Dovetails

[Michael J Evans]

Hi all
I've haven't made anything yet with dovetails. The wife wants a simple box for the bathroom, so I figured now's the time to learn. Got all my tools in order, watched some YouTube and went to work. Needless to say, I now have a much greater appreciation for those of you who make beautiful dovetails. I've made 3 boxes (24 dovetails) now and they have all turned out like crap. I think I've done just about everything wrong and while frustrating it makes me want to learn all the more. I just can't get them to fit nice off the saw. I think I'm sawing to the line, square and straight, but every single time they need paring and that's really when all goes to hell. Maybe I'm transferring wrong, but I've watched Paul's and Rob's videos every single night and think I'm following the steps to a tee. When I try to saw right to the line on my pins, they're to big and then the tails fit loose / poorly. When I try to saw just a bit in, too skinny and then pairing. I've also noticed I tend to saw my tails with just the slightest round at the top. It's hard to explain via text, but when I transfer my tails I notice just the slightest round at the top. I don't see it while I'm checking my saw lines. Everything I've done so far has been In straight grain Doug fir, so the sawing hasn't been the easiest as I hit the hard spots and it really jams me up.

Anyways no real questions just a vent and to say bravo to those of you who can do it well. I really thought it looked quite easy before I tried it. Keep up the good work!

[Derek Cohen]

Michael, no doubt that you will get plenty of advice from others, and all good. Please try following the pictorial of mine below, and report back your experiences.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Softwoods like Douglas Fir are harder to work. A good medium hardwood like cherry is better to practice on, it guides the saw more accurately. Take a scrap peice, knife 20 dovetail lines and cut to the line but leave it alone. Support the angle and cut with your thumb against the saw at the top, I cut straight down on through dovetails, stopping just before the bottom. With the waste gone I slide a chisel down the line to clean the corner, it leaves a crisp corner.

[Robert Engel]

You're simply experiencing what all of us have. It takes some practice, but once you get the first one, you're off (you just have to remember what you did ha ha).

The key is accurate marking and sawing.

That said, if you would describe the tools you're using, therein might lie some of your problem. It is extremely difficult to get good results with a saw that is sub-standard.

Personally, I only scribe lines when I need extremely accurate joints. For drawers, etc, I use a pencil, flattened one side (rub on some sandpaper) and hold the flat side against the pin to mark the tail (or vice versa). Always leave the line/saw to the waste side.

Practice sawing as William said, straight lines and angles lines.

Straight grain soft wood like you're using will be harder to saw because the saw will tend to follow the grain. The key there is hold the saw with a lighter touch & use deliberate, but gentle strokes let the saw do the work.

Something like poplar or basswood milled to 1/2" are good for practicing. If your saw is leaving jagged, serrated lines, it is not suitable. You want a thin kerf rip saw, 14TPI to start.

You don't need a $250 saw. Even a $15 gent's saw can be made to work. You will need to de-set the teeth, as they are usually set way to wide, and probably will need a resharpening to a rip saw tooth configuration. Not so hard to do saw files are very cheap. De-setting can also be done by simply tapping between two hardwood blocks.

Hope this helps!

[Chris Fournier]

The learning curve is up hill again! I don't cut dovetails all the time or even much of the time. When I have a dovetail job coming up I start cutting a single dovetail first thing when I get to my shop, a little throw away practice. After a week, I'm all warmed up. I just finished a dovetail carcass in 1" hard maple and if my time was money I could not afford the cabinet! Stay on it, you'll become an expert if you want to be one!

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Michael, Cutting dovetails can be a difficult process to get right. For some it comes easy. It took me years to finally 'get it.'

Reading and watching others explain their process can be helpful. It may be one trick or just the way it is presented to make it click and come together for you.

Derek is very good at presenting his methods of working.

