Routing romex through an inaccessible crawl space: need advice

[Roger Feeley]

background:
My daughters 1860 house has an addition built around 1970. The original house has a stacked stone foundation. The addition has a crawl space maybe 18” high. Entry to the crawl space would be through vents about 6”x12”. I judge that to be no entry at all.

problem:
All outlets for the kitchen are on one 15a circuit which means that my daughter trips the breaker if she uses more than one thing at once.

my solution:
two of the outlets are in an island. The island is fairly close to the cellar. The cabinet under the island would let me make a fairly big access hole to the crawl space. Using string, a magnet and a long pole, I could route romex from the island to the cellar. I think the distance in the crawl space is about 8’.

but:
Code says that I must attach the romex to the joists. As I understand it, I can attach it to the bottom edge of the joists. But I can’t get down there to do it. Anyway, I don’t like the idea of dangling romex any better than an inspector would.

so:
my idea is sort of a running board on steroids. I’m thinking two 1x4’s glued perpendicular to make a T shape for stiffness. I pre-attach pvc conduit.
— I run a pull cord first.
—using the pull cord I pass the running board under the joists. I attach the running board to the bottom of the joist nearest the island. Reach in from the cellar and attach the other end.
— using the pull cord, I pull Romex through the conduit.

I know I’m really not supposed to run romex through conduit. It might be better to pull individual wires.
Im thinking lag screws with washers at each end to spread the force.

Thoughts?

[Clark Hussey]

My thinking is, that you need to cut an access hatch. At some point (now) you are going to need to access it. No sense running electric wire you can’t properly secure.

[Gustav Gabor]

Perhaps using Teck cable or bx cable (armored) would work in your situation. Not sure if your code would require those to be attached to the joists. I use Teck cable in my shop quite a bit as it's very resistant to damage and water.

[Frank Pratt]

The CEC has a provision for fishing cable in an inaccessible space - you don't need to support it. Does the NEC have something similar?

[Mike Henderson]

I have a raised floor house with no access from the exterior. But I do have an access hatch inside one of my closets. But 18 inches of clearance is pretty tight. I don't know if I'd like to be crawling in that kind of space.

I don't know exactly what the clearance is under my house but I know it's more than 18 inches. Next time I have to go down there I'll measure it. It's at least 2 feet and probably more.

Mike

[Roger Feeley]

My thinking is, that you need to cut an access hatch. At some point (now) you are going to need to access it. No sense running electric wire you can’t properly secure.

I think an access hatch is a non-starter. She would just live with it until a planed major remodel in ten years or so.

[Bill Dufour]

cross bow or radio controlled car to get the string from the access hatch to the drop site. They make special cross bows for fishermen that already have the line reel attached. I believe Klien? makes an electricians cross bow.
Bill D.

https://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-06186-Cablecaster-Pulling-Three/dp/B001HWAGRM

[Paul F Franklin]

The CEC has a provision for fishing cable in an inaccessible space - you don't need to support it. Does the NEC have something similar?

Yes, the NEC has a similar exception. Nevertheless, I thinking running MC or better yet liquid tight flexible conduit would be the better way to go.

[Roger Feeley]

cross bow or radio controlled car to get the string from the access hatch to the drop site. They make special cross bows for fishermen that already have the line reel attached. I believe Klien? makes an electricians cross bow.
Bill D.

https://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-06186-Cablecaster-Pulling-Three/dp/B001HWAGRM

i used to know an AT&T guy that had trained a rat to go to a special red light.

[David L Morse]

Yes, the NEC has a similar exception. Nevertheless, I thinking running MC or better yet liquid tight flexible conduit would be the better way to go.

What about UF? It's rated for wet use and is almost as easy to use as NM.

[Roger Feeley]

Yes, the NEC has a similar exception. Nevertheless, I thinking running MC or better yet liquid tight flexible conduit would be the better way to go.

im really warming up to flexible conduit. I knew I would get great suggestions here. As long as I securely anchor both ends in the cabinet and in the cellar, I should be good.

i think this enterprise just got a whole lot easier. I’m thinking that I will use oversized conduit in case I want to run another circuit.

[Roger Feeley]

What about UF? It's rated for wet use and is almost as easy to use as NM.

there might be critters down there. We used to have a Lennox AC and the mice would chew the insulation. Is that still a problem? If so, a little more armor plating might be in order.

