Gas vs electric heat

[Wolf Kiessling]

The last few months, I have hear several people ( not on this forum )say that if you are installing a new heating system, house or shop, doesn't matter, you should go with an electric system rathern than a natural gas one because of the skyrocketing price of natural gas.

I have been saying this is a bunch of malarky because so many of the electric utility companies are primarily using natural gas to generate their electricity so when the price of gas goes up the price of electricity goes up correspondingly. Also, there seems to be a concerted effort by the various energy providers to increase natural gas production and possibly improve he pipe line system that delivers it. Because of this, I believe the current high price of natural gas is a short term problem that ought to be remedies within a couple of years.

If my thinking is correct, then installing a natural gas instead of electrical system would make economic sense because the price of gas is generally much less than the cost of electricity. There are, of course, other factors that come into play when installing a heating system, such as installation cost, availability of energy, etc, but I'm only looking at one factor and that is the operating cost of the system which is determined by the price of the gas or electricity.

If my thinking is wrong, I would appreciate being corrected.......

[Bob Weisner]

How much is the electric rate per Kilowatt hour?

[Gary Whitt]

If you have basically mild winters like I do, electric will be fine and probably the cheapest.

If you have cold winters, propane would be my choice.

NG has too much price fluctuation.
Oil fluctuates, too, tho not as bad; oil is very dirty and requires cleaning of the pilot light and filter changes.

[Bob Weisner]

A coal -fired stove is another option.

[Frank Pellow]

This very much depends on where you live and when you are doing the comparison.

We used to have an electric furnace in my house and, 15 years ago, switched to natural gas. Since then, we have saved a lot of money. But, it looks like this winter, my costs would have been less if I had stuck with electricity.

[Howard Norman]

I believe your thinking is correct unless you live near a large hydroelectric plant where the cost of electricity is not influenced by basic energy costs. There may be a lag in the increased costs of electricity due to basic energy costs but it will happen.

Howard

[Frank Hagan]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll first say that I am a national service manager for a gas fired heating appliance company, so my personal preference is for gas fired appliances. But I understand the argument for electric heater use in a shop.

Gas is still cheaper, at .87 per therm, than electricity in my area (at .08 per KWH). You can do the math yourself; 1 KWH = 3412 BTU/HR. 1 Therm = 100,000 BTU/HR.

Taking an example of a 25,000 BTU/HR heater someone recently asked about, it would take .25 of a therm using natural gas (about .22 per hour). Dividing the 25,000 BTU/HR by 3412 to get the equivalent KWH rating you would need in an electric heater, you come up with 7.32 KWH. At .08 per KWH, the electric heater would cost .58.

But wait, its a bit more complicated. The electric heater is 100% efficient ... all of the heat it produces is put into the room. If the gas appliance is a vented one, like the Hot Dawg heaters people use, then its really anywhere from 80% - 85% efficient. So to get that 25,000 BTU/HR in the shop, you need to burn more gas ... about 30,000 BTU/HR for a 85% efficient unit, because 15% of the heat is going out the vent. The math still works out ... 26 cents per hour versus .58.

But its even more complicated than that. Unless its a direct vent appliance, that Hot Dawg type heater has to have a supply of fresh combustion air. You can't totally seal the shop into what's called "tight construction", because if you don't supply fresh air to the gas fired heater, you may start getting vague flu-like symptoms. You won't realize what's happening at first, and blame it on a cold. Or maybe dust in the shop is affecting you. You may only get headaches for a while, and not know the source, but it seems like its taking its toll ... you are tired all the time. You are a victim of carbon monoxide poisoning. A simple blood test will tell you that, but your doctor won't think of checking. The invisible, odorless gas is a by-product of all gas fired appliances, and the fresh air requirements as well as the venting requirements are absolutely essential, or you may eventually suffer the fate of the 200+ people each year in this country who have a CO induced disability or death.

But for the sake of this argument, let's just talk about the cost of energy. There is some heat loss associated with having to provide that combustion air. For that 25,000 BTU/HR heater, you need an opening in the wall that is at least 7" square inches at the floor level, and then another one at the ceiling level. If you put hardware cloth or louvers on those openings to keep out vermin, you generally have to double the size. Now you have a screened vent with 14 square inches at the floor and the cieling. A lot of cold air will come in those vents. You don't need them with electric heat.

