Skew rabbet woes

[Michael J Evans]

Hi all
Hope everyone had a good 4th.
I picked up a 1-1/2" wood skew rabbet from eBay. I have never used a rabbet plane or even handled one. But it looked to be in good condition and for $19 shipped I was willing to try. Anyways it arrived looking good. The right side is slight cupped (hollow long the length) but not bad. Anyways my excitement overcame me and I lapped the bottom flat and squarish to the right side,made a new wedge and sharpened up the iron and went to work.... I watched a number of YouTube videos and am not sure what I have wrong , but basically instead of continuing to create a groove or rabbet and keeping the shoulder.it Continues to cut a new shoulder and or a stepped shoulder as it goes down. I adjusted the iron to just microscopically proud from the side to way to much and I continue to get the same result. Everytime I start the cut, it is just removing a tiny bit from the shoulder / wall. The skew isn't exact to the mortise angle, but it is very close.
What am I doing wrong? At this point I'm just thinking that maybe I should've invested in fillister instead.
Thanks in advance.
Michael

[Rob Luter]

Are you using a batten to guide the plane?

[Jim Matthews]

Here's a video from Bob Rozaieski's excellent podcast.

https://brfinewoodworking.com/video-how-to-make-grooves-rabbets-and-dados-with-hand-planes/

[Warren Mickley]

Try putting a straightedge along the right side very near the bottom. It should rock just slightly showing that there is clearance. It needs to clear the whole side of the plane, not just the part near the iron.

Also check the right side edge of the iron. We usually put a small relief angle like 10 degrees on the edge to make sure it is not rubbing against the wall. And make sure that the side of the iron does not stick out more above the point than it does at the point.

Make sure point of skew is sharp. You have a clearance issue; you have to find it.

[Charles Guest]

Set a bevel gauge to the skewed mouth, mark the iron, grind and hone it to the exact angle. Set it a little proud on the right side, run it against a batten, if it still won't work the body of the plane is warped - cupped, twisted, bowed, etc. maybe some of all of these. You can fix this, but it'll likely just keep moving over the course of the seasons. I lose interest in them at this point - the tail begins to wag the dog. I have an ECE adjustable mouth wedged rebate plane (not skewed), that cuts perfectly every time. This plane can be run both directions. When going cross grain, you just have to sharpen up and close the mouth down a bit. A skewed iron is no panacea. This plane has stayed dead flat/square for literally years. I may have lucked up and gotten a good one, but I'm surely thankful that I did.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi all
Hope everyone had a good 4th.
I picked up a 1-1/2" wood skew rabbet from eBay. I have never used a rabbet plane or even handled one. But it looked to be in good condition and for $19 shipped I was willing to try. Anyways it arrived looking good. The right side is slight cupped (hollow long the length) but not bad. Anyways my excitement overcame me and I lapped the bottom flat and squarish to the right side,made a new wedge and sharpened up the iron and went to work.... I watched a number of YouTube videos and am not sure what I have wrong , but basically instead of continuing to create a groove or rabbet and keeping the shoulder.it Continues to cut a new shoulder and or a stepped shoulder as it goes down. I adjusted the iron to just microscopically proud from the side to way to much and I continue to get the same result. Everytime I start the cut, it is just removing a tiny bit from the shoulder / wall. The skew isn't exact to the mortise angle, but it is very close.
What am I doing wrong? At this point I'm just thinking that maybe I should've invested in fillister instead.
Thanks in advance.
Michael

With a cupped side the iron is never going to register to the same spot. The cupped side of the plane will always hold the blade away from the prior shoulder and cut a new one.

The skew of the blade not being exact to the plane body is a different problem. Close, even very close, only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades and nuclear warfare, not in skewed iron rabbet/rebate planes.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Happen to have one made by Auburn, of New York....No. 181, 1.25" width, skewed Rebate plane....
436408
Right side..
436409
Left side..
436410
sole...
436411
Iron....each corner does "poke out" a bit....about the thickness of a piece of paper..
436412
Works best when the rebate is already started, or, if a batten is used. It can start it's own rebate, IF you tilt it to the side a bit, and get a "V" started, THEN bring it upright to mill the rebate

Beach body, about 100+ yrs old.....hasn't "moved" for me, yet.......

[Steve Voigt]

There are a number of good suggestions in this thread, but I'll add what I think is the most likely cause: you don't want the right (leading) side of the iron to be sharp. On a skew plane, the skew forces the plane into the wall (to the right), and if the side is sharp, it will just keep cutting. First make sure the right side has a slight relief as Warren said, then drag that edge lightly across a fine stone a couple times to keep it from cutting.

