Entry Level Sliding Table Saw....HELP?

[Jon Steffen]

The Background:

Longtime lurker, first post.

I'm a DIY'er and am starting to enjoy wood working more and more. A friend of mine taught me a concept of instead of paying somebody to do work on your house/car buy the tools
needed and do it yourself. Often you'll spend less, learn somthing and then have the tools for the next project.

I'm having a 14'x52' 3rd stall added to my garage. Much of this will be a wood shop, maybe a car hoist in the future and parking my vehicle

I own a Dewalt compound miter saw, drill press, dewalt planer, Festool tracksaw and festool cross cut table. Tons of hand tools and Milwaukee m18 stuff. 4 years ago i had to
sell my Powermatic 66 when we moved (not enough space). I still have a ryobi POS $90 table saw.

I see a jointer, drum sander, bandsaw, router table, table saw in my future. Oh and i'm buying an Oneida V3000 for new dust control.

Safety thoughts:

I've never been a huge fan of getting my fingers close to blades (DUH).

When I had my Powermatic 66 I loved how powerful/smooth it was. I know there are nicer/safer pushblocks like the Gripper to get
your fingers away from the blade but there are always limitations. Something has to be better/safer.

I've always felt awkward and not in control cutting a sheet of plywood in my Powermatic. This is why I got a tracksaw when i had to sell the Powermatic. The tracksaw is awesome,
but its slower and not acurrate for repeatable cuts unless i use some kind of parallel guide thing, but even that isn’t super accurate.

Table Saw thoughts:
I've been mesmerized by the Sawstop since I first saw the hotdog thing a long time ago. I've been thinking of getting a sawstop with the sliding table large or small.
But damn, its $5,000 when i add it all up. Its still a western cabinet saw with slider attached. I've read many threads on here dating back to 2007 and it seems like anybody that gets a sliding saw, says its awesome. A few guys still have a normal cabinet saw as well, but if only 1 can be owned, it sounds like the slider wins.

The Sawstop large sliding table needs feet so its not mobile at all compared to a Euro saw with that
cantilevered arm that the Grizly and Minimax ones use.

I was reading a few posts by Jim Becker (and others) about how they like Minimax sliders. Then i discovered the world of euro style sliding table saws.
While they don't have the safety feature of Sawstop, I think their design is ultimately safer. Less reaching accross the table (i'm only 5'7"), stand next to blade, ect.

I agree with the "Cry Once" mentality on spending. Am i a cabinet shop? NO! Will I ever use these saws to their full capability.....maybe. I need to build a ton of cabinets for
my shop, for an upcoming basement remodel, perhaps redoing our kitchen cabinets, or at least face frames and new raised panels.

My purchase can only use single phase 220v.

Some euro saws can’t use dado stack. The grizzly GO623x can. I know dados can be done on a router table or router jig too.

$$$:
If I didn’t build the cabinets myself, I could spend thousands to have these cabinets made, or even buy crappy ones from a big box store and spend thousands. So i'm thinking somewhere between $3500-$6,000 is my budget on a saw, but if I stay around $3500, then I could spend $1500-$2000 on some of the other tools I mentioned above.

I was thinking of a Grizzly GO623x for $3500 initially and if in a few years I think I want more saw, sell it and then get a Minimax SC3 or the 4e, but for the $1500 more now, is a Minimax SC2C a lot nicer than a GO623x?. Or do I just go to something with a 8' sled/wagon right out of the gate? That will be a ton of real estate, maybe I'll discover I don't actually rip anything 8' long.

Another concern is Factory support after the purchase. Grizzly has more presence in the USA, am I going to get the support if I have an issue with a Minimax?

Its a bit of a pain to compare all the minimax saws, not a ton of youtube videos in english. Grizzly i'm assuming isn't as good quality of machine vs an Italian saw, but is it even close to the entry Minimax in quality?

Anyways, I welcome all help, but please don't try to convince me to buy a traditional western cabinet saw, i want some form of euro style slider. After gathering intel here, I'm hoping to see a few of the front-runners in action before I make my decision. The 3rd stall is being built next spring, so i've got time, BUT, if I know what I want, and a sale comes, i'll pull the trigger now and squeeze it into the 2 car garage.

Thanks!

[Mike Kees]

I used to own a Minimax Sc2. mine was an older one,like 1980's vintage. It was an excellent saw and I still miss it. (replaced with a bigger slider). The Italians build great machines that are basic designs built robustly and adjustable. My Minimax was no different,once adjusted it held adjustments. The short stroke sliders are great for solid stock work and mine had a 50'' stroke so you could crosscut a full sheet of plywood. The new version of the Sc2 is improved in a couple ways,the one thing I noticed the most is hand wheels for raising and tilting the blade. My machine used a lever to raise the blade and you loosened a lever and tilted manually. It also used 10'' blades with a 5/8'' arbor.

[Gary Markham]

I have a hammer k3 winner 48x79 slider. My son has the griz 0623 so I have used both. I bought mine first and it was a hard decision to make. I also considered the sc2. I don’t think it will take a dado and i don’t think it’s as robust as the hammer so I crossed it off first. Then it’s griz which is a great saw but needs the leg to help stabilize it because of the smaller base, the fence is lighter but it’s a great value. Or the hammer with the longer stroke generally better made But a lot more. With a track saw the stroke may not be as critical. The griz is a great saw at a great value especially if you brake sheet material down first with a track saw. If you want a premium saw look at the k3 winner or sc3 With the longer stroke. I couldn’t fit it and the hammer was priced better at the time
good luck
gary

[Mike Kreinhop]

When I built my workshop, the decision process for a saw narrowed the field down to the Hammer K3 Winner or the Minimax SC2 Classic. Other makes, such as SawsStop or Grizzly were eliminated immediately because they are not available where I live. I would have been happy with either the K3W or the SC2C, but the decision came down to availability, delivery, and commissioning.

The lead time on the K3W was 90-120 days and I had to arrange for my own transportation from the factory, as well as commissioning. The SC2C was available immediately and the price included the scoring blade option, delivery, and commissioning. Another benefit was the SCM technician lived nearby, but the nearest Hammer/Felder technician was hours away.

The features of the K3W that I miss on the SC2C are the mobility kit and the ability to use a dado stack. I've accepted that the SC2C cannot be moved in my shop and I think I can meet any dado requirements with my router table or Festool system. If you have the time to wait and plan, I would buy the K3 Winner.

[Patrick Walsh]

Honestly with that space and the premise of not needing the absolute best and a bit of cry once for a hobbyist I’d just buy the saw in the link below.

Compared to a higher end saw it leaves much to be desired. But by comparison to other entry level machines be they Hammer, Grizzly, Laguna it’s actually pretty darn nice. It’s like $11k new and I know maybe twice that of a short stroke slider but it’s also not short stroke and imop it’s the entry point and the lowest level I’d ever feel good about entering into the slider market.

I have know a couple people who purchased the saw new and compared to a Martin or higher end Scm it’s a toy. By next to a hammer or griz it seems like a pro level machine. So I’d say it’s right in the middle being neither industrial or hobby.

And nothing Electronic really to fail on you and make it a lead weight later in life..

