Sharpening... argh!

[Dave Mills]

Up til now I've sharpened by hand, quite poorly. So I bought this jig from Lie-Nielsen, and went at it with a couple plane blades. The first was my LN 102 block plane, for which it worked perfectly. Cut in a 25 degree primary bevel, a 28 deg secondary, and it seemed perfect. But this blade, from a #62, is giving me fits. You can see the original primary bevel, straight across the blade. When I set the jig up the same way, to cut the 25 deg bevel, it's cutting at an angle. I've triple checked and reset the blade in the jig many times, turned the jig around the other way, and this same bevel keeps happening. It is also un-squaring the end of the blade, the more metal I take off.

Any thoughts on what may be going on?

434976

[William Fretwell]

Dave, clearly it’s not square in the jig, or the blade was not square to start. Remove the blade, with a small accurate square referenced to the side of the blade draw lines with an indelible marker across the edge being sharpened. This will give a you an accurate idea what is going on. If the blade can not be squared in the guide you need to take some measurements and call Lie Nielsen. They have good customer service!

[Dave Mills]

Thanks William, I will do that. I also thought I should try another plane blade, just to get one more example.

[Steve Mathews]

I just purchased the same jig. Are you using a different stone for the secondary bevel? Have you measured the width of the blade to determine if the sides are perfectly parallel? Don't be too discouraged. I'm having my share of sharpening woes myself.

[James Pallas]

I’m looking at the wheel of the guide. It appears to have more shine on the side in line with the deeper bevel. Are you pushing harder on that side? It is very important to keep equal pressure across the guide. It is very easy to get the results you are showing with unequal pressure.

[Steve Mathews]

Dave - Having read your original post again I have to ask is the primary bevel from the factory? Also, is the leading edge of the secondary bevel you applied square with the sides of the blade?

[Dave Mills]

I just purchased the same jig. Are you using a different stone for the secondary bevel? Have you measured the width of the blade to determine if the sides are perfectly parallel? Don't be too discouraged. I'm having my share of sharpening woes myself.


Dave - Having read your original post again I have to ask is the primary bevel from the factory? Also, is the leading edge of the secondary bevel you applied square with the sides of the blade?

On that pic, the "good" primary bevel is the original bevel from LN, and it is square to the side of the blade. The angled bevel is my attempt to re-grind the primary bevel, and it is nothing near square to the side of the blade. If you look closely at the image, there is a small (~2mm) secondary bevel on there that I put in as well, which lines up nicely to my primary bevel. I just measured the blade width, and it is 2" +/- 0.005 along the whole length. Thickness is 0.1875" +/- .001" across the edge. I don't know if that's good or bad in the scope of this issue.


I’m looking at the wheel of the guide. It appears to have more shine on the side in line with the deeper bevel. Are you pushing harder on that side? It is very important to keep equal pressure across the guide. It is very easy to get the results you are showing with unequal pressure.
You are correct regarding that shine. I have been testing pushing more with my left hand vs right hand, and it hasn't made much of a difference on the actual grind of the blade. Since that shot I sharpened two more blades, and that wear pattern is gone now.

I just sharpened a different 2" wide blade, and a 3/4" chisel. This 2" blade (a thinner steel, by the way) came out I'd say 90% good, with very slight angle on it possibly due to some idiot (me) rounding the primary bevel a bit over the last couple years. The chisel looks perfect. And the LN-62 blade as I mentioned earlier looks perfect. So the score is 2 good ones, one pretty good and certainly workable, and one with issues.

One thing I noticed is that the jig will rock left to right, just a hair on the stone as I set it down. It's a bit unnerving that it does that, but realistically I find it hard to imagine that causing the whole issue here.

Steve, do you have your jig yet, and have any results?

[Steve Mathews]

Yes, I received the jig a few days ago and have been working with it on a blade from my LN 5 1/2. I have about 6 other new LN planes backed up for honing as soon as the 5 1/2 is satisfactorily done. But back to your situation. I didn't notice the secondary bevel before but if I now understand correctly the lighter colored triangular section is your attempt to re-establish the primary bevel and the darker portion toward the front is the original grind? I don't know if you answered this but is the tip of the secondary bevel square to the sides? If so it may be the primary bevel grind (light colored triangular section?) may blend in nicely with your secondary bevel. If so you're golden. One thing I'm certain of though is the frustration in grinding a full length primary bevel in that hard A2 steel. It's slow going even with a course diamond plate.

You'll hate hearing this but I'm looking at using my surface grinder to establish these primary bevels. I'm seriously considering purchasing a magnetic sine plate for the job. Check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a18jNsEVUDg

[Rafael Herrera]

Set your blade in the honing jig with a very shallow angle and place it on a dead flat surface, can you observe if the original bevel registers along its whole length on the surface? It may have been misaligned the first time. Also, how much downward pressure did you apply? Where you doing it very fast? The stronger and faster one hones increases the likelihood of rocking the jig causing a skew.

I don't think you mentioned your sharpening medium, but if it's not flat, or if the jig wheel is gouging it, then your bevel will be uneven.

