Good enough vs overkill

[Mark Hennebury]

Both terms are misnomers as "Good enough" seldom is, and "Overkill" never killed anyone.

In wooodworking, as in most things in life, the world is divided into two kinds of people; Those whom adhere to the "Good enough" philosophy and those how fall into the "Overkill" camp.

Which side you belong to determines pretty much everything that you do in your woodworking and maybe even how you go about life in general.

When working from the good enough mindset, you carefully calculate the expected load, factor in "all" of the variables and design and build to minimize use of materials, labor and cost.

Oops...

https://youtu.be/KGVa7i1V0uk

Sadly i couldn't find a video of the old bridge below, apparently no one makes videos of old bridges, probably because it would be boring as the don't really do much, not like the modern ones.

When working from the "Overkill" mindset.

Time, materials and cost are not a factor. It's simply a matter of how good can this be built. Sadly to me, that is an old fashioned concept.


The Roman bridge of Córdoba is a bridge originally built in the early 1st century BC across the Guadalquivir river, perhaps replacing a previous wooden one. The bridge has been reconstructed at various times since and most of the present structure dates from the Moorish reconstruction in the 8th century.

434085

The Roman arch was the foundation of Rome's architectural mastery and massive expanse of building projects across the ancient world. It allowed the Romans to make bigger buildings, longer roads, and better aqueducts. The Roman arch is the ancestor of modern architecture

(Apparently not everyone knows this.)

Which camp are you in and why?

[Kevin Jenness]

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm pretty meticulous, but without an unlimited budget you can't ignore time, materials and cost and stay in business. "Good enough for who it's for" or "good enough for government work" leads down the wrong path, but I figure good enough for me is ok as long as I'm really trying to hit a high standard.

I have always liked this quote from a Wooden Boat article on Bud Mcintosh, a respected New Hampshire boatbuilder who got his start during the Depression:

"About the only thing you can say about an old-timer who has survived a miserable occupation like this is that you have finally learned the balance between how good it should be and what they'll pay for, and how good it has to be before you lose your reputation."

[roger wiegand]

"Overkill" originates from the beginning of the nuclear weapon era, some say as early as 1946, the first written evidence of it is apparently in 1957, with usage peaking in the early 1980's according to the Google nGram viewer. It was invented as a technical term to describe nuclear destruction capability that went beyond complete destruction of the target. In that sense it would mean something that goes beyond complete or 100% effectiveness

[Mel Fulks]

And often the terms are mis-used to bolster the speaker's point. Some call carefully priming and painting the bottom of
newly installed expensive door "over kill". The real meaning is " we will have been paid and spent our money long
before this door starts to have open joints at the bottom from "compression ring-set".

[Mike Henderson]

Remember the definition of Quality: "Quality is what the customer says it is."

Meaning that rapid delivery may be quality for some customers. Low cost may be quality for others. Long life with minimum maintenance may be quality for someone else.

You can't impose your idea of quality on your customers. If you do, you probably won't be successful.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

I have seen many folks who are in the "just right" category, too... But in the end, it may even vary with project. There are some things I'm more meticulous with and sometimes over build and other things that get done what needs done and no more. Most projects fall in the middle, but closer to "more better" as I've gained experience.

[Lisa Starr]

When I'm measuring things, I definitely fall into the "overkill" camp. Because of the machining background, I think in thousandths instead of fractions. On the other hand, when choosing materials, I'm likely to factor cost, availability and intended purpose into my decisions.

[David L Morse]

Remember the definition of Quality: "Quality is what the customer says it is."

Meaning that rapid delivery may be quality for some customers. Low cost may be quality for others. Long life with minimum maintenance may be quality for someone else.

You can't impose your idea of quality on your customers. If you do, you probably won't be successful.

Mike

Yes. Quality is not an absolute. It means different things in different contexts.

[Mark Bolton]

Why in holy heck in this day and age does there have to be a "side you belong to". That statement in itself is utterly disgusting.

There is a good rule in business.. "perfection is the enemy of profit". It speaks clearly to the fact that those who fall into either "side", either the extreme good enough, or the extreme overkill, do one thing and one thing well... Lose.

