Sharpening progression, Grits & Strokes?

[Erich Weidner]

I originally had a two grit combo stone I think it was 800/4000 or 1000/4000 grit (waterstones).
This worked but I felt like it took forever to get the polish up to 4000. (This was also before I started using microbevels).

I now have a set of 800/1000/3000/6000/8000/10000 stones. (I couldn't decide on which 3 to make a "set", so I just bought 'em all)
I've discovered I don't need the 800 unless I nick the blade on something.

So my routine of late has been to sharpen starting with the 1000 and working my way up to 10000. I can't really ever seem to feel a burr develop on anything beyond the 1000.

My goal was to be able to work quickly through the grits as my theory being I could do something like 20 strokes on each grit vs. a few hundred strokes trying to go from the 100 to the 4000 (I never counted, but that number sounds about right from my recollection).

How many strokes do you guys typically use to get good results before moving up?

Also, is the reason I'm not feeling a burr develop because I'm in contact with the stone both push/pull strokes?
Should I be just going in one direction? I saw David Charlesworth in a recent post suggest that beginners start with just the pull stroke only. That got me thinking...

(Hmm, just double checked I actually own his plane sharpening video, but have yet to watch it. I'm going to do that now. :) )

[Anuj Prateek]

Regular sharpening:

Usually, few swipes (10-15) on strop freshens up the blade. My strop is veg tan leather glued on 8"x3" MDF with green compound.

If that does not do the trick, I use 12K shapton. Something like 50 back and forth swipes raises the burr. I can feel it with finger tips.

Very rarely I end up using 5k shapton. Usually after I abuse a chisel, and there are fine/micro chips on edge.

In even more rarer cases, I drop to DMT Extra Fine.

I have started regular sharpening by hand. It takes like 2-3 minutes to get chisels sharp.

I am normally able to get a edge that can pass hair shaving or paper cut tests, with okayish marks.

Non-regular sharpening: Read resetting bevel. This is a chore and have not got the process right yet.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Many accomplished and knowledgeable experts, including lots of folks here, have varying sharpening regimens that bring them success. This creates a community with an abundance of valuable advice for those of us who just want to make sure we’re doing it “right.”

I recommend you crack open your Charlesworth DVD and study its steps. While he doesn’t use or teach every method under the sun, his method works, and has the virtue of being highly predictable, with results reproducible every time. What more can one ask?

Once you’ve worn down your first 1000 stone, you’ll have the method down to habit. That’s when the nuances of the diverse experts will make more sense for you. You can decide then what to take in and what to leave out.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm more empirical in sharpening - I feel for a Burr on the back (flat side) of plane irons and chisels.

Once that's detected, go to the next finer step.

If you're unsure, verify the presence of a burr with bright light and a magnifying glass.

(If you can see a bright reflection - it's not sharp.)

I slice paper as a test; it should *whisk* through, without dragging.

[Robert Engel]

You definitely have to have a burr before proceeding to next grit. You may need to experiment feeling with other parts of the body rather than fingertips, such as the inside of your forearm.

Also, if you're having difficulty getting a burr, I would start at a lower grit. Depending on how far past due the edge is, I've gone as low as 300 just to get that edge started. But even for a touch up, I'm usually starting with 800.

I usually go 12-15 strokes once the burr is established. At 8000 I can still feel a burr, but just barely. Past that its impossible for me. Although I occasionally go to 12K, I usually stop at 8K and do a few strops. This system has worked very well for me.

If freehand sharpening, do not hold the tool perpendicular to the stone. I hold the chisel or iron at a skewed angle, I sharpen on both going on the push and pull, with the exception of very narrow chisels. If I'm crowning or easing the edge of a plane iron, only on pull strokes.

With a skewed approach the thing to watch for is making sure the edge stays parallel, especially with narrower chisels.

As Jim mentioned, you might try a jewelers magnification light.