One of the things to help on my journey to cutting better dovetails was to use some scrap pieces of 1X4 construction fir from Home Depot or Lowes for practice. A couple tails would be marked and cut then examined to determine what corrections to my method could be done. These would the be cut off, dated and thrown in a box to start another joint. Also helpful is if you cut tails first, do a few of these practice pieces pins first. If you do pins first then make some tails first. It will not only add insights to the differences, it may reveal areas needing an improvement of method.

One solution to your rounded tops is to cut your tails and pins a touch proud. Then they can be taken down with a block plane to square the tops.

Here is a post of mine with most of my dovetailing insights > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750

Another one of my posts doesn't have as much insight into the dovetailing but it uses overly proud pins and tails > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278586 < To me they can become a decorative feature.

What may be my first well done set of dovetails is still one of my favorite pieces. It was just a small bench with a drawer being made for a sharpening station. It was too cold to use glue in the shop. It was just before Christmas so in the house was crazy. The drawer was put together with the thought that it could be glued when it got warm in the spring. That has been over six years now and it is still unglued:

434381

The tails on this drawer were also left overly proud and then rounded.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

You're simply experiencing what all of us have. It takes some practice, but once you get the first one, you're off (you just have to remember what you did ha ha).

The key is accurate marking and sawing.

That said, if you would describe the tools you're using, therein might lie some of your problem. It is extremely difficult to get good results with a saw that is sub-standard.

Personally, I only scribe lines when I need extremely accurate joints. For drawers, etc, I use a pencil, flattened one side (rub on some sandpaper) and hold the flat side against the pin to mark the tail (or vice versa). Always leave the line/saw to the waste side.

Practice sawing as William said, straight lines and angles lines.

Straight grain soft wood like you're using will be harder to saw because the saw will tend to follow the grain. The key there is hold the saw with a lighter touch & use deliberate, but gentle strokes let the saw do the work.

Something like poplar or basswood milled to 1/2" are good for practicing. If your saw is leaving jagged, serrated lines, it is not suitable. You want a thin kerf rip saw, 14TPI to start.

You don't need a $250 saw. Even a $15 gent's saw can be made to work. You will need to de-set the teeth, as they are usually set way to wide, and probably will need a resharpening to a rip saw tooth configuration. Not so hard to do saw files are very cheap. De-setting can also be done by simply tapping between two hardwood blocks.

Hope this helps!


Robert thanks for the reply. It is definitely not the equipment in this case, I actually went and bought my first "NEW" saw, which is a veritas carcass rip, I also have my great grandpa's old disston dovetail saw, that I have sharpened. I use veritas Dovetail saddle for the marking portion and have tried both pencil and knife. I've learned like Paul states in his video that knife marks on the softwood endgrain isn't ideal. So I've been using the pencil since. Just like anything, I probably need a lot more practice doing it. Another problem I have with starting the cut in the end grain is those stinking (fast growth ring?) hard spots. The variation is sawing pressure from tail to tail is huge. On some I basically go as light as I possibly can and the saw still jams up. On others two or three strokes and Im down to the line.

[Michael J Evans]

The learning curve is up hill again! I don't cut dovetails all the time or even much of the time. When I have a dovetail job coming up I start cutting a single dovetail first thing when I get to my shop, a little throw away practice. After a week, I'm all warmed up. I just finished a dovetail carcass in 1" hard maple and if my time was money I could not afford the cabinet! Stay on it, you'll become an expert if you want to be one!

The one plus to all this practice is I now have some benchtop caddy boxes.

[Michael J Evans]

Hi Michael, Cutting dovetails can be a difficult process to get right. For some it comes easy. It took me years to finally 'get it.'

Reading and watching others explain their process can be helpful. It may be on trick or just the way it is presented to make it click and come together for you.

Derek is very good at presenting his methods of working.