There are gas appliances that are direct vent appliances ... with combustion sealed off from the room, and a duct providing the fresh combustion air directly from outside. You avoid the air vents in the wall. You get the full benefit of the 85% combustion, and you can weatherstrip and seal the room to your heart's content. But they are expensive. So you have to amortize out using a heater that costs $5,000 to install over a bank of electric heaters that cost $2,500.

There are also gas appliances that are "ventless" ... a misnomer, because what it really means is that the flue products, including the silent killer, CO gas, are discharged into the room. They should be called "poisonous gas re-breathers". They are also rated at close to 100% efficient. But they require ... absolutely require ... fresh combustion air. So you still are going to take a hit on the energy cost heating air that is circulating in and then out of your shop, heating the great outdoors.

Woodworkers that spray oil-based finishes or use chemicals such as thinner, naptha, etc., should make sure they have fresh air circulation anyway. An electric element can ignite flammable vapor almost as easily as a pilot light, electronic sparker or hot surface ignitor. The good news is that you need a lot of vapor in the air to get a combustible mixture.

All that being said, gas is usually cheaper than electricity. Natural gas would have to double in price to meet electricity in my area.

There is a basic flaw in your argument. They do make electricity with natural gas in "green" California, but most electricity in this country is generated using coal, which is not tied to any of the other fossil fuels in cost.

[Jim Becker]

Frank makes a good point...there are a ton of variables. An electric heat pump in a mild climate installed in an efficiently insulated, draft-free home will be extremely well behaved in the energy consumption department if it's correctly maintained. The same unit in a very cold environment may be very expensive if the "emergency coils" kick in when the heat-exchange process can't keep up with the cold by itself. The same logic applies to other fuels...one can be more economical than another in different geographies and depending on the type of system, quality of it's installation and the structure it's residing in. So many choices...

BTW, Robert Tarr just told me that the local wood supplier is getting $250 a cord right now. Last year it was $175. Sheesh! 'Glad I added that insulation!

[Joe Pelonio]

Gas was always cheaper but lately it really depends on where you are and the market fluctuations. With the trees where I live causing power outages several times a year I'm glad to have gas, the generator has to only run a fan as opposed to a heating element. When the last kid moves out and we get a smaller house I'll probably put in a heat pump and supplement with whatever it comes with, and possibly a pellet stove.
I'm getting tired of paying $250/month winter gas bill which is mainly for the heat (gas stove and water heater too, but electric dryer).

[Bob Weisner]

Gas was always cheaper but lately it really depends on where you are and the market fluctuations. With the trees where I live causing power outages several times a year I'm glad to have gas, the generator has to only run a fan as opposed to a heating element. When the last kid moves out and we get a smaller house I'll probably put in a heat pump and supplement with whatever it comes with, and possibly a pellet stove.
I'm getting tired of paying $250/month winter gas bill which is mainly for the heat (gas stove and water heater too, but electric dryer).

Only $250.00 ??? A few years ago, we had electric heat and the electric bill was $850.00 for one month!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Rich Stewart]

I put one of them propane heaters that screws onto your gas grill bottle in my shop. I looked at the warning tag and the only thing it said was make sure there is ventilation because it uses air too. Do these things put out any kind of noxious gasses that i need to be concerned about?

[Wolf Kiessling]

There is a basic flaw in your argument. They do make electricity with natural gas in "green" California, but most electricity in this country is generated using coal, which is not tied to any of the other fossil fuels in cost.
************************************************** *******
I checked with my electrical untility company, Cotton Electric which is a member of the Touchstone Energy Group, and was informed that 60 percent of their electricity is generated using natural gas while 40 percent is coal. This is why I made the argument I did.

I'm not sure what my kph rate is. It doesn't say on my bill and they use some kind of "multiplier". If I divide the billed amount by usage it comes to about .113 cents.

The heating system I am mainly referring to is a central unit, split system (AC and heat) of which I have one for the house and a separate one for the shop building.

What prompted me to really make the intial post is that my step son just had one of these systems installed in his house and I used the argument I stated above to convince him to go with gas heat instead of electric.