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/nova-si-400.586

[Brian W Evans]

I have a Minimax (SCM) SC4 Elite. I chose this saw because of the 8.5 stroke, which I use for straight-lining lumber and for working with sheet goods (although I often use a track saw to make sheets easier to handle before making cuts on the slider). I looked at Felder as well but for the price I felt like the SCM was the better bargain at the time. The SC4E has a 5/8" arbor and can handle a dado stack. It can use 12" blades. It comes standard with the scoring blade, which is fantastic for working with sheet goods.

As I'm sure you know, space is a major consideration with a slider. The SC4E needs 20' front to back and close to that side to side if you want full cutting capacity to the right of the blade. Lots of slider owners, myself included, don't feel they need this since most work is done to the left of the blade.

Like you, safety was a major consideration in my decision to purchase a slider. I had considered a SawStop, but triggering a safety feature is not as good as just never having a reason to put your hand near the blade in the first place, IMO. With the slider, I know that if my hand is over the sliding table, it cannot come into contact with the blade. I also never stand behind the blade when ripping, so kickback is not a danger to my body. The various jigs and supports that attach to the sliding table all serve to move your hands farther from the blade, not closer as is the case with the Grr-ripper (which I used to own, and liked).

The SC4E is a basic machine - no frills but very robustly built. It's just a lot of steel, iron, thick aluminum extrusions, and concrete (for vibration dampening). The adjustments are obvious and work very well and hold their settings. I believe the overall machine weighs about 1,500 lbs.

There is a mobility kit available for the SC4E. I believe it involves a couple of wheels attached to the saw and a lever with wheels attached - it's not a mobile base.

I often see used sliding saws available within 100 miles of me on Craigslist or WoodWeb. They tend to be older, but sometimes newer models come up. Since you have time maybe you should just keep an eye out for a while.

Good luck with your decision.

[Jim Becker]

I currently have and SCM/Minimax slider and if I need something smaller when/if we downsize, it will be another SCM/Minimax slider with a shorter stroke to fit in a smaller space.

[Patrick Kane]

If you can only have one saw, i would strongly encourage 8-9' if you can fit it. Especially if you are doing two kitchens worth of cabinets. The cost of the longer stroke would almost be worth it for just those two jobs. I have an older Felder 700, and I would probably go that direction if given the choice all over again. Id rather have a 15 year old Felder than a new Grizzly. Id be amiss if i recommended blowing your entire budget on a slider though. If you plan on doing the cabinet jobs first for the next year before doing any furniture work, then you can get away without having a jointer, but that is an awfully critical component, in my opinion. Sure, you can edge joint on your 8' slider, but that doesnt do squat for truing boards.

Where are you located?

[Dan Chouinard]

I am also in the market for a slider and Patrick makes a compelling point towards SCM. Thanks also to Brian and Jim for their input. I just reached out to SCM.

[Jon Steffen]

Honestly with that space and the premise of not needing the absolute best and a bit of cry once for a hobbyist I’d just buy the saw in the link below.

Compared to a higher end saw it leaves much to be desired. But by comparison to other entry level machines be they Hammer, Grizzly, Laguna it’s actually pretty darn nice. It’s like $11k new and I know maybe twice that of a short stroke slider but it’s also not short stroke and imop it’s the entry point and the lowest level I’d ever feel good about entering into the slider market.

I have know a couple people who purchased the saw new and compared to a Martin or higher end Scm it’s a toy. By next to a hammer or griz it seems like a pro level machine. So I’d say it’s right in the middle being neither industrial or hobby.

And nothing Electronic really to fail on you and make it a lead weight later in life..

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/nova-si-400.586
Oh man, but now you're talking about going from a $3500 machine to a $11,000 machine. Also I see that machine is 3phase, I think that's a deal breaker.

I think the SCM SC4 Elite would be closest to the one you're suggesting and $2,000 less. But even that, we're going from $3500 to $9,000.

maybe Brian Evans and Jim Becker could tell me about why the SC4 Elite is $4,000 better than the SC2C, other than the 8.5' sled, vs 5.5'.

[glenn bradley]

Oh man, but now you're talking about going from a $3500 machine to a $11,000 machine.

Too true. You are stepping up to another tier of machines and need to adjust your price range accordingly. Where really nice cabinet saws may top out around $5k, this is more of an entry point for quality sliders / combo machines. You don't need to go crazy but, you do need to re-center your cost expectations or everything is going to seem really "expensive".

[Brian W Evans]

maybe Brian Evans and Jim Becker could tell me about why the SC4 Elite is $4,000 better than the SC2C, other than the 8.5' sled, vs 5.5'.

This is outside my area of expertise. The only slider I've ever used is my own, so I have nothing to compare it to. I would contact Sam Blasco with this question. He is an SCM rep in Texas and was helpful to me when making my decision. You can see him on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClnXdL8DGhsXQsV3_QnboGQ/featured) and PM me for his email if you're interested.

[Jim Becker]

The Nova line is certainly nice, but I also agree that the SC-machines are very suitable for the hobbyist or one-man shop, especially when space is constrained.

The SC4 Elite is a heavier machine all around than the SC2C, has an available separate scoring motor if scoring is desired, etc. The SC3 sits between them. They are certainly siblings for sure. Weight, capacity, features.

SCM/Minimax, like almost all tool manufacturers has technical support and parts availability. And like all the others, the owner is who provides the labor if something needs to be replaced or adjusted. There are some exceptions, but on-site technicians are generally an uber-expensive thing as they are a special service. I've had no issue doing anything required on my own machines over the years.

[Bill Dufour]

Location will determine what is reasonable priced on the used market. A poster in Germany has already replied. Carefully read his post since I think he is local to you.
Bill D

[Alex Zeller]

If you ask a bunch of car guys for advice on buying a new car they are going to quickly say you need a Ferrari. The fact is that $11k for a machine for a hobbyist is most likely overkill. Sure it'll be a real nice saw but a saw like that belongs in a shop making the owner money. You said the key words "3 phase". 3hp 3 phase piece of equipment isn't going to be too expensive to make run on your single phase power but once you start getting into these 7 1/2hp saws you are getting into the thousand dollar range for a rotary phase converter. So stick with your budget (chances are you will still go over it). Another option might be a panel saw and a cabinet saw.

[Jim Becker]

Location will determine what is reasonable priced on the used market. A poster in Germany has already replied. Carefully read his post since I think he is local to you.
Bill D
OP appears to be in the US based on his first post and concerns with support.

[Erik Loza]

Jon, I'm going to avoid a "Tell me what to buy"-type reply but to answer your questions about why one level of slider cost more than another, here is what you need to know about European manufacturers (regardless of brand). Sliders generally fall into two categories: For the hobby or for the industry. That is the price difference you are seeing. Machines for the hobby generally have a chassis more like a traditional American cabinet saw, square and boxy. Sliding table lengths are generally shorter (limited by chassis design/size) and the saw unit that houses the main and scoring blades is typically of the pillow block-type, where the cut dimension between the sawblade and rip fence (or crosscut fence) changes as you tilt the sawblade. Machines at this level, if they have scoring, will ordinarily have what is called a "slaved" scoring unit, where the scoring blade is driven by a secondary belt off the main saw arbor. These are all features designed to make the machine as economical as possible.

Machines for the industry ordinarily have a chassis designed like a "T", with the top of the T supporting most or all the length of the sliding table. This is for strength and stability. Machines at this level almost always have what is called a double-hung saw unit, where the iron casting that houses the main and scoring units hangs from twin trunions that bolt to the underside of the cast iron table. Again, for maximum strength and accuracy. Scoring is almost always driven by a dedicated motor on machines at this level. These are all design features that put long-term accuracy and reliability ahead of cost.