The answer is, if you are smart, you reside right in the middle. You are smart enough to know when your being an idiot hack and doing the "good enough" and you are also smart enough to give yourself a firm, swift, hard, painful, slap across the face, when you are doing a bunch of neurotic overkill.

There has got to come a day when we as humans quit pigeon holing people into one extreme or the other because the rationality in the world, in business, in the hobby or profession, resides squarely in the middle.

[Stan Calow]

A kitchen remodeler guy I knew once told me that he hates to work on projects that were put in by a homeowner because an amateur overbuilds everything making them harder to remove and replace. Whereas a professional knows that the cabinets, counters, etc., will eventually be replaced, so makes things just strong enough to perform the task while being easy to replace.

In engineering school, a professor said that "anyone can build a bridge that will last one hundred years, but only an engineer can build a bridge that will just barely last one hundred years". Perfect materials and unlimited time and money are rarely available. There's a difference between being efficient and lazy.

[Mark Bolton]

In engineering school, a professor said that "anyone can build a bridge that will last one hundred years, but only an engineer can build a bridge that will just barely last one hundred years". Perfect materials and unlimited time and money are rarely available. There's a difference between being efficient and lazy.


Reminds me of a bridge builder quote that I have loved for years that went something like:

"The village idiot can build a bridge to carry a span, but it takes real skill to build a bridge that will "just" carry the span"

Anyone can get across a huge gap filling it in with massive stones like the Romans, doing it with the materials required and profitably, is where the skill is.

I know several building inspectors/electrical/etc.. that echo your exact statement. They know when they walk into a homeowner job they are going to find one of two outcomes, it will either be a complete and utter disaster, or it will be so overbuilt, clean, and well executed, that the individual could have hired it out 3 times and saved money.

Im not sure I know whats worse. I am currently having to painfully re-work a bunch of hack nightmare work on SO home done by someone who shall not be named, or seeing someone who insist on the justification of over-do'ing everything the put their hands on lol.

[Mark Hennebury]

The purpose of life may not be about "profitable business" to everyone.

People live their lives according to their own values.

Woodworking as not all about making money.
Building bridges has a whole lot of oversight, codes, specifications and inspections, furniture making has none, Customers don't know or spec tolerance or joinery etc. completely up to the individual maker to decide "quality"
Guided by your own conscience and values.

Perfection may be the enemy of profit, but you had better hope that some people care about it, your surgeon maybe.

Many of the good things in life have been bought to us by people that were driven by passion, people who have pushed ahead, just because.... That's why we have competitions, games, sports.... to see how far we can go, and motivate others to push on to greater heights.
Seeing great woodwork motivates others to do better, that's what's so great about having the internet available, and forums like this. seeing great work provides inspiration.

I posted the images as an example of the extremes, most answers have been about how people decide when and at what level to work at and why. There are reasons to work all across the range and it is an interesting topic of discussion to me.

Your idea of smart may work for you, but don't force it on me.







Why in holy heck in this day and age does there have to be a "side you belong to". That statement in itself is utterly disgusting.

There is a good rule in business.. "perfection is the enemy of profit". It speaks clearly to the fact that those who fall into either "side", either the extreme good enough, or the extreme overkill, do one thing and one thing well... Lose.

The answer is, if you are smart, you reside right in the middle. You are smart enough to know when your being an idiot hack and doing the "good enough" and you are also smart enough to give yourself a firm, swift, hard, painful, slap across the face, when you are doing a bunch of neurotic overkill.

There has got to come a day when we as humans quit pigeon holing people into one extreme or the other because the rationality in the world, in business, in the hobby or profession, resides squarely in the middle.

[Jim Dwight]

I've had to learn that tolerances need to be adjusted to the task. It does not make sense to cut drywall to 1/16 or finer dimensions. 1/4 inch is plenty good enough for most if not all cuts. But we need to be far better than that in woodworking - or at least be far more consistent than that.

The bunk bed I recently built has legs 2 3/4 square of softwood and 2x6 bed rails. I am sure that is overkill, my heaviest grandkid at the moment weighs less than 50 lbs. But they will get bigger. But still a 2x6 wasn't necessary. But I don't want to worry about the safety of my grandkids.

The only chair I have built that failed in use was built to commercial plans. I haven't seen it yet, they say a leg split. I may not have oriented the grain well or the plans may be a bit marginal. I was planning to build more of these chairs for my dining room so I need to see what went wrong. I may increase the dimensions a bit regardless.

