Accuracy in historic pieces

[Michael J Evans]

Hi all
I'm sure some of you around here have spent time looking at antique furniture/joinery, etc. I am curious as to how accurate the Craftsman of old really were?
I know that a piece of joinery 200 years old has probably changed substantially since it was made, but realistically how accurate was the work? Do you think they worked to the same tolerances we can today, or even cared to?

Thanks
Michael

[John Keeton]

Just like today, there were varying degrees of accuracy and economics was the deciding factor. Not furniture exactly, but I was fortunate to have been able to view the extensive Joe Kindig collection of 18th century rifles shortly after his death. The craftsmanship was unbelievable. But, they ranged from utilitarian to works of art. I think you would find the same in period furniture. There were varying skill levels and the prices they could demand was reflected in the quality of build.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree. A shop owner had to be always choosing who should do what. Had to consider skill level of workers
and the sophistication and means of clients. But they would never forget "I'm the only one I trust to do this part!"

[James Pallas]

Of course they did. They invented the tools we use today. Marking gauges, dividers, rafter squares with 1/100 inch notched scales so you can set dividers with it etc. They also spent 5 to 7 years learning under a master.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Mortise and Tenon magazine had a piece discussing this issue.

[Warren Mickley]

Hi all
I'm sure some of you around here have spent time looking at antique furniture/joinery, etc. I am curious as to how accurate the Craftsman of old really were?
I know that a piece of joinery 200 years old has probably changed substantially since it was made, but realistically how accurate was the work? Do you think they worked to the same tolerances we can today, or even cared to?

This is a very complicated subject; here is one aspect.

Craftsmen in the 18th Century routinely made rub joints for edge gluing. Hot hide glue was spread over the joint and the two boards were rubbed together for a few seconds until stiff and the joint was not clamped. This technique requires the boards to mate extremely well with no light showing either at the ends or the middle. A joint that is hollow by a thousandth of an inch will show light and not work very well. See Peter Nicholson's book (1812).

I recently watched a video of David Charlesworth, "Planing a Straight Edge" from Precision Planing DVD. David uses a Lie Nielsen plane and a Starrett Straightedge. After demonstrating, he says:

So this edge is now two thousandths of an inch hollow over 20 inches long, and I consider that to be straight. I think it is a remarkable tolerance for a hand tool on timber.

It may be remarkable, but two boards like this are not going to make a rub joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqPP6-0jkws

In other aspects today's craftsmen sometimes see something on an antique and think "I would never let that go on my work." But they often have stuff on their own work which 18th century workers would not have found acceptable.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’ve had the pleasure of inspecting some 18th century work from the Philadelphia area. Very neat, tidy and with tight joinery.

[Phil Mueller]

I’m curious, Brian, if they were museum, private collection or run of the mill antique store pieces. The reason I ask, is I have a turn of the century piece and the hand cut dovetails are not exactly great. It may have been a mass produced piece, don’t know. But like today, I suspect there was a full range of quality being offered at various price points.

[James Pallas]

Dovetails are a good mechanical joint that have strength partly because of redundancy. Think about things like mortise locks, rule joints, roll tops, sliding dovetails for table legs, and not even mention musical instruments. Dovetails are a normal everyday chore not the final exam.

[Rafael Herrera]

I think you have to make a distinction between accuracy and tight/proper fitting of the assembled parts. Being able to make a cut at a given width to within one thousandth or one ten thousandth is not what makes a piece of woodwork an outstanding work.

What's outstanding is a craftsman who can, for example, produce a rub joint with no gaps with wooden planes. I have a hard time imagining that he would be preoccupied whether his piece was, say, 10" wide or 9.999" wide.

[Rafael Herrera]

Warren, Mr. Charlesworth's method sounds very simplistic and impractical for long work pieces. Are there techniques that ensure straight edges or well mated edges to do rub joints?

[Michael J Evans]

Just like today, there were varying degrees of accuracy and economics was the deciding factor. Not furniture exactly, but I was fortunate to have been able to view the extensive Joe Kindig collection of 18th century rifles shortly after his death. The craftsmanship was unbelievable. But, they ranged from utilitarian to works of art. I think you would find the same in period furniture. There were varying skill levels and the prices they could demand was reflected in the quality of build.

Hi John,
I didn't even think of that aspect, but it is so true. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Andrew Seemann]

You will probably find the best craftsmanship of yore probably equal to today's and probably the worst similar to today's worst. What would probably surprise most of us today, is the speed of the old craftsman. A guy like Warren could probably hold his own with them, but some of those old world guys could produce pieces by hand faster than a lot of us can with power tools. Much of that comes from just experience and repetition.

