Help me decide on a table saw

[Scott Winter]

All,

Well I am 2 weeks from moving into my new home where my 2 car garage (approx 20'x20') will be my new "man cave". I'm probably going to dedicate the one side for my woodworking area, and the other side will be for whatever I need it for at that time (working on cars, additional space if I'm doing a big woodworking project, etc).

I took advantage of the DW735X deal going on ($500 shipped via Amazon, and I believe other big box stores have the same deal) now since it'll likely end by the time I move in. Now my next step is going to be purchasing a table saw.

I've gone back and forth so many times. I am keeping my eye on the Craigslist/Facebook marketplace, but nothing of quality has shown up as of yet. That's probably option 1 if something comes up relatively soon. I may end up having to purchase new, just because I need to hit the ground running as soon as we move into the new house. The Mrs already has a "honey do" list started, so I have no time to waste :)

Projects on the list as of right now consist of:

Queen size headboard for our bed
2x matching end tables for our bedroom
1x end table for our living room
Key rack & Mail slot holder combination
2x End grain cutting boards (smaller & larger one)

My plan is to buy tools kind of as I need them. I am going to hold off purchasing a jointer, as I plan on just making a jointer sled for the planer, and use hand planes as needed. I plan on getting the DW735X planer (ordered already), a quality table saw (contractor or cabinet), and a router & table.

I don't have a budget per-say, but I don't want to throw money at a saw that is beyond what I need. I've been looking at the Laguna F2 which is on sale at Woodcraft for $1259 + $100 shipping, but I am debating if I should spend a little more and get the Sawstop contractor 36" rip capacity model instead? Currently I would like to stick with a 110v model as I do not have 220v in the garage, and don't see it necessary for what I'm doing.

[Frank Pratt]

I'm happy to help you spend your money. The SawStop PCS cabinet saw is available with a 1.75 HP motor that can be 120V or 240V. Dust collection is better than the contractor saw and it doesn't have the motor sticking out the back. Even safety brake aside, it is an excellent saw.

[tim walker]

I have the 52" SawStop Cabinet saw. Its beyond what you want/nee/want to spend, but the safety factor alone for these saws is worth the price of admission. The quality of my saw is also beyond expectations, and I would make the assumption that all SawStop products are as well. And they are engineered in America, but I believe manufactured in Taiwan to exacting specifications. As Frank mentioned, the dust collection will be far superior. My previous saw was a Powermatic 64 contractors saw and the motor hung off the back. No way to effectively collect the dust. Also, cabinet saws have a different mounting for the trunnions, and you will find the cabinet saw mush more manageable and easier to align. Best of luck on the projects (my guess is you will end up using the full 20x20 space for woodworking)

[Mike Henderson]

Get the 3HP SawStop PCS if you have access to 240V. No question.

Mike

[Mike Kees]

For new saws Check out the Grizzly 1023 saws. Used Delta contractor or any cabinet saw (Delta,Jet,Powermatic,General.)

[Brian Tymchak]

It appears you are leaning towards new, but if you happen to look into used contractor style saws, I highly recommend a Ridgid 3650. Mine has been a solid workhorse for about 12 years now. If I upgrade it will most likely be to 3hp SawStop.

[Andy D Jones]

OP: A 400 sf garage seems like a lot of space, but you've already mentioned alternative uses for ~half of that space. That puts you into a shop space for which you need to consider getting more than one function from much of your equipment.

My garage shop is similarly sized, but must (by decree) house the SUV overnight, excepting only rare occasions. So all of my equipment except the wood lathe are on mobile bases, and "parked" in one half of the garage, to be rolled out for work as needed.

You might want to consider a router table extension wing for your table saw, rather than a stand-alone router table.

You didn't mention work/assembly benches, or outfeed supports/tables.

You didn't mention dust collection. If most/all of your machines are on mobile bases, you are probably looking at a mobile dust collector too.

If your projects involve curved cuts, you might want to consider a band saw.

When you decide you need a jointer, consider a combo jointer/planer, which will replace your planer too.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Eric Arnsdorff]

The SawStop looks like a good saw and it has a good safety feature.
My opinion is it is still very pricey. You can use that money other places if you choose and get the same quality saw for less. A Riving knife and using the blade guard will provide the safety aspects without the expense.
I had a Craftsman saw for over 20 years and it was good but the Delta Unisaw I recently purchased (cabinet saw) is a huge improvement. I would recommend a cabinet saw for the reasons others have mentioned. There are a number of good options to choose from.

[Rod Wolfy]

I've had several table saws, including a Jet 52", Bosch, Felder & SawStop. You don't need a 52” fence, get a 36" (cuts over half of 48”).

I learned long ago that sheet goods are very difficult to cut on a table saw, but they are the staple in cabinet construction. The solution was a couple of saw horses and a track saw. I bring my sheet goods home and cut them down in the driveway or store them and then cut them down, with a track saw. They are much more manageable in a small shop space.

There are a lot of quality table saws for less money on the used market; however, it's very, very rare to find a SawStop for sale. I watched CL for over two years in the Seattle area and only saw like 2 or 3. And the prices were almost like buying a new one, due to demand.

Great saw. I have a 36” with 3hp.

[Ryan Yeaglin]

There is a woodcraft in Harrisburg, you can save shipping by picking stuff up at the store. The Ridgid 4512 is a good saw for the money. I was going to buy one, but lucked into a used Ridgid 3612 for $225. Finding deals on craigslist/ facebook market place can be had, but you have to look all the time. I think the concept of the sawstop is awesome, but the price is very high, the contractor saw is just too expensive. There isn't a price for your fingers, BUT.... a lot can be said for common sense in the workshop and paying attention to the task at hand. The old adage of keeping your hand where they belong will keep you safe.

[Ben Helmich]

1.75 HP Sawstop 36" T-glide fence is $2619 + tax with local pickup. Definately reccomend a cabinet saw, definately reccomend a riving knife. I was looking hard at the Grizzly 1023 before I decided on a Sawstop. If I did it again I would go with the Sawstop I mentioned. 52" cut hasn't been that useful and takes more room, 3HP probably isn't needed for me either. 1.75 HP will plug in to any 110V outlet. I've heard that the Sawstop 30" fence is not nearly as good as the 36 or 52". 52" might be more useful if putting a router on that end.