One of the things to help on my journey to cutting better dovetails was to use some scrap pieces of 1X4 construction fir from Home Depot or Lowes for practice. A couple tails would be marked and cut then examined to determine what corrections to my method could be done. These would the be cut off, dated and thrown in a box to start another joint. Also helpful is if you cut tails first, do a few of these practice pieces pins first. If you do pins first then make some tails first. It will not only add insights to the differences, it may reveal areas needing an improvement of method.

One solution to your rounded tops is to cut your tails and pins a touch proud. Then they can be taken down with a block plane to square the tops.

Here is a post of mine with most of my dovetailing insights > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750

Another one of my posts doesn't have as much insight into the dovetailing but it uses overly proud pins and tails > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278586 < To me they can become a decorative feature.

What may be my first well done set of dovetails is still one of my favorite pieces. It was just a small bench with a drawer being made for a sharpening station. It was too cold to use glue in the shop. It was just before Christmas so in the house was crazy. The drawer was put together with the thought that it could be glued when it got warm in the spring. That has been over six years now and it is still unglued:

434381

The tails on this drawer were also left overly proud and then rounded.

jtk

Jim, Do you think I could be getting the rounding because I start the saw off, dead level? What I mean is I hold the spine straight up and down till I get my square line started and then tilt the saw once that square line has been established.

The most frustrating part to me about this all is the chisel work. I think I cut a good tail/s, get all excited that its going to turn out good, saw pins, spend all that time chiseling and then crappy fit.

[Prashun Patel]

Everyone who keeps at this long enough will become good at it. It is remarkably attainable.

Be patient with yourself. IMHO, practice sawing accurately and straight first. I would make a bunch of half laps because they require you to cut straight and do not require paring.

Next you need to accurately mark the pins. Derek has lots of tricks for that. But start with wider pins so you can knife them well.

Last you need to be able to scribe and pare to the base line properly, without moving it back.

Just practice; your 4th will be way better than your 1st if u are patient.

[Michael J Evans]

Another thing I've learned, that the knife wall is extremely fragile. It might be because its douglas fir, but it seems like no matter how careful I am, I bruise or move that wall every single time.

[Mike Henderson]

Make your cuts a bit off the line, into the waste area. Then use a chisel to pare back to the line.

After you get good at sawing you will be able to get a good fit off the saw. There's a bunch of "hints" that I could give you but it's difficult to teach remotely. Take a look at one of my tutorials here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm), here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm), here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/FullBlindDovetail.htm), and here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/SecretDovetail.htm).

Mike

[Brandon Speaks]

Robert thanks for the reply. It is definitely not the equipment in this case, I actually went and bought my first "NEW" saw, which is a veritas carcass rip, I also have my great grandpa's old disston dovetail saw, that I have sharpened. I use veritas Dovetail saddle for the marking portion and have tried both pencil and knife. I've learned like Paul states in his video that knife marks on the softwood endgrain isn't ideal. So I've been using the pencil since. Just like anything, I probably need a lot more practice doing it. Another problem I have with starting the cut in the end grain is those stinking (fast growth ring?) hard spots. The variation is sawing pressure from tail to tail is huge. On some I basically go as light as I possibly can and the saw still jams up. On others two or three strokes and Im down to the line.

I first tried with the carcass rip and had a lot of trouble with them, difficulty starting the cut right was part of it and it also did not steer very well and I often overcut the line. It is a 12 TPI with 10 degree rake compared to the DT saw which is 14 TPI with 14 degree rake which makes starting cuts much easier. I had a better time using that saw, though someone skilled could likely use either just fine. Could also have been my specific saw, I have been meaning to sharpen it and see if that makes a difference.

While most people cut tails first I found I was significantly more successful cutting pins first, no idea why just worked better for me.

When it really stated clicking though was when I got my knew concepts fret saw, I think largely because it made it faster so I could do more practice in less time. I still am no expert but thats how I got from throw away pieces to something at least approaching acceptable. Oh and also practice on shallow boxes with only one tail and 2 pins, takes more variables out of fitting and lets you see your mistakes more clearly .

