remind me again - HVLP (pressurized) sprayable door and trim material

[Rob Young]

Remind me again on the list of HVLP sprayable (pressurized cup) interior door and trim materials.

SW's ProCalssic interior acrylic latex
BM/Lenmar Ultralaq and Duralaq (although the Duralaq is nitrocellulouse, right?)
Target ???
General Finishes Enduro pigmented (white) poly?
GF "milk" paint + topcoat?


My preferred primer is Zinser BIN (the real shellac based version, not the new synthetic shellac one).

4-stage HVLP turbine and I have both cup under and top feed pressurized guns and wide range of N/N sizes to choose from. I've not had any issues spraying enamel-latex paints in the past.

This seems like a list we should edit up and make a sticky topic.

[Bruce Lowekamp]

Target is EM6500. Docs say can be applied over BIN if it's thinned 50%. BIN is my preferred primer as well, but I am hesitant to put it into a gun since I usually only use disposable brushes etc with it.

Bruce

[John TenEyck]

Duralaq WB is waterborne and sprays great. It comes in clear and white, but can be tinted to any of BM's colors.

Duralaq Undercoater is their waterborne primer and the viscosity is just as low as BIN shellac based primer, sprays great and clean up is a breeze.

John

[Rob Young]

Duralaq WB is waterborne and sprays great. It comes in clear and white, but can be tinted to any of BM's colors.

Duralaq Undercoater is their waterborne primer and the viscosity is just as low as BIN shellac based primer, sprays great and clean up is a breeze.

John
Curious to know if you've tried Duralaq WB over Zinser (shellac) BIN? I really like the non-grain raising aspect of the BIN vs. other stuff I've tried. Have not tried the Duralaq Undercoater though.

[Jim Becker]

The GF Milk Paint (which is not "milk paint'; rather, it's an acrylic) doesn't need to be top-coated unless you don't like the satin sheen. But Target's EM6500 is also satin.

[Dan Jansen]

I’m getting ready to spray Rustoleum Ultra Coverage. It is waterbased and says you don’t have to prime. It has limited colors but in my first test it dried harder than the Dutch Boy cabinet paint I brushed on. I watched a clip on YouTube from a guy who recommended it. He seemed to know what he was talking about and it wasn’t the usual, “this is my first time painting” video.

[John TenEyck]

Curious to know if you've tried Duralaq WB over Zinser (shellac) BIN? I really like the non-grain raising aspect of the BIN vs. other stuff I've tried. Have not tried the Duralaq Undercoater though.

I honestly can't remember if I've used Duralaq WB over BIN shellac based primer. I do know that the Duralaq Undercoater is a great product and did not raise the grain much on my soft maple frame doors. I use it for most of my priming needs now under WB paints because it's cheap, cheaper than BIN, works great, and cleans up with soap and water. For new wood with no knots I really like Undercoater.

John

[Rob Young]

Duralaq WB is waterborne and sprays great. It comes in clear and white, but can be tinted to any of BM's colors.

Duralaq Undercoater is their waterborne primer and the viscosity is just as low as BIN shellac based primer, sprays great and clean up is a breeze.

John

Ordered a gallon of the WB Duralaq tinted in the color I was told to use...
And a gallon of the undercoater. You were right, the undercoater is much cheaper than the BIN.

All should be in middle of next week, they aren't stocked at my BenMoore dealer.

Plan is to spray two more doors with the undercoater week from tomorrow and all three with the acrylic after that. I'll take notes.

[John TenEyck]

I think you're really going to like how well they spray. I had the Duralaq White tinted to match the color of SW's ProClassic White for some kitchen cabinets and passage doors I recently made because it's so much easier to spray. The color match was spot on.

Look forward to your updates.

John

[Jim Becker]

I think you're really going to like how well they spray. I had the Duralaq White tinted to match the color of SW's ProClassic White for some kitchen cabinets and passage doors I recently made because it's so much easier to spray. The color match was spot on.

Look forward to your updates.

John

That's good to know...ProClassic is my standard for trim in the house and while I 'can' spray it, having something more friendly with spraying is a nice thing. What about the sheen? ProClassic satin is more matte than many other satins, in my experience.

[John TenEyck]

That's good to know...ProClassic is my standard for trim in the house and while I 'can' spray it, having something more friendly with spraying is a nice thing. What about the sheen? ProClassic satin is more matte than many other satins, in my experience.

I used ProClassic satin for the baseboard and door trim and Duralaq satin for the cabinets and doors. The Duralaq might be a hair higher sheen, but they are really close. If I were even more anal than I already am, however, I could have added some of Hood Finishing's WB flattening agent to cut the sheen. That stuff is another bargain. Something like $30 for a gallon, including shipping. A gallon is going to last me forever.