[John Terefenko]

Not a big fan of Sawstop for the politics it has attached to it and he would never ever get a dollar of my money. You may want to take a look at the Laguana line of tools. They are well built. Yes they do not have the break the saw blade break system but jigs and safety precautions have worked well for so many years. Many other tools in a shop that can bite you just as bad as a tablesaw.

[Frank Pratt]

Even without the blade brake, the SawStop PCS is an excellent saw. Fit, finish and customer support are higher than any of the competitive saws I looked at when shopping. And that includes the generic Asian machines, Laguna, Delta, and Powermatic.

If Steve Gass's politics are not to your liking, then it's a moot point, cause he's got nothing to do with the company anymore.

[Jim Becker]

While I'm also not a fan-boi of SawStop's inventor, the company is now owned by Festool's parent company.

[Robert Chapman]

I agree with Frank Pratt's advice - get a SawStop PCS with the 1.75 hp motor. I would add that you should get the SawStop Industrial mobile base so that you can easily move the saw. The Industrial mobile base, while more expensive is a vast improvement over the Professional mobile base.

[John Terefenko]

While I'm also not a fan-boi of SawStop's inventor, the company is now owned by Festool's parent company.
So that means companies like Bosch who had a better breaking system than his can now put theirs into play or does he still own that patent and control it. That what it is all about. You say it is better made. Have you compared side by side or just word of mouth like all these reviews are done. Festool makes some great tools but come with extreme $$$$ tags and I am sure their tablesaw will be no exception. So you will not convince me so do not try. If you love the saw then buy it by all means. Not my money so have fun and enjoy it. Can not take it with you.

[Stan Calow]

Just my opinion as a hobbyist. Looking at your list of projects, there's nothing that a good contractor saw wont do. Saying a hobbyist needs a cabinet saw for the infrequent use you're likely to have, is like saying dont buy a truck unless its a loaded Ford F-350, when a Ranger will do. I have the Sawstop contractor and it does everything I need, is good quality, and has the safety features. I would recommend you get the mobile base and upgraded fence, however, which makes it more expensive. Hobbyists have different value criteria than a pro. The cost difference to upgrade to a contractor saw would pay for some of those other tools you will need.

[glenn bradley]

Looks like we scared Scott off. This is always a difficult subject to get through.

[Jim Becker]

So that means companies like Bosch who had a better breaking system than his can now put theirs into play or does he still own that patent and control it. That what it is all about. You say it is better made. Have you compared side by side or just word of mouth like all these reviews are done. Festool makes some great tools but come with extreme $$$$ tags and I am sure their tablesaw will be no exception. So you will not convince me so do not try. If you love the saw then buy it by all means. Not my money so have fun and enjoy it. Can not take it with you.

1) I don't know the status of the patents, but I suspect that the IP passed with the sale of the company
2) I've never said that Sawstop was better made. I don't own one and only ever even seen one up close and personal. Others say they are well made and I'm fine with that assessment since it seems to be very consistent across many owners. I own and use a sliding table saw and wouldn't go back to a cabinet saw anyway.
3) Buy what you feel has the right value for you. I personally am not trying to convince you of anything. I was merely pointing out the fact of the change of ownership and I'm not sure where you got all the rest from...

[Frank Pratt]

You say it is better made. Have you compared side by side or just word of mouth like all these reviews are done.

I looked at every table saw brand that was for sale in the city when I was shopping. The only conventional North American type table saws that could compare quality wise were the Powermatic PM1000 & PM2000 with the PCS sitting somewhere between the 1000 & 2000. The Hammer & Felder sliders were very nice too, but not directly comparable.

[Jim Dwight]

I have a SawStop PCS with 36 inch rip fence and 1.75hp motor. I looked at the 30 inch but it is not nearly as nice as the 36. I also still have the end of the middle finger of my left hand due to using this saw instead of the cheaper table saws I used without incident for over 40 years. I got stupid and the SawStop turned it into a six stitch + broken bone incident instead of an amputation. That is my opinion and also the opinion of the Surgeon who treated me. He sees a lot of table saw injuries from what the nurses said.

I agree with Jim B about SawStop's inventors sales strategy and I disagree with their sales statement that their saws have not been involved in serious injuries. In my mind, six stitches, a trip to urgent care, a splint for a couple weeks and permanent set of scars is serious. I guess it is not to them. But I still have my finger and am using it right now to type this due to the brake.

I use wood three inches thick when that is what the design calls for. I discovered after buying the SawStop 1.75hp that it will not rip even softwood well at that thickness without a thin kerf blade. I have used full kerf previously on other 110V saws. But with a thin kerf ripping blade, it does well. Normal feed rate, no issues. If you do not mind changing blades occasionally I think it is fully adequate. But you need a 20A 110V circuit. I had it plugged into a power strip with 15A breaker for awhile and it would trip that regularly. On a 20A circuit no issues.

Dust control with a "2hp" HF DC is pretty good. Minimal dust in the cabinet with the hose connection on the back hooked to the DC. I tried it with a shop vac and it did not work well at all. It did not move enough air and the cabinet has all kinds of holes in it.

For bedroom furniture (I realize it was not your question) I recommend WoodSmith's cherry bedroom set with a queen sized bed. Both my married kids and I sleep on one. I modify the plan to a platform bed but the design is good, the bed is attractive we believe, and it is pretty easy to make. My son and his wife's is oak, mine and my daughter and son-in-law have cherry. I find the nightstand too short (seems to be my opinion of a lot of WoodSmith plans) but I just added a drawer to mine and like the nightstands. My son and daughter in law have an expanded dresser, about double the size of the WoodSmith, and my daughter and son-in-law have one built to the plans. It is too small in our opinion. Long way of saying I like the design and the ease of built but changed some things. I still need to build my dresser.