[Tom M King]

I could never do as good of a job with a marking knife, as I can with a sharp no. 4 pencil. A good no. 4 pencil line can be as small as any scribed line. You have to either leave the line, or take the line. I could never exactly get right with leaving a scribed line. Here is another case, like I mentioned recently about sharpening saws, where being able to see what you are doing is most important. I've been blessed with good eyesight (so far, knock on wood), but I still need good lighting. It's the same reason Derek uses the blue tape-to be able to see Exactly where. I always saw to the line's edge-either edge as required, but it's absolutely mandatory that I have a good view of that line's edge.

[Michael Fross]

All good advice. Everyone learns differently. What turned my dovetails around was taking a dovetail class with Rob Cosman. He has a very scientific approach which registered with me. I’m sure he has a lot of videos on YouTube which shows his methods. Just a suggestion if you have not already seen them.

Michael

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, Do you think I could be getting the rounding because I start the saw off, dead level? What I mean is I hold the spine straight up and down till I get my square line started and then tilt the saw once that square line has been established.

That does explain why the top of the tail isn't sharp. One part of using the saw that took me a long time to learn is using the horns. The heel of your hand can press down on the lower horn to make the saw just kiss the wood as it is starting to cut.


The most frustrating part to me about this all is the chisel work. I think I cut a good tail/s, get all excited that its going to turn out good, saw pins, spend all that time chiseling and then crappy fit.

This was another part of the dovetail joint that took me time to learn. Which ever you do first, be it pins or tails, make sure they are as good as you can get them before marking the mate. Then no more paring on the first piece, only on the mate. Make sure the base line is clean before marking the second piece.

If your pins come up loose, you are likely sawing too close to the line. For me, the sides of sawing the tails is likely to be more off than the verticals when sawing the pins. That is why my tails are cut first. They can be squared up and then cutting the pins is easy. Do the hard part first.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

Make your cuts a bit off the line, into the waste area. Then use a chisel to pare back to the line.

After you get good at sawing you will be able to get a good fit off the saw. There's a bunch of "hints" that I could give you but it's difficult to teach remotely. Take a look at one of my tutorials here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm), here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm), here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/FullBlindDovetail.htm), and here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/SecretDovetail.htm).

Mike

I made some of my best dovetails while Mike was standing nearby telling me what to do :D.

Certainly it is an acquired skill like many things in our craft. The things that come more easily to us, we tend to take for granted. Somewhere on this forum there is a guy who does great dovetails who cannot figure out how I get a good veneer cut off the bandsaw. Don't ledt struggles with one aspect of the craft take away from the things you can do well. Check out Mike's tutorials and set aside a few chunks of time to practice on blanks that you make up for that purpose. I can get through them but, there's a lot of things I like doing a lot better :).

[Bill Carey]

Hey Michael - I cut my first DT's about 2 years ago after reading a lot, watching videos and paying attention to what Jim, Derek, Mike and all the unnamed others have posted about cutting them. All of the advice is good - try out everything and keep what works for you and leave the rest. Blue tape or no blue tape. Pins first or tails first. Leave the lines or cut the lines. Pencil or knife. Technique and process can be learned cheaply just by trying - cut, fit, repeat. Tools on the other hand are different because of the ducats involved. I started with a cheap pull saw and my old construction chisels. Then a Veritas dovetail saw, and finally a Bad Axe hybrid that I love. Narex chisels came first, then a couple of Ashley Isles. A used shoulder plane, then another and finally the Veritas medium plane. And through out this process, I didn't add any tools until I knew, by making dovetails, what it was that I wanted to compliment the way I make them. I absolutely love using the Narex skewed paring chisels. But at the beginning I had no idea about them. So practice, practice, practice. Make lots of cuts because muscle memory is your friend. And it's fun - if I have nothing else to do I might just cut DT's for the hell of it. Being able to press them together "off the saw" is pretty cool.