[Tom M King]

There's always a way to do it. I'd run conduit. Glue it up with two long sweep elbows. Take a stone out of the foundation for access, or even cut one. Sometimes you have to go around your elbow, and a couple of more, to get back to your thumb. I've installed some pretty long runs of wire in old houses.

[John K Jordan]

.... I think the distance in the crawl space is about 8’.


It's work but I'll tell you what many people did in Oak Ridge TN. A new city of houses went up in a very short time for the Manhattan Project. Most of these houses were built on crawl spaces and some were very tight. (I had an "A" house in 1972 but fortunately there was enough space under for access.) After the war these houses went to private ownership and MANY people got out the picks and shovels and expanded the crawl spaces for storage and even living space. I've been in several that were dug by hand to give 7-8' ceilings, concrete floors, nice walls, heat and air, plumbing and bathrooms. Some people dug for years in their spare time. It was common to leave a wide dirt berm all around the outside of the new basement so the existing foundation would not be disturbed, covering the berm with concrete block or reinforced concrete walls, and building storage cabinets above. People can certainly be resourceful!

The point is compared to these excavations, it might not take much work at all to dig a channel under the floor deep and wide enough to crawl through to run wiring and maintain it as needed.

JKJ

[roger wiegand]

Can you go overhead and drop new wires down from the second floor or attic?

Myself, I'd knock a big enough hole in the foundation to get access and then do whatever needs doing. But then I'm glutton for punishment.

Another option is to run a raceway behind the baseboard or build a small soffit at the ceiling level to hold the wires, that will keep you out of the crawlspace.

[Jim Becker]

I'd try and get conduit between the basement and the island...if you can't just poke it through to where you can get to it at the island side but you can manage to get a fish tape or other such thing from the island to the basement, you can use that to "pull" the conduit through and then run your cable through it.

[Lee Schierer]

I'd try and get conduit between the basement and the island...if you can't just poke it through to where you can get to it at the island side but you can manage to get a fish tape or other such thing from the island to the basement, you can use that to "pull" the conduit through and then run your cable through it.

I agree with this method If the run is less than 10 feet regular 3/4" emt conduit should work nicely if supported at each end.

[Terry Wawro]

During a basement remodel, I had to fish romex through about 20 feet of inaccessible area. I used fiberglass wire puller rods like these to get a nylon string through, then I used the string to pull the wire.
436553
https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Fiberglass-Wire-Pull-Rods/dp/B005LW4CFG

Harbor Freight has a version that less than $10.

[Rod Sheridan]

TECK 90 could be pulled and left sitting on the dirt as long as it's not exposed to mechanical injury, which it wouldn't be in this case.........Rod.

[Curt Harms]

i used to know an AT&T guy that had trained a rat to go to a special red light.

Now THAT is 'thinking outside the box'.

[Rick Potter]

Reminds me of when I used a very small 5 or 6 year old grand daughter to run wire 30' or more through a tiny attic space. At that age, she could climb a rope like a monkey.

She is now 26 almost 5' tall and weighs in at 78#. I still use her occasionally when I don't fit.

[Bill Dufour]

Reminds me of when I used a very small 5 or 6 year old grand daughter to run wire 30' or more through a tiny attic space. At that age, she could climb a rope like a monkey.

She is now 26 almost 5' tall and weighs in at 78#. I still use her occasionally when I don't fit.


Does she remember being in that attic? Is she an electrician now.
Bill D

[Roger Feeley]

Thanks to all who posted. I think I can do this with the emt conduit. Using Jims suggestion.

[Ronald Blue]

Now THAT is 'thinking outside the box'.

Wouldn't that be outside the cage Curt? In my case it would be outside the trap....

[Wade Lippman]

i used to know an AT&T guy that had trained a rat to go to a special red light.

To put up the first bridge across the Niagara river, they had a kite flying contest and gave a prize to the first kid to get a kite across. Tied a rope to the kite string, and then a cable to the rope, etc.

I think UF would be fine. Do mice eat it?

[Tom Bender]

Two other approaches might be easier.

Change the hungry appliances for some less so.

Run wire mold from someplace else to feed something.

[Roger Feeley]

Two other approaches might be easier.

Change the hungry appliances for some less so.

Run wire mold from someplace else to feed something.