The other thing is that it's much more difficult (though not impossible) to freehand rabbets with a skew plane. The skew rabbet is best used with a batten. If you want to use it freehand, either practice a lot or get yourself a square-mouthed rabbet plane.

[Jim Koepke]

Michael, Here is a post you might find helpful > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242156

The 26th post in linear order shows one way a rabbet can be cut freehand.

jtk

[chris carter]

The right side is slight cupped (hollow long the length) but not bad.

There's your problem right there. Straighten it.

[Michael J Evans]

Are you using a batten to guide the plane?

No, I was just trying freehand.

[Michael J Evans]

Well gentleman, I went to work tonight. I trued up the right side best I could (not the best yet) but the first inch or so up is dead square to the sole and flat along its length. I also put the bevel gauge on the skew of the plane mouth and then against the iron. The skew angle of the iron is quite a bit off from the plane mouth. I've attached some pictures of the plane in its current condition. One thing Warren and I believe Steve mentioned is a relief angle on the iron. I tried to snap a photo of it. The left (higher side) would be the belly of the iron. Whereas the right side in that pic would be the top (bevel side) it appears to be at a angle, but seems backwards from what Warrren and Steve described... I would think you would want the relief on the belly side, not the top side? I also spent some time trying to regrind the iron to the actual correct skew angle, I haven't finished so cannot report to use yet. But expect I'll be making shavings tomorrow. Also I tried to take a pic of how much the iron projects from each side, I measured it with a rule and it was about 1-1/2 , 1/32nds. 436478436479436480436481436482

[Jim Koepke]

Michael, you have lost me in all the talk of belly side and such.

This type of plane is usually of a bevel down design. All the bevels should be on the same side of the iron. The side of the blade at the front when moving forward during the cutting should be flat. All the sides slope toward the back at varying degrees less than 90º.

As Steve said, you do not want the side of the blade cutting in to the edge. It is somewhat of a guiding edge.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

436478

If this plane was giving me problems on the next try my thoughts might turn to doing a little flattening on the blade bedding.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

Michael, you have lost me in all the talk of belly side and such.

This type of plane is usually of a bevel down design. All the bevels should be on the same side of the iron. The side of the blade at the front when moving forward during the cutting should be flat. All the sides slope toward the back at varying degrees less than 90º.

As Steve said, you do not want the side of the blade cutting in to the edge. It is somewhat of a guiding edge.

jtk

Jim I mean that in the picture the high side would be on the (what I call) belly or flat side of the iron (without the bevel). Whereas the low side would be on the bevel side of the iron (what you sharpen). Maybe I am using the terms incorrectly?

[Michael J Evans]

Update,
Got everything tuned up and skew matches the angle of the bevel gauge. With a batten I was able to cut a nice shoulder, but not square.
For some reason, even thought the iron angle now matches the angle of the mortise, it seems like the skew is even further off. What I mean by this is that now when I advance the iron, the right cutting tip sticks out way further then the left side of the skew. It the total cutting portion of the iron is not above the plane or even close. I would probably have to have the tip sticking up 1/8" for the whole cutting surface to be present. So I was only able to cut about a 1/4" rebate. I tried to cut a 1/2" wide rebate, but since the skew was so great it only cut a V groove near the batten and then stopped after a few strokes. I will post some pics tomorrow.

[Michael J Evans]

While we're talking about rebate planes. Do the current model stanley 12-978 work worth a darn? Reviews seem to say they need a ton of tuning, anyone with actual experience? Would I be better of trying to purchase a older model Stanley or even a wood fillister?

[Jim Koepke]

For some reason, even thought the iron angle now matches the angle of the mortise, it seems like the skew is even further off.

You might have better results with marking the blades bevel angle with the blade in the plane. Some like to use a product called dykem blue on the blade and then a scratch awl to mark a line. For a one time situation you could cover the flat side of the blade with a felt tip marker to apply a scratch mark or mark the blade with a fine point marker. Then grind so the bevel is parallel to the line. Adjust as needed with a bench stone. The edge of the blade needs to be parallel to the sole or it will not cut square.


While we're talking about rebate planes. Do the current model stanley 12-978 work worth a darn? Reviews seem to say they need a ton of tuning, anyone with actual experience? Would I be better of trying to purchase a older model Stanley or even a wood fillister?

My preference is my Record #778. My knowledge of the Stanley 12-978 is nil. Is it possible for you to inspect the plane before purchase?

If there were a current need for a rebate plane my choice would likely be one of the Veritas offerings. The left and right hand skew rebate planes seem to be calling me at times.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

You might have better results with marking the blades bevel angle with the blade in the plane. Some like to use a product called dykem blue on the blade and then a scratch awl to mark a line. For a one time situation you could cover the flat side of the blade with a felt tip marker to apply a scratch mark or mark the blade with a fine point marker. Then grind so the bevel is parallel to the line. Adjust as needed with a bench stone. The edge of the blade needs to be parallel to the sole or it will not cut square.