[Tom M King]

I never feel for a burr. When the cutter feels like it's slicing into the surface of the stone, that one is done, and move on to the next one. That's different than sticktion, but the feel is there on oil stones, and water stones that are not extremely hard. There is no such feel on diamond "stones".

The smaller the progression of grits, the fewer the number of strokes on each, but I never count strokes.

[Erich Weidner]

Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

[Andrew Seemann]

I probably will get called a hack for this, but I just do a hollow grind with the Tormek, freehand a small secondary bevel with a 4000 waterstone, and then quickly freehand the edge on the Tormek strop wheel and call it good (this assumes all the normal pre prep work, like back flattening and polishing, has already been done).

Three reasons for this method. First, I hate sharpening, so I want to do it as fast and good as possible. Second, the more grits and steps you have, the more likely you are to round your bevel, which normally ruins your edge. Third, it works plenty good for what I do. I touch up the edges on the 4000 waterstone and strope when they start to get dull. I redo the primary bevel when touching up the edge takes longer than my patience lasts.

[Erich Weidner]

I'm using Vertias (Mk II) honing guides.

[Tom M King]

Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

When I'm in the middle of a long planing session, or if a chisel edge has suffered no damage, my starting grit is 6k most of the time. The coarser grits are just for initial shaping, or correcting damage that doesn't require a grinder. After grinding, I start at the bottom of the progression.

[Robert Engel]

Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

Touching up I start with a 1250 diamond stone. If I'm not getting a burr after 20-30 strokes, I drop back to 800.

I think you'll find general agreement if you do not get a burr, you have not sharpened to the edge.

If you're using a honing guide, the secondary bevel set up is critical. Marking the edge with a sharpie will tell you where you're at.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

I do this with chisels pretty often. The very edge can get slightly ragged (not talking about actual chipping) and 30 seconds on the soft ark then translucent will fix that.

Plane irons wear much more in use and so require more material to be removed to restore the edge geometry. In my case they require the fine india to raise a burr and get past the wear bevel in a reasonable amount of time. So I never really do "touch up" sharpening on plane irons- if they come out of the plane they are going through the whole routine (fine india > soft ark > translucent - which is still only two or three minutes most of the time).

All of this is assuming there is no actual damage to the edge like a visible chip. If that's there then I'm going to something coarser than a fine india. This is very rare now but seemed to happen a lot when I was beginning for some reason. It skewed my perspective on how much work sharpening entailed and led me down some rabbit holes. Once I got past the beginner clumsiness with the tools, sharpening doesn't such a big deal. I sharpen much faster with much "slower" stones.

[Jim Koepke]

My sharpening is almost all done freehand, flat bevel without intentional secondary bevel.

The starting grit depends on the condition of the edge and bevel. Most of the time when a small nick or edge deterioration is noticed it can be restored with a hard Arkansas stone, black Arkansas and stropping.

If there is a large nick or the edge or the bevel has developed convexity or other deformity it will either be treated on a softer or more aggressive Arkansas stone.

If a blade is real bad it will be reground on a Veritas Mk.II power sharpening system (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system). < (that's a link, click it.)

In some case such as a new purchase the blade may be mounted in a sharpening guide and treated to a ride on a four foot piece of abrasive sheet mounted on a hunk of granite.

With water stones, some light wear can be restored with a 4000 stone followed by an 8000 stone and stropping to remove any burr if needed.

Stropping isn't always done after using an 8000 stone.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

Erich I follow Robert's method. I use water stones: Chosera 800 (more recently added to the lineup) - either Shapton or Sigma 1,000 - Sigma 6,000 - Sigma 13,000 grit sizes. For chisel work (esp hard material), I will frequently do a few (10?) quick strokes on the 6,000 and then the 13,000. When I decide that the tool is definitely in need of sharpening, then I start from scratch and feel for a burr. I have recently started dropping back to 800 as a starting point and that one takes the most work (20? 30? strokes?). I don't always feel a burr on the 6,000 stone and don't think I ever feel one on the 13,00 stone, but the tools are getting sharp. For plane irons, I always start from scratch, both on 0-1 or A-2. It helps to have some type of "sharpening station" out and set up for quick use.

