Dovetailing Journey

[Rob Luter]

Dovetails have always been my nemesis. They wind up clunky and unrefined. I know; practice, practice, practice.

So, I decided to practice. I cut a few 6" lengths of scrap pine, maple and whatever else I had laying around and started making dovetails. Funny how practice makes perfect. A couple of things really made a difference.

1) Make sure you have enough light. If you can't see it clearly, you can't cut it cleanly.

2) Slow down.

3) Chop the majority of your waste, then put a fresh edge on your chisel prior to the final trim to your knife line. This made a huge difference. I thought I was still sharp. I wasn't. It mattered.

A few dozen more test pieces and I should have this figured out.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hang in there Rob. It really is just a ton of practice.
I cant remember if I posted this for you before, but it's some notes I made that many others commented upon. Might give you more ideas. LINK (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?263892-Lessons-Learned-Hand-Cutting-Dovetails&highlight=Dovetails)

Good luck!
Fred

[ken hatch]

Dovetails have always been my nemesis. They wind up clunky and unrefined. I know; practice, practice, practice.

So, I decided to practice. I cut a few 6" lengths of scrap pine, maple and whatever else I had laying around and started making dovetails. Funny how practice makes perfect. A couple of things really made a difference.

1) Make sure you have enough light. If you can't see it clearly, you can't cut it cleanly.

2) Slow down.

3) Chop the majority of your waste, then put a fresh edge on your chisel prior to the final trim to your knife line. This made a huge difference. I thought I was still sharp. I wasn't. It mattered.

A few dozen more test pieces and I should have this figured out.

Rob,

Congrats, sharp and practice can make a big difference :)

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Rob, One of the things that helped me during cutting practice dovetails was to try cutting them different ways. My usual method is to cut tails first. Starting with pins first made me look at cutting dovetails from a new perspective.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Hang in there Rob. It really is just a ton of practice.
I cant remember if I posted this for you before, but it's some notes I made that many others commented upon. Might give you more ideas. LINK (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?263892-Lessons-Learned-Hand-Cutting-Dovetails&highlight=Dovetails)

Good luck!
Fred

Thanks Fred. Lots of good information there. Some of the most effective changes I've made have to do with alignment and marking.

I made an alignment Jig with fences typical of that shown here by David Barron:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I45mEWAJv4

Mine's not as fancy but it's easy to get everything lined up. I need to make a couple more.

[Mike Henderson]

It doesn't make a big difference but if you use a fret saw to remove most of the waste you won't have to resharpen when you trim back to the line. A person who is very good with dovetails might be able to work with you and give you some good pointers.

Mike

[Bill Carey]

It doesn't make a big difference but if you use a fret saw to remove most of the waste you won't have to resharpen when you trim back to the line. A person who is very good with dovetails might be able to work with you and give you some good pointers.

Mike


2nd on the fret saw. Makes waste removal much easier. And I've found the blue tape method really helps me SEE where and what I want to cut. Plus it's - for me - one of the most relaxing and zen like things I do in the shop. Not at all like work.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Mike, since I became aware of them a few weeks ago, I have kept your first two dovetail instructionals open as active tabs in my browser, and I refer to them liberally. As a public service to the community, I'll take the liberty of posting the links. I hope you don't mind; you posted them yourself recently.

http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm
http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm

Solid advice.

Now, about that fret saw: I picked up a LV German-made coping saw this year and fitted it with a Pégas skip-tooth blade. While there is some mild flex in the blade, the saw does cut near where I need it to cut. I dream about a fret saw based on the ad copy that it hardly flexes at all, but I'll think about that luxury down the road. Until then I won't know what I'm missing, I guess. I'll try to see if someone in my local woodworkers club has a Knew Concepts fret saw I can try, just in case I want to tantalize myself, but for now I'll use the coping saw. (I do wish there was a way to add a washer to one end to enable more tightening, but I don't see how on this saw, unless I try to remove the pin, but I'm loathe to do that.)

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/coping/32914-coping-saw-and-blade

I think your advice was to use a saw instead of chopping out the bulk waste, and to that I say, absolutely.

[Rob Luter]

I remove most of the waste with a coping saw now. I had a couple sweet German fret saws but the blades were too fragile for the oak I normally work with, so I sold them in the great tool purge of 2019. I’m tempted to spring for a Knew Concepts saw with a high tension blade.

[Frederick Skelly]

I’m tempted to spring for a Knew Concepts saw with a high tension blade.

Do it. You won't believe what a nice tool that is.

[Thomas Wilson]

I notice you used different woods for practice. That is also key. Pine and poplar can be/need to be much tighter fit than oak and maple.

I have a David Barron jig. I find it very helpful in starting the cut accurately. I need all the help I can get to start the kerf accurately.

TW

[Clifford McGuire]

Good advice.

