Should I learn Metric now? Beginning woodworker help.

[Jon Steffen]

I would say i'm a beginner of "fine woodworking", but i've been building stuff for 20 years. Gazeebo Eagle Scout project, deer stands, garage storage, fences, car ports, remove load bearing wall.....

I'm in Wisconsin USA and learned on the imperial system, but i'm wondering if I should start measuring things and using tools in Metric.

Any of you Americans make the switch and wish you did sooner?

Any not so obvious reasons why I should not and just stick to Imperial?

Is Metric more accurate or precise?

[Jamie Buxton]

There's one more possibility: decimal inches. You get to use the decimal system, which is way better than fractions. And you get to use inches, which you and your suppliers both understand.

American machinists have been using decimal inches since the eighteenth century. That's why we have things like 45 and 22 caliber bullets -- that's .45" and .22".

[Jim Matthews]

I measure parts off each other, to assure best fit.

Any measuring system that uses a tape measure, yard (or meter) stick or laser range finder is subject to transposition errors.

Marking pieces in place reduces such errors.

I favor a marking knife and double square for layout.

[Jon Steffen]

There's one more possibility: decimal inches. You get to use the decimal system, which is way better than fractions. And you get to use inches, which you and your suppliers both understand.

American machinists have been using decimal inches since the eighteenth century. That's why we have things like 45 and 22 caliber bullets -- that's .45" and .22".
didn't know about that.
i'll have to see if incra, or the table saw I might get has rulers like that. Maybe wixey has a digital fence that also does inch-decimel. I feel like they would.

[David Bassett]

Plenty of outstanding work done in both systems. I don't think learning metric would hurt you in anyway either. (I.e. become "bilingual".)

That said woodworking generally doesn't need high precision, just like parts matching with high accuracy. How you achieve this depends how you are working. E.g: Neander's will scribe lines from part or space to the next stock to be cut. A power tool user will learn to set the table saw fence and cut all like parts without moving it. (Derek Cohen extensive posts documenting his builds where you can see this in practice. He does a lot of handwork, but also uses power tools. Plus he works in metric and it's never interfered with understanding what he's doing.)

I'd guess, working in the US, you'll end up choosing inches & fractions because so many of our supplies are imperial and marked that way.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I reach my limit with inches when I run into the need to take half of 23-11/16. Then I tend to convert using the calculator on my phone and maybe convert back to inches if need be.

Also, when I'm checking the extension of a plane iron from an Eclipse jig, I use mm.

[Warren Wilson]

It’s odd. As a old Canadian I was born in the British Imperial system with inches and gallons and bushels and pecks, but everything has been meters and litres and kilometres for many decades and I have adapted in some areas and not in others. The metric system just makes sense any time you are calculating. Gas mileage, for instance, ratios, conversions. But I have continued to use inches for woodworking because for the most part it is measurement rather than calculation and I’m mentally lazy. Though if I have to divide 2’ 7 7/16” into thirds, I’d reach for my metric measuring tape!

It doesn’t have to be an either-or. It’s trivial to just use another scale — maybe even fun to try: but maybe not buy the Starrett rules until you’re sure. :)

[Frank Martin]

I grew up with the metric system. When I started woodworking (about 18 yrs ago) I pretty much had to use the imperial system because table saw fence and some of the other common scales were all imperial. Now I use a euro combo machine that has both scales. If I had not already invested into the imperial system, I would certainly switch to metric. May still do one day.

[David Bassett]

I reach my limit with inches when I run into the need to take half of 23-11/16....

Dividing in half is one thing that works pretty well with fractional inches. (23-11/16 / 2 = 11-16/32 + 11/32 = 11-27/32.)

Try dividing something into thirds. (Get the calculator out, convert to decimal inches, divide, and then try to find a fractional inch equivalent that isn't ridiculous, or...)

Use the "old fashioned" way: get the dividers out, step it off, and don't worry about what the value is!

[Josh Molaver]

When I started woodworking about 10 years ago I made the decision to go metric (having grown up in the US / imperial) - took a little getting used to but I am glad I did l, and can convert back and forth and work in either system now.

[roger wiegand]

Grew up in Imperial, went into science and learned about metric, concluded that we were insane for not having adopted it back in 1790. I lived with a mixed shop for a long time and just last year went through and did the full metric conversion-- mostly involving putting new sticky-back tapes where needed and buying a couple more rules and measuring tapes (the 5.5 m tapes from Tajima are great!) I still have a few things that I won't replace, like a good set of inch Forstner bits. and lots of stuff where it doesn't matter.

The one thing to avoid at all costs is doing conversions. That will kill your accuracy and drive you crazy. Just learn what a centimeter looks like and think in those terms. It's awkward at first and then becomes second nature. It does tend to drive my wife crazy when we're cooking because I can eyeball 500 g of flour or 100 g of butter to within a couple percent but can't for the life of me tell her how many cups or furlongs or whatever that might be.

[Christopher Giles]

Another vote for decimal inches. I make a living at woodworking, and it is the quickest and most precise for my shop.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I made the switch from Imperial to Metric as my 2020 New Years resolution.

My biggest obstacle was re-buying some tools, that I like to use, in Metric. To convert, I estimate I spent around $500 in the process.

I printed and laminated a conversion sheet, that hangs on a wall, so I can always quick reference back to that if necessary.

After 6 months, I'm just starting to be able guesstimate things in millimeters, say like I know I need something 64", I have to go to my chart instead of just to my metric tape measure.

Neither method is more accurate than the other, but I think it's less likely to make mistake on metric where the divisions are fewer, i.e. my rulers, tape measures are only marked in mm and cm, whereas, my rulers some are 1/10, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, etc.

There are times I still revert back, but that's more when I'm doing construction type stuff.

You don't loose anything by training yourself to use metric, you just need to be consistent when you start until you are comfortable with it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Decimal inches are good for precise. Using a standard dial caliper is nice. Tried metric for a while just for fun, but found that I was just converting it all back to imperial when I was thinking something through. Didn't make anything easier so decided the experiment was over. Inches and fractions work just fine for most of my work.

[Rod Sheridan]

I went metric in woodworking decades ago.

It's easier than fractions, plywood thickness is metric and most of the tooling in the world is metric.

Designing in metric is far easier, and nobody can tell whether the leg is 50mm or 2" thick. That's the secret, don't convert your design from Imperial to metric.

Make the legs 50mm thick, plane boards to 20mm thick not 3/4".

Have fun, it's worth converting.

Regards, Rod.

[Curt Harms]

I'd guess, working in the US, you'll end up choosing inches & fractions because so many of our supplies are imperial and marked that way.

I think that's the biggest reason to use inches and fractions. If I lived in a country that had been metric my entire life I'm sure I'd find Imperial measurements odd and foreign. As mentioned, calculations are far simpler in metric than inches and fractions.

[David Buchhauser]

I would say i'm a beginner of "fine woodworking", but i've been building stuff for 20 years. Gazeebo Eagle Scout project, deer stands, garage storage, fences, car ports, remove load bearing wall.....

I'm in Wisconsin USA and learned on the imperial system, but i'm wondering if I should start measuring things and using tools in Metric.

Any of you Americans make the switch and wish you did sooner?

Any not so obvious reasons why I should not and just stick to Imperial?

Is Metric more accurate or precise?

I have not "switched" to metric, although I use it when the occasion requires. But I generally convert metric to inches. For carpentry and other not critical tasks, I work in "Imperial" fractional units. But for machining and other precision tasks, I prefer to work in decimal inches (i.e. 0.001", 0.0001", etc.). Much like Kph, I find Mph easier to understand, since that is what I grew up with.
David

[Jeff Ranck]

It really doesn't matter which system you choose. You can work in either and I'm not one that personally believes one is qualitatively "better" than the other. The best advice I received on the topic was choose a system and stick with it and buy all your tools with the appropriate scale. For example, if you choose metric, then when you buy a set of chisels, buy metric. I echo the advice from Roger to avoid a mixed shop at all costs.

[Jim Becker]

This is a VERY subjective thing. There are folks who waive silver crosses at the idea of using metric and there are those like myself that have dived into it as fully as possible. I started using metric in my shop two years ago and that's my personal "standard" for all projects that do not require using Imperial (some client projects) or are more practical using Imperial, such as some home improvement tasks. I find it far easier to work in MM. And yes, I not only wish I would have done it sooner, but I also wish the US would have followed through with making it "the public standard" decades ago. Most industry switched a long time ago; many materials we buy are actually metric but re-"branded" to inches/feet and with little exception, the rest of the world generally uses metric. So we in the US sit here "monkey in the middle" with both systems and mixing them can be "fun"...just ask NASA about that. ;)

As to accuracy, it does not matter what measuring system you use relative to accuracy. Accuracy is on you, not the measuring system.

Most of my measuring devices are duel-scale so I can operate in metric while still using Imperial where I need to without having completely separate measuring tools.

[Jim Becker]

I'd guess, working in the US, you'll end up choosing inches & fractions because so many of our supplies are imperial and marked that way.

The thing is...a lot of what we buy in materials are metric underneath, but remarked in inches for the convenience of the retail trade. Plywood is a very good example. It's been metric for a very long time. Screws and bolts in much of the products we buy are metric. Etc. As I noted above...we're sitting in the middle with both systems currently overlaying each other.

[Jeff Ranck]

... but I also wish the US would have followed through with making it "the public standard" decades ago. Most industry switched a long time ago; many materials we buy are actually metric but re-"branded" to inches/feet and with little exception, the rest of the world generally uses metric. So we in the US sit here "monkey in the middle" with both systems ...

But if we switched, we'd have to leave the other holdouts that still use imperial units, our friends in Myanmar, and Liberia. :)

[Frank Pratt]

I switch to fully metric about a year ago and it was a painless transition. I like it much better than working in Imperial.

[John Stankus]

I would say i'm a beginner of "fine woodworking", but i've been building stuff for 20 years. Gazeebo Eagle Scout project, deer stands, garage storage, fences, car ports, remove load bearing wall.....

I'm in Wisconsin USA and learned on the imperial system, but i'm wondering if I should start measuring things and using tools in Metric.

Any of you Americans make the switch and wish you did sooner?

Any not so obvious reasons why I should not and just stick to Imperial?

Is Metric more accurate or precise?

Precision and accuracy are independent of measuring system.
Precision is how repeatable your measurement (think how tight of a grouping is on a target).
Accuracy is how close you are to the "actual" value (think how close you are to the bullseye on a target).
You can be highly precise and accurate with a story stick with no units at all.