[glenn bradley]

Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?


I am usually sharpening to music so I tend to do 8, 12 maybe 16 reps. :D I touch up as fine as will work. I will typically give the edge a backwards swipe on a 1200 or 4000 surface and take a look. We are dealing with scratch patterns here. The finest scratch pattern that will address the current state is what I shoot for. I do not go back to 600 or 1000 to touch up. That just adds deep scratches that I have to eliminate by moving through the grits to get back to honing. I do the full run through if I have to repair something but, for refreshing an edge or a micro-bevel, I do not.

[steven c newman]

I worry more about what each stone is doing, rather than counting strokes...even on a strop....

[Jim Matthews]

Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

Yep.
If I can see a notch in the edge, regrinding on coarse grit is required. Otherwise, straight to the fine stone and strop.

[Brandon Speaks]

I tend to often go right to a strop on my carving tools and sometimes on the chisels though not as often as I should. Its not super frequent I start out below 6k grit though. On just a strop I dont feel any kind of burr though I always think of that as really just polishing, on a stone if there is no burr your not really sharpening has always been my perspective.

On planes I dont sharpen as often so have to start rougher sometimes, 2 k stone is fairly common.

[Warren Mickley]

On a rainy Sunday in May I watched four or five videos of guys making half blind dovetails. All of them started out by saying how essential a sharp chisel was; within the first minute, all abused the chisel so badly that it was no longer sharp. Twisting, scraping, prying and others.

If you beat up the edge like this, work on a fine stone or strop will straighten up the edge and make an improvement. If you have very clean technique, the edge dulls by wear rather than bending and chipping. In this case it is best to go to a coarser stone to get rid of the rounding or worn areas, and then use the finer stones to polish the edge.

[Will Blick]

Great question.... whether a newb or experienced, this thread is useful.

Your question of what grit to start with after you have dulled an edge is one everyone wonders...

IMO, it depends... on how bad the edge is abused. But without an electron microscope, we dont really know. So your premise of starting at 2k and working up, is not a bad one...that is what I do with my plane irons. I actually start at 4k and go to 15k or 30K
However, I think you are way overkill on the strokes... maybe 10 strokes on the first grit to assure straightness, then only 3-4 strokes on the next grits... even long strokes on a FLAT stone, then clean off the burr on the side of the stone, either free hand or use ruler trick. I waste more time flattening my stones than sharpening. I sharpen 2 blades, then re flatten.

[Erich Weidner]

However, I think you are way overkill on the strokes... maybe 10 strokes on the first grit to assure straightness, then only 3-4 strokes on the next grits... even long strokes on a FLAT stone, then clean off the burr on the side of the stone, either free hand or use ruler trick. I waste more time flattening my stones than sharpening. I sharpen 2 blades, then re flatten.

This is an area where I struggle (obsess?). I have the DMT plate for flattening the stones. I quickly scribble across the stone in pencil then flatten. It is super quick. But I might be taking the idea of avoiding out of flat too seriously. I flatten the stone every time I pick it up.

As for number of strokes, the reason I was asking is that I feel like with the progression through five grits, I should be able to move through them quickly. But even with just re sharpening the micro bevel I feel like I need 20-ish strokes before I can (sometimes) feel the burr.

I would love to know I can just touch up a plane blade by say starting at a 3000 or 6000 with a dozen strokes, then a half dozen on the 8000 and 10000 and call it a day. :)
So, the reason I'm asking about number of strokes, isn't because I want to know the formula for "correct" number of strokes, just rather how many one typically takes to get to the burr and proceed. I'm trying to figure out if I am indeed overdoing it. :)

[Jim Matthews]

I'm trying to figure out if I am indeed overdoing it. :)

Better too sharp, than dull.
I prefer to sharpen briefly, often.