Often my dimensions are for appearance, not stress. I have a mechanical engineering degree and can do the calculations but I do not. For one thing, we usually limit stress to a certain level for deflection reasons, not failure. Joists in houses are designed to limit deflection to no more than 1 in in 360 inches, for instance. There is considerable margin against fracture. All building work is done that way - large margins of safety. Overbuilding. But airplanes cannot be designed that way. They would be too heavy to fly.

[Bill Dufour]

AFAIK All! frank loyd wright buildings have roof problems. From sagging to just leaking. There may be some of his early houses that do not have roof problems but I know at least one has had steel added to the porch overhang. To me a home should last more then 100 years without major problems. Maybe new roofing and paint. I understand that at Falling Water the plan is to leave the props in that hold it up to demonstrate that it is not as good as it looks. They also plan to leave in some of the sagging to show visitors how bad it had gotten. Kind of like not tipping the leaning tower of piza too far upright.
Bill D

https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/344/

[Mike Henderson]

Perfection may be the enemy of profit, but you had better hope that some people care about it, your surgeon maybe.



Actually, surgeons have the saying, "Perfection is the enemy of good." What they mean by that is the surgeon needs to get in, do what's necessary, and get out. Trying to be "perfect" extends the surgery and leads to worse outcomes.

Mike

[Another of my favorite medical sayings is, "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."]

[Frank Drackman]

Anything worth doing is worth over doing

[Lee Schierer]

The Project Management Triangle – Time, Quality, Cost – you can have any two. The basic premise is that there are three main factors in all decisions. You can have or control only two of them.

[Mel Fulks]

The better the project was ,the more I pushed to get stuff right. I made a few clients angry, but they all thanked me
later. Only one wrote me letter about how much my insistence improved the house. Some just sheepishly told me
I had been right. Clients would rather have a workman tell them they are making a mistake than a "friend".

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Overkill is the way to go when using materials with large variations on their fundamental properties and/or you do not have the theoretical base for appropriate calculations.

Personally I usually go nearer to "good enough" camp... with some safe factor.

[Mike Cutler]

I've spent my entire working life calibrating the systems and components that keep a nuclear reactor safe during normal operation, and in accident scenarios. Prior to that I worked on Nuclear Weapons.
Which camp would you want me to reside in? The,"Good, is good enough", or the Overkill, camp?

[Patrick Walsh]

Well I fall square in the overkill camp.

I figured out long ago that living just to survive was as sure as a death sentence for me. You think I’m kidding but I could not be more serious. Took me a good few years and failing on my face hard a number of times to figure out. Clearly I’m not so smart or I would had figured it out without falling down.

Ignoring passion and instead being persuaded by the teachings or rather misleading at least in my case by society that living for tomorrow at the expense of today makes any darn sense at all. For me at least my definition is success is contentment and happiness. And for me my vocation needs to be something I feel passionate about. Life’s to short and we spend way to much time at work for it to be any other way.

Living for tomorrow at the expense of today even in the slightest is akin to a slow suffocation for me. It robs me of any joy my soul has. Might as well just shoot me in the face if that’s what I’m gonna spend 70-100 years doing. No thank you, I’d rather have one blissful day then it all be gone. I get that’s not most but it sure is me “this perfectionist” made to want to puke at the amount of good enough in the world and I’m not just talking Woodworking. I’m talking integrity pride accountability, passing the buck..

Now that’s what I shoot for and very seldom is it realized as society has a way of strong arming the shit out you 60-70% of the time. Since I have done fine Woodworking more like 90% when I was doing residential construction the boss wins. The boss rarely has the same principles and ideas as do I for quality not to mention moral integrity and or satisfaction of ones work. The boss thinks he cares but the boss cares about numbers like I care about quality and perfection. The boss cares about a successful business like I care about each and every cut and joint of a project be perfect without exception. This is why i screw with my machines the way I do. I’m tired at the end o the day or a week of working wood but I’m still generally starving to satisfy my need for perfection. So this is where my machines come into play. I keep working at perfection my machines both calibration and fit and finish as to have everything just so best intentions to create a future for myself building things I can be proud of with machinery I take pride in.