You figure a teenage apprentice back then probably had cut more dovetails than several of us put together. I can remember (not sure what episode) Roy Underhill talking about how people these days romanticize craftsmen from a couple hundred years ago, but he said "those people were moving!" Klaus in his dovetail video talks about how good craftsman not only do good work, but they do it with speed, saying "if you are going to make a good living at this, you can't take forever to do good work."

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m curious, Brian, if they were museum, private collection or run of the mill antique store pieces. The reason I ask, is I have a turn of the century piece and the hand cut dovetails are not exactly great. It may have been a mass produced piece, don’t know. But like today, I suspect there was a full range of quality being offered at various price points.

Private collections, I’m sure quality has varied.

[Michael J Evans]

This is a very complicated subject; here is one aspect.

Craftsmen in the 18th Century routinely made rub joints for edge gluing. Hot hide glue was spread over the joint and the two boards were rubbed together for a few seconds until stiff and the joint was not clamped. This technique requires the boards to mate extremely well with no light showing either at the ends or the middle. A joint that is hollow by a thousandth of an inch will show light and not work very well. See Peter Nicholson's book (1812).

I recently watched a video of David Charlesworth, "Planing a Straight Edge" from Precision Planing DVD. David uses a Lie Nielsen plane and a Starrett Straightedge. After demonstrating, he says:

So this edge is now two thousandths of an inch hollow over 20 inches long, and I consider that to be straight. I think it is a remarkable tolerance for a hand tool on timber.

It may be remarkable, but two boards like this are not going to make a rub joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqPP6-0jkws

In other aspects today's craftsmen sometimes see something on an antique and think "I would never let that go on my work." But they often have stuff on their own work which 18th century workers would not have found acceptable.

This probably is a dumb question, but in the rub joint, would both pieces have been clamped together in a vice and planed together as to cancel out an errors. Or does that only work for the squaring of it and not the lengthwise edge?

[Michael J Evans]

Of course they did. They invented the tools we use today. Marking gauges, dividers, rafter squares with 1/100 inch notched scales so you can set dividers with it etc. They also spent 5 to 7 years learning under a master.

I understand they invented the tools, but in my mind that doesn't mean the tools are as precision made as today. Were wood planes milled to the same precision specs as say a lie-nielsen or veritas?

Henry Ford invented the model-T..... Its no where near the same precision machine as a Ferrari. Just because someone in time invented something, it doesn't mean the original person / tool is as good / capable of the precision of today.

[Michael J Evans]

And to follow up on that. I understand in hand tool woodworking its the craftsman and not the tools.

[Jim Matthews]

This probably is a dumb question, but in the rub joint, would both pieces have been clamped together in a vice and planed together as to cancel out an errors. Or does that only work for the squaring of it and not the lengthwise edge?
I use match planing as you describe for long rub joints.

I typically square both boards, first (to the limits of my ability) and then "fold" them together before taking a pass or two.

I suppose if you're proficient at squaring an edge, it's not necessary - but I take a few minutes to get the better fit.

Verification with a light source is recommended.

FYI - I was taught to "spring" longer boards (more than 18") so the ends of each board touch first.

In my opinion, rub joints are best for very thin materials or pieces that aren't very wide, where the weight of the piece will distort the joint as it cures.

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, Mr. Charlesworth's method sounds very simplistic and impractical for long work pieces. Are there techniques that ensure straight edges or well mated edges to do rub joints?

Yes, the method suggested will make even more of a hollow on longer joints.

I think that a lot of people would like a flow chart for this task. Follow these steps to ensure flatness. A better approach is to test with straight edge and plane the high spots only, whether they be at the ends, or somewhere in the middle. For truing a board, we flatten a face and use a square to ensure squareness for the edge. For making a joint, however it is more accurate to use winding sticks on the edge to ensure flatness. And in the end, with one board still in the vise, the mating board is laid on top to see if it mates. We can look for light along the joint, rock it to see if there is a slight wind and also swivel the board to see if it is humped in the middle or tight at the ends.

I once did some research on spring joints. It appears that they were first used on machine made joints in the late 19th century. I read an explanation written at that time, but I did not have enough experience with a machine jointer to understand the problem they were trying to correct.

Nicholson (1812) explains the technique of match planing when talking about making winding sticks and straightedges, but says this technique was not used for making edge joints. In those days joints were made before flattening the face sides so fastening them in the vise face to face was not so practical. For hand work, I recommend making the joint before planing a face side.

And one more thing. There was an article about making Starrett squares about 30 years ago. For their finest squares they had a man sitting in a darkened area with one light bulb across the room. He had a granite surface and some reference squares and he would hold the new square up against the reference and look at the light. Then he would make adjustments with a sandpaper file. This is precision at its finest.

[Charles Guest]

Hi all
I'm sure some of you around here have spent time looking at antique furniture/joinery, etc. I am curious as to how accurate the Craftsman of old really were?
I know that a piece of joinery 200 years old has probably changed substantially since it was made, but realistically how accurate was the work? Do you think they worked to the same tolerances we can today, or even cared to?