[Frank Hagan]

I put one of them propane heaters that screws onto your gas grill bottle in my shop. I looked at the warning tag and the only thing it said was make sure there is ventilation because it uses air too. Do these things put out any kind of noxious gasses that i need to be concerned about?

Yes, but the "adequate air" thing will keep you safe if you have the ventilation. CO gas is almost neutrally boyant, just slightly heavier than air, so it moves easily with the air currents in the shop. If you know a HVAC technician with a combustion analyzer, he can test for it (but he has to know what he's doing ... most analyzers test the RISE in CO, so he should turn it on outside, get the "background reading" and then walk into your shop after its been warmed by the heater. He'll then get a more accurate reading in parts per million).

But, if you have been having headaches or flu symptoms since you started using it, or feel more fatigued, you might ask your doctor for a blood test for CO levels. The cure is plenty of fresh air, and in severe cases, a hyperbolic chamber to force oxygen back into your blood. There is some evidence that low level exposure over a long period of time may be damaging in other ways, but most people feel fine once the offending CO is removed from their environment.

[Frank Hagan]

There is a basic flaw in your argument. They do make electricity with natural gas in "green" California, but most electricity in this country is generated using coal, which is not tied to any of the other fossil fuels in cost.
************************************************** *******
I checked with my electrical untility company, Cotton Electric which is a member of the Touchstone Energy Group, and was informed that 60 percent of their electricity is generated using natural gas while 40 percent is coal. This is why I made the argument I did.

I'm not sure what my kph rate is. It doesn't say on my bill and they use some kind of "multiplier". If I divide the billed amount by usage it comes to about .113 cents.

The heating system I am mainly referring to is a central unit, split system (AC and heat) of which I have one for the house and a separate one for the shop building.

What prompted me to really make the intial post is that my step son just had one of these systems installed in his house and I used the argument I stated above to convince him to go with gas heat instead of electric.

Natural gas is often used by utilities trying to meet some EPA air standards, so your utility may be in the process of switching over to get cleaner.

For a complete home install, I would always recommend natural gas over electric because the installation costs are going to be about the same. And historically, and as far as I can see out about 65 years based on proven reserves of natural gas in the US and Canada, it is likely to stay that way. If you can add a shop to your home system, the incremental costs are not too bad.

I'm very concerned that the new energy bill, offering rebates to replace your home heating equipment with one that's "more efficient", will simply cost consumers money without saving energy. For people with the highest heating costs who use hydronic boilers for radiator, baseboard or radiant tubing heating, such as those in the mid-Atlantic and New England areas, installing one of the new "99% Efficient!" gas boilers will not get them any higher efficiencies than their old 84% efficient boiler. But the Federal tax incentive and marketing folks are sure to blur the distinction.

[Jim Becker]

Frank, we have had a rebate available for years from PECO...I used it to reduce the cost of our new system by $400 back in 2003. We are using noticably less gas (based on consumption numbers) than we used to, which is fortunate at this point. The one time cost of the new system, while not having an immediate or even short term payback, was easier to bite than the ever-increasing monthy costs with the old, poorly maintained (by the previous owner) and improperly sized furnace. And we are much more comfortable now, too.

I absolutely agree about the "creative spin" on efficiency...today's sytems are considerably better than older units, but I don't think anything could be 99% efficient given current technology!

[Chad Pater]

Taking an example of a 25,000 BTU/HR heater someone recently asked about, it would take .25 of a therm using natural gas (about .22 per hour). Dividing the 25,000 BTU/HR by 3412 to get the equivalent KWH rating you would need in an electric heater, you come up with 7.32 KWH. At .08 per KWH, the electric heater would cost .58.

But wait, its a bit more complicated. The electric heater is 100% efficient ... all of the heat it produces is put into the room. If the gas appliance is a vented one, like the Hot Dawg heaters people use, then its really anywhere from 80% - 85% efficient. So to get that 25,000 BTU/HR in the shop, you need to burn more gas ... about 30,000 BTU/HR for a 85% efficient unit, because 15% of the heat is going out the vent. The math still works out ... 26 cents per hour versus .58.