More than 3 minutes means I'm not paying attention or the iron is damaged. If it's damage, I check for the cause.

Properly set up and used, shop steel should "wear" but not chip in normal use.

If you want a benchmark, plane endgrain on soft Pine.
Stop and test after each step in the progression, to assess edge quality at that point.

See Bob Rozaieski's excellent article for an image of what you're after in Pine.
https://brfinewoodworking.com/planing-end-grain/

[Robert Hazelwood]

This is an area where I struggle (obsess?). I have the DMT plate for flattening the stones. I quickly scribble across the stone in pencil then flatten. It is super quick. But I might be taking the idea of avoiding out of flat too seriously. I flatten the stone every time I pick it up.

As for number of strokes, the reason I was asking is that I feel like with the progression through five grits, I should be able to move through them quickly. But even with just re sharpening the micro bevel I feel like I need 20-ish strokes before I can (sometimes) feel the burr.

I would love to know I can just touch up a plane blade by say starting at a 3000 or 6000 with a dozen strokes, then a half dozen on the 8000 and 10000 and call it a day. :)
So, the reason I'm asking about number of strokes, isn't because I want to know the formula for "correct" number of strokes, just rather how many one typically takes to get to the burr and proceed. I'm trying to figure out if I am indeed overdoing it. :)

With a plane iron you need to sharpen until a burr is raised, and the wear bevel on the back is gone. Unless the iron has hardly been used (and then why are you sharpening it?) this is more work than a fine stone can do efficiently. So most of the time you'll want to start with something like 800 or 1000 grit (for waterstones). It's easier to remove 1000 grit scratches with a finer stone than it is to remove all of the wear with a fine stone. Chisels and knives are a little different.

With that said 20 strokes to raise a burr doesn't sound too outlandish to me. I sharpen freehand and make short fast back and forth strokes without counting, it takes 10-30 seconds of this to raise a burr. Sometimes a bit longer to get rid of the wear bevel. Converting this into the long slow deliberate strokes you make with a guide is difficult but 20 of those long strokes doesn't seem like way too much or anything.

I would also suggest that 5 stones is too many. Try skipping a couple of them, so that your progression is something like 1000-4000-8000. I think something along those lines is a better compromise between a good polish and not making sharpening a huge PITA.

[Robert Engel]

Erich,

When you get to 8000 it helps to increase the angle just a little, and I mean a little. Easily done with a jig, just advance the iron .5mm or so.

But to answer the stroke question, once a burr is formed, you should be raising another burr within 5-6 strokes.

One thing I had to learn is the amount of pressure is also a factor.

When I'm sharpening, once a burr is achieved, I'm checking for a burr after 10 strokes and its always there. I've checked after even 3-4 strokes and there is often a burr, again, pressure is a factor. I can just barely feel a burr at 8000. I stop at 12K.

I would mention that I sharpen free hand, so I can "micro-adjustments" to increase the angle just a tad to speed up the process a bit ;-). Sometimes I just do a few back strokes this way. You could call it a "tertiary bevel". Regardless, that said, over time this tends to create a convex bevel - not good on chisels, so I'm also hollow grinding as needed.

My stone progression depends on how long I've ignored sharpening. But generally its 800/1250 diamond --> 4000, 8000, 12000 water stones. If the tools just needs a touch up I start with 1250. I've found I can go straight from 1250 to 8000.

Hope this makes sense.