I recommend stretching the budget, if necessary, to get a SawStop. It does not prevent serious injuries IMHO but it seems to prevent amputations. It is also a sturdy, solid, pleasure to use table saw. Feels like a Unisaw or Powermatic or other high end saw. If you need to, I would get the contractor saw to save money. I haven't used it but it looks like a good contractor saw. They also make a portable but I haven't even looked at it.

Good luck.

[Mike Henderson]

So that means companies like Bosch who had a better braking system than his can now put theirs into play or does he still own that patent and control it. That what it is all about. You say it is better made. Have you compared side by side or just word of mouth like all these reviews are done. Festool makes some great tools but come with extreme $$$$ tags and I am sure their tablesaw will be no exception. So you will not convince me so do not try. If you love the saw then buy it by all means. Not my money so have fun and enjoy it. Can not take it with you.

It's almost inconceivable that Festool would purchase SawStop and not get the patents. Festool's ownership of the patents does not mean that Bosch (and others) can infringe the patents. I'm sure that Festool would defend the patents just as strongly as Gass.

Eventually the patents will expire and then others can use the technology on their products. I don't know the expiration date of the last patent but I would expect there's not too many years left.

Mike

[Alex Zeller]

My guess is in another 3 to 5 years most saws will have similar brakes to the SS.

When I read the op post I read "money is a little tight to spend on woodworking equipment but I really want to have a shop to make my own stuff". If so I can understand this. My advice is to look at woodworking equipment auctions. There's plenty in PA so finding a used cabinet saw (PM66 or Unisaw) for a good price shouldn't be too hard. Then, as money permits, you can upgrade. Just avoid 3 phase equipment unless you can understand what's involved with getting it to work on the power in your house.

[mike stenson]

My guess is in another 3 to 5 years most saws will have similar brakes to the SS.

.

The first patent expires in 2021, but can possibly extended to 2024. There are, however, over 100 associated patents. So, it may take a while..

Oh and yes, the IP was really the only reason to buy sawstop.

[Scott Winter]

Looks like we scared Scott off. This is always a difficult subject to get through.

Definitely not scared off!! :)

A little change between when I posted until right now. My other (better) half put the kibosh on the DW735X for now since we have a baby on the way in two months. Said I can still get it, but since we don't NEED it right now that it would be better to wait (even though we're going to lose out on the $150 off promo). I can just use dimensional lumber for now until then. I'm still getting a table saw though since I convinced her that nothing could get done without it (ok maybe I stretched that a little bit.... :) )

I'm taking in all the advice I've received in this thread, and going to really weigh out the pro/con of each saw. Right now here is what I have it narrowed down to:

Rigid R4520 (Low end)
Laguna F2 (Middle)
Saw Stop 36" Contractor (High end)
Saw Stop 36" PCS (Ultra high end)

I'm pretty torn between the Laguna and SS Contractor. I don't think I will get another $500+ in benefit going up to the SS PCS for my needs. I may just say screw it and get a Dewalt job site saw, and a track saw instead.

[Rod Wolfy]

I've had a Bosch Jobsite saw. It was underpowered for 8/4, even with a thin kerf blade. The universal motor is not nearly as strong as an actual 1.75 on a "contractor's" type saw with the belt hanging out the back. I'd suggest a used CL saw before a jobsite saw.
happens.
However, as Jim Dwight posted, it's hard to argue a SS vs. something else when a true accident I actually was REALLY against SawStops/Gass's politics myself and refused to get one for years. However, no matter how safe I believe I've been and despite whatever my politics have been, I've STILL had car accidents and table saw accidents.

My friend lost the first digit of his left index finger last year, when he turned to look at what his dog was barking at, after he had turned off his table saw... He didn't get the finger back at it cost north of $3k at the hospital.

[Andy D Jones]

While I'm also not a fan-boi of SawStop's inventor, the company is now owned by Festool's parent company.

Sorry, that does not absolve Festool or their parent company.

Festool's parent company knew what Sawstop did, and ultimately rewarded them for it; therefore, they they can suffer for it just as well.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[james manutes]

I don't have any knowledge of Saw Stop's "origins" , so can someone explain the issue to me about the guy ? Don't want to argue with anyone , just curious .

[Jim Becker]

I don't have any knowledge of Saw Stop's "origins" , so can someone explain the issue to me about the guy ? Don't want to argue with anyone , just curious .
There are bunches of threads on this here and in probably every other woodworking forum out there.

[Robert London]

If you’re in the 1200-1300 range, there are a lot of saws to pick from. Not sure if people’s advice to double your budget and buy a saw stop is helping you. I was thinking of getting a contractor SS, but upgraded to the 1 3/4 cabinet SS and had it almost a year. Nice saw and I enjoy using it. But $2500 is still a lot of money if you’re wanting to spend 1/2 that. There’s no perfect saw in that range of 1200 - 1400 range and going to have to make some concessions. I would consider a hybrid saw and buy the best fence I could afford.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have a friend who loves old iron. I suggest, however, that whatever you purchase should have a few specific features, mostly related to safety.



Riving knife or splitter that is easy to put on and remove (in case you want to use a dado blade) and you do want one for normal cuts.
Anti-kickback pawls.
blade guard
Better dust collection is good.
Decent fence


Some of the older saws might be missing the first two, pretty much all newer saws will have that. I chose the SawStop because I wanted the extra safety around my fingers. The owner of a local woodworking store told me that the instructions for assembling the SawStop were the best of any saw he had to assemble, and he had assembled the ones that they carried, so for certain Jet and Powermatic, not sure which others.

That said, another crucial thing is support and parts. After some years my SawStop failed. I made a phone call and almost immediately was speaking with someone who talked me through the most likely problem (capacitor failure) and which parts made sense to ship based on parts cost compared to shipping costs, so, I ordered two parts even though we figured it was only one that failed. Two days later I was up and running again, but, if that had not fixed it, I already had a good idea of what would be tried next.

I vaguely remember people complaining about parts and Delta saws. I would ask people about their after purchase support when something failed on a Powermatic, Jet, or Grizzly.