[Steve Mathews]

I wanted to add one more thing before packing it in for the night. If you're comparing your grind with the factory grind and wondering why the triangular shape it may be because your setup is different than the factory. They're using a surface grinder and a magnetic chuck to secure it. The magnetic chuck will flatten out most if not all of any warpage. It springs back afterwards. Unfortunately you have to deal with the warpage. I've experienced the exact same thing working on the back bevel, which I've talked about ad nauseam in another thread. I also talked to Lie-Nielsen directly about this and they confirm what I'm saying. Again, your primary bevel may blend in with your secondary bevel.

[Ralph Boumenot]

The LN jig does not self square. I have used the same jig since it became available on all my chisels and plane irons. You are applying too much pressure to one side of the jig and that is most likely why you are out of square. Apply counter pressure and it should correct what you have here.

[Jim Matthews]

May I suggest using a Sharpie marker to help reveal your progress?

It might help to turn your stone so it is at an angle that you can easily follow with your dominant hand.

Lastly, flatten your sharpening stones before each session, to remove a variable.

*****

Pursuit of precision can derail progress - if the plane can be adjusted for an even shaving, the iron is usable.

[les winter]

I suggest that you verify all is well with your guide. Mine came from LN with a small defect. It was a bit cocked. Try this: Remove the straight edge from a combination square and verify that it is not twisted by laying it on your table saw or jointer. Chuck it into the guide. Verify that the front edge evenly rests on a known flat surface. If it does, your problem lies elsewhere. If it doesn't, send it back. Mine came back perfect.

Oh, and make sure the jaws are seated and the four screws are tight.
Good luck!

[bill epstein]

The LN jig does not self square. I have used the same jig since it became available on all my chisels and plane irons. You are applying too much pressure to one side of the jig and that is most likely why you are out of square. Apply counter pressure and it should correct what you have here.

"The LN jig does not self square." Not sure what Mr. Boumenot means by that, the LN Jig looks as competent as my Veritas II in holding the blade square, but uneven pressure resulting from us all having a dominant hand is certainly the issue.

You only have to think of and experience how little finger pressure on the sides it takes to correctly achieve camber on an iron honed for smoothing on a really hard stone.

Absolutely draw lines with a marker or pencil on the bevel and take just a few strokes without any degree of pressure compensation to see what you're doing normally. Then compensate.

The condition of the blade now suggests that a really coarse grit, 60 maybe, as I have done in the past on a piece of float glass will be necessary to get back to your primary bevel, square to the sides. Then stop and come back to polishing the primary and making the secondary next day. Don't worry about the coarse grit, It takes very little time on higher grits to polish back to a shine once the primary is established.

Fatigue from the hundreds of strokes it took to make the result shown in your photo will interfere with finding the natural pressure it takes to get it done right.

[James Pallas]

Sharpening guides are not precision instruments. They are sharpening aids. If you were to let an inch and a half of blade hang unsupported on a mill you could expect varying results. That is with a solid fixture and base. A moving base guided by the human hand can produce excellent results just like a file. The guide itself does not correct errors without a conscious effort by the operator. After all you can produce a 1to 6 thou camber with the device easily seen by eye.

[Steve Mathews]

The LN jig does not self square. I have used the same jig since it became available on all my chisels and plane irons. You are applying too much pressure to one side of the jig and that is most likely why you are out of square. Apply counter pressure and it should correct what you have here.

If it doesn't it should.

[Dave Mills]

Thanks everyone for the tips, it has been very helpful to see the variety of suggestions. This morning I went out to check a variety of them, and this one:


Oh, and make sure the jaws are seated and the four screws are tight.
Good luck!

turns out to be the answer. The screws holding one of the jaws were snug, but not tight. After tightening them up I noticed right away that the blade is now ground straight across. As to why this blade had issues and not the others, I can only speculate that since it's the largest blade I've put in the jig, the jaws were moving a bit when I cranked it down into place. Anyway, I'm very happy with the result below. You can still see some of the original bevel, but then the primary and secondary bevels I just ground this morning.

Thanks again for the help!

435003

[Tom M King]

Glad it was a simple fix.

[david charlesworth]

It is axiomatic that narrow rollers do not dictate squareness to the edge. Wide straight rollers may do, depending on the holding system.

When using a narrow roller ;

If edge is square use even force on the two sides of the blade. Do not apply force to the guide.

My DVD on Plane Sharpening.

If edge is out of square, double force on long side and halve on short side.

I have used this guide for a few years now and it is superb.

In use it performs just like the old Eclipse 36, but with added features available.
Beginners are well advised to start with pull strokes only.

One's attention (and force) needs to be concentrated on the blade close to where it touches the stone.

[James Pallas]

It is axiomatic that narrow rollers do not dictate squareness to the edge. Wide straight rollers may do, depending on the holding system.

When using a narrow roller ;

If edge is square use even force on the two sides of the blade. Do not apply force to the guide.

My DVD on Plane Sharpening.

If edge is out of square, double force on long side and halve on short side.

I have used this guide for a few years now and it is superb.

In use it performs just like the old Eclipse 36, but with added features available.
Beginners are well advised to start with pull strokes only.

One's attention (and force) needs to be concentrated on the blade close to where it touches the stone.
If you do all the manipulation of the edge with hand pressure you don’t need a guide. If you pressure one side and the other you will find you are cambering the edge. Same thing as saying don’t use the flat bottom of a plane and the camber to straighten an edge, just tip the plane and manipulate it by feel.