But I won’t quite trying. I’m a young man yet at 42 and I’ll be darned if I don’t find a way to create work “whatever it may be” that is to my standard of quality as to not spend my days begrudging my reality and all that keeps me from the pursuit of blissful perfection and work I can take pride in. And to a make a living even if only to not be or homeless or starving. Anything more is just a illusion anyhow. You don’t think so I beg to differ. It’s more the life of a artist vrs company or union man.

Look at this world it’s gone freaking mad. If more could just recognize what makes them happy “maybe more important what does not” adjust accordingly and not instead bury our heads in creating misery, maybe just maybe this world would be a better place.

But instead it’s a freaking mess because people ignore intuition burry their souls in supposed “have to’s and shoulds”. Parents that never shoulda been parennts, husbands and wife’s that never shoulda been married.

Perfection is not for everyone but living without passion or bypassing it because you don’t believe it to be realistic or practical for you is a huge mistake. Just the lazy about it is a mistake. Well I consider bypassing passion humanities greatest mistake. I get not everyone’s passion is perfectionism but everyone should have passion and that passion should imop not be in the slightest motivated by money.

[Gary Ragatz]

Both terms are misnomers as "Good enough" seldom is, and "Overkill" never killed anyone.

In wooodworking, as in most things in life, the world is divided into two kinds of people; Those whom adhere to the "Good enough" philosophy and those how fall into the "Overkill" camp.

I guess I'd have to disagree with your premise. "Good enough" is, by definition good enough - the question/challenge is in determining what is "good enough." Is a bridge that lasts 50 years "good enough," or does it need to last 100 years (or more)?

If I build a coffee table out of framing lumber from HD and put it together with carriage bolts and slap a couple of coats of cheap latex paint on it, is that "good enough?" If my customer is a 19-year old college sophomore who plans to put the table in a dumpster when he graduates (and would like it to stand up to two of his roommates dancing on it in the meantime) probably, yes. If my customer is a wealthy professional living in a $2 million home, probably not.

It's a question of what the customer wants/needs/expects. And as a maker, it's up to you to determine if you can deliver that and still earn a profit. If it's not a commercial deal, then it turns into a question of what your standards as a maker are - what is "good enough" in your own eyes?

[Peter Kelly]

The Project Management Triangle – Time, Quality, Cost – you can have any two. The basic premise is that there are three main factors in all decisions. You can have or control only two of them.I’ve also seen this as Cheap / Fast / Good.
Great way of looking at things.

[Darcy Warner]

Overkill is usually a waste of customers money and my time, plus materials too.

Overkill is what caused many once great manufacturers to go out of business.

[Mark Hennebury]

If machinery manufactures became great for making great machines, then making great machines didn't kill them, a changing mentality and marketplace did.



Overkill is usually a waste of customers money and my time, plus materials too.

Overkill is what caused many once great manufacturers to go out of business.

[Darcy Warner]

If machinery manufactures became great for making great machines, then making great machines didn't kill them, a changing mentality and marketplace did.

Overkill was killed by good enough.

[Jim Koepke]

One phrase that irks me is, "close enough for government work." Close enough for the pilots and crew in military aircraft? Close enough for first responders with people's lives on the line?

One shop manager in my workplace back in the early 1970s used to always lament that there was never time to do a job right, but there was always time to do it over.

Most of my co-workers in the "good enough" crowd were often members of the LIFTNG club. (Leave It For The Next Guy) Worse was one of them who would leave machinery unrepaired and out of service. When someone else came and installed a difficult to find part he would take the part for use somewhere else and put the machine back out of service. Sometimes he would just take the part because he wanted it for his own kit.

One of my recent 15 minute projects might be seen by some as just 'good enough.' Others might look at it and see it as 'overkill.' It is a garden stool made from scrap pieces of 2X pressure treated lumber. It is a square of 2X12 with 2X4s on either end held on by deck screws. It has a center rib to prevent racking. It lifts me off the ground a little for comfort but is still low enough for digging weeds without having to bend over as much.

For a temporary construction or something that is going to be taken apart, "good enough" may be the best answer.

On another recent project a small table was wanted in the greenhouse. Some laps were cut on salvaged 2X3s. An old wood frame with slats made for use at the famers market atop saw horses was cleaned and attached to the legs with deck screws. It was a little wobbly but worked for the immediate need. A few days later a frame and shelf were made to add in. This fixed the wobbles and is now a solid potting table.