The inch is actually defined in terms of the metric units. The original inch was defined as three well dried barley corns from the center laid end to end, but is now defined at 25.4 mm exactly. Actually, all the US standard lengths have been based upon metric standards since the middle of the 1800s

National Bureau of Standards (now NIST) Weights and Measures Standards of the United States- A brief history
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735.pdf

John

[Patrick Kane]

It's a bit of a pain either way you go for the Americans in the group. I use imperial, but my Euro tools all have metric scales. I have a conversion table hanging in the shop, but you eventually memorize the MM equivalents for common fractions. Also, if you know 25.4mm to an inch, then you know 1/2" is right in the 12.75-13mm range, and 1/4" is around 6mm etc. I cant think of a time where i ever measured something in metric over 100mm. I like the metric system, but i dont like having to relearn 32 years of using imperial, about $1000+ in squares, rules etc, and then having to tell my lumber yard i need two cubic metres of 50mm walnut that is atleast 275cm long. This lumberyard is in the part of Pennsyltucky where a fella could get shot for saying something like that.

Unfortunately, I stick to imperial, because the overwhelming current flows in that direction. If you want to work in metric, good on ya, but you wont be working strictly in metric. Unless you saw and dry your own lumber, the second you go to buy lumber, you will order in Board Feet, specify thickness in quarters of an inch, and specify length in feet.

[Jamie Buxton]

The thing is...a lot of what we buy in materials are metric underneath, but remarked in inches for the convenience of the retail trade. Plywood is a very good example. It's been metric for a very long time....

The "three quarter inch" plywood I get is pretty consistently .72" thick. That's 18.3mm. I'd say it is unclear whether it is metric or imperial. (My guess is that it is 3/4", with all the tolerance taken to the shy side.) And the "quarter inch" plywood now runs .21" or so. That's 5.3mm. Again, not obvious what the underlying system is.

[roger wiegand]

Folks who think that our supplies etc come in English units are the ones who are confused when their "3/4"" plywood doesn't fit in the slot cut by their 3/4" router bit.

Decimal inches would be great if there were 10 decimal inches in a foot, but as far as I know there are not, or at least I've never seen such a ruler.

The size of the underlying unit is not important for woodworking purposes, though it is very convenient that a milliliter is cubic centimeter of water, which at 4 deg weighs one gram (and is close enough at other temperatures to make no practical difference for most things). I find it way easier to do the multiplication to make up a small amount of shellac knowing for a 2 lb cut I want 240 mg/ml (or 24 g/100 ml) than converting gallons to quarts, cups, or ounces and pounds to (confusingly also, but different) ounces.

[Jamie Buxton]

.. Decimal inches would be great if there were 10 decimal inches in a foot, but as far as I know there are not, or at least I've never seen such a ruler...

You'd be using decimal inches. Feet are irrelevant.

[glenn bradley]

We stubborn U.S. folks have failed a few attempts to move to metric, some with significant expenditures of our tax dollars. I wish we had. Fortunately I picked up enough to be fairly functional during the 60's and 70's when the public schools I went to survived the attempts to move the masses to this more sensible measurement system. Kitchen-n-Bath stuff has been metric for years. A lot of folks have moved that way or even started there.

I worked I.T. for nearly 40 years and after practically dreaming in binary, octal and hex for decades I find imperial very relaxing. Maybe it triggers a different part of my brain but knowing that the next step in 64th's up from 17/64 is 9/32 and then 19/64 seems quite normal to me. The computer keyboard or guitar neck look senseless to those who do not use them but, to those who do, they read like a book. Imperial measurements are no different. Maybe its a child-o-the-50's kinda thing ;-)

[Bob Hinden]

I use both for a couple of reasons. Some of my tools have imperial scales, some have metric, some have both. For projects like making cabinets, metric is helpful given if using the 32mm systems. I have measuring tools in both systems.

A few things I have learned:

When using metric, just use millimeters (mm), not centimeters. Mixing them leads to errors, avoid measuring tools that aren't mm.

Doing arithmetic with imperial fractions is challenging, I have found that programs like excel will do calculations using fractions quite well.

Except for when using 32mm hardware and/or fitting drawer slides, most of the time, it's more important to make cuts repeatable than an exact number.

[roger wiegand]

You'd be using decimal inches. Feet are irrelevant.

Not when I need to find a third of a measurement given as "2 ft 6-7/8 inches.

[David Bassett]

Not when I need to find a third of a measurement given as "2 ft 6-7/8 inches.

(Tried. Can't resist the chance to smart off!)

That's actually pretty easy: 10-7/24". Oh, you wanted the same fractions as on your ruler? ;)

Seriously, if we measure in fractional inches we're stuck with this problem, but there are alternatives. I've barely scratched the surface of the mathless geometry George Walker & Jim Tolpin teach, (in Hand & Eye, etc & on their blog,) but almost any layout problem can be solved with the right arcs and intersections and *NO* *Math*.

[Brian Holcombe]

Easy math to do in your head just double both numbers until it’s easily divisible by three. If that doesn’t work, raise it from .875 to .876 then divide by three and it is 10.292”.

I prefer decimal inches and fractional inched for building stuff.

[roger wiegand]

I understand that the math isn't hard, and I can still mostly do it without reaching for a pencil (it was really beaten into me as a child) but working in fractions is both more prone to error and (to me) less obvious when an error has been made. Given the choice I use a story stick and simple geometry, doing arithmetic increases the opportunity for error a lot. If I have to use a ruler or tape my brain works better with decimal rather than fractional values. My errors that way tend to be by a factor of 10 and easier to spot.

[Jamie Buxton]

...10 decimal inches in a foot, but as far as I know there are not, or at least I've never seen such a ruler...

Decimal foot tapes do exist. That is, they show measurements like 5.7 feet. For instance https://www.ustape.com/catalog/engineers-tapes/. I've also seen 100 ft tapes marked that way.

[mike stenson]

To be honest, as long as you're always using the same measuring device it doesn't matter. Metric IMO is generally much easier, but I grew up with it.

Then again, I don't like measurement as it tends to just induce errors anyway.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

No matter what you do, you will probably need to do a mixed usage because you will need both english and metrix sockets; for example.

The most important bit is probably that you decide now so that you are certain to invest in tools marked appropriately; for example:



tape measures
Measuring tape on your table saw
chisels (imperial or metrix)


to name a few!

[Rod Sheridan]

I believe the plywood standards specify standard metric dimensions such as 19, 12, 6 etc which are then sanded...Rod

[Dave Mills]

Completely out of curiosity, what is the comparable measure to "board feet" in metric countries? Is wood sold by the "board meter" or some such thing?

[Jon Steffen]

Dividing in half is one thing that works pretty well with fractional inches. (23-11/16 / 2 = 11-16/32 + 11/32 = 11-27/32.)

Yeah, i've actually been using a combination of this and decimel inches when my brain hurts. Most of what I build is not that critical. I do a combination of rough measuring, then bringing the piece to its final resting place and transfer a mark onto it, or using something as a reference (story stick) to make a repeatable part.

I've been debating with myself if I can fully get away from Imperial if I switch to Metric or not. Or will I just convert everything I read in metric back into Imperial in my head like I use to do with most Spanish speaking.

I took 4 years of spanish and whenever I spoke, I would think of it in english, translate in my brain to spanish, then speak it in spanish. The reverse for hearing spanish.

I was never bilingual because I was never imersed in it. If I imerse myself in Metric, maybe I won't have to convert back to Imperial.

There's lots of great dialoge on here.

Trouble with decimel inches, I don't see it as a scale on most fences, and while tape measures do come in Decimel Inches, they're not very common.



It really doesn't matter which system you choose. You can work in either and I'm not one that personally believes one is qualitatively "better" than the other. The best advice I received on the topic was choose a system and stick with it and buy all your tools with the appropriate scale. For example, if you choose metric, then when you buy a set of chisels, buy metric. I echo the advice from Roger to avoid a mixed shop at all costs.
This is the main reason why i'm asking. Going to be buying some tools in the coming months, Don't want to buy more Imperial if I am going to make the switch. I probably only have a few hundred dollars wrapped up in stuff that I would want to replace.


Precision and accuracy are independent of measuring system.
Precision is how repeatable your measurement (think how tight of a grouping is on a target).
Accuracy is how close you are to the "actual" value (think how close you are to the bullseye on a target).
You can be highly precise and accurate with a story stick with no units at all.

The inch is actually defined in terms of the metric units. The original inch was defined as three well dried barley corns from the center laid end to end, but is now defined at 25.4 mm exactly. Actually, all the US standard lengths have been based upon metric standards since the middle of the 1800s

National Bureau of Standards (now NIST) Weights and Measures Standards of the United States- A brief history
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735.pdf

John
The Inch being 25.4mm is rather funny. Maybe it won't be too hard to make the change afterall.
thanks for the info about precision/accuracy



No matter what you do, you will probably need to do a mixed usage because you will need both english and metrix sockets; for example.

The most important bit is probably that you decide now so that you are certain to invest in tools marked appropriately; for example:



tape measures
Measuring tape on your table saw
chisels (imperial or metrix)


to name a few!

I think I might invest in a Metric tape measure and next project I build, just use that and see how things go. I don't have a ton of router bits, drill bits that I'd need to replace.

Are dado widths measured in both imperial and metric? Or do you actually make a 1/2" wide dado and then the slightly thinner 1/2" plywood (not actually 1/2" thick) just fit a little loose?

[Jon Steffen]

Oh, one more question, when i asked about precision and accuracy, what I was getting at, was that 1/32 of an inch is roughly 0.79mm. So if the one camp is measuring things down to 1/32" increments, won't they be more accurate than the camp that measures in 1mm increments, taking out story sticks from the process?

Example, you can get an incra LS positioner with either 1/32" spacing on the lead screw or 1mm spacing. in 4 inches you have 101 (1mm) Metric units, or 128 (1/32") Imperial units. Do you have more control with the imperial setup here?

However, I don't know many tape measures that show 1/32" marks past the first foot (guess) and only show 1/16" past this point, but looking at several online, they do show every MM. So in this example, the 1/16" is roughly 1.58mm. So the MM ruler has higher resolution ( i think that's the right word). 1/32" also seems SO SMALL and tight on a measure, maybe 1mm fits nicely between 1/16" and 1/32"?

[Jim Dwight]

Jon,

I think you are over thinking this. I work in Imperial whenever possible because I can easily visualize what 4 inches is. Or 70 inches. Or 5 feet 10 inches. If I were to switch to metric (which will not happen), I would have to learn this all over. I do not see any benefit worth that transition.

If you can visualize equally well in both systems, it comes down to just preference and possibly somewhat the tools you like. If the tools you prefer come out of Europe, you may want to go metric. It will be easier. If you prefer tools from U. S. suppliers, you may want to use Imperial.

I can remember 1 inch equals about 25.4 mm. But I do not know that the 6mm cutter in my domino is about 1/4 inch without doing the conversion to inches or looking at it. 6mm doesn't mean anything to me. 1/4 inch does. But it doesn't really impact me to make a conversion like this for his tool.