These are just the basics. Obviously each manufacturer will have their own unique bells and whistles. You can get great machines at both levels. Just depends on what your budget is and where you want to put that money. Hope this helps,

Erik

[Kevin Jenness]

If you have room, get a minimum 8.5" stroke saw. It will allow working with full size panels for cabinetmaking and ripping up to 8' without removing the crosscut fence.

Consider a used industrial level saw with a phase converter. There are plenty of affordable older SCMI, Altendorf, even Martin in usable shape.

[Dave Cav]

Last year I bit the bullet, rearranged my shop and bought an SC4E. I sold my 12/14 Delta cabinet saw, 12" Rockwell RAS and one of my Delta shapers to make room for it, and I haven't regretted the purchase for a second. If you can manage it I'd strongly recommend going to the IWFA show in Atlanta this summer or AWFS in Vegas next summer. You can usually get a pretty good deal at one of the national shows. I bought my slider from Sam Blasco last year and everything worked out great, and I also had a chance to meet Eric and look at his saws.

[Brian W Evans]

Last year I bit the bullet, rearranged my shop and bought an SC4E. I sold my 12/14 Delta cabinet saw, 12" Rockwell RAS and one of my Delta shapers to make room for it, and I haven't regretted the purchase for a second. If you can manage it I'd strongly recommend going to the IWFA show in Atlanta this summer or AWFS in Vegas next summer. You can usually get a pretty good deal at one of the national shows. I bought my slider from Sam Blasco last year and everything worked out great, and I also had a chance to meet Eric and look at his saws.

FYI - the IWFA is cancelled this year.

[Patrick Walsh]

I say get in where you fit in and figure out on your own where that is.

I know I was dissuaded whenever I started building my shop by the difference of 5-11k.

Or 3 phase vrs single.

The fact is after massive disappointment in entry level felder not hammer machines I have now sold and re purchased every machine. Well I’m almost there. I can’t say I’m felder free just yet.

Electrical and all. I knew in my gut early on about the initial cost of a phase converter and ignored it. You know how ignoring our guy goes right.. Fact is I had to ignore it as my first two purchasers “felder” cost me $21k and I didn’t have the money in the budget for the phase converter or electrician as a guy making $35hr

The facts are two fold. You gotta figure out your expectations. If your at all picky and or know the difference between “nice and NICE” well then even that $11k scm ain’t very nice.

I’ll use it as it relates to home renovations. Some people, clients family members friends are delighted by work and materials that make my insides hurt to think someone spent their hard earned money on. While others like me have a hard time outfitting a custom entry door in anything less than $4-6k in hardware and that’s just nuts!

Sadly I had the misfortune early on in my career of being exposed to the Uber high end of customs home building. I know of brands manufactures and practices that most would never even know just walking into a home it shop. Someone said once you use good you can’t ever go back and if you have never used the higher end stuff you just can’t understand why or how it matters. Some guy will always say I know craftsman that can make circles around you with Home Depot tools and your fancy shop. I doubt it as I’m a pretty good maker of stuff but I bet he can make just as good. The question is do you want to. I don’t....

Point I’m trying to make is some people are happy with grizzly and others like me will use the machine for a week before dragging it out the shop or throwing it through the dam window orbb b like old shop mate if mine beating the thing to death with a stick daily out of frustration.

But that’s me and I have probably stupid high expectations of everything including myself.

All manufactures can have issues And at the end of the day if you want your machines tip top you gotta learn how to calibrate and maintain them.

My experience has been more expensive machines hold calibrations without having to constantly redo them.

My other experiences working with other makers is they just don’t hold or can’t take them. That’s all my felder gear.

Some are ok with wee snipe “just cut it out” or blade not perfectly aligned to a T slot or or or if that you spend less. If not buckle up buttercup as Mark H around here would say.

Best be wealthy or get a second job..

[Jon Steffen]

First off, i'd like to say THANK YOU, to all of you. I've been on lumberjocks and other car forums for years and people don't seem to be nice there. I almost didn't even post my question. None of you told me i'm a noob, dumb, out of my league, ect. ect. You people rock!


Too true. You are stepping up to another tier of machines and need to adjust your price range accordingly.

Gotta pay to play i guess.



Location will determine what is reasonable priced on the used market. A poster in Germany has already replied. Carefully read his post since I think he is local to you.
Bill D


I'm in Wisconsin USA.



If you have room, get a minimum 8.5" stroke saw. It will allow working with full size panels for cabinetmaking and ripping up to 8' without removing the crosscut fence.


I was just bitching about having to rip a full 4x8 sheet for a tray i was building for my Jeep Gladiator roof rack. Partially setting up the saw horses, moving the track, getting the saw out, moving kids toys, ect......Can't wait for my new shop, and i'm inching closer and closer to just getting a 8.5' sliding table saw and being set for ......a long time.


rotary phase converter. So stick with your budget (chances are you will still go over it). Another option might be a panel saw and a cabinet saw.


I forgot about those rotary phase converters. I was thinking 3phase was out because i'd have to run a 3rd leg from the power company. I remember an industrial mechanic friend telling me about rotary phase converters before, so I guess 3phase is still an option.


I have a Minimax (SCM) SC4 Elite. ......It comes standard with the scoring blade, which is fantastic for working with sheet goods.
The SC4E needs 20' front to back and close to that side to side if you want full cutting capacity to the right of the blade. .

There is a mobility kit available for the SC4E. I believe it involves a couple of wheels attached to the saw and a lever with wheels attached - it's not a mobile base.

Does it come standard with a scoring blade that runs off the primary motor, or come standard with its own motor?
The space needed is something I had a question about. If the table is only 8.5’ long, Why would it need 20’ front to back? Is it just so that you can actually walk in front of or behind it?
Also if it has a 50” rip capacity to the right of blade, and you put say an 8’ sheet of plywood on the sliding table to the left of blade, wouldn’t this only be 12 ish feet of space from left to right?

I’ll look into the mobility kit, but at 1500 lbs and its size; hopefully I can just set it and leave it.



If you can only have one saw, i would strongly encourage 8-9' if you can fit it. Especially if you are doing two kitchens worth of cabinets. The cost of the longer stroke would almost be worth it for just those two jobs. I have an older Felder 700, and I would probably go that direction if given the choice all over again. Id rather have a 15 year old Felder than a new Grizzly. Id be amiss if i recommended blowing your entire budget on a slider though. If you plan on doing the cabinet jobs first for the next year before doing any furniture work, then you can get away without having a jointer, but that is an awfully critical component, in my opinion. Sure, you can edge joint on your 8' slider, but that doesnt do squat for truing boards.

Where are you located?
Central Wisconsin, good points about the jointer.


I say get in where you fit in and figure out on your own where that is.

I know I was dissuaded whenever I started building my shop by the difference of 5-11k.

Or 3 phase vrs single.

The fact is after massive disappointment in entry level felder not hammer machines I have now sold and re purchased every machine. Well I’m almost there. I can’t say I’m felder free just yet.

Electrical and all. I knew in my gut early on about the initial cost of a phase converter and ignored it. You know how ignoring our guy goes right.. Fact is I had to ignore it as my first two purchasers “felder” cost me $21k and I didn’t have the money in the budget for the phase converter or electrician as a guy making $35hr

The facts are two fold. You gotta figure out your expectations. If your at all picky and or know the difference between “nice and NICE” well then even that $11k scm ain’t very nice.