I did not even mention some of the sliders or European machines that have a great reputation because (1) I know almost nothing about them and (2) I did not think that they were on your list of things to consider.

Finally, I saw that a track saw was mentioned. I have a Dewalt that I got on a super sale on Amazon for a price that I could not refuse. To be clear, you can build your own track, but, some people use the festool system rather than a table saw. Lots of advantages to that. Also some disadvantages. I like to use my Dewalt to break down large sheet goods because it is easier than trying to manhandle it through the table saw AND because I do not have room around the saw to do it. In front of my saw I have a water heater that limits the length of what I can feed. I don't remember the length, but probably about 6' or so. I also use the track saw when I have rough lumber and I want to cut a long straight line along one edge. This gives me a reference surface without using a jig on the table saw.

Side note: I really liked my old ridgid saw, but it was missing some safety features or they were very tricky to deal with. I would not expect that on a newer saw.

[Frank Pratt]

I may just say screw it and get a Dewalt job site saw, and a track saw instead.

Really bad idea, unless you have a need to move the saw around from site to site. For that cost you could get a really decent used contractor saw that is 10X the machine.

[glenn bradley]

I would avoid a contractor format saw and all the problems that come with that design. I'm sure there's one or two out there that can tilt the blade without skewing out of alignment but, they are like unicorns. When I moved from a contractor (An old Craftsman that I had thrown a couple of hundred dollars of aftermarket goodies at to make very, very functional) to a hybrid it was a tremendous step despite similar power capabilities. The stability and reliability of getting what you expect when you set the saw for a cut is what a saw should deliver every time without a lot of extra steps. We can only do what we can do so I would offer this; if you are buying a contractor, consider it a next-step-saw and go in an inexpensively as you can.

[Frank Pratt]

I would avoid a contractor format saw and all the problems that come with that design. I'm sure there's one or two out there that can tilt the blade without skewing out of alignment but, they are like unicorns.

That's a good point. My last saw was a unicorn, but come to think of it, the one before (Rockwell Beaver 9") was terrible when the blade was tilted. Actually, it was just plain terrible in every way.

I still thing that if you shop carefully, you'd end up with one that's miles better than a job site saw.

[Jim Dwight]

I am not familar with the SawStop contractor saw but there are lots of reviews on youtube. Typically the contractor saw has the blade lowering and tilting mechanism attached to the saw top, not the cabinet. The PCS has the height and tilting mechanism attached to the cabinet. That is preferable so you can more easily true it up if necessary. Dust collection is nearly always better on the closed cabinet saw. But many people get clever with contractor saws and get decent dust collection. The contractor saw also takes up more space due to the motor hanging off the back. I think the SS contractor saw would be as safe as the PCS.

I do not believe a track saw is a replacement for a table saw but I really like having both. Mine is a DeWalt. It or the Makita will give you results comparable to a Festool from the reviews I've seen for a much lower price. It is possible to do most cuts on the track saw but it is challenging to cut smaller pieces of wood with the track saw. In my shop, the track saw cuts large pieces, solid or sheet, and the table saw cuts smaller things and joints. I think a track saw is also safer than a table saw. On the low end, even the Wen seems like it would be a useful addition. Izzy Swan reviewed it on youtube and said it's a keeper for him.

I used less expensive table saws and tools in general for most of my time making sawdust. I made a lot of furniture for myself and my kids with them. I like having nicer tools but they are not absolutely necessary.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I do not believe a track saw is a replacement for a table saw but I really like having both. Mine is a DeWalt. It or the Makita will give you results comparable to a Festool from the reviews I've seen for a much lower price. It is possible to do most cuts on the track saw but it is challenging to cut smaller pieces of wood with the track saw. In my shop, the track saw cuts large pieces, solid or sheet, and the table saw cuts smaller things and joints. I think a track saw is also safer than a table saw. On the low end, even the Wen seems like it would be a useful addition. Izzy Swan reviewed it on youtube and said it's a keeper for him.

Although I agree with you, the Festool thing has a special table with things that apparently help you do things like make a parallel cut (and similar). Not having used it, I cannot say with any certainty.

[John Terefenko]

I've had a Bosch Jobsite saw. It was underpowered for 8/4, even with a thin kerf blade. The universal motor is not nearly as strong as an actual 1.75 on a "contractor's" type saw with the belt hanging out the back. I'd suggest a used CL saw before a jobsite saw.
happens.
However, as Jim Dwight posted, it's hard to argue a SS vs. something else when a true accident I actually was REALLY against SawStops/Gass's politics myself and refused to get one for years. However, no matter how safe I believe I've been and despite whatever my politics have been, I've STILL had car accidents and table saw accidents.

My friend lost the first digit of his left index finger last year, when he turned to look at what his dog was barking at, after he had turned off his table saw... He didn't get the finger back at it cost north of $3k at the hospital.

Did you ever look at the turning forums and all the accidents with things flying off the lathe and all the broken noses and blackeyes and bruises. Did you ever go to the router forums and read about all the kickbacks and fingers getting mangled. It is not only tablesaws that cause injuries and in fact it is not the saw at all but the person standing behind that tool. Yes you save yourself a trip for injury but beware other things lurk in the shop. I just hate reading this same old tired thing about how much it saved in emergency room visits. Use better safety precautions. I have used a Delta contractors saw for over 35 years and have gotten a better fence and better miter gauges and use sleds and hold downs and push sticks all the time. Am I lucky or just safety conscious. Probably both. So I will leave it at that.

[Rod Wolfy]

John, I totally agree. I have a message posted on my "chop saw", ”Is it safer on the bandsaw?".

Many people actually use a miter saw with a "chopping" motion and then when the blade goes back up, a couple teeth fling the piece at them; not knowing that they are supposed to leave it down until the blade stops.

But, a sharp mind is the safest tool. Thinking through your work and how it might bite you, if you're not careful.

But, any extra safety equipment helps. Push sticks, feather boards, and table saw blades that stop on a dime.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

I see mostly Saw Stop recommendations in this thread.