I had that thought but the hungry appliances are central to my daughters cooking.
Vitamix blender could be a candidate but she really drank the Vitamix coolaide.
microwave at 1600 watts.
any sort of electric skillet

and she has the usual assortment of other electric gizmos.
kitchenaide mixer
food processor

but those top three tend to get used together.

[Tom Bender]

Yeah the microwave needs it's own circuit.

Ok how about adding a UPS (battery backup). The 15 amp circuit can charge it but it can deliver more power for short intervals.

You'll want one that will deliver about 30 amps but not draw more than 15.

[Jim Becker]

Adding the circuit is the best overall choice, despite the fact that its' a pain to do so. Modern code requires a minimum of two 20 amp utility circuits (with GFCI) for kitchens anyway. Theoretically there should be staggered outlets on alternative circuits so two "hungry" appliances can run side by side, but that's not always practical for a retrofit that doesn't involve gutting the space.

[Jerome Stanek]

If you go MC cable I would get it with 2 circuit MC cable.

[Bill Dufour]

Not sure of the name but you might use the flex metal conduit that is covered by liquid tite flex conduit,. To keep it dry and rodent proof. Cheaper to use regular metal conduit in the middle part. Do not blame the rodents for chewing on everything. They have to grind their teeth down because their teeth keep growing until the day they die. If they do not their lower incissors can grow up and over into their skull and kill them.
Bill D

[Al Launier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B30JgxuGLrM

[Roger Feeley]

Adding the circuit is the best overall choice, despite the fact that its' a pain to do so. Modern code requires a minimum of two 20 amp utility circuits (with GFCI) for kitchens anyway. Theoretically there should be staggered outlets on alternative circuits so two "hungry" appliances can run side by side, but that's not always practical for a retrofit that doesn't involve gutting the space.

well, there’s no question that somebody cut some corners with this kitchen. There’s a microwave cubby but it doesn’t have its own circuit.

with access only fro the main cellar through a 12” gap in the stone foundation, the island is my best bet because it’s closer. I also have some latitude in what I can do in the cabinet underneath.

I do plan to run two dedicated 20a circuits which is overkill but, compared with my time, wire is cheap.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, you'll need to do the best you can with what you have to work with. Your new circuit(s) will be very helpful with the larger appliances and the smaller ones should work fine on existing.

[lowell holmes]

I have to post this. In Texas, we run electrical wires in the attic.

[Mike Henderson]

I have to post this. In Texas, we run electrical wires in the attic.

Knob and Tube (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring)?:)

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

I have to post this. In Texas, we run electrical wires in the attic.

A bit awkward for an island?
Bil lD

[Bruce Lowekamp]

Two dedicated 20A circuits definitely isn't overkill! Minimum standard would be three (one for microwave). Honestly, if you could do it I'd run three: one for the microwave, two general purpose, and move the 15A over to the refrigerator (if you could rewire the existing circuits two the new ones). Dishwasher and garbage disposal also have one (or two) dedicated circuits, although IMHO if I had to cut a corner I would have them on the of the 20A circuits.

Bruce

[lowell holmes]

I should have said Galveston County Texas. It is a flood prone area, so under the house is not done anymore. There are not many houses with basements.

[Roger Feeley]

Two dedicated 20A circuits definitely isn't overkill! Minimum standard would be three (one for microwave). Honestly, if you could do it I'd run three: one for the microwave, two general purpose, and move the 15A over to the refrigerator (if you could rewire the existing circuits two the new ones). Dishwasher and garbage disposal also have one (or two) dedicated circuits, although IMHO if I had to cut a corner I would have them on the of the 20A circuits.

Bruce
bruce,
I don’t think I can run power to anyplace but the island. It has only the stovetop and two outlets. Routing power to anyplace else in that kitchen means going up exterior walls. For a weekend warrior like me, that’s a whole nuther challenge.

Baby steps first. I’m going to run conduit to the island and power each of the two outlets with their own 20a circuits.

question, the thing that scares me about going up the exterior walls is fishing between sheet rock and insulation. Is there some gadget I can put on a fish tape that would Make it transmit something that another gizmo would read?

[Tom M King]

Best things for going up walls are the thin fiberglass rods. You can push them a lot easier than a fish tape.