I’ll use it as it relates to home renovations. Some people, clients family members friends are delighted by work and materials that make my insides hurt to think someone spent their hard earned money on. While others like me have a hard time outfitting a custom entry door in anything less than $4-6k in hardware and that’s just nuts!

Sadly I had the misfortune early on in my career of being exposed to the Uber high end of customs home building. I know of brands manufactures and practices that most would never even know just walking into a home it shop. Someone said once you use good you can’t ever go back and if you have never used the higher end stuff you just can’t understand why or how it matters. Some guy will always say I know craftsman that can make circles around you with Home Depot tools and your fancy shop. I doubt it as I’m a pretty good maker of stuff but I bet he can make just as good. The question is do you want to. I don’t....

Point I’m trying to make is some people are happy with grizzly and others like me will use the machine for a week before dragging it out the shop or throwing it through the dam window orbb b like old shop mate if mine beating the thing to death with a stick daily out of frustration.

But that’s me and I have probably stupid high expectations of everything including myself.

All manufactures can have issues And at the end of the day if you want your machines tip top you gotta learn how to calibrate and maintain them.

My experience has been more expensive machines hold calibrations without having to constantly redo them.

My other experiences working with other makers is they just don’t hold or can’t take them. That’s all my felder gear.

Some are ok with wee snipe “just cut it out” or blade not perfectly aligned to a T slot or or or if that you spend less. If not buckle up buttercup as Mark H around here would say.

Best be wealthy or get a second job..
Thanks Patrick, lots of good advice here. Hopefully I can just make a few thousand more between now and pulling the trigger and get the nicer 9-11k saw.

[Terry Therneau]

I am a fan of used, mostly because you can get more machine. 3 weeks ago I purchased a Felder 700 S pro saw/shaper (from north of Green Bay) for 7K, about 1/2 of the price of new, still the most I've ever spent on a machine. (The $ for shaper tooling --wow!) My 6" Yates jointer, which purrs like a kitten, is from the 1920s, and at the time I got it $150 was what I could afford. Since your garage isn't up yet, take some time to look around. You might find something, you might not.
Terry T.

[Jon Steffen]

where do you look to find used equipment like this?

[Scott Buehler]

I bought the shop fox slider, which is the same as the grizzly, and it's been a great machine. My previous machine was a10' SCM slider, but it was also over 15k. For 3500.00 I am very happy with the shop fox/grizzly, and would definitely recommend it. I have a small shop so a larger unit was not going to work. It is very accurate and unless you are cutting 8' lengths all day, it will work great for you.

[Jon Steffen]

how do i send you a pm on this forum? maybe i don't have enough regular posts to get pm capability? i clicked on your name, no conversation, dm, pm thingy is there........

[Mike Kreinhop]

where do you look to find used equipment like this?

Wait outside Patrick's window for the next saw to come flying through. :D

If you were in Germany, I could take you to at least five shops within a 50km radius that specialize in buying, refurbishing, and restoring high end production equipment. The shop where I bought my SC2 Classic is also a Martin retailer, but has several used Martin and Altendorf saws ready for a new home. One of the Martin saws is larger than my shop. They work with production shops that upgrade equipment regularly and replace existing equipment while it still serviceable for the secondary market.

I suspect there are many similar used equipment shops in the States.

[Kevin Jenness]

For used machines Craigslist (widen your search area as needed), Woodweb, Sawmill Creek classifieds, MachineKing, Ex-Factory, machinery dealers that take old ones in trade. I like dealing directly with the seller but you have to be able to assess the machine's condition.

Phase converters can come cheap. I put one together from a used 10 hp motor, a control panel and a used subpanel for distribution for about $500.

The actual table stroke is typically longer than the table so the workpiece can clear the scoring and main saws on in and outfeed, that's why an 8.5' saw needs about 20' clear.

Width-wise you need the rip capacity plus the width of the fence casting to the right of the saw. On mine that is about 55" total. At least 8' to the left for sheet goods plus maneuvering room, the more the better.

[Scott Bernstein]

I'll through my $0.02 in.... I have my shop in our 1.5 car garage, during the week there is a car parked in there. I started woodworking with a benchtop tablesaw, which I quickly outgrew and then started looking to upgrade to a better saw. Budget was a consideration, as always, but not the top one. I wanted to find a top-quality saw that would last and most importantly, fit into my available space. I came across the Felder equipment, specifically the "hobby" line Hammer, and seriously considered a short stroke Hammer slider. I also looked at the sawstop, for the quality as well as the extra safety feature. My space available for the saw while "parked" was wide but not very deep. Whichever saw would fit where I needed, and could easily be moved into the working position when the car is out of the garage on the weekends, was going to fit the bill. At the time, it seemed to me that the hobby-level sliders I was looking at really needed just a bit more space than what I had available. So I went with the SawStop PCS and their industrial mobile base. I have no doubt I would have been happy with a Hammer slider, but the SawStop is a wonderful machine and has been dead-accurate; a pleasure to use. If I need to rip long, wide pieces I have a Festool tracksaw - works great. I think for a hobby woodworker this setup is more than adequate. If I ever move to a new house with more shop space, I might eventually get a slider. I did finally get my hammer...in the form of an a3-41 16" jointer-planer combo machine.

[Patrick Walsh]

If you are in a position to just save “ a few thousand more I suggest that” some people just are not of that mindset though and see a few thousand more as well a few thousand more. In light of a machine that cost $5k vrs $10 I see it as small jump being you will hopefully have it forever. But honestly other than a group online of other woodworking professionals and non most ever woodworker I know does not feel that way as they like there money in the bank or spent set the golf course or on a boat or or or.

My work is my fun, if hit the lottery tomorrow I’d still spend 8 hrs a day in my shop just building what I want. So for me my tools are like a nice car, a boat, fancy lawn mower, a vacation with the family some kind of upgrade to the inside or outside of my house.

Where I do draw the line is when machine start approaching $50K plus. I just can’t see her to there. When such nice used machines can be had. On th flip side I can’t see spending $40k on used machine you may or may not have problems with. Sadly on the flip side of that is regardless of warranty once the machine is in your possession it’s gonna be your problem for the most part regardless of manufacture. Point is lots of merit to buying a higher end used machine. On the flip side it will be fully on you to get it up and running, calibrated and working to your satisfaction. Depending that could be a royal pain the ass or a great learning experience.

I guess I’m trying to say is I can’t afford a brand new saw that meets my expectations so A high end used has to be answer. And I’ve learnt my lessons with lower end equipment like ten times over now. At this point that’s just banging my head off the wall to keep buying low end machines. But again it seems many are happy with them so there is always that, maybe you would be one of those dare I say people lol..

[Jim Becker]

If the table is only 8.5’ long, Why would it need 20’ front to back?

My 8'6" slider wagon on the S315WS requires 19' end to end for the wagon to have complete travel from pulled all the way back to pushed all the way forward. That's why I mentioned that if I had to downsize in the future, I'd sacrifice wagon length but not give up the crosscut precision of a slider by going with something like an SC2 or SC3 sized machine. I have a Festool tracksaw if I really need to rip full sheets in that scenario anyway.

