Question Regarding Honing To The Very High Grit Stones

[Mark R Webster]

I have always sharpened using Shapton pros 1000, 5000 and 8000. I was wondering if anyone can tell me where and how they notice a difference when going up to the 12K or 13K Shaptons or Sigmas. Is it longevity of the edge, ability to "catch" the shaving, (hard to describe what I mean here but you can feel when an edge is very sharp, almost like it wants to engage the wood). How do you perceive any difference when going to the high grits. Just trying to educate myself here.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Oh boy, here we go.
I use DMT plates, so my experience may not be the same as yours.
Lately, because my space is limited, I’ve started to simplify my sharpening process. I brought the “extra fine” and “extra extra fine” to my bench, with the honing fluid (H2O with a few drop of laundry detergent in a spray bottle) and sharpen often. I’m working with oak for this project.
Is it as sharp as a leather strop and honing compound? Probably not, but I’m trying to finish a project, not get that particular plane to the “nth” degree of sharpness. It helps as much when I lube the sole of the plane.
Because I’m sharpening often and lubing my process seems to be better. Only MY experience.

[Jim Koepke]

Mark, this question has also caught my interest. My finest stone is an 8000 Norton water stone. According to some grit charts your Shapton 8000 should a bit finer than the Norton.

At one time a finer stone was a temptation in my quest for the ever sharper blade. Most recently to see if there was any reason to go a little further in this quest a few of 0.5µ abrasive sheets were purchased from Lee Valley > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/sheets-and-belts/33004-3m-micro-abrasives-for-sharpening

So far they are still waiting on the shelf.

My sharpening has gone from mostly water stones to mostly oilstones. Water stones may give a slightly better edge. It is too close to make much diifference in my woodworking.

jtk

[Bob Jones 5443]

Do you suppose it's like sharpening a pencil? Very sharp is good for the task of drawing the fine line. Very, very, very sharp and the pencil point breaks easily. Just musing on whether that analogy might hold some weight.

For the record I go to the Norton 8000 and leave it there. For me, frequently going back to the stones does the trick.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks guys, Aaron, I have not gotten into the diamond stones, but I appreciated your response. Jim and Bob... I am pretty much in the same camp. For me, the 8000 gives an edge that seems to do the job and I have a hard time imagining how one would perceive a functional difference by going to the higher grits. I am pretty open to new ideas especially if they seem logical and are discernible . I guess I am hoping those who swear by the higher grits can give me some way to appreciate and share in their excitement for an improved edge. I would like to think there is a way to detect a difference. If it is under a microscope analyzing scratch patterns, I get that in theory.. it is a "sharper" edge, but if there is no way to measure the functional value then I guess I will just keep doing what I am doing. I am not unhappy with my edges but you know how it goes, we are always checking out the newest thing... and hey... you don't know what you don't know right? :) You high grit users please don't take this as a challenge to your methods... I truly want to learn.

[bill epstein]

Seems to me there are many for whom sharpening is the hobby.

[Mark R Webster]

I know what you mean :) I still like to hear peoples thoughts :)

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Always sharpened with Norton waterstones: 220, 1000, 4000, 8000. Hated the mess and the time spent flattening them. When the 220 wore down I bought a DMT extra extra course to replace it. When/if my other grits wear down I’ll replace them with the equivalent diamond stone. I do final passes on a horse butt leather strop with green compound. I don’t need anything sharper. If an edge is really trashed, I do hollow grind it on a grinder.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks for the response Stephen!

[Andrew Seemann]

I hone with a 4000 waterstone (King brand maybe?) and then hit the edge on the stroping wheel on the Tormek with that abrasive "toothpaste" they make for it. I haven't found a reason to go finer.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I suspect one could see a difference on the iron between 8000 and 16000 grit with just a 10X thread counter, not even a microscope, but my unsupported guess is that the fine sliver edge from the 16000 would bend over after a few shavings.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Andrew and Bob for responses!

[Derek Cohen]

I have always sharpened using Shapton pros 1000, 5000 and 8000. I was wondering if anyone can tell me where and how they notice a difference when going up to the 12K or 13K Shaptons or Sigmas. Is it longevity of the edge, ability to "catch" the shaving, (hard to describe what I mean here but you can feel when an edge is very sharp, almost like it wants to engage the wood). How do you perceive any difference when going to the high grits. Just trying to educate myself here.

Mark, the short answer is that a higher grit does help the edge last longer. The last lost of real world testing was done by David Weaver several months ago. Brent Beach also did a lot of this type of testing, as did I. David was also clear that PM-V11 steel takes and holds the better edge when looking at O1 and A2 steels.

I would disagree with the notion that a finer edge is weaker. Quite the opposite - there are fewer serrations to lead to chipping.

Now there are some other factors to consider.

It also depends on the wood you work. Hard and abrasive woods will wear edges faster. Interlocked wood is the most vulnerable to tearout. Fine finish shavings, which are rather dependent on a well-sharpened edge, will be difficult if the edge goes quicker than expected. There is an infamous video by Paul Sellers, where he sharpens to 250 grit and then planes pine. It will work, but even Paul admitted that it was more effort.

I end with a Sigma 13000. I used to use a Shapton Pro 12000 (which, incidentally, is the same stone as their 15000), having moved to this after a 8000 (this was about 10 years ago). There is a distinct difference and improvement with the higher grit.

I am still inclined to use green compound (on hardwood), not so much for a higher grit still, but to ensure that any wire has been removed (I only take a couple of strokes).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

I normally stop at 8k. However I bought a 16k ceramic stone just to see.

I can’t tell any difference in the planing I’ve done between 16k and 8k plus some stropping.