Working from home, I would do the 'Dovetail a day' during my lunch break. Around day nine, I started seeing improvement. Around day 20 I started making boxes out of poplar. After a month, I was making boxes for family members out of hardwood.

I've saved the practice dovetails to see how far I've gone.

[Robert Engel]

You’re honing you’re skills, Rob.

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

[Derek Cohen]

A couple of points:

Removing the waste, with a coping or fretsaw, spares the chisel edges from significantly more work. You are like to do cleaner work because they stay sharper longer. I prefer a fretsaw as the blades are thinner with finer teeth, and you can saw closer to the baseline.

If you are snapping blades on a fretsaw, then you are using too much force. The Knew Concepts fretsaw is fantastic, but I can do very good work with a vintage jeweller’s saw with the appropriate technique. Here is a video I made ...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M6O4rY_0zQs

I am not interested in the David Barron alignment board. It is good for simple dovetails, such as boxes. However, once you no longer align sides, or ends, then there is a need for other methods. How do you use it for these dovetails? The back panel lies in the centre of the drawer sides.

https://i.postimg.cc/76KVHgkX/11a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/3rVgwCbb/4.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Anuj Prateek]

I was going to post the same tutorial (Mike's). They are greatly helping me in hand cutting dovetails.

Blue tape technique on Derek's website is other wonderful resource.

In case of a little longer boards using small miter clamps help a lot in alignment (don't know who posted but it's on SMC).

[Edwin Santos]

Thanks Fred. Lots of good information there. Some of the most effective changes I've made have to do with alignment and marking.

I made an alignment Jig with fences typical of that shown here by David Barron:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I45mEWAJv4

Mine's not as fancy but it's easy to get everything lined up. I need to make a couple more.

Hi, I have had good success with all of David Barron's demonstrated methods. The style and look of the dovetails he cuts is quite refined.

This said, he has some critics here, and it's for you to choose your preferred methods that get you the results you like. I haven't yet seen any finished dovetails where it was obvious to me what methods or subtle techniques the builder used in the process. The point being, once the project is done, the finished results stand on their own however you got there. There is a short book by an author named Ian Kirby which covers some good techniques also.
Edwin

[Rob Luter]

A couple of points:

Removing the waste, with a coping or fretsaw, spares the chisel edges from significantly more work. You are like to do cleaner work because they stay sharper longer. I prefer a fretsaw as the blades are thinner with finer teeth, and you can saw closer to the baseline.

If you are snapping blades on a fretsaw, then you are using too much force. The Knew Concepts fretsaw is fantastic, but I can do very good work with a vintage jeweller’s saw with the appropriate technique. Here is a video I made ...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M6O4rY_0zQs

I am not interested in the David Barron alignment board. It is good for simple dovetails, such as boxes. However, once you no longer align sides, or ends, then there is a need for other methods. How do you use it for these dovetails? The back panel lies in the centre of the drawer sides.

https://i.postimg.cc/76KVHgkX/11a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/3rVgwCbb/4.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

The edge on the left is common and can be aligned using the fence on the alignment board.

[Edwin Santos]

The edge on the left is common and can be aligned using the fence on the alignment board.

I think Derek's comment had more to do with the back even though the second photo is showing the front. But I think the answer is the same. I would use the alignment board with the piece over size and then cut/trim the component to final size. But again, this is not to say that Derek's method is not equally effective, as are other methods.
BTW, check your alignment board from time to time. I found some seasonal changes required mine to be tuned a bit.

[Jim Koepke]

I remove most of the waste with a coping saw now. I had a couple sweet German fret saws but the blades were too fragile for the oak I normally work with, so I sold them in the great tool purge of 2019. I’m tempted to spring for a Knew Concepts saw with a high tension blade.


Do it. You won't believe what a nice tool that is.

The Knew Concepts fret saw makes my German (and French or American fret saws) seem lame.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

The edge on the left is common and can be aligned using the fence on the alignment board.

No, you cannot.

The right side is the lower edge of the drawer front and drawer side. That is the important side to get square and aligned to ensure all sits square and coplanar.

https://i.postimg.cc/bNtj2xRF/7drawer.jpg

The drawer back on this drawer sits in the centre of the drawer sides; there is space below for the drawer bottom and space above for a chamfer. How do you align this when marking out?

I use this wooden square to align the parts ...

https://i.postimg.cc/44t2kX1q/9a.jpg

This is especially useful when the mating boards are not square but angled (try and fit that on a Barron jig :) )

https://i.postimg.cc/tCjS98ST/10a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Luter]

No, you cannot.

The right side is the lower edge of the drawer front and drawer side. That is the important side to get square and aligned to ensure all sits square and coplanar.

https://i.postimg.cc/bNtj2xRF/7drawer.jpg

The drawer back on this drawer sits in the centre of the drawer sides; there is space below for the drawer bottom and space above for a chamfer. How do you align this when marking out?