Thanks
Michael

Watch this four part series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk&t=52s

[Michael J Evans]

Watch this four part series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk&t=52s

Charles,
Thank you for sharing that. The work is truly inspiring.

[Rob Luter]

Watch this four part series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk&t=52s

just watched them. Thanks for the link.

[Mike Henderson]

I’m curious, Brian, if they were museum, private collection or run of the mill antique store pieces. The reason I ask, is I have a turn of the century piece and the hand cut dovetails are not exactly great. It may have been a mass produced piece, don’t know. But like today, I suspect there was a full range of quality being offered at various price points.

After about 1850 (maybe earlier) most furniture was factory made, meaning made using power tools. To get hand made furniture you have to go back to maybe 1820 or earlier. Are you sure those are hand cut dovetails? Was it a commercial piece or a commissioned piece?

Mike

[Rob Luter]

My favorite historic pieces are from around the turn of the century, so most of the joinery was machine made. I did see a few hand made pieces in a museum in Newport, RI a couple hears ago. They were masterworks. I asked a docent to open a drawer for me so I could see the dovetails. The spacing and sizing was not perfectly uniform, but the fit between pins and tails was very precise. In my mind this spoke to a skilled craftsman freehanding the position and size of tails and transferring them to the pin board very accurately.

[Jim Matthews]

Let us not forget Chippendale employed hundreds who worked for very little pay, to escape brutal farm labor.

Emulating this degree of refinement, working solo, is an endeavor that will consume *all* resources, at the expense of everything thing else.

[Warren Mickley]

Let us not forget Chippendale employed hundreds who worked for very little pay, to escape brutal farm labor.

I suspect that journeyman cabinetmakers in London at that time were paid better than in America today. A cabinetmaker could buy six or eight hand forged chisels for a day's pay. Just try to buy a hand forged chisel today.

[Jim Matthews]

I suspect that journeyman cabinetmakers in London at that time were paid better than in America today. A cabinetmaker could buy six or eight hand forged chisels for a day's pay. Just try to buy a hand forged chisel today.
Let's break that down, shall we?

How many forges were running, back in Chippendale's heyday? You're inferring that those makers commanded similar pricing to today's makers.

Do tell.

Hitchens' razor applies

[Robert Engel]

Having visited Savannah, GA, Charleston, SC and Williamsburg, VA many times, and that we like to stay in historic B&B's I've looked at a lot of antique furniture. I've concluded what you see in museums is not the way a lot of furniture was built.

I've seen lots of really sloppy dovetail drawers behind a gorgeously carved or veneered drawer fronts. I've seen dovetails actually nailed through the tails. Maybe a fix or maybe made that way?

Pieces put together with no regard for wood movement, and big cracks in side panels and tops.

I've also seen a lot of stuff simply nailed together. I've seen quite a few table or dresser tops nailed on with cut nails, so I know its original.

So my point is, there were all calibers of craftsman even back then, but we tend to think of them all as "masters".

That said, for me, its the design of the furniture that is so endearing, and the craftsmanship is up to the builder.

[mike stenson]

My mother had a thing for old furniture. Growing up in Europe meant that these items were plentiful (it also shifts the value of the term 'old', not much is really old in the US), and because the cachet of 'antique furniture' hadn't hit yet, they were reasonably priced. I saw all manner of quality, both in the house and while being dragged to go look at potential purchases. I suspect it was in line with what was paid. In pieces that were 'middle of the road' it was pretty obviously visible joinery and surfaces that were paid attention to only. Some pieces were certainly utilitarian, in these joinery was gapped but remained pretty stout (let's keep in mind that we're seeing survivors only). The take away? There's always been a wide assortment of pricing for goods and services, the more you're willing to pay the better the quality (as the more the time spent on it is worth).

But this post is about accuracy, which is all about relative fit. People have been scribing and using knife lines for centuries and measuring just induces errors. Besides, this isn't metal, where the tolerances of the available tools has continually improved.

[Charles Guest]

Charles,
Thank you for sharing that. The work is truly inspiring.

It is indeed, and extremely accurate as well.

[Mike Henderson]

Hitchens' razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor) applies

Also Russell's Teapot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot).

Mike

[James Pallas]

I enjoy these posts. Two methods of work that are very different. Each trying to match the other. The hand tool worker takes a saw and a chisel and cuts a dovetail. The machine worker takes a machine and tries to match what the hand tool worker does. Just how many types of dovetail set ups have been invented and there is always a new and better one. Now the hand tool worker tries to match the sharp edges and exact spacing of machine work. How many dovetail markers and guides have been produced. Same things go for all types of woodworking. Super Surfacers trying to match a hand planed surface and various types of irons for hand planes to produce machine work. All very strange to me, one trying to replicate the other. Two very different methods, both good, trying to look like each other.