[Jim Matthews]

Unmentioned above is the surface finish left by progressively finer grits. The shimmering quality of premium Alaskan cedar off a properly fettled Japanese plane is remarkable.

* There is a downside *

In practice, getting a blade to this degree of polish is unforgiving, messy and expensive.

My finest waterstone is nominally 12000 grit.

To prepare an iron for this takes nearly $300 in materials, 20 minutes per blade and three years of practice.

******

Recent exposure to the modern sintered stainless steel from Carpenter (XHP) has shown a very close appearance on even highly figured lumber, using commonly available Arkansas oilstones.

From dull to terrible sharp in about 3 minutes.

Cost of stones, under $30.

Nearly ten times faster for one tenth the cost.

That's progress.

[Tom M King]

Yes, there is a difference, both in ease of use, and longevity of the edge. This from decades of experience, and not guessed theory. The first of those decades the super sharp edge was from the difference between a Translucent after the Hard, and later the 13k beyond the 8k.

It's little effort for me though, these days. All the waterstones are in a rack on the sharpening sink, so the extra effort requires replacing the last stone with the next in the holder, and a few extra strokes, so 15 to 20 seconds max extra effort.

If I'm in the middle of a long planing session, the edge gets sharpened first thing in the morning, and after lunch, starting at 6k. The majority of the square footage planed on my jobs is either Cypress, or Heart Pine, and almost all cutters are 01. A lot of hours of work is done by hand pushing a chisel too.

[Mark R Webster]

More good info! Thanks Tom and Jim:)

[Frank Martin]

I have been pondering this question too. My current sharpening setup is hollow grinding (180 grit CBN) followed by 1200 grit Atoma diamond, medium Spyderco ceramic, ultra fine Spyderco ceramic (I am guessing around 6,000-8,000 grit) ending with green compound on a planed maple board. I like that Spyderco does not need flattening beyond the initial prep. I use them by spraying water with some dish detergent in it. I would like to stay with ceramic stone for the high grit stone.

I don’t think Spyderco makes anything finer. Is Shapton Pro (16,000 grit) the only other ceramic stone at this grit that is commonly available? Are there other options?

[Jim Koepke]

Here is something from Mr. Wizard that may clear this up some or it may just make it more confusing:

435453

It appears there is a Chosera stone that is about the same as the Shapton 10K stone.

jtk

[Mark R Webster]

Well that is pretty cool!!!! Thanks Jim

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I purchased a Shapton 16K glass stone from someone on the forum. I don't strop much, and if I did, this might make less of a difference, but, it seems to make a difference in sharpness from my 5K shapton pro. I probably do not need to do this with all of my blades, but, when I need a whisper thin shaving, tricky grain, end grain, etc, then I am glad I have it.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks for the post Andrew!

[Brandon Speaks]

Does it make a difference? Yes it does to some degree, does that difference matter? That is harder to answer, depends on the tool and intended purpose. My final step is a strop with white gold compound on it, I suppose in theory whatever progression of stones to get to that level only matters in how long I have to spend on the final strop.

The extra step of adding another finer stone would be very little additional marginal effort though what those stones cost has dissuaded me, one of these days I will likely buy one though.

[James Pallas]

I wonder if it makes any difference in comparing a fine stone to stropping. I can go to a 13000 water stone but I can’t tell the difference between arks to strop and the water stone for most things. I do use the stone for small (miniature) carving tools. The harder surface seems to help with control. After years of stropping I’m more familiar with that routine too.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I wonder if it makes any difference in comparing a fine stone to stropping. I can go to a 13000 water stone but I can’t tell the difference between arks to strop and the water stone for most things. I do use the stone for small (miniature) carving tools. The harder surface seems to help with control. After years of stropping I’m more familiar with that routine too.

I anticipate that it does not matter for the most part, but....

Shapton claims the 16000 stone is 092 micron. I think that the Sigma Power Select II 13000 is listed at 1 micron (so essentially the same)

I am partial to the Formax Micro Fine Honing Compound. You can get it at Woodcraft and it is listed as 0.5 micron. The same is true for the Lee Valley honing compound.

Is there a difference between using a strop vs a stone? For starters, on what did you spread your compound? My Shapton stones are pretty hard. My strops are generally leather, so they give with pressure. For certain, it is easier to NOT round the edge on a fine stone.

I have heard that a strop removes less material. Do not know if that is just because it is so fine. If you are stropping without compound, that is something different (mostly).

I can say for certain that a strop with compound is a lot cheaper than a Shapton 30,000 stone and way more people use them.

[James Pallas]

I anticipate that it does not matter for the most part, but....

Shapton claims the 16000 stone is 092 micron. I think that the Sigma Power Select II 13000 is listed at 1 micron (so essentially the same)

I am partial to the Formax Micro Fine Honing Compound. You can get it at Woodcraft and it is listed as 0.5 micron. The same is true for the Lee Valley honing compound.

Is there a difference between using a strop vs a stone? For starters, on what did you spread your compound? My Shapton stones are pretty hard. My strops are generally leather, so they give with pressure. For certain, it is easier to NOT round the edge on a fine stone.

I have heard that a strop removes less material. Do not know if that is just because it is so fine. If you are stropping without compound, that is something different (mostly).

I can say for certain that a strop with compound is a lot cheaper than a Shapton 30,000 stone and way more people use them.

I use both leather and hardwood with gold or green compounds. There is a little technique to leather for me. Lighter and lighter strokes, same number on each side counting down to one light stroke on each side. I could guess but don’t know that a strop could possibly introduce some waviness to the edge. If it does I can’t tell in use.