I agree completely with the other comments that it does not affect the quality of your work to use either system. Some things are easier in Imperial and others easier in metric but great work is done using both systems. My work has improved from things like using stops instead of trying to cut to marks when possible (makes duplicates much closer to the same). And making parts to fit with other parts already made (to avoid small errors adding up). I am still fairly early in my domino usage but I believe it makes mortise and tenon joints enough easier and quicker it is worth putting up with the metric side of it. But you need a way that works for you to make standard joints like mortise and tenon, rabbets, dados, and probably dovetails. Those things will improve your work. Using metric instead of imperial or vice versa will not by itself improve your skills or results.

[Jon Steffen]

Jon,

I think you are over thinking this. I work in Imperial whenever possible because I can easily visualize what 4 inches is. Or 70 inches. Or 5 feet 10 inches. If I were to switch to metric (which will not happen), I would have to learn this all over. I do not see any benefit worth that transition.

If you can visualize equally well in both systems, it comes down to just preference and possibly somewhat the tools you like. If the tools you prefer come out of Europe, you may want to go metric. It will be easier. If you prefer tools from U. S. suppliers, you may want to use Imperial.

I can remember 1 inch equals about 25.4 mm. But I do not know that the 6mm cutter in my domino is about 1/4 inch without doing the conversion to inches or looking at it. 6mm doesn't mean anything to me. 1/4 inch does. But it doesn't really impact me to make a conversion like this for his tool.

I agree completely with the other comments that it does not affect the quality of your work to use either system. Some things are easier in Imperial and others easier in metric but great work is done using both systems. My work has improved from things like using stops instead of trying to cut to marks when possible (makes duplicates much closer to the same). And making parts to fit with other parts already made (to avoid small errors adding up). I am still fairly early in my domino usage but I believe it makes mortise and tenon joints enough easier and quicker it is worth putting up with the metric side of it. But you need a way that works for you to make standard joints like mortise and tenon, rabbets, dados, and probably dovetails. Those things will improve your work. Using metric instead of imperial or vice versa will not by itself improve your skills or results.
I'm overthinking it on purpose. There's pros/cons, advantages /disadvantages, opinions on everything. Wood workers thousands of years ago made fantastic things, just trying to figure out which tips the scale for me.

[Andrew Seemann]

I used both metric and imperial as a machinist. Imperial was my preference simply because most of our tooling where I worked was imperial, but I had some metric that I used and it worked fine when I needed it. Back then I could do the conversions in my head.

For woodworking, I guess I always found metric to be kind of clumsy. The mm and cm seem too small, and meters too big. Since furniture is usually human scaled, measurement based on human scale (inches, cubits, feet) seem to have a convenient correlation to what you are making. I know you can do the same in metric and all the metric people will attack this as backwards and simplistic, but it works that way for me. It is possible that if I grew up in metric I would think that imperial was clumsy too.

[Jim Becker]

Oh, one more question, when i asked about precision and accuracy, what I was getting at, was that 1/32 of an inch is roughly 0.79mm. So if the one camp is measuring things down to 1/32" increments, won't they be more accurate than the camp that measures in 1mm increments, taking out story sticks from the process?

Jon, I generally measure to a half mil but the "detail" end of my rules breaks it down further if necessary. While it's good to have a decent metric tape measure for longer needs, woodworking projects benefit greatly from using metal rules for most measuring. Tapes can sometimes be less accurate over their length. (But even rules need to be checked, especially if they are different brands mixed) I have a set of dual scale rules from Lee Valley (Woodcraft also has them), a digital caliper and I retrofitted my Starrett combo square and smaller square with metric rules. BTW, story sticks are a really great way to work with consistency. I also tend to use fixed dimensions for the larger assembly and then measure intermediate components directly off that assembly so that they are exact...no scale needed.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I went metric in woodworking decades ago.

It's easier than fractions, plywood thickness is metric and most of the tooling in the world is metric.

Designing in metric is far easier, and nobody can tell whether the leg is 50mm or 2" thick. That's the secret, don't convert your design from Imperial to metric.

Make the legs 50mm thick, plane boards to 20mm thick not 3/4".

Have fun, it's worth converting.

Regards, Rod.

That advice from Rod probably is the key point to get a positive experience on adoption of the metric system coming from imperial one. I knew people.that got frustrated in the process just trying mathematical conversion.

I live in a "metric" country. I prefer to work with metric only as I do most of the time but I am comfortable to work with decimal inches or even fractional (although it is odd IMO).

Curiously I made a general inventory check in my router bits today accordingly to their chuck size: 1/8in, 6mm, 1/4in, 8mm (actually my main size), 12mm and 1/2in. Crazy.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, I mill to 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 mm commonly now. Nice round numbers.

[Jon Steffen]

Jon, I generally measure to a half mil but the "detail" end of my rules breaks it down further if necessary. While it's good to have a decent metric tape measure for longer needs, woodworking projects benefit greatly from using metal rules for most measuring. Tapes can sometimes be less accurate over their length. (But even rules need to be checked, especially if they are different brands mixed) I have a set of dual scale rules from Lee Valley (Woodcraft also has them), a digital caliper and I retrofitted my Starrett combo square and smaller square with metric rules. BTW, story sticks are a really great way to work with consistency. I also tend to use fixed dimensions for the larger assembly and then measure intermediate components directly off that assembly so that they are exact...no scale needed.

I've got a nice set of incra imperial rulers, not sure what I paid for them, but I'd certainly replace those.

What brand caliper, is it wixey?

[Clifford McGuire]

Two months ago I downloaded a measured drawing from the UK. The measurements were metric, so I thought I'd give it a try. I found it sooooo much easier to use than Imperial. It just makes more sense, and (for me) 1mm as the smallest unit is about right for the kind of work I do.

I have enough measuring tools with metric....except the adhesive rulers on my tablesaw and bandsaw.

[Jon Steffen]

That advice from Rod probably is the key point to get a positive experience on adoption of the metric system coming from imperial one. I knew people.that got frustrated in the process just trying mathematical conversion.

I live in a "metric" country. I prefer to work with metric only as I do most of the time but I am comfortable to work with decimal inches or even fractional (although it is odd IMO).

Curiously I made a general inventory check in my router bits today accordingly to their chuck size: 1/8in, 6mm, 1/4in, 8mm (actually my main size), 12mm and 1/2in. Crazy.
Are you saying those are all the different diameters of the bits shanks?

Am I right in assuming just like you can buy a 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" straight bit, you can also buy 6mm, 12mm, 18mm straight bits?

Routers and bits are one thing I don't own yet.

[ChrisA Edwards]

One of the things I converted, going from Imperial to Metric, was my Incra TS-LS Positioner. I initially bought it in Imperial and bought the retrofit kit about 18 months later. Here's a video of me doing the conversion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkyRYVj6aL0

Yes the increments are slightly finer on the 1/32" Imperial system, but when I'm cutting on the table saw, really do I try and make something with an initial size that needs a partial millimeter. So if it needs to be 405mm, that's where my fence gets set.

But as you know, one of the nice things about the Incra, you can dial in or out, thousandths of an inch or 1/10's of a millimeter, which for wood, on a tablesaw gets you there.

As part of my metric conversion, I bought a 300mm, 600mm and 1000mm steel rulers from Amazon. I like these as they have very easy to read markings and have conversion tables on the rear.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/.highres/ShimwaRuler2_zps1j0xnfpf.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/.highres/ShinwaRuler_zpsaqyyueps.jpg

For tape measures, I use a FastCap flat metric unit. Again the scale is very easy to read.

I bought an iGaging digital caliper when I first started my serious hobby woodworking, about 5 years ago. It was about $30 and I've not really found any real inaccuracy issues with it to date.

[Jeff Ranck]

Not when I need to find a third of a measurement given as "2 ft 6-7/8 inches.

But see, I never use math to do this. I use dividers. Either that or I hold a scale at an angle so there is an appropriate number if divisions and pick the appropriate whole division. I was thinking that in my woodworking, I rarely use math. I mostly use alternative layout methods.

[Jeff Ranck]

Easy math to do in your head just double both numbers until it’s easily divisible by three. If that doesn’t work, raise it from .875 to .876 then divide by three and it is 10.292”.

I prefer decimal inches and fractional inched for building stuff.

For those who use decimal inches, where do you find a scale in decimal inches? The only such thing I've ever seen is my dad had an old pipe layer's tape that was in decimal feet.

[Jon Steffen]

One of the things I converted, going from Imperial to Metric, was my Incra TS-LS Positioner. I initially bought it in Imperial and bought the retrofit kit about 18 months later. Here's a video of me doing the conversion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkyRYVj6aL0

Yes the increments are slightly finer on the 1/32" Imperial system, but when I'm cutting on the table saw, really do I try and make something with an initial size that needs a partial millimeter. So if it needs to be 405mm, that's where my fence gets set.

But as you know, one of the nice things about the Incra, you can dial in or out, thousandths of an inch or 1/10's of a millimeter, which for wood, on a tablesaw gets you there.

As part of my metric conversion, I bought a 300mm, 600mm and 1000mm steel rulers from Amazon. I like these as they have very easy to read markings and have conversion tables on the rear.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/.highres/ShimwaRuler2_zps1j0xnfpf.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/.highres/ShinwaRuler_zpsaqyyueps.jpg

For tape measures, I use a FastCap flat metric unit. Again the scale is very easy to read.

I bought an iGaging digital caliper when I first started my serious hobby woodworking, about 5 years ago. It was about $30 and I've not really found any real inaccuracy issues with it to date.
much thanks Chris. I'm looking at getting the incra router table., that's why i was asking about the lead screw differences. I'll take a look at those other tools you mentioned. I need to get some kind of metric T-square and triangle too.

But see, I never use math to do this. I use dividers. Either that or I hold a scale at an angle so there is an appropriate number if divisions and pick the appropriate whole division. I was thinking that in my woodworking, I rarely use math. I mostly use alternative layout methods.
What dividers are these? can you post a link, or photo?

[Mike Wilkins]

Difficult move to metric if you have been using Imperial all your life. I built a cabinet to hold some Festool drawers recently, and had to build in metric. Got to have a metric tape measure and ruler.
I also subscribe to a UK woodworking magazine called Furniture and Cabinetmaking, and most projects are in metric. There are also conversion charts to aid in going from inches to millimeters.
Good luck and have fun.

[Jon Steffen]

Jon, BTW, story sticks are a really great way to work with consistency. I also tend to use fixed dimensions for the larger assembly and then measure intermediate components directly off that assembly so that they are exact...no scale needed.

what type of story sticks do you use? are you talking about the woodpecker ones? I thought story sticks were much more basic, but the video i just watched is pretty sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-pVXLZgdN0&feature=emb_logo

[Mark Hennebury]

If you want to do accurate and precise furniture size woodworking use a story stick and a knife; that's as close to absolute as you will get; it is as close to idiot proof as you can get; and it is as easy as it gets.
If you want to less accurate and less precise work, mark from a ruler and even worse use a pencil
If you want to make mistakes use math.