If you want the ProClassic formula BM used to tint the Duralaq I think I have it. If so, I'm happy to post it. They created it from a color sample I made up; not something they looked up.

John

[Jim Becker]

That absolutely would be handy to have, John. Like I said, I don't mind spraying ProClassic if I need to, but it's not the best product for that kind of application.

[John TenEyck]

That absolutely would be handy to have, John. Like I said, I don't mind spraying ProClassic if I need to, but it's not the best product for that kind of application.

OK, here's what it says on the sticker they put on the top of the can.

GY-3
LE1WB.204 Satin

John

[Wakahisa Shinta]

John, what do you use to clean your gun after spraying Lenmar Duralaq? I read the TDS, but want to hear your real-time method.

I have been spraying BM Advance with a Fuji Q5 and T75G gun, but dislike the cure time required for BM Advance. I have a non-kitchen cabinet project coming up and want to try another product. Duralaq sounds like a nice one to try.

Thanks!

[Rob Young]

John, what do you use to clean your gun after spraying Lenmar Duralaq? I read the TDS, but want to hear your real-time method.

I have been spraying BM Advance with a Fuji Q5 and T75G gun, but dislike the cure time required for BM Advance. I have a non-kitchen cabinet project coming up and want to try another product. Duralaq sounds like a nice one to try.

Thanks!

Not John, but for me to clean immediately after WB acrylics and latex (and blends) I use household ammonia. About 1/2 of the gun cup is ammonia, the rest water. Spray it through. Repeat if necessary but with less ammonia. Then a cup of water. Disassemble the gun, wipe down stuff and if necessary I'll soak the N/N set in a coffee cup with more ammonia for an hour or so and then scrub. So far, so good. Outside of gun is getting a bit ratty looking because I'm not really cleaning that well. Just the inside.

At some point I should strip it down 100% and dump everything into a can full of "gun cleaner" solvent for an overnight soak. Then replace the glans and reassemble.

[John TenEyck]

John, what do you use to clean your gun after spraying Lenmar Duralaq? I read the TDS, but want to hear your real-time method.

I have been spraying BM Advance with a Fuji Q5 and T75G gun, but dislike the cure time required for BM Advance. I have a non-kitchen cabinet project coming up and want to try another product. Duralaq sounds like a nice one to try.

Thanks!

Lenmar Duralaq WB is a waterborne product. I clean up with soap and water.

They make a solvent version, too, called Duralaq, but I don't use it.

John

[Jim Becker]

Just hot water for me...

[Rob Young]

Ordered a gallon of the WB Duralaq tinted in the color I was told to use...
And a gallon of the undercoater. You were right, the undercoater is much cheaper than the BIN.

All should be in middle of next week, they aren't stocked at my BenMoore dealer.

Plan is to spray two more doors with the undercoater week from tomorrow and all three with the acrylic after that. I'll take notes.

Whelp, no testing for me this weekend. As the BenMoore dealer in my town doesn't stock the Duralaq line, it had to be ordered in. The good news is that I caught them on the morning they were preparing the order and I could get a gallon of the white poly to tint along with the Duralaq undercoater (primer). Great.

Called to see if my order was in and they were unpacking the pallet Thursday afternoon and the manifest said it was there (along with all the other stuff they ordered). Fantastic.

Problem is, while the manifest was the right one for their order, the pallet was not! The pallet shipped to Lawrence, KS belonged to a store in Branson, MO. And vice versa.

Won't get resolved until Monday at the earliest.

Rats.

[Jim Becker]

Well, I guess you'll have to start building that next project over the weekend since you can't do the finishing. :) :D

[Rob Young]

Whelp, no testing for me this weekend. As the BenMoore dealer in my town doesn't stock the Duralaq line, it had to be ordered in. The good news is that I caught them on the morning they were preparing the order and I could get a gallon of the white poly to tint along with the Duralaq undercoater (primer). Great.

Called to see if my order was in and they were unpacking the pallet Thursday afternoon and the manifest said it was there (along with all the other stuff they ordered). Fantastic.

Problem is, while the manifest was the right one for their order, the pallet was not! The pallet shipped to Lawrence, KS belonged to a store in Branson, MO. And vice versa.

Won't get resolved until Monday at the earliest.

Rats.

And still no product delivered to my BM dealer. Well, not quite, they did get the undercoater but the white poly is still not arrived. Two weeks now and I'm really, really not impressed by this dealer's customer service. I have to call them to find out if it has arrived. The undercoater came in mid-week but they never called me.

Obviously nobody in this area is using Duralaq products otherwise they would be stocked closer in.