[Phil Mueller]

Mike, they appear hand cut. Perhaps the piece is older. After another look, they are better than I remember. Both the front and back of the drawers are dovetailed.

434791 434792

[Warren Mickley]

Let's break that down, shall we?

How many forges were running, back in Chippendale's heyday? You're inferring that those makers commanded similar pricing to today's makers.

Do tell.

Hitchens' razor applies

How many forges were running in the 18th century? If you have done historical research you will know that this is not something that is easy to ascertain. If you want to make a point about the number of forges, the burden of proof is yours; I did not talk about forges.

If you are interested in wages and the cost of chisels, works by Charlie Hummel and Jane Rees are a good place to start.

[Jim Matthews]

How many forges were running in the 18th century? If you have done historical research you will know that this is not something that is easy to ascertain. If you want to make a point about the number of forges, the burden of proof is yours; I did not talk about forges.

See: Burden of Proof fallacy

You staked *your* claim on a metric that can't be tested.

You inferred that the few remaining smiths, today, charge similar rates to toolmakers of Chippendale's day.

It's a convenience to omit details which counter your assertion.

[steven c newman]

Yeah....I can see where all of the above responses are REALLY helping the original question....Maybe two should conduct a private message duel?

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, they appear hand cut. Perhaps the piece is older. After another look, they are better than I remember. Both the front and back of the drawers are dovetailed.

434791 434792

Definitely looks hand cut.

Mike

[Michael J Evans]

Yeah....I can see where all of the above responses are REALLY helping the original question....Maybe two should conduct a private message duel?

Thanks for that steven. Really made me laugh out load. Good one 👍

[Mel Fulks]

Phil, show us the drawer front. And the brasses or knobs.

[Phil Mueller]

Mel, I’m away until Sunday. Will post a pic when I get back.

[Jim Koepke]

My favorite historic pieces are from around the turn of the century, so most of the joinery was machine made. I did see a few hand made pieces in a museum in Newport, RI a couple hears ago. They were masterworks. I asked a docent to open a drawer for me so I could see the dovetails. The spacing and sizing was not perfectly uniform, but the fit between pins and tails was very precise. In my mind this spoke to a skilled craftsman freehanding the position and size of tails and transferring them to the pin board very accurately.

If a craftsman was being paid by pieces made, it is likely those who could make dovetailed drawers without having to mark them first could turn out an extra drawer or two each day.

Starting in about 1870 the Knapp joint or pin & cove joint was used in factory made furniture until the late 1890s. This is when practical machine made dovetails started to take prominence in factory made furniture. There may have been some machine made dovetails before 1870, but not common due to many factors.

https://www.harpgallery.com/library/dovetails.htm

jtk

[steven c newman]

Ever wonder what happened to all the furniture made by all the Village Joiners/Carpenters back then? Maybe the only ones left for us to view and critique today, were done to a higher standard ( and price, IF they could pry the coin from the client...) and the cheap stuff just didn't last more than one household? Rather doubt a Newport Kneehole desk would have been carried in the back of a wagon going to the Northwest Territories.....or even on a Keel Boat down to the Ohio Territory .

So, maybe what we are able to look at today, was made to a higher standard then what the average Joe log cabin builder could afford.....as he had more important issues to deal with....like keeping the hair ON his head. Back when a Joiner built houses during the summer, and items for inside that house during the winter.....with his house being the last in line, usually....

[Phil Mueller]

Mel, here’s a picture of the piece and a close up of the drawer pulls. It’s been in need of some minor restoration, but it’s just one of those projects I keep putting off. Over the years, it’s been used for all sorts of things, including an aquarium stand. I picked it up from an antique store decades ago for about $50 bucks if I recall correctly.

435015 435018

[Mel Fulks]

Phil, I think that looks like a Beidermier piece 1830-1840.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks Mel. Years ago, prior to the internet, a college professor and I tried to ID it from a stack of books he had. Never could nail it down. Sort of lost hope in figuring it out. You’ve piqued my interest again. Definitely some design similarities to your suggestion. Wish I could find a closer match. In all my searching, I can’t find a single identifying mark on the piece. May post it on an antique forum and see what comes up. Appreciate your interest and input!

[Mel Fulks]

Phil, that movement was one of those break-away from the old stuff things. Since it was short lived there are a lot of
new ideas that didn't catch on. No one gets to be avant guard by "going along with the crowd". Much different from signature features of Sheraton and Hepplewhite stuff based on
Roman stuff ...not individuality. I just found an old CNN item about Elton John wanting a Biedermier bed room.
You are most welcome ,Phil. Let us know what you find!