With a story stick and a knife you wont make errors. you don't need math, you don't need rulers and calculators and you don't need to choose between decimal, fractions or millimetres.
You transfer marks with a knife and square directly from the parts.
You don't need to know what size they are.
Oh.. and one more benefit ( or deficit whichever way you want to look at it) you don't have to spend a cent. Of course if you like spending lots of money on shiny tools you wont be happy.

[Jamie Buxton]

For those who use decimal inches, where do you find a scale in decimal inches? The only such thing I've ever seen is my dad had an old pipe layer's tape that was in decimal feet.

Machinist's rules can be had in decimal inches, from any machinist's supply -- Enco for instance. I have a six inch one, a twelve inch one, and I have 36" ones on my table saw and crosscut sled. I also have a decimal-inch ten-foot measuring tape which I bought from Lee Valley. Actually I have about five of them left. When Lee Valley briefly offered them, perhaps fifteen years ago, I bought a dozen. Some have gotten lost or damaged, and I've given some away.

[Mark Hennebury]

I just watched the video and it's a joke. A Waste of money and less accurate then a stick of wood and a knife.



what type of story sticks do you use? are you talking about the woodpecker ones? I thought story sticks were much more basic, but the video i just watched is pretty sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-pVXLZgdN0&feature=emb_logo

[Jon Steffen]

I just watched the video and it's a joke. A Waste of money and less accurate then a stick of wood and a knife.
do you have a link to something I can watch to learn this story stick with knife method of putting stuff together?

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have the Woodpeckers Story Stick, had it for 3 years, think I've used it once and then it wasn't much of an advantage.

It would be the last thing I would buy again, correct that, I wouldn't buy it again.

I have lots of Woodpecker tools, most I like.

[Jon Steffen]

I have the Woodpeckers Story Stick, had it for 3 years, think I've used it once and then it wasn't much of an advantage.

It would be the last thing I would buy again, correct that, I wouldn't buy it again.

I have lots of Woodpecker tools, most I like.
Thanks, good to know.

[johnny means]

Life is a whole lot easier if you can move easily between the two. I don't have much use for decimal inches because no one in my professional ecosystem uses them. Story sticks are great if you work in a cave alone and never do anything longer than your wingspan, but I'm pretty sure AutoCad doesn't do storystick yet.

[Brian Holcombe]

For those who use decimal inches, where do you find a scale in decimal inches? The only such thing I've ever seen is my dad had an old pipe layer's tape that was in decimal feet.

I just have the fractions memorized as decimal inches.

[Curt Harms]

.................................................. ....................
This is the main reason why i'm asking. Going to be buying some tools in the coming months, Don't want to buy more Imperial if I am going to make the switch. I probably only have a few hundred dollars wrapped up in stuff that I would want to replace.


The Inch being 25.4mm is rather funny. Maybe it won't be too hard to make the change afterall.
thanks for the info about precision/accuracy

I think I might invest in a Metric tape measure and next project I build, just use that and see how things go. I don't have a ton of router bits, drill bits that I'd need to replace.

Are dado widths measured in both imperial and metric? Or do you actually make a 1/2" wide dado and then the slightly thinner 1/2" plywood (not actually 1/2" thick) just fit a little loose?

1 mm is fairly close to halfway between 1/16" and 1/32". My fix for plywood and dados was to build a simple jig, 2 pieces of 3/4" ply held together by crosspieces with slots in one end. I clamp one of the 'jaws' to the workpiece with the inside edge on the desired edge of the dado. Put the shelf or a piece against one 'jaw' then move the other 'jaw' against the shelf and tighten a knob to hold the second 'jaw' in position. I now have a space the exact width of the desired dado. I use a 1/2" X 1/2" top bearing router bit, also referred to as a pattern bit to cut the dado. There's no reliance on available router bit sizes to match the plywood thickness. The limitation is the size of available pattern bit sizes. There's also a way to use router bushings and straight bits using a similar jig to accomplish the same thing, the advantage there is the ability to do dados narrower than available pattern bits. There may be pattern bits smaller than 1/2" but I don't find them readily. I find using a router to cut dados slower than a dado head in a table saw but the resulting dado is really smooth and I don't have to cut - shim - cut as I do with a dado head. Different ways to skin the proverbial cat.

[Jim Becker]

For story sticks I use...a stick. Literally. I mark it with pencils, both normal black and sometimes colors to differentiate certain things.

Jon, on your question about router bits, those are a tougher row to hoe, but honestly, it's not much of a big deal. For dados/grooves/rebates that need to mach material thickness, it's best to do it with a smaller cutter and two passes anyway so you can precisely match the material thickness. Plywood, for example, is variable in thickness, although buying quality from a real sheet goods supplier usually results in a little more consistency. I measure with a caliper. For my CNC, I do have a few very small diameter cutters that are metric, but most tooling is Imperial just because that's what's available. I don't really care about that because the software does the conversion anyway. :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mike, I had been using Imperial all my life before switching to metric and didn't find it difficult.

As you indicated you do need new measuring tools and I never convert.

I design and build in metric, if I ever use a drawing in Imperial I use that measurement system for fabrication....Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Very true Mark, the only issue is mailing that story stick, drawings are easier :D

regards, Rod.

[Joe Jensen]

Metric is easy as others have said. The one thing I don't like is that all the tapes I use have 1/32nd of an inch market. I often read and split that 1/32" into half. Metric tapes are marked down to 1/10ths of a MM which is a little more than 1/32". Not a huge diff.

[Jon Steffen]

1 mm is fairly close to halfway between 1/16" and 1/32". My fix for plywood and dados was to build a simple jig, 2 pieces of 3/4" ply held together by crosspieces with slots in one end. I clamp one of the 'jaws' to the workpiece with the inside edge on the desired edge of the dado. Put the shelf or a piece against one 'jaw' then move the other 'jaw' against the shelf and tighten a knob to hold the second 'jaw' in position. I now have a space the exact width of the desired dado. I use a 1/2" X 1/2" top bearing router bit, also referred to as a pattern bit to cut the dado. There's no reliance on available router bit sizes to match the plywood thickness. The limitation is the size of available pattern bit sizes. There's also a way to use router bushings and straight bits using a similar jig to accomplish the same thing, the advantage there is the ability to do dados narrower than available pattern bits. There may be pattern bits smaller than 1/2" but I don't find them readily. I find using a router to cut dados slower than a dado head in a table saw but the resulting dado is really smooth and I don't have to cut - shim - cut as I do with a dado head. Different ways to skin the proverbial cat.
Nice I think i get the visual. i've seen videos of dado router jigs before. Seems easy enough once I've used a router a few times.
As for the dado stack, do you need to cut-shim-cut, or can you put the whole stack together and do pass-raise blade-pass.......? More ways to skin the cat I guess. might need to precicely position depth of cut (height of blade) on the final pass?

[Jon Steffen]

For story sticks I use...a stick. Literally. I mark it with pencils, both normal black and sometimes colors to differentiate certain things.

Jon, on your question about router bits, those are a tougher row to hoe, but honestly, it's not much of a big deal. For dados/grooves/rebates that need to mach material thickness, it's best to do it with a smaller cutter and two passes anyway so you can precisely match the material thickness. Plywood, for example, is variable in thickness, although buying quality from a real sheet goods supplier usually results in a little more consistency. I measure with a caliper. For my CNC, I do have a few very small diameter cutters that are metric, but most tooling is Imperial just because that's what's available. I don't really care about that because the software does the conversion anyway. :)
What kind of stick? 1/2 thick strip of plywood, pine, oak? 1/4"? stick from a white pine that fell in the backyard? =)

The readily available comment hits home. I think most of the bits i've seen are imperial. I was also thinking I need to learn to be bilingual in metric and imperial. Imperial works really well for 2x material to reduce waste on material.

I think i'll end up building some projects in imperial and some in metric, but never both and never convert like others have suggested.

[Jim Dwight]

Yes, you can find metric dimension router bits although they are not as common as imperial bits, at least from the suppliers I use. The "chuck" refers to the collet of the router, the part that grips the bit. 1/4 and 1/2 are the most common in the U. S. but I noticed I can get 8mm collets for my PC routers if I want. I don't plan to do that because I already have 5 collets in imperial for my 3 PC routers and quite a few bits. But if there was a bit I really wanted to use that only came in 8mm I would get that collet.

I don't think one sizing system is better or worse for router bits or collets. But it is easier to get the sizes most common where you live.

[Steve Mathews]

As a hobbyist woodworker and machinist I see no advantage to do anything in Metric as opposed to Imperial measurements. Accuracy/precision is certainly not enhanced and working with either system is not more difficult or easier than the other. They're simply systems of measurement. Most of my tools are in Imperial so that's what I use most often. When using the few tools I have in Metric I use that system of measurement or make the appropriate conversion. The same goes with trying to follow a design that's in either system of measurement. It's not that difficult. So, to the OPs question I say use both and by no means discard or not use good tools just because they're setup for feet and inches.

[Mark Hennebury]

I will make a video.


But you can probably figure it out quite easily once you give it a try, you will see more and more ways to use it.
The thing is, woodworking is simple if you get a system down.
Then all you need is the patience and discipline to follow your system.
The biggest concern is eliminating errors.
So develop a system to eliminate as many ways that would introduce errors is the place to start.
When you begin a piece of furniture all you need is an overall length , height and width. and for most things it doesn't matter which way you get that. feet and inches, decimals or fractions millimetres or hands. or you can just sketch it out full-size and play with the proportions until it looks right. You can design it on Autocad or Solidworks or whatever and have every part to four decimal places if you want, but it won't help you achieve that accuracy unless you know how to apply that to your work. The system!

Dress your stock, straight , square and parallel, it doesn't matter what you measure it with a tape measure or digital calipers, it doesn't matter what size it is, it maybe be ten thou over or under the target, or a sixteenth it makes no difference as you will transfer for the stock itself.
Always dress extra stock. You will need pieces for story sticks and test pieces.
Always make you stock longer than you need; so that you can cut off to finish length and have cut-offs to use for transferring sizes to your story stick.
Make several story sticks. You use them for dividing spaces.
Make your story sticks square, and use all sides, when needed.

I make story sticks out of the same size stock as i make my furniture. I dress up extra stock to the same dimensions as my furniture pieces, it doesn't have to be the same wood. But something with a clear fine grain so that you can see fine knife lines.