[Ron Selzer]

"problem:
All outlets for the kitchen are on one 15a circuit which means that my daughter trips the breaker if she uses more than one thing at once.

my solution:
two of the outlets are in an island. The island is fairly close to the cellar."


pull three circuits to the island, one for each receptacle
third one connect to the existing feed, then open up another receptacle and split the existing wiring by terminating the feed to that receptacle.
you now have four circuits feeding the kitchen, 2 at the island,
the existing circuit feeding part of the kitchen
and the third circuit feeding the other part of the kitchen circuits depending on where you split the existing receptacle circuit at.

I did this for my mother back in the 80's so she could use her electric skillet, microwave and toaster at the same time.
by adding two more circuits to the kitchen at one existing receptacle and back feeding the original circuit AFTER splitting the existing circuit into two seperate circuits.

[Jim Becker]

Ron, I believe the challenge here is getting that fourth circuit anywhere...access...since the crawl space isn't "crawlable".

[Roger Feeley]

Ron, I believe the challenge here is getting that fourth circuit anywhere...access...since the crawl space isn't "crawlable".
Jim,
Ron brought up a really interesting point. I should pull all the kitchen outlets out and trace the route. I doubt it but I might get lucky and find that the existing island circuit is somewhere in the middle. if it is, I can interrupt the chain at the island and give some outlets their own circuit.

I kinda doubt that I’m that lucky but it’s worth a try.

[Frank Pratt]

Best things for going up walls are the thin fiberglass rods. You can push them a lot easier than a fish tape.

We use them a lot & they are great. They're called Fish Sticks.

[Jerome Stanek]

We use them a lot & they are great. They're called Fish Sticks.

UM I used to love fish sticks when I was a kid

[Jim Becker]

Jim,
Ron brought up a really interesting point. I should pull all the kitchen outlets out and trace the route. I doubt it but I might get lucky and find that the existing island circuit is somewhere in the middle. if it is, I can interrupt the chain at the island and give some outlets their own circuit.

I kinda doubt that I’m that lucky but it’s worth a try.

Yea, if the actually flow through or under the island where they are reachable, that would be a good thing. I thought he meant to pull them somehow "new". My bad...

[Roger Feeley]

Yea, if the actually flow through or under the island where they are reachable, that would be a good thing. I thought he meant to pull them somehow "new". My bad...

It would be fairly simple to tell. The island has a junction box at the bottom of the cabinet where the electricity enters from the crawl space to power the gas stove and two outlets. If there is a single set of wires, then the island is at the end of the line. If there are two sets then there’s something downstream and the game is afoot.

[Jim Becker]

True, I missed earlier that the J-box was there.

[Roger Feeley]

True, I missed earlier that the J-box was there.
Jim, you are being diplomatic. I failed to reveal the presence of the box. Asking for advice when the experts can’t see the full situation can be a frustrating litany of “good idea, but....”. Honestly, I never expected that this thread would take on such a life.

You have no idea how much help the Creek has been to me these last few years. I had plenty of friends back in Kansas City that I could call on. Here in the DC area, I have friends but they are all thumbs and very wound up in their work.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, threads like this put a little "spark" in your step. LOL :) :D

[Ron Selzer]

It would be fairly simple to tell. The island has a junction box at the bottom of the cabinet where the electricity enters from the crawl space to power the gas stove and two outlets. If there is a single set of wires, then the island is at the end of the line. If there are two sets then there’s something downstream and the game is afoot.


The Island has to be feed from some where, I understood the kitchen only has one circuit breaker for the whole kitchen. If this is true then open another receptacle in the kitchen and remove one set of wires from it and wire nut them. Now you should have some dead receptacle(s) hopefully the island is no longer live. IF so, then connect a new circuit to wires feeding the island and you now have 2 circuits in the kitchen. If there is two wires in and out of the junction box then by splitting them and splitting wires off at existing receptacles you will end up with three circuits feeding the kitchen.

REMEMBER you have to remove wires at existing receptacles FIRST, then split and hook up the new circuits.
Ron

[Charlie Velasquez]

It would be fairly simple to tell. The island has a junction box at the bottom of the cabinet where the electricity enters from the crawl space to power the gas stove and two outlets. If there is a single set of wires, then the island is at the end of the line. If there are two sets then there’s something downstream and the game is afoot.

Wouldn’t it be just the opposite? If the island is at the end of the run, then by pulling three circuits you can put some of the wall circuits on the third pulled circuit. If the island is the first in the series you gain nothing.