I'm on what's called "dual fuel" in the house, and through that program I get reduced eletric rates on the heating KWH. Of course you need two meters and all the heat wired through the one meter but the house was set up this way when I bought it. My heating KWH rate is $0.0420. My heat bill was $70.22 last month. (granted it wasn't all the cold...for Minnesota but still).

[Mike Mortenson]

My natural gas provider actually told me the electric heat would be as cheap if not cheaper. In my shop there are other things to think about. Electric will be much safer and also less hassle. If you use gas you need a vented heater. The ventless heaters will put out too much moisture into the air and that will cause rust problems as well as sweating windows and mositure is not good for the wood.

[Mark Cothren]

BTW, Robert Tarr just told me that the local wood supplier is getting $250 a cord right now. Last year it was $175. Sheesh! 'Glad I added that insulation!

I can get it here in AR right now for $110 a cord - if you're buyin', that is. Not sure what it cost for me to cut a cord.

[Jim Becker]

I can get it here in AR right now for $110 a cord - if you're buyin', that is. Not sure what it cost for me to cut a cord.

I cut up a couple dead-falls for "immediate" stock and have about 3/4 of a cord "stashed" at Fred Voorhee's place. So, I'm thankful I don't need to pay for wood this year as I don't burn very much.

[Frank Hagan]

Frank, we have had a rebate available for years from PECO...I used it to reduce the cost of our new system by $400 back in 2003. We are using noticably less gas (based on consumption numbers) than we used to, which is fortunate at this point. The one time cost of the new system, while not having an immediate or even short term payback, was easier to bite than the ever-increasing monthy costs with the old, poorly maintained (by the previous owner) and improperly sized furnace. And we are much more comfortable now, too.

I absolutely agree about the "creative spin" on efficiency...today's sytems are considerably better than older units, but I don't think anything could be 99% efficient given current technology!

You will save some gas, because some of the older appliances actually started out at 78% efficient (pre-1978, I think) and could degrade over time. We have tested older appliances at 65% and lower. If you bought a new condensing appliance, and are also generating your domestic hot water with it, you will realize energy savings over that magic 85% rating when the unit is producing hot water. For this reason, some of the "instantaneous" type of condensing hot water heaters will save some money ... they are always condensing since the inlet water temp is under 100F. The combo heating and hot water units aren't quite as efficient because you heat the water indirectly, but you still do get some benefit whenever you see condensation coming out of the unit.

[Frank Hagan]

I'm on what's called "dual fuel" in the house, and through that program I get reduced eletric rates on the heating KWH. Of course you need two meters and all the heat wired through the one meter but the house was set up this way when I bought it. My heating KWH rate is $0.0420. My heat bill was $70.22 last month. (granted it wasn't all the cold...for Minnesota but still).

That's a pretty good rate! You saw my rate in California, in Hawai'i, the electric rate is .118 per KW, three times your rate. Of course, you don't need to heat the shop in Hawai'i ... so maybe that's the solution. We all move there!

I actually don't heat my shop, and two years ago, when my heater failed on Christmas Eve, I waited until February 12th to get a new one installed (all the quotes where high when it was cold!) I never understood how irritating that was to my friends back east until this year ... I'm in Jamestown NY at my daughter's house, and it is COLD.

[Tim Marks]

I am paying $.14 per kwH here in CT (8 cents for generation, 6 cents for distribution)

And to celebrate the new year, CNLP just anniounced a 22% rate hike due to "increased price of fossil fuels".

Of course, I live 15 miles away from the Millstone Nuclear power plant...

The cost to heat my house with electricity is almost double the cost to heat it with fuel oil (did I mention that fuel oil is almost double last winter's rates?)

[Dennis Peacock]

Natural Gas.....It's warmer, doesn't run as long for the same amount of heat, and to me...? It's a warmer heat. We've been all electric before. Never could stand that stupid heatpump. Always blowing cool air in the middle of winter. If we wanted it warm? We had to force the electric heatstrips on to have any warm air at all. So....when we moved to Arkansas? We made sure the house we were buying had gas heat. So does my shop!!!!!:D :D

Now, we heat the house with a woodstove and I heat the shop with NG Heat. Warm and toasty for both ventures.;)

[Bob Weisner]

Anyone have cheap electric from a municipal electric utility? I have seen them as low as 3.6 cents a kilowatt

[Steve Clardy]

I'm on a co-op [slight investment]
My rate book shows 30 KWH @ $8.07 Minimum monthly.