[Derek Cohen]

I grew up with both Imperial and Metric, so I guess that makes me bilingual :)

Most hand tools are in Imperial since the good stuff is either vintage British or vintage US. Then, tool slaving takes this a step further, with mortice chisels and plough plane blades being matched up. However, this is still not “measuring”, per se.

A turning point was the purchase of a Hammer A3-31 jointer-thicknesser/planer. This is Metric. Now machining boards is easier if done in Metric. This also affects grooves, since it is easier to thickness 6mm rather than 6.35mm (1/4”). And so there is a slow move to metric plough plane blades.

Metric will inevitably take over for measurements. This is not the same thing as measuring for parts. Measuring for parts does not need a number; instead it is required to be a good proportion, aesthetic, sympathetic. You do not get these from Metric or Imperial numbers. You don’t even measure them. Instead you determine them by play. And you transfer them practically, with a story stick.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

What kind of stick? 1/2 thick strip of plywood, pine, oak? 1/4"? stick from a white pine that fell in the backyard?

I use whatever is in the shorts bin for a short stick and the longs rack for something long. :) Scrap material, in other words. It might be solid stock and if it's not clean, a pass through the planer solves that. It might be a piece of plywood cutoff or MDF. I use a lot of .25" MDF for templates, story sticks or boards, etc. Whatever is available.

[Steve Mathews]

I grew up with both Imperial and Metric, so I guess that makes me bilingual :)

Most hand tools are in Imperial since the good stuff is either vintage British or vintage US. Then, tool slaving takes this a step further, with mortice chisels and plough plane blades being matched up. However, this is still not “measuring”, per se.

A turning point was the purchase of a Hammer A3-31 jointer-thicknesser/planer. This is Metric. Now machining boards is easier if done in Metric. This also affects grooves, since it is easier to thickness 6mm rather than 6.35mm (1/4”). And so there is a slow move to metric plough plane blades.

Metric will inevitably take over for measurements. This is not the same thing as measuring for parts. Measuring for parts does not need a number; instead it is required to be a good proportion, aesthetic, sympathetic. You do not get these from Metric or Imperial numbers. You don’t even measure them. Instead you determine them by play. And you transfer them practically, with a story stick.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You stated "machining boards is easier if done in Metric" and others have made similar comments that working in Metric is easier. I'm curious, how so? What makes using this system of measurement easier? I frankly don't see one any easier than the other to use. They're both just arbitrary units of distance, history of origin aside.

[mike stenson]

The lack of fractions, in general, is easier to do maths with. Especially large maths. However I will be willing to bet that his new planer has metric measurements, since it's a Hammer and not in the last country to use imperial measurements ;)

[Jim Becker]

You stated "machining boards is easier if done in Metric" and others have made similar comments that working in Metric is easier. I'm curious, how so? What makes using this system of measurement easier? I frankly don't see one any easier than the other to use. They're both just arbitrary units of distance, history of origin aside.

In general, any system is as easy as it is for the given worker...and ease of use is certainly subjective. Metric's benefit is no fractions and it's based on the number ten so as has been mentioned the math is a little easier. Converting after a virtual lifetime of working in Imperial isn't hard around the using the system. The difficulty is with visualization. Some of them are easy, such as 2" being ~50mm, etc. It's in the longer dimensions that those of us who have chosen to convert have to do more work to be able to "see" something without doing a conversion from what we know. After two years in with my "mostly metric" decision, I'm a lot farther along in that which is nice. Will I be able to "see" in metric fully? I don't know if or when that will happen or if it really needs to be accomplished. I'm still very happy that I chose to go this route.

[Mel Fulks]

I swore off ever voluntarily using it again after working in a shop where dimensions were often expressed using only
millimeters. What nonsense.

[mike stenson]

So, I can take from this that many people are resistant simply because of habit. Personally, yea you should learn new things. Even if you never apply them.

[Steve Mathews]

In general, any system is as easy as it is for the given worker...and ease of use is certainly subjective. Metric's benefit is no fractions and it's based on the number ten so as has been mentioned the math is a little easier. Converting after a virtual lifetime of working in Imperial isn't hard around the using the system. The difficulty is with visualization. Some of them are easy, such as 2" being ~50mm, etc. It's in the longer dimensions that those of us who have chosen to convert have to do more work to be able to "see" something without doing a conversion from what we know. After two years in with my "mostly metric" decision, I'm a lot farther along in that which is nice. Will I be able to "see" in metric fully? I don't know if or when that will happen or if it really needs to be accomplished. I'm still very happy that I chose to go this route.


I suppose what you're saying by comparison is that for someone that is fluent in several languages but primarily functions in a native one will constantly go through a translation process. Using the native one will bring fuller meaning to the discourse however. I would agree in that sense, which is a good argument for using a system of measurement one started off with but become familiar with others.

[Jim Becker]

I suppose what you're saying by comparison is that for someone that is fluent in several languages but primarily functions in a native one will constantly go through a translation process. Using the native one will bring fuller meaning to the discourse however. I would agree in that sense, which is a good argument for using a system of measurement one started off with but become familiar with others.

That's reasonable. But I'll add to it that because it's not your native language doesn't mean you cannot enjoy speaking it more and more every day. The fluency may become natural and automatic or maybe not. You don't really know until you "do the deed". I'm glad I personally didn't dismiss the metric system because it was different than what was ingrained in my head for 60 years because after trying it with a few projects (and committing to complete them using it no matter what) I discovered that I actually like it. It makes sense to me. But then again, I prefer the 24 hour clock, too. :) :D

[Brian Holcombe]

The lack of fractions, in general, is easier to do maths with. Especially large maths. However I will be willing to bet that his new planer has metric measurements, since it's a Hammer and not in the last country to use imperial measurements ;)

I stick with imperial specifically because of those fractions. I cut joinery which is typically laid out in thirds, and base twelve is easier to divide by three than base ten.

If I want to work in base ten I can simply work in decimal inches.

By contrast I appreciate that scientific work is better done in a system which the standards are observable features of nature which remain consistent.

[Rod Sheridan]

But then again, I prefer the 24 hour clock, too. :) :D

Haha, my kids still complain about me using that, even worse at we use the day of the year such as day132 and UTC....The kids think we’re all nerds.....Rod

[Jim Becker]

Rod, I also use the "14 July 2020" format for dates. :) And lines through my zeros. Yea, I'm a weirdo. Just ask Professor Dr. SWMBO. :)

[Derek Cohen]

You stated "machining boards is easier if done in Metric" and others have made similar comments that working in Metric is easier. I'm curious, how so? What makes using this system of measurement easier? I frankly don't see one any easier than the other to use. They're both just arbitrary units of distance, history of origin aside.

Steve, I should have have qualified my comment by stating that the Hammer has a gauge in metric. It does not measure thickness in Imperial - this is the case world wide, I imagine. For thicknesses, everything flows from the thicknesser/planer. If the machine was scaled in Imperial, I would be working that way.

Perhaps this is making me lazy, but the simplicity of Metric is becoming ever more attractive and preferred.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josko Catipovic]

I think we should all be switching to whatever measurement system the Chinese use.

[johnny means]

I stick with imperial specifically because of those fractions. I cut joinery which is typically laid out in thirds, and base twelve is easier to divide by three than base ten.

If I want to work in base ten I can simply work in decimal inches.

By contrast I appreciate that scientific work is better done in a system which the standards are observable features of nature which remain consistent.
How is it base twelve? One inch isn't so easily divisible by three.

[mike stenson]

I suppose what you're saying by comparison is that for someone that is fluent in several languages but primarily functions in a native one will constantly go through a translation process..

I disagree, you end up thinking in those languages. The same is true for metric/imperial measurements. It takes longer, because it's more abstract than language.

[mike stenson]

I stick with imperial specifically because of those fractions. I cut joinery which is typically laid out in thirds, and base twelve is easier to divide by three than base ten.

If I want to work in base ten I can simply work in decimal inches.

By contrast I appreciate that scientific work is better done in a system which the standards are observable features of nature which remain consistent.

It's all relative anyway, for woodworking. Ultimately, I work to the sizes required for joinery. Because most of my chisels are imperial, that means I work to imperial. If my chisels were metric, it'd be metric. If I want 1/3rd of a meter, it's 33,333mm easy (easier than having to go multiply by 64ths if you're into that thing, I am not). Although really not that critical a deal for woodworking as I'm not machining to someone's plans and we do not require the same accuracy.

So, I believe we're really saying the same thing in the end.

[Jon Steffen]

I will make a video.


But you can probably figure it out quite easily once you give it a try, you will see more and more ways to use it.
The thing is, woodworking is simple if you get a system down.
Then all you need is the patience and discipline to follow your system.
The biggest concern is eliminating errors.
So develop a system to eliminate as many ways that would introduce errors is the place to start.
When you begin a piece of furniture all you need is an overall length , height and width. and for most things it doesn't matter which way you get that. feet and inches, decimals or fractions millimetres or hands. or you can just sketch it out full-size and play with the proportions until it looks right. You can design it on Autocad or Solidworks or whatever and have every part to four decimal places if you want, but it won't help you achieve that accuracy unless you know how to apply that to your work. The system!

Dress your stock, straight , square and parallel, it doesn't matter what you measure it with a tape measure or digital calipers, it doesn't matter what size it is, it maybe be ten thou over or under the target, or a sixteenth it makes no difference as you will transfer for the stock itself.
Always dress extra stock. You will need pieces for story sticks and test pieces.
Always make you stock longer than you need; so that you can cut off to finish length and have cut-offs to use for transferring sizes to your story stick.
Make several story sticks. You use them for dividing spaces.
Make your story sticks square, and use all sides, when needed.

I make story sticks out of the same size stock as i make my furniture. I dress up extra stock to the same dimensions as my furniture pieces, it doesn't have to be the same wood. But something with a clear fine grain so that you can see fine knife lines.
I look forward to the video! sounds easy enough.

The lack of fractions, in general, is easier to do maths with. Especially large maths. However I will be willing to bet that his new planer has metric measurements, since it's a Hammer and not in the last country to use imperial measurements ;)
Methinks maths would be easier too.

So, I can take from this that many people are resistant simply because of habit. Personally, yea you should learn new things. Even if you never apply them.
I'm there with ya Mike. I've learned new things and used them once or twice. Sometimes the fun is doing something in a new way, more difficult way even.

Ever start a fire with a bow? What a stupid idea when i have gasoline and a blowtorch. =) I think enough support for trying or even switching to Metric is here that i'll give it a shot.

I'm thinking that layouts of decorative glue ups will be easier (for me anyway). 300mm broken up into 5 sections 80,30,80,30,80, or 90,30,60,30,90. The numbers are more easily subtracted and added for me i guess to play around with different sizes of the pieces.