[John TenEyck]

Well that's disappointing. My local BM dealer stocks the clear and white Duralaq WB in most sheens, and Undercoater. When they don't have it it's never more than a 2 day wait. I'll count myself lucky.

John

[Rob Young]

Well that's disappointing. My local BM dealer stocks the clear and white Duralaq WB in most sheens, and Undercoater. When they don't have it it's never more than a 2 day wait. I'll count myself lucky.

John

Bit of a dead zone for lots of finishing stuff that isn't BORG grade around here. Kansas City (KS and MO) are the closest "big" cities but even they aren't that large.

And while I can get some of the GF products around here if I'm willing to drive between 30 minutes to an hour there is no dealer for their pro-lines. Closest for that is in St. Louis. None of the local ones that carry the usual suspects can tint material. So I'd have to convince the local SW or BM to give it a go and last ask on that was a hard no since it isn't one of their lines. I think they were worried about matching and my later coming back to complain.

Target Coatings pretty much the same story. Would have to 100% mail order.

[John TenEyck]

No one carries the pro line of GF products near me either, except for EnduroVar at my fairly local Rockler. I've never found that a problem, though, except in the Winter months when things can freeze. I've ordered many of GF's products from Homestead Finishing, Woodworker's Hardware, and others. Now I have a pro pricing deal through a friend which has gone a long way towards tying my loyalty to GF. But I still buy Duralaq WB at my local BM because it's cheaper and sprays great. The white Duralaq WB, in particular, sprays infinitely easier than Enduro White Poly.

What originally attracted me to Duralaq WB was that BM will tint it to any of their colors. TC will tint their products, too, but BM is local to me and I can get product any time of year w/o worry. It was only after I tried it that I found out how easy it sprays. The cost savings was actually secondary, but much appreciated.

John

[Rob Young]

And still no product delivered to my BM dealer. Well, not quite, they did get the undercoater but the white poly is still not arrived. Two weeks now and I'm really, really not impressed by this dealer's customer service. I have to call them to find out if it has arrived. The undercoater came in mid-week but they never called me.

Obviously nobody in this area is using Duralaq products otherwise they would be stocked closer in.

Finally got a call yesterday morning that the Duralaq tintable poly had arrived at the dealer. Picked it up at noon.

They got me the undercoat but unfortunately the weather here has not been cooperating with my schedule. Because I spray outdoors, I am more concerned with temperature, humidity and wind. Every day that I was able to make time, the weather was not compatible. The forecast for this weekend through Tuesday, I think, looks much better and I can finally get going on my testing of these products!

[Rob Young]

I am impressed by the Duralaq undercoater John!

Decent coverage, still did two coats on bare poplar and MDF. And minimal grain raise, comparable to what the shellac BIN does.

Undercoater can seems be be a big bunch of titanium dioxide with just enough binder. Powders up great.

I had two glue stains on the MDF panels and those show through. So I'll spot prime with BIN there. Otherwise looks good.

20 seconds in my #4 cup so tried 1.3mm N/N on my Acufine 4 stage. Might even be able to go 1.0mm...

[John TenEyck]

I am impressed by the Duralaq undercoater John!

Decent coverage, still did two coats on bare poplar and MDF. And minimal grain raise, comparable to what the shellac BIN does.

Undercoater can seems be be a big bunch of titanium dioxide with just enough binder. Powders up great.

I had two glue stains on the MDF panels and those show through. So I'll spot prime with BIN there. Otherwise looks good.

20 seconds in my #4 cup so tried 1.3mm N/N on my Acufine 4 stage. Might even be able to go 1.0mm...


It is amazing how the viscosity can be so low for something with so much filler in it. Good chemistry at work. And the price is a true bargain. I haven't checked the SDS in quite some time, but I suspect it's mostly calcium carbonate with just a little TiO2 in order to make it that cheap. Regardless, it works great.

You are right about it not coating very well over glue stains. I found if you scuff sand the glue area then it coats much better.

Glad you were pleased with how it worked for you.

John

[Rob Young]

John -

Something that came to mind after the significant other was looking at the result of the spraying of the doors.

She would like (and I agree) that the kitchen needs updating. But the Duralaq Acrylic isn't particularly chemical resistant. The MegaVar stuff should be more so being a polyurethane. The acrylic should be fine for doors and trim but not so much cabinets that get wiped down?


So I started browsing the various TDS docs and really I'm not seeing anything about MegaVar over the WB acrylic products. Thoughs?

And of course, probably better off using something a bit more tough but given the cost of the Duralaq white acrylic, man, it makes the numbers work better than things that cost $80/gal when laying out those 2 or 3 color coats...

