T23 restoration

[GregoryP Lewis]

My T23 arrived today!!!

The truck carrying it had to park on a slight incline which made the delivery nerve racking. Watching the driver move it towards the back, onto the ramp, made me nervous as it would slide a foot or so after he set it down. The lift gate appeared too weak to hold the weight as it shuddered under the load. Once on the driveway I towed it up the slight incline to it's new home in my garage, on my pallet jack with my son driving the rig.

Taking stock of what I had bought sight unseen revealed a machine which apparently lived a hard life. There are dings in the iron top around the power feed, a missing grate on the back, damaged louvers on the side vent, spindle lock and height lock not working, no power cord and many missing and damaged levers and knobs. Which is all as I thought it would be.

The raise and lower mechanism worked pretty well considering it's condition. I couldn't get the tilt to budge.

I blew out a bunch of sawdust and set about spraying penetrating oil on the ways for the tilt and the cast rings in the top. I fixed the spindle lock cable and rerouted the power feeder cord through the arm of the feeder. I am rewiring the feeder when I install the new power cord. I had hoped to get it under power and went and bought the 10/4 soow cord. I thought I had a male end at home but found out I didn't, so could not power it up today.

I hope to use it for a few weeks at least before I tear it down for a refurb. My new door cutters arrived from Rangate today as well. Expensive day.

I have a lot of questions already! I bought an Aigner fence and Centrex for my Felder that are now going on the Martin. I don't see how the fence is going to mount and hope I don't have to buy a new hood to use it. I also have to figure out the mount for the Centrex.

Anyway, here are some pictures as it sits now.

[GregoryP Lewis]

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[Joe Jensen]

Replying to subscribe. Auction purchase? I'm envious...joe

[GregoryP Lewis]

No, I wish. It would have probably been much cheaper! I put a note up on wood web. I am still looking for a T75.
G

[Matt Day]

That looks like a serious bit of kit! Congrats

[GregoryP Lewis]

Matt,
Thanks, it is a beast! It's smaller in size but way heavier than my Felder Combination machine.

I spent most of the day cleaning and inspecting it. It's pretty rough. All the oil and lube lines were broken or not hooked up. Both the spindle lock and height lock cables were not hooked up and the height lock cable is pretty bent up. The wires were not connected to the oil pump.

I did get the tilt working finally, so both and the raise handle work smoothly now.

Bought a new cord and plug and rewired the power feeder. The bummer is that when I went to start it up- nothing! Power feeder worked fine and after an hour or two of trouble shooting I discovered there were no fuses inside. Called the PO and he doesn't remember taking them out but he said it came from a working shop and he had to wait for them to stop using it. He is supposed to call tomorrow. I called Ed at Simantec/ Martin and he is looking into new ones. I hope they are a generic fuse.

They look to be about 5-1/2" long and 1" in diameter. There are two of them. They would probably look like the fuses that look like a small stick of dynamite. Is anyone familiar with them as far as model, type etc. Joe Calhoon sent me the electrical diagram and it appears that two legs are fused so I am assuming they would be no larger the 240v in case the machine was wired 440v or higher. Right now it's at 240v so they would only be carrying 120, and 10 amp each?

I searched for the DLS 25 II listed on the panel with no luck.

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Greg

[Bobby Robbinett]

How old is this Martin shaper? I would recommend rebuilding the spindle while you are working on it before you start making doors. A machine that was used that hard probably needs new bearings in the spindle. Not a difficult task but you could pull the spindle and send it to Martin for them to rebuild it. I also suggest getting a dial indicator for checking runout when you reinstall the spindle.


Would love to find a used Martin shaper at an affordable price. We are looking to buy a used SCMI T110 through T130 at work but they are difficult to find for a decent deal.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Bobby...take the time to rebuild the core with new bearings, etc. If that stuff is moving smoothly and accurately the cosmetic stuff will not matter relative to the quality of work it produces, for the most part.

[David Kumm]

I think Patrick here did an oiler replacement you might want to check out. The spindle bearings will be ABEC 7 precision phenolic cage 62xx. They can be sourced much more cheaply on ebay than buying from a dealer. Proper lubrication is huge and they don't just sit in oil but are a pump and drip system. Fuses will be easy to source. I would guess the motor is 7.5 hp so the fuses would be in the 20 amp range.

Joe Calhoon did a Martin restore and is a wealth of knowledge too. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

I'd plan on a bearing replacement due to the damaged oil system, but I'd run it first to verify.