This in inches I would do something like 12" broken up into 5 sections, 2,3,2,3,2, or 3,1.5,3,1.5,3 or 2.75, 1.75, 3, 1.75, 2.75. Anyways, if anybody read the last 2 sentences and understands what I was thinking, NEAT. Its mentally slower for me to tweak the numbers in Imperial..............I just realized, its also easier to write in Metric, or Decimel Inches before Fractional Inches.

[Alex Zeller]

When I started getting into woodworking I would use decimals. That's mainly because I was use to working with fractions and US tape measures. What I found was that I was spending too much time trying to be too precise. I guess some people need that precision but, for example, if you have a cabinet that has 3 shelves equal distance apart it's been my experience that nobody is going to notice if one is 1/16th off. For example the (I need 1/3 of 2' 6 7/8"). I would go 10 5/16". If it was shelves I would put two at 10 5/16" and one at 10 1/4". As for plywood, I never assume it's the same thickness as the last sheets I bought. So I set my dado up each time. But once you get use to the number of shims and chippers needed you'll just set it up that way, run a test block through, and check to see if it's correct. I don't think about decimals if it's not exactly what I want, I just swap out a shim if needed to make it thicker or thinner. I rarely use a router to make dados but if I did I would just use the correct bit. Imperial vs metric wouldn't play a decision into it.

Woodworking should be fun for us hobbyists. If something works for you because of how you think then stick with it. If your shop is set up for one system then you have to decide if spending the money to convert it is the best way to spend your money. I don't see the US changing any time soon.

[bill epstein]

The one thing to avoid at all costs is doing conversions. That will kill your accuracy and drive you crazy. Just learn what a centimeter looks like and think in those terms. It's awkward at first and then becomes second nature. It does tend to drive my wife crazy when we're cooking because I can eyeball 500 g of flour or 100 g of butter to within a couple percent but can't for the life of me tell her how many cups or furlongs or whatever that might be.

Absolute wisdom!

[Brian Holcombe]

How is it base twelve? One inch isn't so easily divisible by three.

Twelve inches in a foot.

Inches are divisible by whatever suits your work, I have rules that are in tenths and those that are in sixteenths, and I may be mistaken but I believe there are other divisions used for construction.

I use metric when necessary since it is typically just a button on my digital stuff, but I don’t prefer it for my work. My stock sizes are setup to work off quick division into thirds on an inch scale (3/8, 3/4, 1-1/8”, 1-1/2”, 1-7/8” typically for my shop).

I’m just not so impressed by metric that I need to spend any money changing tooling to suit it.

[Roger Feeley]

I sort of go with the flow. I have wrenches, nuts and bolts in both systems. But if there is ever the political will to go fully metric, I will cheerfully retire my imperial stuff.

[Albert Lee]

Its interesting to read all the feedbacks about imperial vs metric.

10mm socket wrench please.

[mike stenson]

Its interesting to read all the feedbacks about imperial vs metric.

10mm socket wrench please.

I have about 10 of them. 5 wrenches too.

I moved a couple years ago, I found several then.

[Mark e Kessler]

Metric simplifies so much, its worth giving it a go to see if it works for you with that said i still use decimal inches and fractions if i must. Just know that it wont happen overnight so try a few projects in metric

[Curt Harms]

Rod, I also use the "14 July 2020" format for dates. :) And lines through my zeros. Yea, I'm a weirdo. Just ask Professor Dr. SWMBO. :)

Nothing weird about the zero thing. Usually I can determine whether letter O or number 0 by context but not always. I think the US military uses the day/month/year format as do Europeans. NATO thing?

[Robert Engel]

Does anyone besides me have difficulty reading mm's?

Even with my readers, I need magnification.

[Rod Sheridan]

Steve, I should have have qualified my comment by stating that the Hammer has a gauge in metric. It does not measure thickness in Imperial - this is the case world wide, I imagine. For thicknesses, everything flows from the thicknesser/planer. If the machine was scaled in Imperial, I would be working that way.

Perhaps this is making me lazy, but the simplicity of Metric is becoming ever more attractive and preferred.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The planer is 2mm/revolution on the hand wheel, which is some ungodly decimal in the Imperial system ( 0.079"/rev)

We sell both Imperial and metric gauges, I always recommend the metric one to customers........Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Nothing weird about the zero thing. Usually I can determine whether letter O or number 0 by context but not always. I think the US military uses the day/month/year format as do Europeans. NATO thing?

I use YYYY/MM/DD as a date format which is the ISO 8601 standard.........Rod.

[Jamie Buxton]

The planer is 2mm/revolution on the hand wheel, which is some ungodly decimal in the Imperial system ( 0.079"/rev)...

The motion per handwheel revolution is irrelevant. I just read the (decimal-inch) numbers off the Hammer's dial. It works extremely well. I routinely set it to .001". It is repeatable and accurate. I can confirm it with a micrometer, but rarely bother.

[scott vroom]

It does tend to drive my wife crazy when we're cooking because I can eyeball 500 g of flour or 100 g of butter to within a couple percent but can't for the life of me tell her how many cups or furlongs or whatever that might be.

How would one convert weight to volume in any system? A pound of flour will have a higher volume than a pound of butter.

[John Stankus]

How would one convert weight to volume in any system? A pound of flour will have a higher volume than a pound of butter.

The property is called density. (sorry for being glib :) ) Mass really tells you how much of something you have, volume not so much. You can pack flour tightly or loosely in the same volume and get different amounts. Many professional bakers weigh out their ingredients rather than adding by volume.

(and I'll just skip over the technical difference between mass and weight...until I have to teach it to the two sections of freshman chemistry this fall ;) )

John

[Warren Lake]

finishes, your finish, catalyst, reducer, all by weight

Year month day stuff is annoying, we learn one way now when you do your HST you have to figure out each invoice, if the first one is the day or the month, wastes time figuring out what it really is one company doing it one way then next one the opposite.

Metric, never used it and never stopped me from making a living. If i need it at some point then will deal with it.

And Josko thanks for the smile.

[Steve Demuth]

Does anyone besides me have difficulty reading mm's?

Even with my readers, I need magnification.

Yes, I find traditional metric rulers, where you have primary markings at centimeters, secondary at 5mm, and mm in between very hard to work with. I can easily read an imperial ruler down to 32nds (which of course are smaller than mms), because the 32nds are sandwiched between 16th which I can easily distinguish and reference to 8ths or quarters. But that stretch of 4 undifferentiated fine gradations between 10mm or 1 cm, and 15mm, defeats my old eyes.

In the spirit of this conversation overall, our national insistence on Imperial measures and tools is to me simply whacko. Metric is the world standard, and we ought to simply adopt it.

In my personal life, I use Imperial measurements in the shop - not because of the above problem I have with mm rulers, for which I find adaptation strategies as necessary, but because all my tools are that way. To me, since woodworking is 99% about one dimensional measurements, I really see no difference in day to day use, so I use what I have. I use decimal inches when doing machine work, binary fractional inches for woodwork, conversion where the two intersect (stock size and holes, e.g., in machine work, are still in fractional inches, even though you work in decimal inches). Any numerate person can handle this, and all have recourse to a calculator if they doubt their brains. I completely don't understand the "math is easier argument" for either system. First, the math is the same, it's the arithmetic that is different. Even there, division is the only operation that is significantly impeded by fractions, and even with division, most problems are as natural in binary fraction as in decimal fractions. The few that aren't may take .001% of the actual time I spend on woodworking, and when I run into a hard one that I really need to get right, I pick up a fractional calculator and double check my work. Where Imperial just becomes a crazy-assed burden is when you go beyond one dimension and inch scale. To use one example - try calculating spray concentration and volume for a small orchard. You will be instantly lost in lbs, acres, gallons, and all sorts of simply bizarre subdivisions of each. The math isn't hard, but the arithmetic you need to execute the math is insane.

Professionally, I think mostly in a science based world. Science is multi-dimensional and requires a multitude of units that go way beyond length. International metric units are the only way to go.

[scott vroom]

All the more reason that weight isn't easily converted to volume (in a home cooking environment as was provided above).

[Jim Becker]

Does anyone besides me have difficulty reading mm's?

Even with my readers, I need magnification.

No issue with my readers or safety glasses that include readers. No different than reading 16ths, honestly...

[Rod Sheridan]

All the more reason that weight isn't easily converted to volume (in a home cooking environment as was provided above).

Yes, volume isn't very useful for accurately measuring things like flour, most non imperial cookbooks use weight for that purpose.

A work around for flour were instructions that specified that you sift the flour, presumably this gave a more repeatable density.....Rod

[Rod Sheridan]

How would one convert weight to volume in any system? A pound of flour will have a higher volume than a pound of butter.

Experience, you've done if before and can estimate the volume required, accurate enough for cooking...Rod.

[mike stenson]

Yes, volume isn't very useful for accurately measuring things like flour, most non imperial cookbooks use weight for that purpose.

A work around for flour were instructions that specified that you sift the flour, presumably this gave a more repeatable density.....Rod

I do not believe that the mass of the ingredients in cookbooks is necessarily as tied to the measurement method (metric/imperial), as it is the availability of measuring devices in non-professional environments.
Most of the 'newer' cookbooks that we have that includes baking recipes give ingredients in mass, rather than volumetric, fashion. I think the reason it's listed in grams, is simply because every digital scale out there is easily converted by pushing a button (or switch).

Well, and that way you don't have to do a US only printing.

[Albert Lee]

Completely out of curiosity, what is the comparable measure to "board feet" in metric countries? Is wood sold by the "board meter" or some such thing?

we in the metrics use lineal metres or cubic metres when buying timber, that is 1 m x 1 m x 1 m is 1 cubic m, 1m = 100cm = 1000mm

I guess this is similar to board ft?

the metric system is plain and simple, everything is in 10 x or 100 x or 1000 x , I wondered why US is still using imperial.

[mike stenson]

we in the metrics use lineal metres or cubic metres when buying timber, that is 1 m x 1 m x 1 m is 1 cubic m, 1m = 100cm = 1000mm

I guess this is similar to board ft?

the metric system is plain and simple, everything is in 10 x or 100 x or 1000 x , I wondered why US is still using imperial.

It's similar. a board foot is width in inches X length in feet X thickness in inches divided by 12

Kind of an arcane measurement, but tied to imperial. Much like buying wood in the US by the 1/4 thickness (4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 8/4, 12/4 etc)..

[roger wiegand]

How would one convert weight to volume in any system? A pound of flour will have a higher volume than a pound of butter.

For anything that's close in density to water the conversion is trivial, a cubic centimeter is a gram to a couple percent. In reality I weigh all my ingredients. Measuring flour by volume (eg cups) is (quite literally) a recipe for disaster. Decades of weighing out various powders in the lab have trained my eye so that I know what 20 g of salt or 500 g of flour should look like. Hefting the bottle gives me an estimate of density, which I guess I think of relative to a volume of water; ie is it heavier or lighter than that volume of water would be.