[chris carter]

My sharpening method for plane irons and chisels is insanely simple:

- Regular sharpening is a strop that hangs from a hook on my bench for easy access. It’s something like 4oz veg tan on a piece of plywood with green compound. That accomplishes 99% of all my sharpening. Unless a blade actually gets damage (chip or roll, which is rare) I don’t bother with anything other than the strop. I will re-strop if I feel cut quality go down – this is why it resides at my bench because it only interrupts me for 30 seconds. I have learned that if it is EASY and FAST I will do it often and thus avoid the pains of going to something more severe. I will also re-strop every tool I’ve used for more than a handful of cuts at the end of the day so that I can start fresh next time. I will often count the number of strokes, but that’s because I strop so often I can often intuitively know about how many strokes I will need; but I test on my fingernail and keep going if it needs it.

- For minor damage or if I just somehow let the blade go too far, then I will hit it with my DMT extra fine diamond stone (my only “stone”), then strop it.

- If the damage is too much for the diamond stone, then I use a low grit sand paper. This is very rare, which is why I have not bothered to get a coarser grit diamond stone.

I generally do not use a honing guide (I have the Veritas mkII one) because it takes too long to set up. I don’t like sharpening and prefer it to be as fast of a process as physical possible!

[Will Blick]

I am sure most would agree, there is no perfect answer here.
Much depends on what u are starting with...how bad did u let the edge go before going back to the stones.
Others mentioned they hit the stones more frequently, so they spend less time on it... a good strategy.

I am never tried the strop approach, as I always fear it rounding over the edge, which is what I worked sooo hard to achieve....but with proper strop hardness and the right technique, I am sure its possible. I might give it a try.

I never even check for a burr anymore... I simply do my 5 strokes, turn jig upside down and do about 3-4 strokes to wipe off the burrs, and move to the next stone.

I think what stone u start at, depends on how bad you beat up the edge before returning to the stones.
But one rule I do follow is, I spend the most time on the first stone I start with, to be assured I get the edge flat...then I am simply upgrading, or fine tuning the edge as I jump up in grits. I never had much luck making major jumps in stone grits... I try to stay with 2x grit jump max.

Paying attention to how the blade is cutting is the best indicator on when its time to return to the stones.
and this brings up my other big lesson learned...
the blade type matters...not all blades created equally... some hold an edge way longer than others...with the new PMV-11 being far superior to any other metals I have tried. If you want less time on the stones, move to PMV-11.

I agree with others as well, flatenning is where I spend the most time... as I flatten nearly ever use...then, I must flatten my flattening stones on a granite block and sandpaper, as they do NOT stay flat as their wear pattern is not uniform. Quite the battle...but when done right, the joy of that sharp blade is worth it.

[Erich Weidner]

So, I've re-read this thread several times. Seems like lots of folks start at 6000 grit+ when refreshing an edge. My question is how do you know when you need to do that?

Recently my #8 Jointer hit a point where it was clearly not cutting well. Chattering/difficult to push. I ran it through the whole stone progression, now it is great again. But I can't say that I really noticed the degradation in cutting quality in time to refresh the edge from middle grit stones.

What are you experiencing that lights the bulb that you need to refresh the edge? I clearly missed it until it was very bluntly obvious that I needed to resharpen.

[David Bassett]

... My question is how do you know when you need to do that [refresh an edge]? ...

I think the short answer is experience.

In practice it can be a number of things. Recognizing a subtle change in the way the plane moves. Changes in the shaving. Changes in the planed surface. I suppose the sound of taking a shaving. And probably many other things.

[ken hatch]

So, I've re-read this thread several times. Seems like lots of folks start at 6000 grit+ when refreshing an edge. My question is how do you know when you need to do that?

Recently my #8 Jointer hit a point where it was clearly not cutting well. Chattering/difficult to push. I ran it through the whole stone progression, now it is great again. But I can't say that I really noticed the degradation in cutting quality in time to refresh the edge from middle grit stones.

What are you experiencing that lights the bulb that you need to refresh the edge? I clearly missed it until it was very bluntly obvious that I needed to resharpen.