I've never used one but I did (and still do) look at the models my local Woodcraft store stocks before I purchased my used Delta Unisaw. I'm very happy with my Unisw purchase and I like it better than the Saw Stops.

I'd like to note that Saw Stop doesn't prevent all injury nor do they claim specifically that it will. There are serious injuries that have happened with the Saw Stop. It then becomes debatable if the technology did reduce what could have been. I would like to think it does but there is nothing definitive that you won't have a serious injury or even amputation with a Saw Stop. I would argue that a table saw with a quality blade guard and riving knife is capable of providing an improved level of safety. Additionally, you won't have to pay for accidental blade trips.

I'm not against Saw Stop and I like the technology. The cost does seem very high. But that is typical of a patented technology that does provide a benefit.

I think the benefit here is that it may be used in place of a blade guard (even though they provide a blade guard and riving knife for safety). Saw Stop doesn't and won't recommend you not use the other safety features. With these features in place there is a finite probability the additional Saw Stop feature will reduce some level of injury. With the standard safety features in place this becomes a small probability of risk reduction and in typical hazard mitigation strategies falls into a feasibility question.

So if this is feasible in your budget and you like the Saw Stop (it is a good saw) then go for it. But I don't see it as a safety mitigation that you can't live without. The argument seems to go that since there is some risk reduction involved that everyone should spend the extra money for it. I really doubt most of us based our auto buying decision around this logic and you are at much higher risk in your vehicle.

If you fall into the category that I do and want to use that additional money to spend on other things then you have a number of good options.
The OP is considering additional options which I find an interesting list of options as well.

[Mike Henderson]

I see mostly Saw Stop recommendations in this thread.

I've never used one but I did (and still do) look at the models my local Woodcraft store stocks before I purchased my used Delta Unisaw. I'm very happy with my Unisw purchase and I like it better than the Saw Stops.

I'd like to note that Saw Stop doesn't prevent all injury nor do they claim specifically that it will. There are serious injuries that have happened with the Saw Stop. It then becomes debatable if the technology did reduce what could have been. I would like to think it does but there is nothing definitive that you won't have a serious injury or even amputation with a Saw Stop. I would argue that a table saw with a quality blade guard and riving knife is capable of providing an improved level of safety. Additionally, you won't have to pay for accidental blade trips.

I'm not against Saw Stop and I like the technology. The cost does seem very high. But that is typical of a patented technology that does provide a benefit.

I think the benefit here is that it may be used in place of a blade guard (even though they provide a blade guard and riving knife for safety). Saw Stop doesn't and won't recommend you not use the other safety features. With these features in place there is a finite probability the additional Saw Stop feature will reduce some level of injury. With the standard safety features in place this becomes a small probability of risk reduction and in typical hazard mitigation strategies falls into a feasibility question.

So if this is feasible in your budget and you like the Saw Stop (it is a good saw) then go for it. But I don't see it as a safety mitigation that you can't live without. The argument seems to go that since there is some risk reduction involved that everyone should spend the extra money for it. I really doubt most of us based our auto buying decision around this logic and you are at much higher risk in your vehicle.

If you fall into the category that I do and want to use that additional money to spend on other things then you have a number of good options.
The OP is considering additional options which I find an interesting list of options as well.

I, for one, can say that the SawStop saved my finger. I wound up with a small cut on my thumb. Without the SawStop I'd be missing my thumb.

No technology can guarantee that you won't get injured but there are lots of stories like mine where the SawStop saved someone's fingers or hand. Let's say that in 95% of the cases it will save your fingers or hand. I'd take that level of protection. I'd work safe but I'd know that there's some technology that has my back in case I make a mistake.

I look at the extra cost of a SawStop as an insurance payment. The good thing is that it's a one time payment and the protection is there for the rest of my life.

Mike

[Jim Dwight]

I believe the reason I got a broken bone and six stitches with a SawStop was a combination of using a 3/4 dado blade (harder to stop) and a kick back throwing my hand into the blade quickly. The hot dog tests are done at a relatively low speed and it just gets scratched. The brake stops the blade (or blades) quickly but if your hand is moving quickly and forcefully into the blade you can still get what I would call a serious injury. SawStop has the data but I have not seen where they have shared it. All I've seen is the claim of no serious injuries - which I do not believe. But I will say again that my surgeon and I both believe I only have the end of my left middle finger because the SS brake stopped the blades in time. The technology is a bit oversold in my opinion but it works.

With respect to track saw accessories there are definitely more for Festools. But I have parallel guides for my DeWalt but I had to make them (I don't like them much and use home made track positioning guides instead). Many Festool accessories will work on other saws with similar style rails like Makita or even Wen (I think). DeWalt is unique in using a double sided rail so Festool stuff doesn't work for DeWalt. A key benefit of the Festool MFT (multi function table) is accurate crosscuts. I do that with rail dogs. There is a guy on you tube with a Festool saw that stopped using the MFT cross cut setup and uses rail dogs instead (I think he goes by woodgrafter or something like that). I am using a Paulk style outfeed table/workbench with 20mm holes made with a Woodrave router base. There are other ways to accurately bore the holes. I was surprised by the accuracy of my holes since the router base indexes off pegboard. Pegboard is visibly off a little but my crosscuts are as accurate as any square I have to measure them with - good enough for me. I'm sure the MFT is nice but it, like everything Festool (and I have a domino and a few other things Festool) it is also expensive. My point is just that there are other ways to get to at least similar accuracy that are cheaper. I also think you could use a MFT with a Makita track saw.

[John Terefenko]

I, for one, can say that the SawStop saved my finger. I wound up with a small cut on my thumb. Without the SawStop I'd be missing my thumb.

No technology can guarantee that you won't get injured but there are lots of stories like mine where the SawStop saved someone's fingers or hand. Let's say that in 95% of the cases it will save your fingers or hand. I'd take that level of protection. I'd work safe but I'd know that there's some technology that has my back in case I make a mistake.

I look at the extra cost of a SawStop as an insurance payment. The good thing is that it's a one time payment and the protection is there for the rest of my life.