----
Let's please remember the OP asked about "entry level". That certainly means different things to different people, but probably more of them think about the smaller SCM/Minimax and Hammer machines in that context rather than big, old iron, especially when space constraints come into play.

[Brian W Evans]

Does it come standard with a scoring blade that runs off the primary motor, or come standard with its own motor?
The space needed is something I had a question about. If the table is only 8.5’ long, Why would it need 20’ front to back? Is it just so that you can actually walk in front of or behind it?
Also if it has a 50” rip capacity to the right of blade, and you put say an 8’ sheet of plywood on the sliding table to the left of blade, wouldn’t this only be 12 ish feet of space from left to right?

I’ll look into the mobility kit, but at 1500 lbs and its size; hopefully I can just set it and leave it.


The front-back space for the saw needs to be about 20 feet because you have to slide from 8.5 feet in front of the blade to 8.5 feet in back of the blade in order to move the whole length of a sheet of plywood through the blade.

The side-side distance is about 12 feet from the far right edge of the saw to the end of the outrigger fence. However, you will probably want to do something about dust collection. Most solutions for this come from the right of the blade. For me, this means about 12" of space to the right of the saw, making the total width 13'. Then, because the outrigger doesn't retract, you either have to have a few more feet to move around it, or take it off every time you use it. Now you're up to 16'+. It's not quite 20', but pretty close, and that's assuming you don't want to move around the right side of the saw as well.

I have never tried the mobility kit, but I generally think that it's not a good idea to move the saw around. One of the first things you'll need to do is level it, and make sure you're not introducing any twist into the body of the saw that could throw the alignment off. Moving the saw around would require releveling the saw and checking the settings. It really is not designed to be moved. Maybe one of the smaller sliders that has a boxy body like Erik talked about might work (SC2 C, Nova Si 300 S), but the SC4E has that "T" shape he mentioned.

My saw runs the scoring blade off of the main motor. I don't really see why you would need a separate motor, since the saw has a 5HP motor. The scoring blade is tiny and only cuts 1/8" or less into the material so I can't imagine it pulls too much power away from the main blade.

[Jim Becker]

I kinda agree with Brian regarding mobility. For a small short stroke slider that's more the size of a North American cabinet saw, it's less of an issue making it mobile. But for something even a little larger, leveling is somewhat important and it needs to be absolutely stable on the floor when stationary because of how weight gets cantilevered out at the extension of the wagon in either direction. If the shop floor is sloped, across the slope is doable as it with the slope. In both orientations leveling is relatively easy. Diagonal...not so much. If I had to have one particular tool that was physically stationary in my shop all the time, it would be the slider.

[Jon Steffen]

For used machines Craigslist (widen your search area as needed), Woodweb, Sawmill Creek classifieds, MachineKing, Ex-Factory, machinery dealers that take old ones in trade. I like dealing directly with the seller but you have to be able to assess the machine's condition.

nice, i was checking out woodweb yesterday. i'll look at the others as well.


The side-side distance is about 12 feet from the far right edge of the saw to the end of the outrigger fence. However, you will probably want to do something about dust collection. Most solutions for this come from the right of the blade. For me, this means about 12" of space to the right of the saw, making the total width 13'. Then, because the outrigger doesn't retract, you either have to have a few more feet to move around it, or take it off every time you use it. Now you're up to 16'+. It's not quite 20', but pretty close, and that's assuming you don't want to move around the right side of the saw as well.

Thanks for this, helps me plan out where the saw is going to live in my shop. Kinda forgot about the dust collection port coming down from the ceiling. Glad I asked.

If you are in a position to just save “ a few thousand more I suggest that”
Maybe someday if my day job doubles or triples in earnings I'll be in the Patrick boat, but for now I think i'll be a happy hobbyist woodworker with single digit thousand dollars per machine.


[/COLOR]My 8'6" slider wagon on the S315WS requires 19' end to end for the wagon to have complete travel from pulled all the way back to pushed all the way forward. That's why I mentioned that if I had to downsize in the future, I'd sacrifice wagon length but not give up the crosscut precision of a slider by going with something like an SC2 or SC3 sized machine. I have a Festool tracksaw if I really need to rip full sheets in that scenario anyway.

----
Let's please remember the OP asked about "entry level". That certainly means different things to different people, but probably more of them think about the smaller SCM/Minimax and Hammer machines in that context rather than big, old iron, especially when space constraints come into play.
yeah i was thinking minimax, hammer, grizzly.

I'm sitting in my kitchen right now looking at our cabinets and thinking to myself, "I wonder what kind of saw was used to create these."

Well you all have given me much to consider, and i'm great-full. Now i need to continue figuring out my layout of the shop and keep an eye out for somebody selling a Ferrari for a Yugo price. :p

[Rick Potter]

Jim,

I can furnish you with an example of what I saved making a kitchen about 25 years ago.

I am a competent DIY guy, certainly not a 'fine woodworker', and so was my neighbor, who was a carpenter/framer. We both put in a new kitchen back then. The kitchens were roughly the same size.


He decided to buy pre-made white melamine cabinets and install them himself. He spent $4,000 for the cabinets, not counting the counter tops. They were installed by him in less than a week, then he had counter tops installed.

I decided to make my kitchen, and do it in red oak, with raised panels and doors. I also made each cabinet and drawer to my wife's specs to hold her utensils and pans. Some drawers were 28" long for all the silverware, others were 23" long rather than the 18" that came with his pre-made cabinets. A special upper cabinet fit the microwave, and a hidden door in the end of a run housed a 4" deep medicine or spice cabinet.

In the separate breakfast nook area I also made a cabinet as well as a two piece built in buffet. Each of the cabinets were made to fit the area they were in, with no filler strips like you get with pre-mades.

My cost for materials was $2800 for lumber, finishing stain and poly, epoxy drawer slides, hinges and handles. As with his...not counting the counter top, and I installed it. I had a unisaw, jointer, and a benchtop router table with a PC 690. Wow, what a difference track saw would have made.

To be fair, it took me two years, but I am a slow worker and she is patient, and I did it a cabinet at a time, putting up temporary counter top as I went. We also were extremely busy then, and took several vacations, and worked on other stuff around the house as needed. We did not let it interfere with our life, and were never without a working kitchen.

15 years ago we moved, and the daughter and her family moved into the old house. As of last week the kitchen is still looking good. It took me 3 years to do the kitchen here....getting older.

Prices have changed since then, but this should give you a little insight.

[Tony Rodoracio]

Going to be listing a used Hammer K3 winner here in the classifieds, hopefully this weekend. Located near Boise, Idaho.

[Mike Kreinhop]

Going to be listing a used Hammer K3 winner here in the classifieds, hopefully this weekend. Located near Boise, Idaho.

This would be a good time for Jon to become a Contributor. :)

[Jon Steffen]

Jim,

I can furnish you with an example of what I saved making a kitchen about 25 years ago.

I am a competent DIY guy, certainly not a 'fine woodworker', and so was my neighbor, who was a carpenter/framer. We both put in a new kitchen back then. The kitchens were roughly the same size.


He decided to buy pre-made white melamine cabinets and install them himself. He spent $4,000 for the cabinets, not counting the counter tops. They were installed by him in less than a week, then he had counter tops installed.

I decided to make my kitchen, and do it in red oak, with raised panels and doors. I also made each cabinet and drawer to my wife's specs to hold her utensils and pans. Some drawers were 28" long for all the silverware, others were 23" long rather than the 18" that came with his pre-made cabinets. A special upper cabinet fit the microwave, and a hidden door in the end of a run housed a 4" deep medicine or spice cabinet.

