Sharpening Japanese chisels

[Jon Snider]

After reading through the past 50 or so pages of the Neander sub forum I’m confused about what are best choices for sharpening some new Kikuhiromaru bench chisels which are waiting for me to pick up at UPS.

Single bevel (25 degrees?) vs double micro bevel

Ok to grind on my CBN wheel before honing?

I realize, in the spirit of discussion of numerous other sharpening threads, there may not be a best single answer, but would appreciate some advice and then go from there.

For context, on my PMV-11, A2 and O1 chisels, I usually use a combination of wheel grinding (if necessary) and either diamond plate or water stones. I do have some ceramic stones on the way to try out. It’s a disease.:)

thx
jon

[Paul Saffold]

Stanley Covington's blog is filled with wit and wisdom about all manner of Japanese tools. I look foreward to his latest. This is the last of his series on sharpening. https://covingtonandsons.com/category/tool-maintenance/sharpening/
If you look around you will see he has his posts very well organized by topic. Though I have but a few Japanese tools, and definitely not professional grade, I enjoy reading and learning about them.
Paul

[Phil Mueller]

+1 on the Stanley Covington blog.

[Andrew Hughes]

I’ve not found it necessary to hollow grind any of my Japanese chisels. I use Shapton stones with the side sharpening method and they cut really fast.
I do hollow grind my A2 Lie Neilson plane blades then stone them.
Look toward the side sharpening method and save the steel that we pay lot for.

Good Luck

[ken hatch]

Tradition has a single bevel and sharpened so the transition between the soft iron and hard steel is retained. Some types of stones and stropping hide the transition as can a bevel that is not flat.

Remember shiny does not mean sharp. Stones that give a smokey polish are highly prized in Japan for very good reasons.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

Jon

You can hollow grind, and you can use a secondary bevel. It's up to you. My preference is the traditional single bevel, freehand honing on a full face. Bench chisels at 30 degrees and slicks at 25 degrees. I use waterstones for all Japanese chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Howard Pollack]

I’ve not found it necessary to hollow grind any of my Japanese chisels. I use Shapton stones with the side sharpening method and they cut really fast.
I do hollow grind my A2 Lie Neilson plane blades then stone them.
Look toward the side sharpening method and save the steel that we pay lot for.

Good Luck

Hi- Do you side sharpen with a jig or free-hand? If you use a jig, which one? Thanks. -Howard

[Andrew Hughes]

Hi- Do you side sharpen with a jig or free-hand? If you use a jig, which one? Thanks. -Howard

Yes I do sometimes the sharp skate. Just yesterday I had to us on one of my very narrow Dovetail chisels. Mostly I don’t need it my hands are trained.
Lucky for me I got learn first hand with Stanley when he was doing shows.
Heres the one I have.

[Derek Cohen]

I have the original Sharp Skate honing guide - before it had a “Mark” ... I think it is in Mark 4 now - and reviewed it in 2007.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html

I quite like it for the way it hones, however it is a little finicky to set up. It is one way to learn the rudiments of side sharpening to transfer to freehand. Of course, you can use any honing guide with most Japanese chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Hughes]

I have the original Sharp Skate honing guide - before it had a “Mark” ... I think it is in Mark 4 now - and reviewed it in 2007.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html

I quite like it for the way it hones, however it is a little finicky to set up. It is one way to learn the rudiments of side sharpening to transfer to freehand. Of course, you can use any honing guide with most Japanese chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek what are your thoughts on Stanleys new version 4.
I noticed it ride on a bar of hss instead of wheels.

[Derek Cohen]

Andrew, I have not had the interest to look into the Mark 4. I work freehand 99% of the time. Like you, I may use the SS to restore a flat surface or on a particularly narrow blade (even then ...). The Mark 1 (or the Veritas or the LN) do the job for BU plane blades (which require a specific angle for the micro secondary bevel). My SS has not had that much use that the wheels are worn or that I have thought about replacing it ... only had it 13 years or so :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Hachet]

Jon

You can hollow grind, and you can use a secondary bevel. It's up to you. My preference is the traditional single bevel, freehand honing on a full face. Bench chisels at 30 degrees and slicks at 25 degrees. I use waterstones for all Japanese chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I am going to try oil stones with mine.

[andy bessette]

I have the original Sharp Skate honing guide - before it had a “Mark” ... I think it is in Mark 4 now - and reviewed it in 2007.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html

I quite like it for the way it hones, however it is a little finicky to set up. It is one way to learn the rudiments of side sharpening to transfer to freehand. Of course, you can use any honing guide with most Japanese chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you for sharing your review.

[Andrew Hughes]

Stanley’s new sharp skate version 4 will travel the blade in any direction over the stone. It’s got me interested I’ll have to save up my lunch money first.
The one I have with wheels only moves side to side.
Id say that’s a significant design change.

[Jon Snider]

Thanks all. Good advice. Does anyone have good sources/links for Japanese water stones? I can find several on Google but no idea of quality and from what I read that can vary a lot.

jon

[Jeffrey Hood]

Got these after reading Stan's blog...

https://www.fine-tools.com/bester.html

Best stones I have ever used... they cut amazingly well and fast... and are right in line with prices of other comparable stones... much better than the King stones that I had before...