Enjoy.

[Scott Winners]

Put the Doug Fir aside. Go get some cheap poplar at the BORG. DF is difficult to work because the spring growth is so much harder- stiffer- stringyer than the summer growth.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I cut my first dovetails in March at the Homestead Heritage school in Waco, Texas, which uses the Paul Sellers method. No wonder, because he actually moved there and taught classes for a while.

Start with sharp tools. We practiced for a half day just sawing to the line, the number one rule was leave the line. Right up to the line, but not on it, nor over it. We must have sawed 50 boards. We were taught to make a knife wall on any cut, including a saw cut, so the saw or chisel does not jump out. Then chisel out the rest. We did not use fret saws. We practiced in 1/2" pine, and once we got it (like Day 2), we moved on to Cherry. The pins were transcribed from the tails, using a sharp knife held at an angle for precision.

We had a class of 8 and all of us were complete idiots, and by Day 2 we were cutting pretty good dovetails. No fret saw, no blue tape. Just a saw, a knife, 2 chisels, and a sharp .5mm pencil.

When I got back, I watched a video by Paul Sellers, and it reinforced what we learned.

You might want to consider an in person class or check out a couple of Paul Sellers' videos.

[Mike Kreinhop]

What turned my dovetails around was taking a dovetail class with Rob Cosman.


You might want to consider an in person class or check out a couple of Paul Sellers' videos.

Great advice, and it worked for me! My first attempt at dovetails was a disaster. My second, third, and fourth attempts were just as bad, and I was confident it wasn't the tools, it was my poor technique. I watched hours of videos, but still couldn't make even a mediocre dovetail joint. All I succeeded in doing was turning sections of maple and walnut into useless smaller chunks of wood as I cut off the hideous bits and started over.

I was about to give up on hand-cut dovetails and then I attended a one-week dovetailing course taught by David Charlesworth in his shop. Money well spent! I was fortunate to be his only student for the week, so I had dedicated one-on-one instruction. I still made plenty of mistakes along the way, but the critique and correction was immediate and effective.

I still have a long way to go before I can whip out dovetails as quickly and accurate as others here, but I am confident with my new skills. If you can arrange to attend a course in your area, you will likely not be disappointed.

[Charles Guest]

Mark the second half of the joint with a very fine scratch awl and leave the mark but no more when you saw out that half of the joint. Knifing too deeply will leave a mark the saw falls into and can leave the joint cut too lean. You can compensate for this by jogging the tail board slightly past the end of the pin board when marking out, but that's not a refinement you should attempt when starting out. Deeply knifed lines or deep awl marks are no better and in some ways worse than fat pencil marks.

Tails first is typically easier to learn, but I don't want to start that debate. Mark tails with a fine, hard pencil and saw to the pencil marks all the way around leaving the marks. If you see the marks on one face of the board, but they're gone on the other, or there's white space between the pencil marks and sawn edges on the other side, then you haven't sawn square to the face and you'll end up with a poorly fitting joint and a construction that will go up with twist. It's fine to saw the tails in from both sides at first (pins too for that matter), whatever it takes to see the marks you're sawing to. Get some well made joints under your belt before you start worrying about speed and all the rest.

The ultimate test is four boards dovetailed together that sit perfectly flat on a very flat surface. They can fit well, but still have enough twist to make for a long day if you're building drawers or something that has to fit inside something else.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The key is accurate marking and sawing.


I was told to practice, so I did.... I took a board and marked a series of lines down the board. Start at 1/4" or so apart, get a feel for it and maybe you want them further apart, or, more likely, closer together.... Next, practice sawing three ways.



To the left of the line, directly next to the line.
To the right of the line, directly next to the line.
Split the line.


This is skill is required to cut to your marked lines and is essential to being able to cut your nice dovetails.