For things like mixing epoxy if I only have the volume ratios I use the density of the components to calculate the weight ratio. Don't know why the makers don't just print it on the bottle. Weighing is a lot easier and more accurate.

[Jim Becker]

For baking...it's important to weigh dry ingredients to insure that you get the desired result. Even a small deviation can affect how the "project" develops when the heat is applied. That's regardless of the measuring system you are using.

[mike stenson]

Weighing is a lot easier and more accurate.

This completely bears repeating :)

[Mark Hennebury]

Cooking is not about measurements at all, it's about intuition, and feeling, a pinch of this, a knob of butter etc... It is not science, it is art,

[mike stenson]

Cooking is not about measurements at all, it's about intuition, and feeling, a pinch of this, a knob of butter etc... It is not science, it is art,

Cooking may be, but baking is not cooking. Baking is science. I worked in a bakery for a while, we weighed EVERYTHING, EVERY time. ALWAYS. It was beaten into us.

[Mark e Kessler]

You are correct, My better half says it is both but firstly based on science, she should know as a recipient of the American Culinary Federation Pastry Chef Award for the Northeast...


Cooking may be, but baking is not cooking. Baking is science. I worked in a bakery for a while, we weighed EVERYTHING, EVERY time. ALWAYS. It was beaten into us.

[Bill Dufour]

Hey! I get to use a fact that almost all adults get wrong. Which weighs more a pound of feathers or a pound of gold?
And how many gallons are in one barrel?
Bill D

[Mark Hennebury]

Just because people don't use a cup, don't think that they don't measure. Lots going on in the brain. Robots move due to science, humans just move, walk, run jump, dance Ballet . do gymnastics.... intuitively. It all requires calculations and measurement. Oh .. and baking is still cooking.


Cooking may be, but baking is not cooking. Baking is science. I worked in a bakery for a while, we weighed EVERYTHING, EVERY time. ALWAYS. It was beaten into us.

[Pete Staehling]

FWIW, I work in a mixed bag of mostly Imperial with fractional or decimal as fits best, with metric only sporadically. Way back when I was a young man I was excited that our country (USA) said they were going metric. I think we should have bit the bullet back then, but it never happened. As a result I worked in Imperial my whole career and most of my tools are Imperial.

I usually start with fractional Imperial, but I don't hesitate to switch to what ever makes a particular task easier. That is very often digital inches and occasionally metric.

If I were a young woodworker starting out today I'd want to be fluent in all three, but might default to metric.

[Mark e Kessler]

So you are saying it’s science now?


Just because people don't use a cup, don't think that they don't measure. Lots going on in the brain. Robots move due to science, humans just move, walk, run jump, dance Ballet . do gymnastics.... intuitively. It all requires calculations and measurement. Oh .. and baking is still cooking.

[Jon Steffen]

You are correct, My better half says it is both but firstly based on science, she should know as a recipient of the American Culinary Federation Pastry Chef Award for the Northeast...

WTF, I'm going to have to talk with my wife. Her accolade is that she graduated from the French pastry school in Chicago.... She does make wicked pastry though.

She has also echoed, baking is more like chemistry than art. Oh and she has an art degree in 2d art, so she would know. Lol

[Jon Steffen]

FWIW, I work in a mixed bag of mostly Imperial with fractional or decimal as fits best, with metric only sporadically. Way back when I was a young man I was excited that our country (USA) said they were going metric. I think we should have bit the bullet back then, but it never happened. As a result I worked in Imperial my whole career and most of my tools are Imperial.

I usually start with fractional Imperial, but I don't hesitate to switch to what ever makes a particular task easier. That is very often digital inches and occasionally metric.


If I were a young woodworker starting out today I'd want to be fluent in all three, but might default to metric.
Thanks Pete. I often start in fractions and switch to decimal, I think my problem is that I then convert back to the nearest fraction, it'd be easier to just stick with the decimel inches and use the proper tape measure, metal rule, ect.

[scott vroom]

Cooking is not about measurements at all, it's about intuition, and feeling, a pinch of this, a knob of butter etc... It is not science, it is art,

Yes, but in the baker's example measurement is paramount, most likely because of the desire to produce a repeatable, highly consistent product for your customers. When I buy my favorite scone from the baker, I appreciate that it is consistent, just the way I like it, every time. On the other hand if I'm cooking a meal for family or friends, I often do the ingredients by feel, recognizing that a bit of variety has it's place.

[Mark Hennebury]

I am not falling for that.......... If i were to say that everyone does science, I would get stoned to death.


So you are saying it’s science now?

[Jim Becker]

Cooking may be, but baking is not cooking. Baking is science. I worked in a bakery for a while, we weighed EVERYTHING, EVERY time. ALWAYS. It was beaten into us.

Spot on. The end result is predicated on very precise chemical and physical reactions with baking. Any serious baker has a digital scale right there on the counter because of this.

[Jeff Ranck]

What dividers are these? can you post a link, or photo?

Here are a couple of pictures. Lots of vintage dividers floating around, which is what I generally prefer. You can spend a lot on dividers from Starrett if you want. The important thing is that they hold a setting and the tips are sharp and come together properly.

Here's a page from Tolpin's book, by Hand and Eye. Combining dividers with a sector, now that is when things get really crazy because then you don't even have to do the "divide the remainder into three parts" type step. See a general description here: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/09/08/creating-evenly-spaced-intervals-with-dividers-or-a-sector/

436983436984436985

[mike stenson]

Yes, but in the baker's example measurement is paramount, most likely because of the desire to produce a repeatable, highly consistent product for your customers. When I buy my favorite scone from the baker, I appreciate that it is consistent, just the way I like it, every time. On the other hand if I'm cooking a meal for family or friends, I often do the ingredients by feel, recognizing that a bit of variety has it's place.

It's not just consistency. The ingredients actually do have chemical reactions that affect the product. If you don't believe that, go play with sourdough breads.

[scott vroom]

It's not just consistency. The ingredients actually do have chemical reactions that affect the product. If you don't believe that, go play with sourdough breads.

No doubt that's true, but the point I was making is that the end result of the science is a consistent product that consumers can rely on, i.e. repeatability.

[mike stenson]

No doubt that's true, but the point I was making is that the end result of the science is a consistent product that consumers can rely on, i.e. repeatability.

Well, only if you count things like leavening as repeatability. But, it's obvious that this is a pointless discussion (probably because the S word was mentioned), so I'm out.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I can't believe I'm reading 9 pages and it's turned into the cooking channel.

I guess I need to decide whether I need to start measuring my Sugar Maple in cups or kilograms....

[John Gornall]

I was amused reading another posting about Blum Movento drawer slides and they were talking inches. If ever there was a time to switch it's with Euro cabinet hardware which is all metric.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Baking needs procedures that are consistent and always work. It will use scientific knowledge when it's helpful, but has no problem with just knowing what works without explanation. That's engineering, not science.

[David Bassett]

... Here's a page from Tolpin's book, by Hand and Eye. Combining dividers with a sector, now that is when things get really crazy because then you don't even have to do the "divide the remainder into three parts" type step. See a general description here: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/09/08/creating-evenly-spaced-intervals-with-dividers-or-a-sector/

LAP's latest Instagram post also advertises this book and it shows the divider method when you overshoot:

@lostartpress Using Dividers (https://www.instagram.com/p/CCtItbhscNo/)

[Steve Demuth]

Spot on. The end result is predicated on very precise chemical and physical reactions with baking. Any serious baker has a digital scale right there on the counter because of this.

I would be careful with such generalizations. I have been priviliged to have world class bread to eat, courtesy of my wife, who bakes all of our bread at home. When I die, if they bury me with a couple of loaves of her sourdough olive and a tub of fresh butter, I'll have a happy journey across the Styx. I've never seen her measure ingredients for bread, let alone weigh them.

She also makes muffins and scones to die for. Those she does use measuring cups for, although rather carelessly compared to what I see some people doing.

[Halgeir Wold]

You are looking at this metric stuff from the wrong end, - and that makes things a lot more complicated than they actually are...... Metric is not only about length, - it covers length, area, volume, weight, velocity, - everything, - and all is about factors of ten..... Metrics came about in an attempt to unify or fing common grounds for scientific and commersial work, in contrary to the more or less chaos that existed up until the 1700s.. various units was not only causing confusion, but also downright fraud. AS for the confusion, - here in Scandinavia there were several definision of "thumbs", which is the local name ( tumal in old norse). This actually relates to the roman "uncia", which was the width of the thumb at the first joint. Uncia is also the origin of "inch". However - failing to find an agreement on which of the existing systems or units to use, the Frech Science Academy decided to make a new system which became the metric system.

Millimeters is for medium precision work. I don't go to the lumber yard to buy 3400mm of 2x4s, - I ask for 3,4 meters - or so. For most of everyday work around the house, we use centimeters or meters, - depending on the task or accuracy expected, - all in factors of ten..... easy-peasy! Same goes for weight and volume, - one litre is 1 cubic desimeter ( a cube of 10 cm, - just shy of 4"...) is egual to 1 kilogram, - and the original definition og weight was 1 cubic centimeter of water = 1 gram....
This was the basis for the CGS system ( centimeters- grams- seconds), from which all other units was defined. Later Ampere was added for electrisity, and the system was called the MKSA system, - Meters, Kilograms, Seconds, Amperes, which is again the basis for the SI ( Systeme International) which rules all trades and sciences today, also in the US.....

[Jon Steffen]

Here are a couple of pictures. Lots of vintage dividers floating around, which is what I generally prefer. You can spend a lot on dividers from Starrett if you want. The important thing is that they hold a setting and the tips are sharp and come together properly.

Here's a page from Tolpin's book, by Hand and Eye. Combining dividers with a sector, now that is when things get really crazy because then you don't even have to do the "divide the remainder into three parts" type step. See a general description here: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/09/08/creating-evenly-spaced-intervals-with-dividers-or-a-sector/

436983436984436985
Thanks for this. i'll give it a look see.

[Donald G. Burns]

I once owned a metric adjustable wrench needed it for metric nuts, I guess? :confused:

[Jon Steffen]

I once owned a metric adjustable wrench needed it for metric nuts, I guess? :confused:

Is that like a blinker fluid joke?

What weighs more a pound of metric bolts, or a pound of grade 8 imperial bolts?

Is there such a thing as a metric pound?

[Curt Harms]

Is that like a blinker fluid joke?

What weighs more a pound of metric bolts, or a pound of grade 8 imperial bolts?

Is there such a thing as a metric pound?

Yup, it's called a kilogram. Is there such a thing as a metric ton? Yup, 1000 Kg or 2200 lbs. I've also heard it called a long ton.