Back in my drafting days we used to joke about a common note on drawings, "cut to suite." We would often say it out loud as it was being lettered. Someone else would finish it by saying, "hammer to fit and paint to match."

jtk

[Mark Hennebury]

Trump's it every time.

The old manufacturers were put out to pasture, by the newer companies largely from Italy, building cheaper fabricated machinery, made out sheet metal instead of cast, standard off the shelf parts, lighter duty, flashy paint and lower price. With the promise that they could do the job for less, And at the same time the changing mentality of business, no longer setting up to be in business for generations, but to focus on the near future, the right now. Then of course the Italians were put out by the Chinese Undercutting them and building even cheaper stuff.


Overkill was killed by good enough.

[michael langman]

Trump's it every time.

The old manufacturers were put out to pasture, by the newer companies largely from Italy, building cheaper fabricated machinery, made out sheet metal instead of cast, standard off the shelf parts, lighter duty, flashy paint and lower price. With the promise that they could do the job for less, And at the same time the changing mentality of business, no longer setting up to be in business for generations, but to focus on the near future, the right now. Then of course the Italians were put out by the Chinese Undercutting them and building even cheaper stuff.


The Japanese auto industry in the late 60's early 70's built machining centers from weldments and ran them for 2-3 years threw them away because they were worn out, and then produced a new line of cars with new cheap machines made from weldments.

[Mark Hennebury]

Mike,

Just had surgery three months ago.

To expect 10 out of 10 every times is unrealistic. 9 out of 10 is a pretty respectable score by any standards, but i sure hope that they are trying for 10 each and every time.
No one can do more than their best, but you have to try to do your best, to do it.



Actually, surgeons have the saying, "Perfection is the enemy of good." What they mean by that is the surgeon needs to get in, do what's necessary, and get out. Trying to be "perfect" extends the surgery and leads to worse outcomes.

Mike

[Another of my favorite medical sayings is, "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."]

[Brian Holcombe]

There is often a buyer at every price point but the mistake is often in assuming how many of them are at their respective price points. IE Hofmann still exists and appears to be doing well but they made the right move in planning for a small portion of high end consumers.

Danish furniture manufactures do the same, after nearly dying off they recognized this bit of economic reality and reformed their businesses to suit luxury appear and scale.

As example, Wooden plane makers in the US have plenty of business to keep a one man shop running, but scaling it up would likely be their demise.

I would rather have excess demand and just slightly short supply of a high end product than to have excess supply of a ‘good enough’ product even if that meant making less overall.

[Brian Holcombe]

Actually, surgeons have the saying, "Perfection is the enemy of good." What they mean by that is the surgeon needs to get in, do what's necessary, and get out. Trying to be "perfect" extends the surgery and leads to worse outcomes.

Mike

[Another of my favorite medical sayings is, "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."]

I have had three operations on my lungs, the second two were performed by someone committed to perfection.

[Kev Williams]

When building things my old man was in the overkill camp. One of my fondest memories was when he started building a cabin, 24x24' basic A-frame on the side of a rather steep mountain. Many of the cabins in the area are supported with not much more than 4" steep pipe. Dad poured nine 2' diameter concrete columns for our cabin. When the inspector came to check it out, his response was priceless: "Geezus man, are you building a cabin or an overpass?"

I look at the way some things are built and wonder how it stays together. Then later find out it didn't, like the OP's video...

A little 'just to be sure' overkill is a good thing :)

[Edwin Santos]

As the story goes, after the Model T had been out for quite a few years, Henry Ford sent a team of men to scour junkyards around the country for junked Model Ts to be sent back to Dearborn, Michigan to be studied.
He wanted to see which components were failing and which were not.
Everyone assumed he was doing this for quality improvement, intending to improve the failing parts in order to extend the lifespan of the car.
In fact, what he wanted to identify was which parts were outlasting the life of the car so these parts could be de-engineered to a lower quality standard to no longer outlast the car. An example part proved to be the kingpin, which indeed was re-engineered to a lower standard.

So my question; was this a quintessential example of "good enough"?
Or was Henry Ford going "overkill" in his pursuit of perfection of efficiency?