[Rick Erickson]

All good advice. Everyone learns differently. What turned my dovetails around was taking a dovetail class with Rob Cosman. He has a very scientific approach which registered with me. I’m sure he has a lot of videos on YouTube which shows his methods. Just a suggestion if you have not already seen them.

Michael

Yep - same here. Getting back into woodworking - it's been a number of years. If he comes close to your town - jump on it. Unfortunately I moved to a town he doesn't frequent often if at all. YT is the next best thing. Just finished reading Derek's post. You can't go wrong with that.

[Edwin Santos]

I was told to practice, so I did.... I took a board and marked a series of lines down the board. Start at 1/4" or so apart, get a feel for it and maybe you want them further apart, or, more likely, closer together.... Next, practice sawing three ways.



To the left of the line, directly next to the line.
To the right of the line, directly next to the line.
Split the line.


This is skill is required to cut to your marked lines and is essential to being able to cut your nice dovetails.

Just to add on to your excellent advice - a very good woodworker once told me that every type of athlete will warm up before competing, but for some reason the thought never crosses most woodworkers' minds. So upon starting out the day in the shop when working with hand tools, he recommended a quick 5 minute warm up sawing exercise doing pretty much what you describe, just to get your muscle memory and coordination into the game. Both the novice and the most experienced master woodworker will benefit from a warm up.
Edwin

[James Pallas]

Michael you are getting lots of good advice. Doug fir and some pines can be difficult to learn with. Hard woods will teach you more. I have found this to be true, a finer toothed saw is better for soft wood in general. The coarser the teeth the more it tears at the start of the cut. The saw you are using will work better in hardwood. As for YT videos, almost all of them are made using hardwood pins and pine tails. The pine is compressive and will conform if cut a little tight for show purposes. Practice on hardwood if you can with cleaner cuts you will be able to see your lines before and after the cut. 24 tails are not many to have cut, that’s 1 dresser drawer. Don’t get discouraged and learn how to fix some of those loose tails along the way. You will improve with practice.

[Bill Carey]

And here's why you should practice and pay attention:

434461 434462 434463

Yep - that's the front of the drawer for one of the tables I'm making. I hunted thru 100's ( maybe thousands) of BF for 2 pieces that matched and had fleck that built up to the top center of the drawer. And then I put scribe lines on one. Someone let the Dumb-ass loose in my shop again! Oh well - the #4 is fun too.

[Bob Jones 5443]

And here's why you should practice and pay attention:

434461 434462 434463

Yep - that's the front of the drawer for one of the tables I'm making. I hunted thru 100's ( maybe thousands) of BF for 2 pieces that matched and had fleck that built up to the top center of the drawer. And then I put scribe lines on one. Someone let the Dumb-ass loose in my shop again! Oh well - the #4 is fun too.

Bill, the dovetail seems to be a zen practice in visual-spatial relationships, with a drop of personal introspection thrown in. Kind of like golf or pool. I hope you got a good solid belly laugh when you saw that gauge line on the outside of the drawer front!

[steven c newman]

Done in 3/16" thick Pine
434477
434478
434479434480
434481

[David Eisenhauer]

Nice design element Bill.

[Bill Carey]

Bill, the dovetail seems to be a zen practice in visual-spatial relationships, with a drop of personal introspection thrown in. Kind of like golf or pool. I hope you got a good solid belly laugh when you saw that gauge line on the outside of the drawer front!


I did indeed find amusement in it. Sometimes in my shop you'll not hear a sound for a couple of hours, and then you'll hear a soft "dumb ass". And then back to quiet.

[Michael J Evans]

And here's why you should practice and pay attention:

434461 434462 434463

Yep - that's the front of the drawer for one of the tables I'm making. I hunted thru 100's ( maybe thousands) of BF for 2 pieces that matched and had fleck that built up to the top center of the drawer. And then I put scribe lines on one. Someone let the Dumb-ass loose in my shop again! Oh well - the #4 is fun too.