[Jim Becker]

Rob, different manufacturers handle the durability thing in various ways. One option is that you can get your color on with the acrylic and they use a more chemically resistant clear over it...but you need to consult with the manufacturer of the color product to understand what's compatible. Fortunately, compatibility is a little easier, IMHO, with waterborne products.

I happen to use Target Coatings finishes (although I'm interested in trying the Duralaq) and they offer a crosslinker additive that increases chemical resistance over the already decent capability of the base products. I took advantage of that for my kitchen uppers when I replaced them two years ago. The color coats went on and then a couple coats of clear with the crosslinker finished the job. I could have put the crosslinker in the color coats, too, but since I intended to clear coat with the conversion varnish with crosslinker, I didn't feel the need.

[John TenEyck]

Rob, your concerns are valid with Duralaq WB with regards to chemical resistance. Ammonia cleaners don't play nice with it. I was in the same quandary with my kitchen cabinets a year ago. After some testing I found that Enduro Clear Poly bonds securely to the custom mixed Duralaq WB I wanted to use for the base cabinets. And that's what I used. Two coats of Duralaq WB directly on the raw wood because I wanted the grain to show through followed by one coat of Enduro Clear Poly. A year later they look perfect and are easy to keep clean with a wipe of soapy water followed by a dry towel. Enduro Clear Poly isn't the cheapest thing if you have to pay retail but I'm lucky to be able to buy it by the 5 gal pail at pro prices.

One area of my kitchen is used as a computer area. I painted that run of cabinets with Duralaq WB white only because they won't be subjected to spills and splashes. Two coats of Undercoater, sanded, followed by two coats of Duralaq WB white.

MegaVar or another product with KCMA rating would be the safest bet, but I'm happy with the approach I took.

John

[Rob Young]

Rob, your concerns are valid with Duralaq WB with regards to chemical resistance. Ammonia cleaners don't play nice with it. I was in the same quandary with my kitchen cabinets a year ago. After some testing I found that Enduro Clear Poly bonds securely to the custom mixed Duralaq WB I wanted to use for the base cabinets. And that's what I used. Two coats of Duralaq WB directly on the raw wood because I wanted the grain to show through followed by one coat of Enduro Clear Poly. A year later they look perfect and are easy to keep clean with a wipe of soapy water followed by a dry towel. Enduro Clear Poly isn't the cheapest thing if you have to pay retail but I'm lucky to be able to buy it by the 5 gal pail at pro prices.

One area of my kitchen is used as a computer area. I painted that run of cabinets with Duralaq WB white only because they won't be subjected to spills and splashes. Two coats of Undercoater, sanded, followed by two coats of Duralaq WB white.

MegaVar or another product with KCMA rating would be the safest bet, but I'm happy with the approach I took.

John

Got a reply from Lenmar and here it is:

The MegaVar WB has shown to have some compatibility issues when applied over the Duralac Waterborne due to the differences in the hardness of the two resins. As such, we would not recommend applying the MegaVar over the Duralac. MegaVar will have much better chemical resistance, but would have to be applied from the wood up as a system on its own.

My followup question to them was to ask if the WB MegaVar (clear, they don't have a "white" version) can be tinted to a solid color.

Kind of impressed that they responded reasonably quickly.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, MegaVar can be tinted to a solid color, just as the Duralaq WB clear can be. At least that's what the BM guy told me when I asked and he's never been wrong yet. However, it likely won't have the same opacity that the white has, so the color on your wood might not be identical to what it looks like on a piece of white paper. I had to have them make several adjustments until I got the color I wanted on wood.

John

[Rob Young]

Unfortunately I got a different answer from corporate on the tinting of MegaVar WB :

Unfortunately, we have found that we cannot safely tint the MegaVar WB without there being film forming issues. For whites and colors, the Duralac WB would be the only water-based option.

Again, I was asking to remain within their WB products, have KCMA type toughness AND tint to a solid color. Can't quite get all three at the same time. And I'm sure they are leaning on the side of caution because they don't want to deal with customer issues caused by over-manipulating the formulas of MegaVar WB and Duralaq WB.

My kitchen updating work is probably still close to a year out so I've got plenty of time to prep samples. Since I'm spraying doors and trim now with the Duralaq WB tinted poly I'll make up some samples. Then I can test for myself. We always say to do this, so I'm doing this.

We don't typically clean the existing cabinets with anything except dish soap and water. So mostly I'm concerned with the abuse caused by the spatter and heat of cooking mixed with a little dirt and oil from handling. I'll prep a few samples, keep one in a box away from the abuse and lean the others up against the backsplash and beside the cooktop and just let them age.

[John TenEyck]

That's an excellent plan Rob.

John