Just spinning the spindle by hand can give you some insight into their condition.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Greg
looks like 30 amp fuses
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[Ron Selzer]

as to the voltage of the fuse higher is always ok, lower is not. IE, you install 600vac fuses on 220 vac machine and will work just fine.
Amps is more critical and probably slow blow/time delay.
Fuses are inexpensive on ebay
Good luck
Ron

[GregoryP Lewis]

Thanks Joe,
Much appreciated. It looks like TRS 30R it is.

Everyone,
Thanks for the feedback. A bearing replacement is definitely in the works. I want to get it running and use it for a few weeks first- then I'll tear it down and do the rebuild. Joe's rebuild thread has been a great resource.

Greg



Hi Greg
looks like 30 amp fuses
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[David Kumm]

I think I have some of those old fuses. The ends unscrew and you can replace the filaments to get different amp limits. They aren't used anymore because if you don't tighten the ends down, the contact isn't good. Some fuse holders are adjustable so the shorter modern ones can be used.

As to bearings, keep in mind that the cage and the clearance are important for spindle bearings of the size Martin uses. It will be almost impossible to find even a shielded phenolic or machined brass cage bearing to run 24/7 like the original open bearings. As rotten a job as it is, the oil drip system needs to be working to make that machine what is was originally. Newer and lesser shapers with sealed or shielded bearings run much smaller lower load bearings with greater clearance to compensate for their lower precision and stamped steel cages. I don't know if there are ceramic bearings that could run in grease but steel bearing development still hasn't developed to allow for the load and rpm capability of those original to the machine. Makes no sense to have a Martin shaper and turn it into a T130 with greased crap bearings like it uses. I have both and while a T130 is a decent machine, it is no Martin. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

I just looked at your pictures Greg. Looks mostly complete. I wonder if the hold down is Martin? I see the mystery copper coil is loose but with the machine. I would run it for a while just to sort out what it needs. Also looks like it has reverse. Mine does not have that. I had my new shafts made so they could reverse but with 2 other reversing shapers have not had the need.
I ran mine for a couple hours yesterday tenoning with the 320 disks. Ive almost forgot the pain I went through restoring it!
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[GregoryP Lewis]

Dave,
I found the fuses just a few blocks down the street! The oil system should be back together soon.
Greg

[GregoryP Lewis]

That's quite the setup. Cant wait to get my T23 up and running. I just got my door cutter set from Rangate and am excited to use it.
Greg

[GregoryP Lewis]

So, my T23 has some serious issues with the electrical components. As if that wasn't likely with the fuses missing.

To make a long story short it doesn’t work. I contacted a technician listed on the Martin USA site named Don Williamson with WorkHorse Machinery in Yelm, WA. Super nice guy and very knowledgeable. Don has been working on Martins for 15 years and also much bigger industrial equipment from Weinieg (spelling?) and others. I highly recommend calling him if you need help with older Martin equipment.

Don contacted a guy Named Al with Martin USA to see if it was possible to get parts for the T23. Al’s recommendation was to just go with a VFD wired straight to the motor and bypass all of the old components.

I kind of like this idea as I think it would be more reliable in the long run. But there is at least one issue that I am not sure how to deal with and that is the oil pump. What is the power required for that and how would I supply it? On the electrical schematic it looks like it says that it’s 24-30vdc? Is that right? I don’t see any markings on the pump.

By the way, the previous owner says they will refund my money but that leaves me upside down $800 for shipping/ fuses, etc, and they have to get the machine back. I would prefer to keep it if I can get it to work. So I am thinking if I can work out the oil pump issue and they will pay for the VFD then I will keep it.

So, am I missing anything, and how do supply the oil pump?

Greg

[Joe Calhoon]

Greg, these machines are 40 plus years old and anything coming from a coastal area will need all the contacts cleaned. I had to replace all the wires and clean all connections in my box. Bypassing everything might work. The only complex electrical part of these is the 2 speed motor.

the pump is powered by a rectifier and is 24 volts.
You have To realize restoring one of these has a lot of unknowns and a lot of work. I’m happy I did it but a huge amount of time.

[GregoryP Lewis]

Hi Joe,
It needs more than just cleaning and rewiring. At least a transformer and maybe barrel switch/ switches. The parts don’t sound available. The VFD would be easy enough to do. The technician I talked to said to just wire to the 3600 rpm side and let the VFD control motor speed. I would need to figure out the oil pump. Would I just buy a 24vdc power supply and put it on a switch?