Bill
I think on all these practice boxes I have been doing I have accidentally made a marking gauge line under the first tail. For some reason it's the first spot my marking gauge lands. After the first one, I realize it and then mark the correct spots. (Least I haven't chisled away a tail yet)

[Michael J Evans]

I just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice and replies. I started another box in doug fir tonight, just because that's what I have on hand. But there is a local material recycling place, that I'll browse tomorrow for some hardwood scrap pieces. Until this thread, I never realized softwoods can be more difficult to work in certain scenarios. I always assumed softwood was easier because it's soft.

[Michael J Evans]

One more thing that's been on my mind. For this particular box I was going to just glue on a bottom. But since I don't have a combo or plough plane, what is the best was to inlet a a groove for the bottom? I would just assume marking gauge line, saw down and then a homemade router plane?

[Jim Matthews]

The bottom needs only to be flat on both mating faces for the glue to be sufficient. So long as you don't immerse it in the bathtub, Titebond will hold.

Have a browse of Derek Cohen's invaluable (and free) blog for confirmation of your approach with the router.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/

[Warren Mickley]

One more thing that's been on my mind. For this particular box I was going to just glue on a bottom. But since I don't have a combo or plough plane, what is the best was to inlet a a groove for the bottom? I would just assume marking gauge line, saw down and then a homemade router plane?

The best way to make a groove is with a plough plane. As I mentioned in another thread on Wednesday, a plough plane is much more valuable for cabinetmaking than a router plane.

A plough plane is also much easier to make than a router plane. I made a plough many years ago when I had one saw, two chisels, one plane, and no power tools. Here is a picture from Roubo:

434493

It does not need to be this fancy. Here is one I made when I was young:
434494

P. S. Although we usually use grooves for drawer bottoms, we usually nail on a bottom for boxes. One of the reasons is that a groove all the way around interferes with the dovetails. If the box is rather small gluing is all right, but otherwise the crossgrain construction favors nailing which is somewhat more forgiving.

[Jim Koepke]

Until this thread, I never realized softwoods can be more difficult to work in certain scenarios. I always assumed softwood was easier because it's soft.

In some areas with wide swings in the humidity some softwoods like fir and pine can move a lot from day to day. This used to drive me crazy when cutting joinery.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

As you are working on the dovetails, go ahead and look up "drawer slips" while you are resting (as my grandfather used to say) for another way to attach drawer bottoms. It's a nice way to put a bottom in. Derek may have some info on slips on his website.

[Mike Henderson]

P. S. Although we usually use grooves for drawer bottoms, we usually nail on a bottom for boxes. One of the reasons is that a groove all the way around interferes with the dovetails. If the box is rather small gluing is all right, but otherwise the crossgrain construction favors nailing which is somewhat more forgiving.

There's a problem with setting in a bottom in a drawer or box when you use dovetails to attach the sides together. Usually you cut your grooves and then do your dovetails but you can encounter the problem no matter what your sequence.

The problem is that if one side "slips" up or down when you're making your dovetails the grooves won't line up and you can't put your bottom in. To solve that problem, I make the dovetail box first and then cut the groove on my router table with a slot cutting bit.

Choose your slot cutter to match your bottom, with a bearing that provides the depth you need (maybe 1/4"). Then assemble the drawer or box (you can use tape to hold it together if the dovetails are not as tight as you'd like) and lower the box over the bit. Run the box or drawer around so that the slot cutter cuts a groove all around the inside of the box or drawer.

If the slot cutter is too narrow for the bottom, adjust the slot cutter up or down and do another cut until your slot matches the bottom.

Take the box or drawer apart and square the corners with a chisel. Put your bottom in and glue up the dovetails. Done.

The advantage of this approach is that the grooves line up because they were cut with the box assembled, and the grooves do not reach to the outside of the boards and thus don't show.

Mike

[Bill Carey]

There's a problem with setting in a bottom in a drawer or box when you use dovetails to attach the sides together. Usually you cut your grooves and then do your dovetails but you can encounter the problem no matter what your sequence.