My preference is my Record #778. My knowledge of the Stanley 12-978 is nil. Is it possible for you to inspect the plane before purchase?

If there were a current need for a rebate plane my choice would likely be one of the Veritas offerings. The left and right hand skew rebate planes seem to be calling me at times.

jtk

Thanks Jim. I marked it with a sharpie and then took a awl and scribed a precise line with my awl. I then ground it close with my grinder and finished off the final little bit by hand. I did try to put a semi hollow grind in it with the grinder, may have messed up that portion as I just have a cheap 6" grinder with a dinky fence. But once I was finished the skew angle matched the bevel gauge angle.

Does the actual bevel angle matter at all? Or just that the cutting portion matches the mortise angle of the plane?

I don't have a particular need for a rabbet plane, just practicing making some boxes and wanted to try setting the lid and bottom in. I know this can be done in other ways as well, I just figured the rabbet plane would come in handy. I seem to read and see quite a few videos, where they call the rabbet plane "essential". In regards to veritas plane, I am sure it works fantastic. Its just about 150 more than I would ever want to spend. My most expensive tool ive purchase to date was 190. Maybe one day I'll treat myself.

[Jim Koepke]

Does the actual bevel angle matter at all? Or just that the cutting portion matches the mortise angle of the plane?

I don't have a particular need for a rabbet plane, just practicing making some boxes and wanted to try setting the lid and bottom in. I know this can be done in other ways as well, I just figured the rabbet plane would come in handy. I seem to read and see quite a few videos, where they call the rabbet plane "essential".

The most important factor of the bevel angel is that it is at least ~10º less than the bedding angle of the plane. The wood can bulge up slightly behind the blade as it is being cut. Without a bit of relief behind the edge the blade could ride up and out of the cut.

Oops, forgot about the usefulness of rabbet planes. They are useful for setting in panels or even making panels that will go in to frames for doors or sides of cabinets.

It all depends on what you want to make.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Give me a day....I'll do a bit of picture taking with the No.181

One other plane to consider.....the Stanley No. 45......as well as the #78.
436545
On my skew rebate plane....the corners do stick out a hair....because the wood corner has been rounded over from use.

I'll dig it out later today....and find out what the bevel's angle is....and such. I usually try to keep the edge of the iron and the edge of the plane the same.

[Jim Matthews]

"What I mean by this is that now when I advance the iron, the right cutting tip sticks out way further then the left side of the skew. It the total cutting portion of the iron is not above the plane or even close. I would probably have to have the tip sticking up 1/8" for the whole cutting surface to be present."

You've fallen into the same trap laid for us all: how to sharpen something with multiple compound angles.

I thrashed around with this same problem, rehabilitating a Dado plane. My solution was to file the blade - while it was inserted in the plane body.

The irons in my planes are antique and quite "soft".

Not just marking out contours *use the plane body* as a guide. Masking tape covers the sole and sides of the plane, the file rides flat on those surfaces.

Once a clear "flat" is established, the iron can be honed on finer stones.

***

One caution - the tape will wear and require replacement.

[steven c newman]

Not feeling too well...but...I tried out the Auburn No. 181, 1.25" rebate plane...to see what it has that works. I set up a test track, pine, as there wasn't enough Ash sitting around.

Marked a line about 1/2" in from the edge.
436593
Deepened the line, for the plane to follow..
436594
Then ran the plane for a while..
436595
That big, old knot was affecting the grain a bit
436596
Took the plane apart ( edge needed a touch-up, anyway)
436597
A single, 30 degree bevel....
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Wedge is angled to match the way the iron sits.....there is a gap right behind the edge, though
436599
While the side on the cutting side/cheek is flat...including the iron..
436600
The area of the sole ahead of the iron is higher than the back end...yet from the iron on back, it is level.....I guess so the iron will be easy to start the cut.

Twas a Barn-find, for $10.....seems to work well enough....

[Michael J Evans]

Thanks Steven for the pics.
I am going to regrind the skew angle. I'm not sure if this was a better way to match the skew of the plane, but I advanced the iron until the entire cutting edge was above the sole. I then tightened the wedge. I then took my bevel square and referenced the right side of the plane and then ran the beam right up against the actual iron. I think this should be the most accurate way to math the skew angle, because I am actually referencing the cutting edge in the plane.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Steven for the pics.
I am going to regrind the skew angle. I'm not sure if this was a better way to match the skew of the plane, but I advanced the iron until the entire cutting edge was above the sole. I then tightened the wedge. I then took my bevel square and referenced the right side of the plane and then ran the beam right up against the actual iron. I think this should be the most accurate way to math the skew angle, because I am actually referencing the cutting edge in the plane.