0.269 per K if I have it figured right.

Our rates haven't changed since 1998

[Tim Marks]

ouch, that is really expensive. And your rates have been that high since 1998? Somethings wrong there. What is your kWH usage each month?

[Steve Clardy]

ouch, that is really expensive. And your rates have been that high since 1998? Somethings wrong there. What is your kWH usage each month?


1500-2500 per month


Yes that seems high on the per hour
But my highest bill has been 180.00 or so

[Tim Marks]

ouch, and I thought my electric bills were expensive at $150-200 a month. Are you heating 100% with electricity? My fuel oil bill is running me about $250 a month right now.

[Steve Clardy]

No. Heat with wood. LP backup heat.

Thats my house and shop electric use. I'm full time in the shop.

[Jim Becker]

I just got our 14 Nov-20 Dec electric and gas bill. In it is a notice from the power/gas company that the natural gas rates increased 26% effective 1 December and are 43% higher than last year at the same time. While we used less electricity during this time period than last year (likely due to our 10 days in Russia and the computers, etc., all being turned off) our gas usage was up due to 8 degrees lower average temp. Total bill...$564.14 Last year same period... $419.46 ($366 vs $211 on the gas)

[Bob Weisner]

1500-2500 per month


Yes that seems high on the per hour
But my highest bill has been 180.00 or so



I may have figured it wrong, but I think the electric rate works out to something like 7 cents a kilowatt.

[Steve Clardy]

I may have figured it wrong, but I think the electric rate works out to something like 7 cents a kilowatt.

I was figuring mine with the minimum # of KWH I have to pay.
30 KWH costs me $8.07
I just divided that.
.26 doesn't sound right.

[Tim Marks]

many electric companies have a graduated scale; ie. the first 30 KWH costs more then the last 60 KWH.

[Tim Marks]

Thats my house and shop electric use. I'm full time in the shop.

with those rates, put a meter on your shop and make sure you claim the electrical costs as a business expense.

[Norman Hitt]

The Electric Co here in W. Tx posts the "Average Cost per KWH" on the bill each mo. My Bill for Dec was $477, (and there was not ANY shop time on it at all), but I can't figure why they showed my Avg Cost/KWH @ .1187, yet my 84 yr old MIL's bill (who lives only 4 blocks away), showed .1193/KWH. She lives by herself, keeps the house mostly dark, has no computer, etc, and has a fairly new "Efficient" model Electric central hvac, vs our 40 yr old Electric Central hvac, yet her her bill was still high @ $415. Something just doesn't add up, especially since her house is slightly smaller than ours, AND is better insulated as well. We've even had the Elec Co check the accuracy of her meter twice in the last two years, and they swear it's correct.:confused: :confused:

All my life I've had gas heat, cook stoves, water heaters, (and even some gas refridgerators early on), but this house is Total Electric. I do plan to switch to Gas for at least the Central heat and Cook top when we do have to replace them, which I wanted to do, (and should have) about 28 or so, yrs ago when we bought this place and I had to replace the cook top, BUT...... the LOML liked electric cooking (Which I HATE), so you know the "Rest of the Story".;)

[Eddie Watkins]

It is difficult to do cost comparisons without knowing the size of the house/shop. My house is around 3400 sf and shop is another 720 sf. I'm a little shocked by some of the costs. I agree with Dennis that I like gas heat better because it "feels" warmer and it does recover faster if you change your settings when your not at home. I installed programmable thermostats over the holidays and am waiting to see if they help much. I have two HVAC systems with gas furnaces and gas water heaters in my house and and a heater and a AC window unit in my shop. My December bill was $117 for gas and $60 or so for electricity but we are having a really warm winter not to mention dry. The biggest bills I have ever had was around $210 dollars on the gas last winter and around $280 for electric last summer but I can't really extrapolate that to this year since costs have gone up. I believe if I were building today I would go with gas for our area which is very close to Wolf's area. Having had a total electric house it sure seems cheaper to use gas but I don't have any emprical data to validate that.