[GregoryP Lewis]

I just ordered a 24vdc supply. It will be here in the morning and I’ll try it on the pump.
G

[Patrick Walsh]

Greg,

I’m sorry about your troubles.

Honestly it sounds like this is barely a parts machine.

You had better hope that dam pump works once you get the switch figured.

If the pump is not good I have a solution but it’s not inexpensive. The delivery rate of the oil is very specific and I spent well over a month sourcing a pump the parts to make it all work as designed from the factory. I also had a very helpful willing and savvy engineer friend in my back pocket whom also has it bad for these old machines.

It’s was not fun as I needed the machine to be producing work. Now had I not needed the machine and had the time it could have been fun as I’m pretty committed to saving these old Martin machines. At some point though you have to consider just buying a new one.

Honestly I don’t like the idea of a vfd as at the end of this all the cool stuff about this machine is gonna be lost with a vfd then a switch for the pump. I would think if you dig hard enough you should be able to replace transformers, rectifiers, fuses switches so forth and so on and keep it very much intact as it was from the factory. It will take great electrical knowledge how and a shit ton of digging around online. It can be done though.

I might honestly look for another machine and make sure it’s largely good and make one good machine of the two. A t21 in great shape just sold very close to me. They are out there but you gotta wait and you gotta buy a clean one.

If the pump is shot and you don’t care A gravity syst4m can be employed to deliver the oil pretty easy. Again it’s gonna be getting the flow rate dialed in properly. That should also be easy. What won’t be possible without a electrical pump of some sort is a system that circulates the oil. You will have to just collect it in a container and toss it. Honestly it uses so little oil that would be no big deal. For me though it was to far a departure from a modern machine even for one of these vintage beauties.

[Darcy Warner]

The small picture you posted of the starter and wiring looks original an untouched. Running it all off a vfd would not be my first choice.

Maybe time to learn a little more about control systems and how that one works.

Al at Martin only said that because they literally want nothing to do with anything over 20 years old.

[Joe Calhoon]

I found some good used replacement electronic parts from the panel on EBay. Parts that are not available new.

[Patrick Walsh]

Like when you restored your machine or now.

Man if I found any of that stuff I’d hoard it for a really bad and rainy day.


I found some good used replacement electronic parts from the panel on EBay. Parts that are not available new.

[Bill Dufour]

What is the flow rate for the bearings? If it is low a bijur type pump could be used. How many outputs do you need? Figuring out the correct metering valves may take some time. From what I have found the drippers for irrigation 1/2 gallon/hour is the lowest flow available. I would think oil would flow slower then water through the same orifice.
Bil lD

[David Kumm]

That electrical panel looks worse than it probably is. If it is like my T21, you have either four Klockner Moeller 22DIL starters or two fed by a drum switch. Each speed has its own starter. I try to keep the original electronics but if you go the vfd route, I'd talk to someone who could program the vfd to accept two motor parameters so you could run either speed. Using only the top speed cuts the torque for the most used 4500-6000 range. I'd rather use the low speed at closer to 60-70 hz than the top speed at 30 hz. Dave

[GregoryP Lewis]

I haven't made any progress on the machine as we have decided to move as I am retiring January 1st. I am reluctantly considering selling the Martin. I have about $5700 in the project. The sellers sent me $2500 back for the issues, which lowers my investment to $3200. Anyone want to take over my project for that amount? Shipping was $460 from Michigan to Seattle to give you an idea.

[Patrick Kane]

Greg,

I saw the listing and recognized your machine a few days ago. That sounds like a mess. Sorry a dream tool conquest ended the way it did. Between your machine and Patrick’s I am extremely wary of this machine now. Between the price of a bearing replacement to the controls to the oil pump, you all have scarred me from ever buying this model.

Good news for you, there seems to be a group of guys very dedicated to these shapers.

[Jeff Bartley]

Greg,
Where do you have the machine listed?

[Patrick Kane]

Craigslist

[GregoryP Lewis]

Yes, it is on Seattle Craigslist.
g

[Jim Becker]

Gregory, be sure to put it in the Classifieds here, too.

[Curt Harms]

Yes, it is on Seattle Craigslist.
g

Maybe consider listing on OWWM? vintagemachinery.org.