The problem is that if one side "slips" up or down when you're making your dovetails the grooves won't line up and you can't put your bottom in. To solve that problem, I make the dovetail box first and then cut the groove on my router table with a slot cutting bit.

Choose your slot cutter to match your bottom, with a bearing that provides the depth you need (maybe 1/4"). Then assemble the drawer or box (you can use tape to hold it together if the dovetails are not as tight as you'd like) and lower the box over the bit. Run the box or drawer around so that the slot cutter cuts a groove all around the inside of the box or drawer.

If the slot cutter is too narrow for the bottom, adjust the slot cutter up or down and do another cut until your slot matches the bottom.

Take the box or drawer apart and square the corners with a chisel. Put your bottom in and glue up the dovetails. Done.

The advantage of this approach is that the grooves line up because they were cut with the box assembled, and the grooves do not reach to the outside of the boards and thus don't show.

Mike

+1 on this technique. Works great.

[Michael J Evans]

P. S. Although we usually use grooves for drawer bottoms, we usually nail on a bottom for boxes. One of the reasons is that a groove all the way around interferes with the dovetails. If the box is rather small gluing is all right, but otherwise the crossgrain construction favors nailing which is somewhat more forgiving.

Warren
Can you expand on this for me please? If I understand right, your saying just cut the bottom to the full width of the box and just use some small nails vertically into the sidewalls?

[Warren Mickley]

Warren
Can you expand on this for me please? If I understand right, your saying just cut the bottom to the full width of the box and just use some small nails vertically into the sidewalls?

Yes, that is right. Also sometimes we make the bottom slightly larger than the box and make a quarter round molding on the bottom, either the front and two sides (back flush) or molding on four sides.

Sometimes we make the whole bottom flush with the sides and then apply a small molding that covers the joint. And sometimes we make feet on the box like a miniature chest.

[Michael J Evans]

Yes, that is right. Also sometimes we make the bottom slightly larger than the box and make a quarter round molding on the bottom, either the front and two sides (back flush) or molding on four sides.

Sometimes we make the whole bottom flush with the sides and then apply a small molding that covers the joint. And sometimes we make feet on the box like a miniature chest.

Warren thanks for the clarification. I'm so new to this I would've never though about adding moulding.

[steven c newman]

434705
Bottom is glued on...
434706
A lid slides in grooves...
434707
until closed.

[matt romanowski]

It's all practice. Make up a bunch of small boards and do a dovetail joint with just a few pins in it every day. You will be amazed at how much you improve in quality and time in only a week. If you do a full 30 days, you get really good.

I was happy after about 10 days :)

[Jim Koepke]

It's all practice. Make up a bunch of small boards and do a dovetail joint with just a few pins in it every day. You will be amazed at how much you improve in quality and time in only a week. If you do a full 30 days, you get really good.

I was happy after about 10 days :)

This was my routine for a while. If my memory is correct my practice used up about 8' of 1X4 lumber. The joints were cut off about 1/2" from the joint, dated, numbered and tossed in a box after looking for ways to correct errors. This was done with scrap wood. A two foot length works well for this. My dovetails improved greatly.

Try making your dovetails both pins first and tails first. One approach may work better for you.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

Thanks again guys.
I went and got some poplar to practice on. Cutting is definitely smoother vs the fir. I've got two joints cut on my practice box so far and they're better, but I went much slower. I also focused on my paring, I took very shallow chisel strokes and would do Just a bit and then test fit, so on so forth. I think once I glue up the small gaps will hide themselves.

[Michael J Evans]

Well gents, no pictures yet, but I finished the box frame (there's another name for this right) I had a little gap here or there on each. but overall I think they came out okay. I'm still going to finish and put in the house. I believe that having to see it daily will be a good reminder to be patient and work with care. Once again I appreciate the all the advice.