptable scientific studies retracted by an editorial board, then fit into a narrative doesn't make negate their conclusions.

As a health care professional I've tried to present some information from reputable scientific journals.

If you choose to reject them because an editorial board pulled the article for political reasons, that is your prerogative.

Meanwhile, COVID is following its biological course, masks or not.

Take a look at Sweden.

Now pay attention to New Zealand and you'll see why lockdowns absolutely do not work.

COVID is a political disease and this forum proves it.

I'm done with you guys :)

The first article wasn't "pulled" (it is still available) for political reasons. It was "retracted" because it was found to be misleading.

Looking at Sweden and New Zealand indicates social habits in Sweden have been modified due to the pandemic without government mandates:


"Swedes in general have changed their behavior to a great extent during the pandemic and the practice of social distancing as well as physical distancing in public places and at work has been widespread," said Maria Furberg, MD, PhD, an infectious diseases expert at Umea University Hospital in northeastern Sweden.

"During the months of March to early June, all shops were practically empty, people stopped dining with friends, and families stopped seeing even their closest relatives," Furberg told MedPage Today. "A lock-down could not have been more effective. Handwashing, excessive use of hand sanitizers, and staying home at the first sign of a cold became the new normal very quickly."

From > https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87812

This sounds like a well educated population without political agendas getting in the way of public health.

New Zealand has an unexpected outbreak of so far less than 20 cases of infection. On August 16 Sweden recorded 60 new cases.


New Zealand 2020 population is estimated at 4,822,233 people at mid year according to UN data.

Sweden 2020 population is estimated at 10,099,265 people at mid year according to UN data.

Sweden has approximately twice the population of New Zealand yet the infection rate has a much wider spread:

439185

Those are from Google with searches on > covid new zealand cases today < & > covid sweden cases today <

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

This sounds like a well educated population without political agendas getting in the way of public health.


A lot of the statistics that get thrown around are misleading because they do not account for population.

As of 30 seconds ago, Sweden has a death rate of 568.3/million. The U.S. has a death rate of 529.8/million.

Sweden's confirmed case fatality rate is 6.8%. The U.S. is at 3.1%.

Italy, France, U.K are all over 12%. Germany is at 4.11%

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/coronavirus/

[eugene thomas]

since wisconsin requires mask now i wear when out and about. if others dont. thats their business. if not like seeing mask breakers then stay home.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Well I tell ya I have tried putting a box fan in my bedroom window that is screened to cool me off at night. It doesn't work, very little is air drawn thru the screen no matter how long I leave it there

Fairly sure this is not time-dependent. If it was, a cheap folding hand fan would totally clean your shop - - if only you operated it long enough.;)

Try slipping a 5Hp 3600 rpm motor onto your box fan. That might get you the differential pressure required to overcome resistance of the screen (= flow). Sleep tight. Sleep cool.:cool: Bring ear plugs.

Just in case the analogy is still hanging out there perilously and incomprehensibly, this 5Hp is a bit like breathing. You inhale or exhale hard enough to overcome the resistance of a mask - or the wifey's hand trying to smother you at night.:eek:

I'll let y'all debate exactly what and how much benefit the masks provide. :confused:

[Brian Elfert]

since wisconsin requires mask now i wear when out and about. if others dont. thats their business. if not like seeing mask breakers then stay home.

How about those who won't wear a mask like the state requires stay home instead? It doesn't bother me so much if you choose not to wear a mask when they are not required by state order. It really bothers me when you chose to flaunt a state order.

I live in Minnesota where the state requires masks in public. I was at a store the other day and a whole family walked by without masks on. I don't know how they got by the door guard, but I suspect they took the masks off once they got in the door. Most law enforcement agencies won't enforce the mask order even though there are penalties for not wearing masks.

[lowell holmes]

I thought the mask protects the wearer as well as others. Get over it, it will pass.