In the separate breakfast nook area I also made a cabinet as well as a two piece built in buffet. Each of the cabinets were made to fit the area they were in, with no filler strips like you get with pre-mades.

My cost for materials was $2800 for lumber, finishing stain and poly, epoxy drawer slides, hinges and handles. As with his...not counting the counter top, and I installed it. I had a unisaw, jointer, and a benchtop router table with a PC 690. Wow, what a difference track saw would have made.

To be fair, it took me two years, but I am a slow worker and she is patient, and I did it a cabinet at a time, putting up temporary counter top as I went. We also were extremely busy then, and took several vacations, and worked on other stuff around the house as needed. We did not let it interfere with our life, and were never without a working kitchen.

15 years ago we moved, and the daughter and her family moved into the old house. As of last week the kitchen is still looking good. It took me 3 years to do the kitchen here....getting older.

Prices have changed since then, but this should give you a little insight.
Yeah, I cant imagine what you would spend now on all that if you spent $2800 on it 25 years ago.

Now at age 37, i understand why my dad had so many unfinished projects. He had no dedicated shop and had 3 children. I have 2 kids and am so frustrated with tripping over all the stuff in the garage that I avoid larger projects. Smaller projects take longer.

I think with my shop, and the right tools I can bang out the cabinets for the basement "finishing" job and take my time on the garage cabinets and redoing the kitchen. The kitchen isn't that bad anyways.

Our last house had a 2.5 car garage, heated, cooled, with a 60SF half bath in it. It was awesome. New shop will be heated and cooled with just a utility sink, but it'll be awesome too.

[Jon Steffen]

What is a contributor? i'm assuming I donate to the forum and I get access to the classified section?

[Alex Zeller]

Money is always going to be a place people can't agree on. To some an extra few thousand is not really much of an issue while for others it's an extra piece of equipment or two. $2500 would get you a pretty nice 8" jointer during a sale. If it took a couple years to save spare money to come up with that $2500 that would mean your choice could be buy a nicer slider now and then wait years before adding another needed piece for your shop. Only you can set your budget because you know how much you will be able to save/ spend. What others can help you is with trying to figure out what tools you will want.

[Jim Becker]

What is a contributor? i'm assuming I donate to the forum and I get access to the classified section?

Exactly...and access to private messages, photos, etc. Thanks in advance for supporting this great forum site! Only six bucks minimum, too...

------

I did my own kitchen in 2003. Including high-end appliances, I invested about $12K and $8K of that was the range. I did replace the uppers a couple years ago with deeper ones, but the material cost was minimal, honestly.

For SCM/Minimax...here's a great contact to get help:

--
Sam Blasco
Minimax Product Line Manager
sam.blasco@scmgroup.com (sblasco@scmgroup.com)
512-931-1962 (tel:512-931-1962) (shop)
512-796-3036 (tel:512-796-3036) (mobile)
866-216-2166 (main office/parts/tech services)

For Hammer...contact Erik Loza who is a vendor member here to ascertain who the right representative is for your geography.

[Jon Steffen]

Thanks, i'm now a contributor! and i emailed Sam Blasco. Has anybody heard of www.akinsmachinery.com (http://www.akinsmachinery.com)? I think i emailed SCM usa and then somebody from Milwaukee branch of AkinsMachinery contacted me about my inquiry. They said they were a "gold" level SCM dealer. Just wonder if they're good.

[Patrick Walsh]

Specifically ask for Rick Akins. He is machine salesman and just human being gold.

I’m not kidding. I’m not a Scm guy but man I sure wish I could buy my preferred brand from Rick as he is that nice or invested in his job. What one I don’t care as to me it has meant someone I could count on.

Last shop I worked in I was the shop manager and organized and directed a few machine purchases. Akins also being the regional seller to my area. We purchased a dander and a planer and each and everytime I got calls in the following weeks just to make sure we were happy. When we were not he had a service tech out within two days max free of charge.

Now Akins did get purchased by Wurth a few or couple years ahah but rick stayed aboard. We purchased both machines under Wurth and all was great.




Thanks, i'm now a contributor! and i emailed Sam Blasco. Has anybody heard of www.akinsmachinery.com (http://www.akinsmachinery.com)? I think i emailed SCM usa and then somebody from Milwaukee branch of AkinsMachinery contacted me about my inquiry. They said they were a "gold" level SCM dealer. Just wonder if they're good.

[Jon Steffen]

Specifically ask for Rick Akins. He is machine salesman and just human being gold.

I’m not kidding. I’m not a Scm guy but man I sure wish I could buy my preferred brand from Rick as he is that nice or invested in his job. What one I don’t care as to me it has meant someone I could count on.

Last shop I worked in I was the shop manager and organized and directed a few machine purchases. Akins also being the regional seller to my area. We purchased a dander and a planer and each and everytime I got calls in the following weeks just to make sure we were happy. When we were not he had a service tech out within two days max free of charge.

Now Akins did get purchased by Wurth a few or couple years ahah but rick stayed aboard. We purchased both machines under Wurth and all was great.
Well that is very nice to hear. I wonder if Rick is still there, most likely.

The sales guy that emailed me in Milwaukee told me a bit about himself, was a local guy to Central Wisconsin for years before moving down there and getting into sales. I asked about 6 questions and he provided a ton of supportive/detail to his answers.

[Izzy Charo]

I'm probably (almost surely) in the minority here, but I'll add my 2 cents as well.... I had a Unisaw that I purchased in the mid-1980s and served me very well as a hobbyist. I was intrigued with the idea of a slider and based on my smallish shop size bought the Hammer 48x48, and sold the Uni. I was disappointed with the quality of the Hammer. The table extensions seemed flimsy, the fence was "clunky" and lacked a hairline cursor, and changing over to a dado blade was cumbersome... Since I mostly do furniture, and not cabinets, I solid it and bought a Sawstop, which I love. The safety feature of the Sawstop is a an important, but just as important is that it's a solid, accurate saw. I use track saw to deal with sheet goods, and make finish cuts with an Incra 5000 on the Sawstop. Note also that if you add a sliding table to a traditional cabinet saw, to try to have the best features of both types of saws, that (at least on the ones I've seen), you need to re-set the fence to 90 degrees each time; and then make a series of cuts to see how close you actually got it. If there are sliding attachments that keep the 90 degree setting (other than the very large Sawstop one, which takes up a LOT of space) that might be something I would add.

[Jim Becker]

Sliding attachments for cabinet saws are not really the same as a true slider...they are not right up to the blade which in essence makes them a very expensive miter bar that replaces one that rides in the miter slots. The are very good for squaring panels that are of reasonable size, however, so it depends on what one wants or needs to do.

[Peter Kelly]

The tracksaw is awesome,
but its slower and not acurrate for repeatable cuts unless i use some kind of parallel guide thing, but even that isn’t super accurate.I own an SC2 but I’ve also made a few frameless kitchens with a track saw, MFT (https://www.festoolusa.com/products/workplace-organisation/multifunction-table/495315---mft3), large work table and parallel guides. The system is as accurate and repeatable as you set it up.