With a plane iron you need to sharpen until a burr is raised, and the wear bevel on the back is gone. Unless the iron has hardly been used (and then why are you sharpening it?) this is more work than a fine stone can do efficiently. So most of the time you'll want to start with something like 800 or 1000 grit (for waterstones). It's easier to remove 1000 grit scratches with a finer stone than it is to remove all of the wear with a fine stone. Chisels and knives are a little different.

With that said 20 strokes to raise a burr doesn't sound too outlandish to me. I sharpen freehand and make short fast back and forth strokes without counting, it takes 10-30 seconds of this to raise a burr. Sometimes a bit longer to get rid of the wear bevel. Converting this into the long slow deliberate strokes you make with a guide is difficult but 20 of those long strokes doesn't seem like way too much or anything.

I would also suggest that 5 stones is too many. Try skipping a couple of them, so that your progression is something like 1000-4000-8000. I think something along those lines is a better compromise between a good polish and not making sharpening a huge PITA.

Erich,

If you ask yourself the question: "Do I need to re-sharpen?" you have the answer. Robert Hazelwood had very good advise. Especially with plane cutters sharpening is a three step process of grinding to clean the bevel and get rid of the "wear", honing to smooth the scratches made when grinding, and polishing to farther refine the scratches and smooth the cutting edge. Three stones and a strop or even two stones and a strop can take care of that process. I use mostly natural stones so grits do not come out to play but for grinding I will normally use an India stone, honing a Washita, and polishing a Surgical Arkansas. If I had to assign grits my guess would be somewhere around a 800 to 1000, 2000 to 4000, and maybe 4000 to 6000.

The stone will tell you when it is time to go to the next stone, listen and don't count strokes.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

So, I've re-read this thread several times. Seems like lots of folks start at 6000 grit+ when refreshing an edge. My question is how do you know when you need to do that?

Recently my #8 Jointer hit a point where it was clearly not cutting well. Chattering/difficult to push. I ran it through the whole stone progression, now it is great again. But I can't say that I really noticed the degradation in cutting quality in time to refresh the edge from middle grit stones.

What are you experiencing that lights the bulb that you need to refresh the edge? I clearly missed it until it was very bluntly obvious that I needed to resharpen.

This depends on many variables.

First would be what use is the edge being used to perform. With a paring chisel when the time to refresh the edge would be evident when it starts pushing the end grain instead of shaving end grain. With some woods you will see lines in place where the edge is compromised:

438135

On the right are light lines from wear to the edge of the chisel. The lies are curved due to the chisel being used in a sweeping motion.

On the left is an area pared after the edge was restored with a few strokes on a translucent Arkansas stone and some stropping. The edge was not in need of extensive sharpening, just a light honing.

With plane blades the wear characteristics of the metal come into play. Some blades tend to develop fine chips:

438139

When shavings start to look like ribbons it is time to sharpen.

Some blades will wear to a smoother profile without chipping. This may give feedback like being a little harder to push, is the plane's sole needing more wax?

For setting up a plane after sharpening a blade my usual procedure is to back the blade off and then adjust it until it just starts to take a shaving. This helps to set the lateral adjustment. It also indicates the fineness of the shaving the blade can make:

438147

Some of my blades can be pretty dull and still take a shaving. As mentioned by David, the shaving may look different. It might have a bubbling - buckling look or a glassy appearance.

The surface being worked may look different.

Making a shaving may even sound different.

In my experience though, a dulled blade can not take a shaving as thin as one well honed fresh from the stones.

My water stone sharpening set up was usually a 1000 or 2000 grit to start if the blade was chipped or very dull. If it was light wear honing might start with a 4000 grit.

With Arkansas stones if it is light chipping it might start on a soft Arkansas. Heavy chipping would bring it down to a softer stone like a Washita. If there wasn't chipping, just light wear it might start at a hard Arkansas or even a translucent Arkansas. Though my translucent stone is rather small for larger blades. The hard Arkansas tends to be the starting place for those.

After working with your blades for a while, you will develop a feel for where they need to start to get them to their optimum edge to get back to work.

jtk