I use this wooden square to align the parts ...

https://i.postimg.cc/44t2kX1q/9a.jpg

This is especially useful when the mating boards are not square but angled (try and fit that on a Barron jig :) )

https://i.postimg.cc/tCjS98ST/10a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

OK. The alignment board is reversible. The shot below shows both edges parallel and coplanar.


436068

When I have two edges that need to be parallel but not coplanar. I add a spacer as is shown below.

436069

Perhaps not as elegant as your square, and ineffective if the boards are angled, but that calls for a different method anyway. Remember, I'm at the beginning of my dovetail journey. I'm not about to shun simple methods that deliver results for simple jobs.

Hoping I can figure out why these photos always come in at 90* to how I want them

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I remove most of the waste with a coping saw now. I had a couple sweet German fret saws but the blades were too fragile for the oak I normally work with, so I sold them in the great tool purge of 2019. I’m tempted to spring for a Knew Concepts saw with a high tension blade.

Makes a huge difference. If mine broke, I would order a new one the same day; not very likely to break, however.... especially since mine is made of titanium if I remember correctly. Over-kill I think, the Aluminum would have sufficed. Don't think that you can get the Titanium anymore, I think it was a one time thing.

Curious where you live in Michigan (roughly). I have relatives in the Milford / Howell area and I grew up between Rochester and Lake Orion.

[Rob Luter]

Curious where you live in Michigan (roughly). I have relatives in the Milford / Howell area and I grew up between Rochester and Lake Orion.

I live in Northwest Indiana in a region they call Michiana. I’m right on the Michigan border near South Bend. Small world. I grew up in Clarkston, had friends in Lake Orion, and started college at OCC in Auburn Hills.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I live in Northwest Indiana in a region they call Michiana. I’m right on the Michigan border near South Bend. Small world. I grew up in Clarkston, had friends in Lake Orion, and started college at OCC in Auburn Hills.

So it really is "Michiana", :-)

I worked at OCC for a bit; in the admissions department. I am a fan of OCC, I think they do a great job.

I did tutoring in Clarkston and had friends who lived there.

If you ever make it to Columbus, Ohio, give me a shout!

[Bob Jones 5443]

Rob, a few weeks ago I posted a step-by-step method to keep photos upright. I’m outside on my phone right now and can’t look it up, and after a venti summer libation I’m too relaxed to tap it out again right now. I don’t know if I’m qualified to post a sticky (probably not), but it would be nice if a moderator would do that for the community.

[Rob Luter]

OK. The alignment board is reversible. The shot below shows both edges parallel and coplanar.


436068

When I have two edges that need to be parallel but not coplanar. I add a spacer as is shown below.

436069

Perhaps not as elegant as your square, and ineffective if the boards are angled, but that calls for a different method anyway. Remember, I'm at the beginning of my dovetail journey. I'm not about to shun simple methods that deliver results for simple jobs.

Hoping I can figure out why these photos always come in at 90* to how I want them

Thanks Bob. I found your post and the method seemed to work OK.

436160 436161

[Rob Luter]

Hard work seems to be paying off. I think.

I made one of these this morning and tried using blue tape on the end of the pin board. Epic fail. For whatever reason the tail sockets were oversize. I could assemble right off the saw but there were huge gaps everywhere. I decided a break was in order so I took my bride to lunch.

When I got back I sawed the pins and tails off my test boards and gave it another go. I paid special attention to getting the pins marked cleanly. Some focused task lighting helped quite a bit. They didn't fit together right off the saw, but nearly so. Just a minimum of trimming and minimal gaps Now if I could just keep from sawing past my baseline.....

436181 436182 436183

[Bob Jones 5443]

Rob, I’m celebrating with you. Nice work. Write the date on the inside of that one.

[Jim Koepke]

Looking better than many of my dovetails.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Looking better than many of my dovetails.

jtk

Even a blind pig finds an acorn occasionally. Hoping with practice I can maintain this standard.

[Bill Carey]

Rob, I’m celebrating with you. Nice work. Write the date on the inside of that one.


2nd that! And keep it on a shelf in your shop. Well done!

[Erich Weidner]

Hoping I can figure out why these photos always come in at 90* to how I want them

It is a defect in the forum software (well... rather it is the software developer taking a ridiculous position as to if images should be auto rotated).

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?258495-Why-your-photos-show-up-sideways-on-SMC

[Clifford McGuire]

I made one of these this morning and tried using blue tape on the end of the pin board. Epic fail. For whatever reason the tail sockets were oversize. I could assemble right off the saw but there were huge gaps everywhere. I decided a break was in order so I took my bride to lunch.


Looking good!

I have the opposite problem. Using blue tape gives me overly tight pins. I think I'm careful with the marking knife. And I place the saw such that I'm just leaving the tape. The pins turn out too tight and I end up paring a bit off of them.