[Jim Koepke]

As the story goes, after the Model T had been out for quite a few years, Henry Ford sent a team of men to scour junkyards around the country for junked Model Ts to be sent back to Dearborn, Michigan to be studied.
He wanted to see which components were failing and which were not.
Everyone assumed he was doing this for quality improvement, intending to improve the failing parts in order to extend the lifespan of the car.
In fact, what he wanted to identify was which parts were outlasting the life of the car so these parts could be de-engineered to a lower quality standard to no longer outlast the car. An example part proved to be the kingpin, which indeed was re-engineered to a lower standard.

So my question; was this a quintessential example of "good enough"?
Or was Henry Ford going "overkill" in his pursuit of perfection of efficiency?

So when it goes, it all goes together. Maybe that is where Found On Road Diversified was started.

jtk

[Will Blick]

I sadly fall in the overkill camp as well...
The OP only asked this as a generalized quesiton, I dont thin it related to just profits.
Sometimes, extreme precision is as easy as less precision, a good example is an Incra fence on TS. Truly amazing, when set up right, u can cut to .001" with ease.
Yes, wood moves, but thats another story... cutting to .1", that wood moves too ;)

This is part n parcel of a bigger question. What is the tolerance required? Building some work shop shelving, I cut dimensioned lumber prob. to 1/8", just not critical, the best I can get form my tape measure and sloppy pencil marks. Try that with dovetail joints.

The field of tolerance determination and tolerance stacking is a field upon itself. In a perfect world, determining the tolerance requirements of each part should dictate the tolerance you build to. In sophisticated high tech fields, this is how its done. Then during manufacturing, each part is checked against a reference to confirm it falls within the required tolerance range.

[Mark Hennebury]

I think that we have a moral obligation to do more than "good enough"


https://youtu.be/WfGMYdalClU

[Mike Henderson]

As the story goes, after the Model T had been out for quite a few years, Henry Ford sent a team of men to scour junkyards around the country for junked Model Ts to be sent back to Dearborn, Michigan to be studied.
He wanted to see which components were failing and which were not.
Everyone assumed he was doing this for quality improvement, intending to improve the failing parts in order to extend the lifespan of the car.
In fact, what he wanted to identify was which parts were outlasting the life of the car so these parts could be de-engineered to a lower quality standard to no longer outlast the car. An example part proved to be the kingpin, which indeed was re-engineered to a lower standard.

So my question; was this a quintessential example of "good enough"?
Or was Henry Ford going "overkill" in his pursuit of perfection of efficiency?

Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote about that. (http://holyjoe.org/poetry/holmes1.htm)

Mike

[Peter Stahl]

I always leaned more to the overkill side. A little extra was always my philosophy.

[Tom M King]

I never think about either. I do use the fast, cheap, good comparison, when talking to a potential client. I say they only get one with me, and it's neither fast, nor cheap. Currently not taking on any more clients for the rest of my life, as I have more of them begging for work than I can possibly ever get done.

[Wade Lippman]

As the story goes, after the Model T had been out for quite a few years, Henry Ford sent a team of men to scour junkyards around the country for junked Model Ts to be sent back to Dearborn, Michigan to be studied.
He wanted to see which components were failing and which were not.
Everyone assumed he was doing this for quality improvement, intending to improve the failing parts in order to extend the lifespan of the car.
In fact, what he wanted to identify was which parts were outlasting the life of the car so these parts could be de-engineered to a lower quality standard to no longer outlast the car. An example part proved to be the kingpin, which indeed was re-engineered to a lower standard.

So my question; was this a quintessential example of "good enough"?
Or was Henry Ford going "overkill" in his pursuit of perfection of efficiency?

I hadn't hear that story; might be true.
In WWII the Russians knew the average tank (at least the way the Russians fought) lasted about 2 months before it was destroyed. So they designed the T-34 with components that would last a few months before wearing out. Anything else was just a waste of resources. They were crap by American standards, but they were high quality as they met the Russian requirements.