Mike
Mike you are lucky you had the safety system on. How many times people shut it off and still use the saw. How did you cut the thumb?? I bet it was a dumb thing on your part and had nothing to do with the saw. Most accidents are sooooooooooooooo preventable and many times people operating tools should not even be in a shop. A shop full of tools has danger lurking around every corner. Just walking into a shop which for most times is a crowded jammed packed shop because we all lack the room we all want. Trip and fall and an accident happened. Bend over and hit head on corner of work bench and an accident happened. Just saying SawStop can not prevent all accidents. If Sawstop is extra cost of an insurance plan what have you done with the rest of the shop to prevent injuries. ??? I just see these arguments over and over. Tell the whole story not just the tablesaw story. tell us have you been injured with any other tool in the shop since you have been working in one. It is not a one time payment. Every time you trip that brake it cost you a blade plus the shoe. So add that to the payment.

[Andy D Jones]

If the SS never discharged for nuisance contact with metal or wet wood, destroying a (replaceable at cost+profit) part of itself and the saw blade in the process, then it could be called a one-time insurance payment.

I haven't counted, but I'd say the number of nuisance discharges outnumber the limb-saving ones ~10:1. So add the cost of 10 cartridges and 10 saw blades to that "insurance" cost.

Add to that, the SS's incompatibility with the best dado sets (because SS didn't bother to beef up the arbor to handle the momentum). Did somebody say SS was a well-built machine?

If you want that kind of insurance, you're more than welcome to it.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Mike you are lucky you had the safety system on. How many times people shut it off and still use the saw. How did you cut the thumb?? I bet it was a dumb thing on your part and had nothing to do with the saw. Most accidents are sooooooooooooooo preventable and many times people operating tools should not even be in a shop. A shop full of tools has danger lurking around every corner. Just walking into a shop which for most times is a crowded jammed packed shop because we all lack the room we all want. Trip and fall and an accident happened. Bend over and hit head on corner of work bench and an accident happened. Just saying SawStop can not prevent all accidents. If Sawstop is extra cost of an insurance plan what have you done with the rest of the shop to prevent injuries. ??? I just see these arguments over and over. Tell the whole story not just the tablesaw story. tell us have you been injured with any other tool in the shop since you have been working in one. It is not a one time payment. Every time you trip that brake it cost you a blade plus the shoe. So add that to the payment.

I like safety features even if almost every accident is preventable. I am flawed, the wood is flawed, etc. I know I do not need a riven knife, splitter, blade guard, or even a fence; I see people on TV cutting wood without any of that, they just feed that board through by hand and eye. That is a level of talent I do not have. I used to own a saw lacking many safety features. I chose a saw with safety features with which I am more comfortable and I am still very cautious and assume that every single one of them will fail. While doing some explosives research, I worked with a guy who followed every single rule and procedure and he still almost died. we now have new rules, devices, and procedures. After many months, he is back to work.

[Mike Henderson]

If the SS never discharged for nuisance contact with metal or wet wood, destroying a (replaceable at cost+profit) part of itself and the saw blade in the process, then it could be called a one-time insurance payment.

I haven't counted, but I'd say the number of nuisance discharges outnumber the limb-saving ones ~10:1. So add the cost of 10 cartridges and 10 saw blades to that "insurance" cost.

Add to that, the SS's incompatibility with the best dado sets (because SS didn't bother to beef up the arbor to handle the momentum). Did somebody say SS was a well-built machine?

If you want that kind of insurance, you're more than welcome to it.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

I don't know where you get your 10:1 statistic but that certainly is not my experience. I've had one activation where it wasn't my finger.

Mike

[But even if I had to pay for 10 activations to save my finger, I'd pay it. My fingers are worth that to me. But I haven't had to pay for 10 activations yet.]

[Mike Henderson]

Mike you are lucky you had the safety system on. How many times people shut it off and still use the saw. How did you cut the thumb?? I bet it was a dumb thing on your part and had nothing to do with the saw. Most accidents are sooooooooooooooo preventable and many times people operating tools should not even be in a shop. A shop full of tools has danger lurking around every corner. Just walking into a shop which for most times is a crowded jammed packed shop because we all lack the room we all want. Trip and fall and an accident happened. Bend over and hit head on corner of work bench and an accident happened. Just saying SawStop can not prevent all accidents. If Sawstop is extra cost of an insurance plan what have you done with the rest of the shop to prevent injuries. ??? I just see these arguments over and over. Tell the whole story not just the tablesaw story. tell us have you been injured with any other tool in the shop since you have been working in one. It is not a one time payment. Every time you trip that brake it cost you a blade plus the shoe. So add that to the payment.

I don't even know how to turn the safety system off. I'd have to go read the instructions if I wanted to do that. And even if you do that, my understanding is that it's reset next time you turn the saw on.

About the only reason I could see for turning it off is if you're cutting wet wood.

Regarding my accident, I made a mistake. And that's what SawStop is good for - when you make a mistake you don't pay for it with one of your fingers. And just because there's no additional safety feature on other tools is no reason not to have a safety feature on your table saw. I'll take all the safety features I can get.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If the SS never discharged for nuisance contact with metal or wet wood, destroying a (replaceable at cost+profit) part of itself and the saw blade in the process, then it could be called a one-time insurance payment.

I haven't counted, but I'd say the number of nuisance discharges outnumber the limb-saving ones ~10:1. So add the cost of 10 cartridges and 10 saw blades to that "insurance" cost.

Add to that, the SS's incompatibility with the best dado sets (because SS didn't bother to beef up the arbor to handle the momentum). Did somebody say SS was a well-built machine?

If you want that kind of insurance, you're more than welcome to it.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

Sorry, need to disagree with the assumption. Assume for the moment that there is a 10 to 1 non-limb-saving discharge ratio. It is very unlikely that you personally will have 10 accidental discharges. Most accidental discharges are from obvious mistakes such as running wet wood or cutting aluminum (intentionally or not). I only ever remember hearing of one person who had two of these discharges before he figured out what he was doing wrong; and I do not remember the cause off hand. In general, the brake does not just randomly fire unless the saw is broken. It means that the user did something wrong and they usually learn from that mistake. In over 10 years of saw use, I have never had a discharge, so, it does not seem to be firing randomly.