Lots of aftermarket accessories if the Festool brand ones don’t appeal to you.
https://tsoproducts.com/tso-parallel-guide-system/
https://www.senecawoodworking.com/products/parallel-guide-system-for-incra-t-track-plus

[Lloyd T. Wilson]

I bought my MiniMax SC4e with an 8.5' slider 16 months ago. The machine runs so smooth compared to my early 70s 12" Craftsman contractor table saw that I inherited from my Dad, and the Ryobi BT300 that I wore out the aluminum threads of the blade elevation housing before the Craftsman. The SC4e cuts very clean with an Amana blade, and the scoring blade eliminates almost 100 percent of tear-out. It also cuts a very nice dado with the 8" Freud blade. Nice for breaking down 4' x 8' plywood sheets, and for cutting small pieces with a Fritz and Franz jig. I've only moved my SC4e twice, with my pallet jack, once to give an extra 12" of space between the slider and a chop saw bench and once to increase the space another 30" to fit in a 12" Grizzly jointer/planer. Each time I make sure the SC4e is level. If I had to do it over again, I think might have bought a MiniMax combination slider/shaper/jointer/planer.

[Jon Steffen]

Now since you've all been so nice, i'm going to show you some eye candy and share a story. About 2-3 years ago a co-worker told me her great uncle was in his late 80s and had developed ocular degeneration, along with diabetes, bad back, ect. She said he had "some wood" he wanted to get rid of and I should go check it out. So I traveled the 20 miles to go see him.

He was selling pine and oak he had a sawmill rough cut for him 30-40 years ago. He had been moving it from shed to lean-to to you name it for 30-40 years. He used a bunch of it for siding on a shed he built, but never got around to using the rest. I estimated it was about 6000-7000 board feet, and after I shot him a number and he countered I walked away paying around 30CENTS per board foot.

Some was rotten, some was beautiful and most of it could be turned into something really nice.

Well after 4-5 trips with my dad's 6x10 trailer and building a 18x20 car port type shelter for the wood with crushed granite base, my wife was about fed up with all the wood and all the time it was taking me to acquire it, so I sold about 25-30% of the whole stack, that remained at the great uncle's house for my cost about $700. I sold it to a local wood-worker that had built some live edge tables for our office. He was very nice and lent me a tool once, showed me his shop. He said I gave him such a great deal (obviously) that he wanted to make me a piece of furniture for passing the great deal onto him.

My wife and I spent an afternoon spreading all the 1x boards onto the lawn to find the pretty ones. We moved those into the basement and I started making a pretty "barnwood like" accent wall in our tv room.
436166436167436168436173

I went out to the one remaining stack that's not under the shed, and YEP, the tarp is leaking and the top rows are soaked. =( I need to move them ASAP......also I forgot how long most of these are. I would say the majority are 10-12 Feet...........Making me entirely rethink the length of the sliding saw I "should" buy.

I've laughed a bunch with another buddy of mine, "This CHEAP pile of old wood is becoming rather EXPENSIVE. Built a dedicated wood shed, considering a super expensive saw, need a 12-16" jointer.......lmao.

Here are some photos of the wood shed and pretty boards in the basement.
436169436170436171436172

[Jim Becker]

Very nice acquiring such a beautiful inventory of material to work with!

As to your slider decision...keep in mind that there's no rule that says you have to rip really long boards. ;) My work method is to rough cut to component length and it's rare that a project I make would require a board that's even longer than 6'. Chalk is my friend for this. Sometime's I'll skim something rough on my J/P to be sure I can see the grain and color for matching before I cut down to length, but again, it's rare that I need to work a really long board. The only recent project for that was a Twin-XL over Queen bunkbed project where the side stretchers were in that 7' range because of standard bed sizing. My slider has an 8'6" wagon. Most of the time, I use a fraction of that.

[Jon Steffen]

As to your slider decision...keep in mind that there's no rule that says you have to rip really long boards. ;)
lol, funny you should mention that, i was wondering yesterday, "is there any reason why you can't cross cut plywood before ripping it?"
If i'm going to cut up a 4x8 sheet into 6 equal pieces for the sides of cabinets for example, any issue with cutting it into 3-48"x32" (minus kerf) pieces then ripping that down to 6-24"x32" (minus kerf both sides) pieces?

[Jim Becker]

Whatever gets you the parts with the veneer figure facing in the correct orientation is just fine. There's no "requirement" to rip a sheet first...just like there's no "requirement" to use the rip fence on a slider to rip solid boards. :) That said, optimization of sheets can come into play sometimes and you may want/need to do a particular cut or cuts before some others to make that happen.

[Jon Steffen]

Whatever gets you the parts with the veneer figure facing in the correct orientation is just fine. There's no "requirement" to rip a sheet first...just like there's no "requirement" to use the rip fence on a slider to rip solid boards. :) That said, optimization of sheets can come into play sometimes and you may want/need to do a particular cut or cuts before some others to make that happen.
okay, good. I assumed that was the case, but my father once told me a saying, "to assume makes an ASS out of U and ME", . its stuck with me i guess.

[Jim Becker]

Unless you're using MDO, even if you're painting the cabinets, keeping the veneer grain running in the same direction will yield the best result unless you're going to take the time tot do some major grain filling. When you can cross cut first, I find the material handling is a little easier...sheets are heavy and with cross cutting it's (at least for me) a little easier getting a full sheet up on the outrigger/wagon than maneuvering the sheet in the "less supported" ripping orientation. If I had a larger shop, I'd have some kind of lift table or other "thing" to help with material movement, but I can't use or fit anything like that in my current shop. Fortunately, I mostly work with solid stock.

[Jon Steffen]

Unless you're using MDO, even if you're painting the cabinets, keeping the veneer grain running in the same direction will yield the best result unless you're going to take the time tot do some major grain filling.
You're saying aesthetically, keep the grain of whatever paneling youre using consistent? So if one vertical panel has the grain lengthwise, it would be smart to continue all vertical panels to have the grain lengthwise as well?

[Patrick Kane]

I did several huge acquisitions of "cheap" lumber like you, and each time i ask myself, "why did i do this!?!?". The labor involved with moving that much wood by hand is always awful. Like your experience, i ended up with 'free lumber' and some profit for my time. The one time was very much worth it, maybe 2,000 bdft of exotics--ipe, teak, cumaru, bubinga, wenge--with another 4-5,000 feet of domestics like QS oak, walnut etc. That was an incredible pain, but enough leftover to pay for my used Felder. My last time was a significant amount of labor and time to part out. I think that was my lesson not to buy large lumber lots again unless they are very valuable species. Trying to sell flat sawn 4/4 oak etc. is a waste of time.

I lean towards a higher quality used saw instead of raising your budget a lot, but realize that isnt for everybody. I also encouraged the longer slider, because 8-9' should cover your ripping needs 90% of the time. When you want to rip something longer than your sliding table, you usually cant do it clamped to the sliding table(there are some jigs to overcome this), and you typically need to remove the crosscut fence/outrigger to make the rip cut. This is if your offcut will be wider than 1/2"-1" depending on the saw. This isnt too too awful, but depending on the build quality of the saw, now you might be forced to re-calibrate the crosscut fence to your blade when you re-attach the outrigger and fence. If you have to do that for every project, then that is an enormous PITA, in my opinion. Finally, a longer capacity just makes it easier to do smaller jobs. For example, i found it easier/better to plane or joint an 11" board on a 12" jointer or planer, than a 12" wide board on a 12" wide machine. I dont have a 48-49" sliding table, but i imagine crosscutting a sheet of plywood is a little cramped. Not as much room for clamps or a FF jig. What you describe with breaking up the sheet into smaller pieces will get you to the same end result, but you will make many more cuts to get there. With a 9' stroke, you can true up one length of the sheet. After that is trued, you use that as your reference edge for crosscutting. What you describe with breaking the sheet into 4 smaller pieces before taking to your saw means each smaller piece will need to have one edge trued before crosscutting to length. Otherwise, you are trusting factory edges etc, which sorta defeats the purpose of owning a quality sliding saw.