[Andrew Gibson]

When I started building acoustic instruments I learned very quickly you really have to be careful. An acoustic instrument has to be built strong enough to last a long time but also light enough to flex and move in order to produce sound. It can be a tricky balance. Race cars need to endure the stress of a race while still being fast enough (light enough) to have a chance at winning. I try to follow these same ideas when building furniture. The first rule is the piece has to do its job indefinitely. The second is it has to look good doing it. Sometimes "over built" can look good, for instance I am working on a MCM credenza design that will use 1" plywood for the main case. It will be a tank when done but ultimately the proportions should be ascetically pleasing and definitely look better than if made from 3/4" material. I also like the idea that it will have the "overbuilt" heft one would expect in a vintage or hand made piece that doesn't have to be shipped or go through a retail supply chain. I could definitely achieve the same ascetic and make the piece lighter if it was for a client or to hit a budget, but this one is for me so 1" it is.... I may regret that next time I move.

[Mike Henderson]

I hadn't hear that story; might be true.
In WWII the Russians knew the average tank (at least the way the Russians fought) lasted about 2 months before it was destroyed. So they designed the T-34 with components that would last a few months before wearing out. Anything else was just a waste of resources. They were crap by American standards, but they were high quality as they met the Russian requirements.

The Soviet T-34 tank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34)is generally considered the best tank design of WWII. It influenced future tank design in every major country, including Germany later in the war.

The Soviets built about 80,000 T-34s, and about 45,000 were lost (destroyed in combat, abandoned in a retreat, etc.).

Mike

[mike stenson]

One phrase that irks me is, "close enough for government work." Close enough for the pilots and crew in military aircraft?

The funny thing is, I learned this phrase from the people you just cited. ;)

I'm an engineer, overkill means you're too lazy to do the design work right.

[Mark Hennebury]

Well I am am not an engineer and i disagree with your statement.

Woodworking is a little different the in terms of goals.
If you look at how customers order custom made furniture, it is usually a sketch and some basic explanation of design , wood color, etc.
For instance if you give ten woodworkers a dimensioned sketch of a table, you could get ten different table, different construction and totally different quality.
You could have dowels, biscuijts, metal brackets, pocket screws, screwed and plugged, Dominos, mortise and tenons or intricate Japanese or Chinese joinery. etc... and the quality of the joinery could be vastly different. the table top boards could be sloppy fit, or precision fit, rough jointed or handplaned etc..
All would fulfill the basic requirements of a table.

But in this range is the good enough to the overkill range, and in woodworking the maker largely gets to choose at what level they work.

So would you like to have a table built the cheapest, fastest method that makes the maker the most money for the least amount of work, ( good enough) or one built by someone that feels the obligation to do the best job that they can do, and does a little more (overkill) keeping in mind that woodworkers that do good enough don't usually tell their customers, and customers cant usually tell the difference or would even fully understand the difference anyway.

In this scenario who is the lazy one?



The funny thing is, I learned this phrase from the people you just cited. ;)

I'm an engineer, overkill means you're too lazy to do the design work right.

[mike stenson]

Well I am am not an engineer and i disagree with your statement.


Clearly, I gathered that from your original post. If you don't understand, or bother to calculate properly what you're building, you're often stuck with overkill, which is just wasteful in so many ways.

Remember, you asked for opinions :)

[Patrick Walsh]

I do agree that mark did ask for opinions.

I do however think that some not all are taking the question out of context. But that’s complicated as ones opinion in the matter is gonna influence perspective. Lots,of things to factor in to opinion and perspective.

I think one guy might work work for a very different reason than the next guy. Not every guy is like me or mark and working wood to recognize a myriad of personal, moral, or practice reasons. Crap people build stuff for all kinds a reason some none of the ones I listed.

[mike stenson]

I do agree that mark did ask for opinions.

I do however think that some not all are taking the question out of context. But that’s complicated as ones opinion in the matter is gonna influence perspective. Lots,of things to factor in to opinion and perspective.

I think one guy might work work for a very different reason than the next guy. Not every guy is like me or mark and working wood to recognize a myriad of personal, moral, or practice reasons. Crap people build stuff for all kinds a reason some none of the ones I listed.

I agree. To be honest, much of the initial post can come across as an attack on engineering in general. Since well, that's exactly what we do. Solve problems that have considerations.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Mike,

I welcome opinions and discussion with explanations of points of view, because quite often there are different takes on the questions, so with a discussion we come to a common understanding of what we are all talking about.