This may be over thinking it. The blade only needs to match the sole. The reason setting a bevel gauge to the mouth of the plane didn't work is the blade is also skewed on its axis. It is a compound skew angle. The bed to math is a single angle.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

My solution was to file the blade - while it was inserted in the plane body.

The irons in my planes are antique and quite "soft".

Not just marking out contours *use the plane body* as a guide. Masking tape covers the sole and sides of the plane, the file rides flat on those surfaces.

Once a clear "flat" is established, the iron can be honed on finer stones.

***

One caution - the tape will wear and require replacement.

+1 to Jim suggestion . Trying to understand the geometry of the blade and mouth of the body separately creates unnecessary complexity. Let the body to plane serve as your guide as in the final analysis that's where the rubber meets the road in use. BTW, you're definitely not alone – trying to plane clean, square, flat rabbits, either with a fenced or unfenced rabbit plane is always a matter of fractions between success and failure, that for me at least, typically requires plenty of trial and error to get the exactly correct set up. This is the reason electric router's were invented!

I admire your determination and persistence. Making vintage hand tools work to their highest potential often requires a frustrating process of of fettling. This frustration is a big reason why contemporary tools from Lee Valley and Lee Nielsen that work perfectly were out of the box are so attractive.

Best, Mike

[Michael J Evans]

[/I]

+1 to Jim suggestion . Trying to understand the geometry of the blade and mouth of the body separately creates unnecessary complexity. Let the body to plane serve as your guide as in the final analysis that's where the rubber meets the road in use. BTW, you're definitely not alone – trying to plane clean, square, flat rabbits, either with a fenced or unfenced rabbit plane is always a matter of fractions between success and failure, that for me at least, typically requires plenty of trial and error to get the exactly correct set up. This is the reason electric router's were invented!

I admire your determination and persistence. Making vintage hand tools work to their highest potential often requires a frustrating process of of fettling. This frustration is a big reason why contemporary tools from Lee Valley and Lee Nielsen that work perfectly were out of the box are so attractive.

Best, Mike

Thanks Mike
Sometimes my determination is / can be a double edged sword. I hate giving up on a challenge and am really motivated to thoroughly understand a subject. But I've went too far in my pursuit of perfection and ruined a perfectly usable tool or didn't know when to stop pushing. In regards to ruining a tool, I just had a post about a lot of tools I picked up. It had a fairly nice try plane in it. I went to work on it last night and over planed the bottom (removed too much stock) in pursuit to get it perfectly flat and square. Instead of stepping back thinking to myself where to plane to get rid of the twist, I just took another shaving here and there, so on. Stopped to grab a been came back and looked at it to realize I planed way to much off the bottom. Now I am thinking it may need a sole.

[Michael J Evans]

I want to update this thread. Since my original post many months ago, I basically gave up on ever using this plane. I tried regrinding to match the angle of the mortise, the angle of the actual bed, the angle of the mouth and then when it still didn't work I threw it under the bench.

I had ended up buying a stanley 78 and have been using that ( which works great) until a couple weeks ago when I snapped the lever cap in half... I wanted to finish up my box project and it hit me today to try the skew rebate again.
So after another two grindings ( I've wasted most the iron at this point), I finally got it right.

The suggestion was in a previous post, I just didn't understand it.

So the fix to get the iron skew angle correct (drum roll.......)

Mark back of iron with sharpie, insert into plane, advance iron to about 1/16 proud. Took a old chisel, put the flat side on the bottom of the plane and scribed a line across the sharpie and re ground to that line. I went very slow and tried to freehand a hollow, which mostly worked. Once I had that angle ground correct, I freehand set the mk2 sharpening jig and gave it a quick honing.

Plane works great now and I got to finish my little box project.

PS: compound angles can kiss me @$$

[Michael J Evans]

One more thing.
For future sharpening. Is the iron supposed to be held straight,where the skew is point straight ahead or square across the stone (cutting edge 90 to side of stone)?

[Jim Matthews]

One more thing.
For future sharpening. Is the iron supposed to be held straight,where the skew is point straight ahead or square across the stone (cutting edge 90 to side of stone)?

I don't follow the question.
Perhaps a picture will help.

Congrats on getting this running.

[Charles Guest]

One more thing.
For future sharpening. Is the iron supposed to be held straight,where the skew is point straight ahead or square across the stone (cutting edge 90 to side of stone)?

Cutting edge oriented 90* to the edge of the stone is the easiest (IMO) and less prone to changing the skew angle. Hone more frequently than you otherwise might. You want to minimise the time on the stones during any one particular session.