[Jim Becker]

You're saying aesthetically, keep the grain of whatever paneling youre using consistent? So if one vertical panel has the grain lengthwise, it would be smart to continue all vertical panels to have the grain lengthwise as well?

Yes, I'm saying that...it just plain looks better, even under paint. For shop fixtures, I might deviate just to be efficient, but for cabinetry that will go in my own or someone else's house...consistency is important. And you actually can by veneer sheet goods with the grain direction rotated 90º if necessary for a given project to maximize material utilization. You can't always get it in every species, but a good commercial supplier will have options.

[Jon Steffen]

I did several huge acquisitions of "cheap" lumber like you, and each time i ask myself, "why did i do this!?!?". The labor involved with moving that much wood by hand is always awful. Like your experience, i ended up with 'free lumber' and some profit for my time. The one time was very much worth it, maybe 2,000 bdft of exotics--ipe, teak, cumaru, bubinga, wenge--with another 4-5,000 feet of domestics like QS oak, walnut etc. That was an incredible pain, but enough leftover to pay for my used Felder. My last time was a significant amount of labor and time to part out. I think that was my lesson not to buy large lumber lots again unless they are very valuable species. Trying to sell flat sawn 4/4 oak etc. is a waste of time.

I lean towards a higher quality used saw instead of raising your budget a lot, but realize that isnt for everybody. I also encouraged the longer slider, because 8-9' should cover your ripping needs 90% of the time. When you want to rip something longer than your sliding table, you usually cant do it clamped to the sliding table(there are some jigs to overcome this), and you typically need to remove the crosscut fence/outrigger to make the rip cut. This is if your offcut will be wider than 1/2"-1" depending on the saw. This isnt too too awful, but depending on the build quality of the saw, now you might be forced to re-calibrate the crosscut fence to your blade when you re-attach the outrigger and fence. If you have to do that for every project, then that is an enormous PITA, in my opinion. Finally, a longer capacity just makes it easier to do smaller jobs. For example, i found it easier/better to plane or joint an 11" board on a 12" jointer or planer, than a 12" wide board on a 12" wide machine. I dont have a 48-49" sliding table, but i imagine crosscutting a sheet of plywood is a little cramped. Not as much room for clamps or a FF jig. What you describe with breaking up the sheet into smaller pieces will get you to the same end result, but you will make many more cuts to get there. With a 9' stroke, you can true up one length of the sheet. After that is trued, you use that as your reference edge for crosscutting. What you describe with breaking the sheet into 4 smaller pieces before taking to your saw means each smaller piece will need to have one edge trued before crosscutting to length. Otherwise, you are trusting factory edges etc, which sorta defeats the purpose of owning a quality sliding saw.
Did I do this correctly, if every side of every panel should be cut because you can't trust the factory, i count 11 cuts if you rip first and 13 cuts if you cross cut first.
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[Jon Steffen]

Yes, I'm saying that...it just plain looks better, even under paint. For shop fixtures, I might deviate just to be efficient, but for cabinetry that will go in my own or someone else's house...consistency is important. And you actually can by veneer sheet goods with the grain direction rotated 90º if necessary for a given project to maximize material utilization. You can't always get it in every species, but a good commercial supplier will have options.
Okay, i'm on the same page. I didn't know you can get grain rotated 90 on some panels. That's good to know.

[Jim Becker]

If you get a program like CutListPlus, you can play with the optimization that also keeps in mind grain direction. Obviously, component size matters...as does sheet size. We often think of sheet goods in terms of 4'x8', but the "good stuff" is often slightly larger which helps for accounting for kerf width. Most of the veneer plywood I get from Industrial Plywood is about 48.5" wide and 96.5" long, give or take (plywood is made in metric size) for example. You also need to account for thickness when dimensioning parts if your exterior cabinet dimension needs to be something exact...plywood thickness is also metric but also slightly variable. Measure with a caliper in multiple locations if a finished case dimension is critical.

[Warren Lake]

if you want the best stuff 4 x 8's then you get your panels made, or more specifically you buy cut to size. You give them a list of all your panel sizes and layout details and core and maybe choose the veneer, the veneer is laid up on the panels for you. There are number of places that do this.

[Jon Steffen]

If you get a program like CutListPlus, you can play with the optimization that also keeps in mind grain direction. Obviously, component size matters...as does sheet size. We often think of sheet goods in terms of 4'x8', but the "good stuff" is often slightly larger which helps for accounting for kerf width. Most of the veneer plywood I get from Industrial Plywood is about 48.5" wide and 96.5" long, give or take (plywood is made in metric size) for example. You also need to account for thickness when dimensioning parts if your exterior cabinet dimension needs to be something exact...plywood thickness is also metric but also slightly variable. Measure with a caliper in multiple locations if a finished case dimension is critical.
Is Industrial Plywood a business with 2 locations in Pennsylvania? Gotta find a place like that near me in central wisconsin.

if you want the best stuff 4 x 8's then you get your panels made, or more specifically you buy cut to size. You give them a list of all your panel sizes and layout details and core and maybe choose the veneer, the veneer is laid up on the panels for you. There are number of places that do this.
Sounds expensive, maybe i'll stumble on this during my plywood search.

[Jim Becker]

Is Industrial Plywood a business with 2 locations in Pennsylvania? Gotta find a place like that near me in central wisconsin.

Yes. My deliveries come out of the Reading location. Great folks. Really nice material. And if a piece "sucks" for some reason, they replace it. Further, they deliver two days each week to my area, so if I book a project I can generally have material within a few days without having to run around to transport and lift it myself. The $300 minimum for free delivery ($11.50 fuel charge only) isn't very hard to make and if I need to in a rare case, I'll buy an extra piece of something I know I'll use to hit that mark, such as "close out" shop grade stuff/minor damaged pieces for utility, templates, etc. It would be unusual if you didn't have one or more firms in your general area that are "real" sheet goods suppliers. Talk to some local cabinet makers about who they buy from. Most will sell to individuals, but if you're faced with only choices that only sell to the trades, you can often work a deal with a local cabinet shop to have your needs added to their order for a small incentive, if you catch my drift.


Sounds expensive, maybe i'll stumble on this during my plywood search.

Custom laid up veneer plywood is a staple for some architecturally driven projects so despite the cost for "custom", it fills an important role in the supply chain.

[Warren Lake]

i'll lay up my own veneer or use cut to size for best results. Sometimes pre veneered stuff from suppliers is not nice enough. You choose the details and layout rather than cutting your way out of sheets that can limit you. Panels are made slightly over size then you cut them to the finish size.

[Jon Steffen]

I've got a friend that's the sales manager for a local cabinet shop, I'll ask him who they buy through. I did some googling and found several options as well.

Have you guys heard of formwood. Com? A local plywood seller appears to use them for their non-laminate panels and resells them?

This local place has really good Google reviews.