[Mark e Kessler]

Awe man, almost got You! Just kidding, I have no idea what u r trying to say here...


I am not falling for that.......... If i were to say that everyone does science, I would get stoned to death.

[David Buchhauser]

I once owned a metric adjustable wrench needed it for metric nuts, I guess? :confused:

I've got a matched pair of adjustable wrenches - one metric and one SAE. I purchased these at Sears about 40 years ago.
David

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[Jim Becker]

Well...those are the lengths of the tool to indicate size/strength. LOL But think about it...marketing a 16" long tool in a place that folks only use metric might be confusing and vice versa. 400mm and 16" are similar lengths. Out of curiosity, what's on the other side in the way of markings?

[Roger Feeley]

Yep, conversions will kill you

"NASA lost its $125-million Mars Climate Orbiter because spacecraft engineers failed to convert from English to metric measurements when exchanging vital data before the craft was launched, space agency officials said Thursday.
A navigation team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory used the metric system of millimeters and meters in its calculations, while Lockheed Martin Astronautics in Denver, which designed and built the spacecraft, provided crucial acceleration data in the English system of inches, feet and pounds.

As a result, JPL engineers mistook acceleration readings measured in English units of pound-seconds for a metric measure of force called newton-seconds."

IIRC, The probe crashed before it would have deployed the parachute. Right out of a Road Runner cartoon.

[Mark Hennebury]

They should have used a story stick!


Yep, conversions will kill you

"NASA lost its $125-million Mars Climate Orbiter because spacecraft engineers failed to convert from English to metric measurements when exchanging vital data before the craft was launched, space agency officials said Thursday.
A navigation team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory used the metric system of millimeters and meters in its calculations, while Lockheed Martin Astronautics in Denver, which designed and built the spacecraft, provided crucial acceleration data in the English system of inches, feet and pounds.

As a result, JPL engineers mistook acceleration readings measured in English units of pound-seconds for a metric measure of force called newton-seconds."

IIRC, The probe crashed before it would have deployed the parachute. Right out of a Road Runner cartoon.

[Rod Sheridan]

I can't believe I'm reading 9 pages and it's turned into the cooking channel.

I guess I need to decide whether I need to start measuring my Sugar Maple in cups or kilograms....


Come on we’re mostly guys here, of course it eventually morphs to topics of food.

So speaking of cups, in the US system, 4 cups make quart, so a cup is 8 fluid ounces.

I guess where I live a cup would be 10 ounces?

No wonder I prefer the metric system😀

[Halgeir Wold]

Yeah..... an ounce, or more correctly, an avoirdupois once, is 28.3 grams, a troy or apothecaries ounce is 31.1 grams.... and then there's the fluid ounce, which is not quite the same in Britain and the US..... there's an s-load og other ounces,too..... and the there were 12 inches to the foot, 12 lines to the inch, 12 scruples to the line.... Thank you folks, for inventing metrics.....:cool:

[Mark Hennebury]

The pint (/ˈpaɪnt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English), https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Loudspeaker.svg/11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GT_Pint.ogg)listen (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/GT_Pint.ogg) (help (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_help)·info (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GT_Pint.ogg)); symbol pt,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-2) sometimes abbreviated as p[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-3)) is a unit of volume (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume) or capacity in both the imperial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_unit) and United States customary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units) measurement systems. In both of those systems it is traditionally one eighth of a gallon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon). The British imperial pint is about ​1⁄5 larger than the American pint because the two systems are defined differently (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_US_customary_measur ement_systems). Almost all other countries have standardized on the metric system, so the size of what may be called a pint varies depending on local custom.


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Pints are commonly used for the sale of milk in the United Kingdom. The label gives both the metric and the imperial volume.


The imperial pint (≈ 568 ml (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millilitre)) is used in the United Kingdom and Ireland and to a limited extent in Commonwealth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) nations. In the United States, two kinds of pint are used: a liquid pint (≈ 473 ml) and a less-common dry pint (≈ 551 ml). Each of these pints is one eighth of its respective gallon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon), but the gallons differ. This difference dates back to 1824, when the British Weights and Measures Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weights_and_Measures_Acts_(UK)) standardized various liquid measures throughout the British Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire), while the United States continued to use the earlier English measure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_units). The imperial pint consists of 20 imperial fluid ounces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_ounce) and the US liquid pint is 16 US fluid ounces. The imperial fluid ounce is about 4% smaller than the US fluid ounce. All of the other former British colonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion), such as Canada, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, converted to the metric system in the 1960s and 1970s; so, while the term pint may still be in common use in these countries, it may no longer refer to the British imperial pint once used throughout the British Empire.
In the United Kingdom, the imperial pint is the mandatory base unit for draught beer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draught_beer) and cider.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-4) Milk sold in returnable containers (such as glass bottles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_milk_bottle)) may be sold by the pint alone and other goods may be sold by the pint if the equivalent metric measure is also given.
Since the majority of countries in the world no longer use American or British imperial units, and most are non-English speaking, a "pint of beer" served in a tavern outside the United Kingdom and the United States may be measured by other standards. In Commonwealth countries it may be a British imperial pint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#Imperial_pint) of 568 ml, in countries serving large numbers of American tourists it might be a US liquid pint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#United_States_liquid_pint) of 473 ml, in many metric countries it is a half-litre of 500 ml, or in some places it is another measure reflecting national and local laws and customs.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-5)
Historically, units called a pint (or the equivalent in the local language) were used across much of Europe, with values varying between countries from less than half a litre to over one litre. Within continental Europe, these pints were replaced with liquid measures based on the metric system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system) during the 19th century. The term is still in limited use in parts of France, where "une pinte" means an imperial quart, which is 2 imperial pints, whereas a pint is "une chopine"—and Central Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe), notably some areas of Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-6) and Switzerland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland), where "ein Schoppen" is colloquially used for roughly half a litre. In Spanish holiday resorts frequented by British tourists, 'pint' is often taken to mean a beer glass (especially a dimple mug). Half-pint and pint mugs may therefore be referred to as pinta pequeña ('small pint') and pinta grande ('large pint').

Cheers!

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[Jim Becker]

Yeah..... an ounce, or more correctly, an avoirdupois once, is 28.3 grams, a troy or apothecaries ounce is 31.1 grams.... and then there's the fluid ounce, which is not quite the same in Britain and the US..... there's an s-load og other ounces,too..... and the there were 12 inches to the foot, 12 lines to the inch, 12 scruples to the line.... Thank you folks, for inventing metrics.....:cool:


After that...I need a pint...of something. :) :D

[Jon Steffen]

The pint (/ˈpaɪnt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English), https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Loudspeaker.svg/11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GT_Pint.ogg)listen (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/GT_Pint.ogg) (help (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_help)·info (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GT_Pint.ogg)); symbol pt,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-2) sometimes abbreviated as p[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-3)) is a unit of volume (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume) or capacity in both the imperial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_unit) and United States customary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units) measurement systems. In both of those systems it is traditionally one eighth of a gallon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon). The British imperial pint is about ​1⁄5 larger than the American pint because the two systems are defined differently (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_US_customary_measur ement_systems). Almost all other countries have standardized on the metric system, so the size of what may be called a pint varies depending on local custom.


437254


Pints are commonly used for the sale of milk in the United Kingdom. The label gives both the metric and the imperial volume.


The imperial pint (≈ 568 ml (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millilitre)) is used in the United Kingdom and Ireland and to a limited extent in Commonwealth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) nations. In the United States, two kinds of pint are used: a liquid pint (≈ 473 ml) and a less-common dry pint (≈ 551 ml). Each of these pints is one eighth of its respective gallon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon), but the gallons differ. This difference dates back to 1824, when the British Weights and Measures Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weights_and_Measures_Acts_(UK)) standardized various liquid measures throughout the British Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire), while the United States continued to use the earlier English measure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_units). The imperial pint consists of 20 imperial fluid ounces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_ounce) and the US liquid pint is 16 US fluid ounces. The imperial fluid ounce is about 4% smaller than the US fluid ounce. All of the other former British colonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion), such as Canada, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, converted to the metric system in the 1960s and 1970s; so, while the term pint may still be in common use in these countries, it may no longer refer to the British imperial pint once used throughout the British Empire.
In the United Kingdom, the imperial pint is the mandatory base unit for draught beer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draught_beer) and cider.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-4) Milk sold in returnable containers (such as glass bottles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_milk_bottle)) may be sold by the pint alone and other goods may be sold by the pint if the equivalent metric measure is also given.
Since the majority of countries in the world no longer use American or British imperial units, and most are non-English speaking, a "pint of beer" served in a tavern outside the United Kingdom and the United States may be measured by other standards. In Commonwealth countries it may be a British imperial pint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#Imperial_pint) of 568 ml, in countries serving large numbers of American tourists it might be a US liquid pint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#United_States_liquid_pint) of 473 ml, in many metric countries it is a half-litre of 500 ml, or in some places it is another measure reflecting national and local laws and customs.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-5)
Historically, units called a pint (or the equivalent in the local language) were used across much of Europe, with values varying between countries from less than half a litre to over one litre. Within continental Europe, these pints were replaced with liquid measures based on the metric system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system) during the 19th century. The term is still in limited use in parts of France, where "une pinte" means an imperial quart, which is 2 imperial pints, whereas a pint is "une chopine"—and Central Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe), notably some areas of Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#cite_note-6) and Switzerland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland), where "ein Schoppen" is colloquially used for roughly half a litre. In Spanish holiday resorts frequented by British tourists, 'pint' is often taken to mean a beer glass (especially a dimple mug). Half-pint and pint mugs may therefore be referred to as pinta pequeña ('small pint') and pinta grande ('large pint').

Cheers!

437253


Mmmmmm, beer!

[Donald G. Burns]

I've got a matched pair of adjustable wrenches - one metric and one SAE. I purchased these at Sears about 40 years ago.
David

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I had a good laugh back when I was in the Navy and a shipmate came by the electronics shop asking to borrow a wrench and I held up the SAE and metric adjustable wrenches and asked which he needed. He went off to ask his chief. :eek:

[Chuck Wintle]

I would say i'm a beginner of "fine woodworking", but i've been building stuff for 20 years. Gazeebo Eagle Scout project, deer stands, garage storage, fences, car ports, remove load bearing wall.....

I'm in Wisconsin USA and learned on the imperial system, but i'm wondering if I should start measuring things and using tools in Metric.

Any of you Americans make the switch and wish you did sooner?

Any not so obvious reasons why I should not and just stick to Imperial?

Is Metric more accurate or precise?
its a good idea to be familiar with it but not saying you need to quit using the imperials system

[Chuck Wintle]

After that...I need a pint...of something. :) :D

interestingly in England the EU "allowed" pubs to continue to use the imperial measure of a pint for beer. I guess now they will do as they please.