I knew a guy who owned a place where they taught woodworking classes. He said that they never had an accidental discharge, but it saved one finger over the course of a few years. He supplied the wood so they never had wet wood and were probably not trying to cut metal or performing cuts that would place metal things near the blade, but I have seen that happen (not in person, but on forums).

[Dave Mount]

Mike you are lucky you had the safety system on. How many times people shut it off and still use the saw.

Not buying a SawStop because one has philosophical objections to the early history of the invention is the right of an American consumer.

But, as the saying goes, we're entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts.

Fact: To deactivate the blade brake, you have to turn a key and hold it in that position against spring tension for several seconds while simultaneously activating the power switch. It takes two hands to do this (one hand on the key, one on the power switch), so there's no way it can happen unintentionally. As soon as you shut the saw off, the system reverts to standard condition (brake on). So there is also not a way to leave the brake off unknowingly.

It seems clear that SawStop made the procedure mildly convoluted specifically to prevent people from having the brake deactivated unintentionally.

Best,

Dave

[Scott Bernstein]

Love my sawstop PCS. Would buy again. The only thing I would do differently would be to have purchased the 220V/3Hp version in the beginning. I started with the smaller 120V motor and two years in bought the larger motor from SawStop and installed it myself. I have had two discharges in five years - one when I grabbed a metal ruler to use as a push stick and it got too close to the blade and the other when my metal miter fence went into the blade. There are some minor issues with certain blades and dado sets...you are not supposed to use a coated/insulated blade since this could inhibit the safety system. As far as dado sets, the limitation is that you are not supposed to use a dado set with full-plate chippers. However, most dado sets do not use full-plate chippers. I have used dado sets from Freud and most recently the Ridge Carbide dado stack - both work great. In fact, the second safety brake trigger was with my Freud dado set, which is why I bought the Ridge Carbide. I would use the Ridge Carbide no matter what saw I had.

[Jim Dwight]

I have had no accidental cartridge activations. It is a little complicated to turn the system off and you have to do it for each cut. I'm glad mine was on when i messed up.

[Michael Drew]

My two car garage is my shop. I have graduated from a variety of tools to new and better tools over the past twenty years living in this house. All the while day dreaming about building a dedicated wood working shop.

First, I would highly recommend you have an electrician swing by and see how difficult it would be to run 220V to an outlet in the garage. It may not be that much of an effort if the panel is in the garage. My first TS was a Rigid machine. Nice little TS, up till I got a cabinet saw with 3hp motor, then I realized just how much the contractor saw sucked.

If I were looking at new saws, and budget wasn't a big deal, I'd probably get one of SawStops. Not for the safety as much as quality. But I might just get the PowerMatic. I dunno, I'm not looking.

If you don't mind used, I suggest you look for one of the older, US made Unisaws. They are a solid machine. You can add an aftermarket fence, riving blade, blade guard, etc.... That's what I did, and it's not all that scary to operate. I am extremely careful though. I make sure my mind is in the right place before I hit that power button. Stop - think - grab the safety glasses - go to work. But I do that with all my power tools. Spinning/rotating things designed to cut wood or metal don't discriminate against, or for, human tissue.

I also might add that I use my plainer and joiner almost every single time I make something. I buy S2S hardwood to save some time, but almost always end up re-machining it anyway. The plainer and joiner make projects sooo much more enjoyable. I can't imagine not having either.

[Gordon Dale]

I grew up in a family where if we got something for nothing we still thought we’d paid too much, so I’ve spent my entire life trying to overcome the urge to cheap-out on stuff. However, as my wife pointed out, even if I paid $1500 more for a SawStop than a competitor’s saw, it doesn’t amount to much when amortized over ten or twenty years. Even if a SawStop doesn’t provide perfect protection, she’d rather I reduced the possibility of serious injury as much as possible. So when I buy a table saw (soonish), it’ll be a SawStop.

[ted davies]

It seems like the consensus is Sawstop. Having lost a finger on a table saw I can appreciate that but I still use a conventional table saw though but I am extremely careful now. I find the older table saws are way better built. I had a Unisaw and found it very light weight and flimsy compared to the original design.I currently use a General 350 made in Canada and it is a tank compared to the newer saws. I would guess the older Powermatic saws are similar.

[Scott Bernstein]

Another vote for the sawstop. Also another vote for asking an electrician to install 220V. Thirdly, another vote for being safe with all your tools; working slowly and diligently. I think working safely is an active process; think about each operation from the beginning to the end. With new techniques or operations I do not do often, and will rehearse my hand motions with the machine off...try to anticipate issues and how to avoid them. Keep your hands away from spinning blades! Whatever tools you end up with, learn proper techniques.

I started with a shop vac dust collector, bench top table saw, and the DW735 planer. I quickly added a 6" jointer, drill press, and 1.75hp SawStop 36" PCS since I did not yet have 220V outlets. Within 12 months of purchasing the 6" jointer and 1.75hp saw I had outgrown them. They both worked well, but as my projects advanced I wanted more flexibility with the type and size of lumber I wanted to use. I would frequently trip the 20A breaker on my dedicated table saw circuit, and there was always issues with burning and such. And I did use thin kerf ripping blades, which helps, but when cutting 12/4 hickory, for example, you just need lots of power. I finally called in an electrician to install a 220V outlet, which turned out to be pretty straightforward since the main breaker box is in the garage and we have lots of open circuits. I was able to add two more 220V circuits myself. My first "big" tool was a 220V 3hp Laguna Bandsaw which is a wonderful saw, I then converted my 120V sawstop to a 3hp 220V PCS by swapping out the motor (slightly more expensive than buying the 3hp version to begin with, but the company will sell you the new motor and other parts you need, plus send detailed instructions on how to do the swap). The saw upgrade was followed quickly by a new 16" jointer-planer combo. Lastly I added a 5hp cyclone. I would like to tell you that if you go ahead and splurge on big tools now you will save lots of money in the future (by not buying all the smaller tools first)...and that is definitely true. But I think it is better to invest and learn on smaller tools, working your way up the food chain to more capable tools. I think I would have been quite intimidated as a beginner by a 16" jointer or 3hp table saw.