JH

[David Bassett]

... Best stones I have ever used....

Lee Valley has those, in the medium to fine grits, closer to home.

Stu, from Tools from Japan, used to recommend the Sigma Power stones. Those don't seem to be imported, if they're made at all, and have been replaced by the Select II stones in stores here. Again LV has many of the Sigma Select II stones. But these are more the high-alloy steels and have been reported to be a waste on steel like (most) Japanese chisels use.

Stu also recommended an Suehiro Cerax and Rika as a "budget set". When his store was open he had a very good price, but at least they seem readily available on Amazon at reasonable cost. He suggested the Cerax 320, Cerax 1000, and the Rika 5000 as very well matched and cost effective set. I've used these and can vouch for them. Easy, quick, and not too much fuss. They do like short soaks, in my experience.

Another recommendation I've seen frequently, though I don't have any experience with them, that is available from Amazon is the Shapton Pro stones. They are true splash & go. Christopher Schwarz uses and recommends them. (I think Fitz does too.) I think I'd have tried these, if I really couldn't soak for 5-10 mins. (May still give them a try someday.)

Lastly, Naniwa Pro (formerly Chosera) has been recommended by it's fans. I think it's a love them or hate them stone. But the only real negative I've heard is they crack if not dried very slowly and carefully.

One thought, if you have friends, a woodworking club, or a class where you can try stones before committing you'd probably save some time and money. I think most stones will easily sharpen most chisels and the biggest variable is personal preference.

[Jon Snider]

Sorry, wasn’t clear. I was referring to natural Japanese stones. Thx.

[ken hatch]

Sorry, wasn’t clear. I was referring to natural Japanese stones. Thx.

Jon,

Be careful out there, they can be addicting and harmful to your pocket book :p. The truth is you only need one but two are nice to have and if you do not buy collector stones and "pretty" isn't important they are semi-reasonable. One is https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ another is So's site but I'm on the road and can't find it Brian Holcomb should be able to help.

ken

[Lawrence Burkett]

Agree that Maksim at Japanese natural stones is great (although also usually one of the most expensive). Another one is: https://www.aframestokyo.com/ (usually with less expensive options) or http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/ (awesome but slow and possibly not shipping now).

I haven't ever interacted with Stanley Covington, but people seem to like him a lot (I like his blog). Probably others could advice if he can offer stones.

[ken hatch]

Agree that Maksim at Japanese natural stones is great (although also usually one of the most expensive). Another one is: https://www.aframestokyo.com/ (usually with less expensive options) or http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/ (awesome but slow and possibly not shipping now).

I haven't ever interacted with Stanley Covington, but people seem to like him a lot (I like his blog). Probably others could advice if he can offer stones.

He does not. good on tools but no stones.

ken

[David Bassett]

Sorry, wasn’t clear. I was referring to natural Japanese stones. Thx.

That's an even deeper twistier rabbit hole!



Jon,

Be careful out there, they can be addicting and harmful to your pocket book :p. The truth is you only need one but two are nice to have and if you do not buy collector stones and "pretty" isn't important they are semi-reasonable. One is https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ another is So's site but I'm on the road and can't find it Brian Holcomb should be able to help.

ken

JNS has an outstanding reputation, but is in Denmark and I'm not sure how well packages are flowing right now. There are several others overseas people have praised, but I don't seem to have bookmarked them. I do know of several US stores with good reputations that stock some J-Nats, though I haven't sampled their stone offerings and can't really rate that part of their business. (You can find any of these with a search, I'm sure.) Japanese Knife Imports, in Los Angeles. Bernal Cutlery, in San Francisco & Oakland. Hida Tool, in Berkeley. And Carbon Knife Co, in Denver.

Another option, if you're adventurous, is to buy from Japanese auctions and have the stones shipped in bulk to the US. David Weaver has described doing this (on another forum) and characterized it as kissing a lot of frogs to find a few princes. He doesn't seem to count his time, but concludes he saved money overall because he was able to break even on the frogs by selling them on eBay with good photos and accurate descriptions. I'm sure I'd lose my mind long before I found any of the princely offerings. :)


ETA: BTW- JKI is the only place I've ever shopped that makes LV service look pedestrian. E.g. never once have I had Rob Lee call me up and tell me to change my order because buying the expensive item was wasting my money. Of course JKI is a much smaller business and is based on high quality and incredible service.

[Don Dorn]

For me, just like any other chisel. Free hand ala Paul Sellers. The back on a plate with 600 grit sandpaper until the hollow shows. To grind, I set it at 25 degrees on the belt sander for a second or two. To me, chisels are tools, regardless of where they originated.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I sharpen my WS #2 chisels and plane irons with oil stones. Fine india > soft ark > translucent ark. Leaves a very nice finish with good contrast between hard and soft steel.

I sharpen them full flat bevel, mostly because it looks nice that way. Sometimes at the end of sharpening I will raise the tool a hair and put on a slight microbevel on the translucent ark.