[Norman Hitt]

A little MORE on TXU rates in W. TX. On the Dec bill they included the new prices that are going into effect, and to make it even more disconcerting, they included a flyer with an application form for you to pay them an additional $5.34/month to lock in these new rates for the rest of 2006, so it's a crapshoot as to whether the rates will go up or down during the year.:(

The new rates are;

1. Off Peak Season, (Nov - May)
First 600 kwh @ .14839/kwh
Remaining Kwh @ .12929/kwh
Plus Taxes

2. On Peak Season, (Jun - Oct)
First 1000 kwh @ .14839/kwh
ALL addt'l kwh @ .14839/kwh (note: same as first 1000 kwh price)
Plus Taxes

This has been a heck of a series of increases from the .091/kwh that we were paying early last summer.

I figured our Dec useage of 3968 kwh at the new off peak rates and it would increase from the billed amt (minus taxes) of $465.77 to $524.48, and when figured on the On Peak rate, it would increase to $588.81.:( I Sure hope we don't have a "Real Scorcher" Summer this year, or a lot of "Poor Folks" will probably die from the heat, because they can't Afford the Cooling. :(

I haven't yet been able to get a reliable price from anyone on the Gas Rates in this area yet, BUUUUUUUUT.....I'm SURE they are very high also, as they also come from TXU, and we also always pay more for it here (where we produce it) than most folks do after it has been piped 1500 miles away.:(

The Sad thing is that when our "Brilliant State Politicians" bragged about how Texans would be so much better off by "Deregulating" Utility pricing a few years back by opening Competition, I said then it was a bunch of malarky, and it appears that I was certainly correct. We didn't get much (if any) new Generation Companies to speak of, but mostly just a bunch of New "MIDDLEMEN type" Billing Companies that buy from the same Original Pwr Generating Co's, and Sell to the consumers, and the Pwr is still delivered over the same lines, by the same companies as it was before, and most of these New Marketing type Co's have a "Gimmick" of some type to gyp the public, as was mentioned by KC in his post. These Co's don't own any Generation Plants, Distribution lines or ANYTHING actually Productive, they just have some Offices and Computers for Billing, buying and selling, and Rates have Continually risen ever since they were allowed to compete with the original Generation/Distribution Co's.

Ok, this isn't really a rant, just a statement of facts, and I hope some of you good folks at least have a better Regulated System and price point than we do here.

[Robert Mickley]

This where it pays to be
A: a redneck
B: creative
C: fearless in the thought that you can build anything
D: stupidd enough to believe C

I live in the hardest thing in the world to heat, a house trailer. Now befor eyou go putting it down I have advantages. Being as its on wifes cousins farm I have access to equipment and tools I would not other wise be able to have. And the rents cheap. $250 a month.

Any way we spent around $1600 for propane last year used around 1000 gallons, at $2.65 a gallon that just wasn't an option this year. I built my own outside woodboiler. Total cost ended up around $1100. So far its been burning around 2/3 of a pick up load a week. ;) It just all depends on how cheap you are. On the plus side its a whole lot warmer in here than it ever was.

For your viewing pleasure

[Fred Voorhees]

BTW, Robert Tarr just told me that the local wood supplier is getting $250 a cord right now. Last year it was $175. Sheesh! 'Glad I added that insulation!
THAT's enough to get my butt back out there in the back forty and finish splitting up that pile of black locust!

[Steve Clardy]

with those rates, put a meter on your shop and make sure you claim the electrical costs as a business expense.


I deduct all my electric cost. I am self employed.:)

[Eddie Watkins]

Let me post a correction. I got my DECEMBER gas bill in the mail yesterday after I had posted my previous message. The Dec. bill was $389 which nearly doubled our previous high. They estimated last months bill so that cost includes some usage for November. With the new information I sure see why Wolf is considering electricity. A lot of our electricity uses coal in the generation plants. I have a ventless heater and have been considering upgrading to a vented gas heater. I sure may look into electric heaters as an option. It looks to me that there is more up side with electricity to develop cost saving technology than there is with gas. Just my opinion.