Good luck!

Admittedly, most of the tools I now have are a luxury in a hobby shop, but hopefully I will be using these tools for decades...

[Andy D Jones]

Sorry, need to disagree with the assumption. Assume for the moment that there is a 10 to 1 non-limb-saving discharge ratio. It is very unlikely that you personally will have 10 accidental discharges. Most accidental discharges are from obvious mistakes such as running wet wood or cutting aluminum (intentionally or not). I only ever remember hearing of one person who had two of these discharges before he figured out what he was doing wrong; and I do not remember the cause off hand. In general, the brake does not just randomly fire unless the saw is broken. It means that the user did something wrong and they usually learn from that mistake. In over 10 years of saw use, I have never had a discharge, so, it does not seem to be firing randomly.

I knew a guy who owned a place where they taught woodworking classes. He said that they never had an accidental discharge, but it saved one finger over the course of a few years. He supplied the wood so they never had wet wood and were probably not trying to cut metal or performing cuts that would place metal things near the blade, but I have seen that happen (not in person, but on forums).

Sorry, been a while since I last checked in on this thread...

I never said that SS cartridges randomly fire for no reason. In all cases of which I am aware, they sensed a potentially unsafe condition. SS cannot tell what is causing their sensor to trigger (blade contact with human flesh, or some other mildly conductive material, etc.)

While you are likely correct in that the same person is not likely to falsely trigger it the same way more than once, SS still makes a profit off of the replacement cartridges that the other 9 users buy, without ever having saved injury to anyone.

I wonder what the ratio is for users who have never cut themselves on a table saw, to those who have cut themselves (or truly would have, if not for a SS)?

I would suspect it is much higher than 10:1. Probably over 1000:1. After all, lawn darts were made illegal for much higher odds than that.

And when you add up all the other machines in the shop that don't have this feature (router table/shaper, miter saws, jointers, etc.), and are probably just as likely to seriously injure you (I had a great uncle who lost most of three fingers to his jointer), just how much of our shop risk is actually avoided for the cost?

I'm sure there are many cases for which the peace of mind is well worth it. In all cases (either way), it depends on the mind.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Sorry, been a while since I last checked in on this thread...

I never said that SS cartridges randomly fire for no reason. In all cases of which I am aware, they sensed a potentially unsafe condition. SS cannot tell what is causing their sensor to trigger (blade contact with human flesh, or some other mildly conductive material, etc.)

While you are likely correct in that the same person is not likely to falsely trigger it the same way more than once, SS still makes a profit off of the replacement cartridges that the other 9 users buy, without ever having saved injury to anyone.

I wonder what the ratio is for users who have never cut themselves on a table saw, to those who have cut themselves (or truly would have, if not for a SS)?

I would suspect it is much higher than 10:1. Probably over 1000:1. After all, lawn darts were made illegal for much higher odds than that.

And when you add up all the other machines in the shop that don't have this feature (router table/shaper, miter saws, jointers, etc.), and are probably just as likely to seriously injure you (I had a great uncle who lost most of three fingers to his jointer), just how much of our shop risk is actually avoided for the cost?

I'm sure there are many cases for which the peace of mind is well worth it. In all cases (either way), it depends on the mind.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

No worries Andy :D

I think that we are in agreement that most discharges are not related to saving a finger. I was reacting to what I thought that you were implying (which might not be correct). I thought you were stating that a single individual would likely have numerous false triggers (ie, not a finger) before they had a digit saving trigger. Your current statement seems to be a cumulative thing not for a specific individual!

For sure they make money on those cartridges. I think that Bosch developed a system with a different kind of brake that was good for like three discharges and was less likely to destroy the blade. I also think that SawStop was able to shut them down based on an overly broad patent, but I surely did not spend time looking into it. It might have used the same sensing technology, but I don't really know. If the time limit is out, then Bosch should be able to re-release their saw, but again, i have no idea.

Cheers!

[Ben Helmich]

Sawstop is not too far out of line if you compare it to similar saws with similar distribution. Anything distributed by dealers like Sawstop, Powermatic, Shop Fox etc is always higher. Grizzly makes some good stuff that is much less because there is no dealer network. Direct to the customer. Last time I compared pricing the Sawstop PCS wasn't far off of a Powermatic PM1000. I've seen a lot of people say the PCS and PM100 are very comparable. But Sawstop and Powermatic are MUCH higher than a lot of saws. Did anyone mention anything about ease of riving knife and blade guard removal and installation? I've heard it's a bear on some saws.

[Zac wingert]

You will get the most saw for your money finding an old Unisaw or pm 66, or ever an old contractor saw, delta/Rockwell or even pm, jet etc.. meaning, for $100 to $1000 more saw than it sounds like you’d ever need.

or, if you have the $2/3/4K just buy the SS like all these people are saying. Really, as long as you don’t get a job site saw or similar piece of crap, you really can’t go wrong. Don’t over think it, and don’t let all these responses cause you to over think it. Really, your next project is not gonna go better or worse because you chose saw A over saw B.

[Frank Pratt]

In my sometimes not-so-humble opinion, the most important safety feature are the riving knife & blade guard. The SawStop has the best implementation of those that I've seen. It takes about 10 seconds to change add/remove them and the process is tool free. Because of that convenience they tend to get used more. The old PMs & Unisaws are great machines, but with out a good guard & riving knife, I wouldn't have one even if it was free.

Regarding the PM1000 & SawStop PCS, the 1.75 HP SawStop is quite comparable, but better quality than the PM. And PM's customer service can be very spotty.

[Geoff Brooks]

what is the reason to "upgrade" from the dewalt to the laguna? is there something the laguna will do that the dewalt won't?