I have a shop full of old machinery, for example, A beautiful 30" Robinson bandsaw from 1951, weighs around 3000lbs and a Dean Smith and Grace 13" x 40" lathe that weighs in around 5000lbs by all means call them overkill if you like, but don't say that they are designed by the lazy or ignorant. These are brilliant pieces of machinery, that have worked for seventy years ..so far.
I like the attitude that went into building them, i have owned and used modern made machines made with a different attitude, a short term, barely there, off the shelf cheap parts rather than parts designed specifically for the purpose. Landfill.

10 years ago i had an expensive monitor that died after 2 years of use. No help from the manufacturer at all. a bit of research, found it to be a common failure, 6 $1.25 capacitors and it was back working, its this kind of stuff that ends in the landfill.
I have an old Devilbiss, (probably 40 or 50 years old) compressor in my shop. I worked for a guy that bought the cheapest compressor he could buy and replaced it each year as they crapped out. economics he told me. more landfill.

So... are you going to answer my question, who would you want building your furniture?





Clearly, I gathered that from your original post. If you don't understand, or bother to calculate properly what you're building, you're often stuck with overkill, which is just wasteful in so many ways.

Remember, you asked for opinions :)

[Art Mann]

One person's "perfection" is another person's "half-ass". The original poster doesn't seem to have a concept of just how expensive and ridiculous "overkill" can be.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Mike,

Sorry if i came across as attacking engineering that was not my intention. I have had arguments with engineers on this forum before, but not about what you do, so I was not attacking that at all.

It is simple a question of the reasons that guide our decisions, your work ethic, and how and why we make our choices.

It wasn't really about engineers, the video and the photos were just to show the extremes.



I agree. To be honest, much of the initial post can come across as an attack on engineering in general. Since well, that's exactly what we do. Solve problems that have considerations.

[Mark Hennebury]

Art,
The original poster knows quite a lot about the cost of "overkill" Thanks.




One person's "perfection" is another person's "half-ass". The original poster doesn't seem to have a concept of just how expensive and ridiculous "overkill" can be.

[Kevin Jenness]

If I can make a glued edge joint that is visually perfect using a jointer is that "good enough"? Must I achieve overkill by "improving" it with a handplane to be fit to call myself a furnituremaker? Can I use spline tenons for the corner joints of a table frame or a door, or must I use fox-wedged tenons? Am I one of the "crap people" if I use a miterfold instead of a lock miter on a cabinet return?

There is an element of moral hectoring here that I find a little off-putting. I agree that I need to aim high in my work to produce work that I find acceptable, but I think I can safely decide what is "good enough" without gilding the lily (aka overkill).

[Patrick Walsh]

And not everything is life is about money.

I get to many money is very much the number one motivator the number one consideration. I get not everyone has the fortune to have the luxury to be concerned to the Degree a bunch of board old guys do. It we should all care. And so long as we put money first, we build crap, we build crap it go’s in a giant hole, it goes in the]at giant hole and we are very clearly kill in ourselfs. But if we as a group a species change our thinking, our perspective, maybe even our motives we can actually do something about it.

I believe there are a number of things that should trump money.

Not destroying the planet as in marks video just the starting point of a giant Iceberg directly related to at last marks perspective and mine..




One person's "perfection" is another person's "half-ass". The original poster doesn't seem to have a concept of just how expensive and ridiculous "overkill" can be.

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t think you perceived tone is accurate.

So yesterday I walked by some crap Cyprus planters I made all timberlocked and stainless steel screwed together. Self admittedly they are all falling apart. But I knew that at the time and it was the decision I made for a myriad of reasons at the time.

I miter fold, butt joint glue ups, the list goes on and on. I have to as I have to make a living and that’s all I can figure a way to get paid to do. Am I proud of it, to I morally or ethically agree with it. Not at all. The facts are anyone buying a $40-200k kitchen can afford to buy something that will not be put in a dumpster in 20 years. But our ethic as a society sourounding this topic is imop defunct broken shattered misguided and to be perfectly honest since I am pathetic.

Very much like what’s going on with out justice system different but the the same. Humans have the capacity for anything we put our minds to. But we choose to be concerned with very harmful things in mind of our personal self fulfillment and ideals. It’s pretty freaking ugly..


If I can make a glued edge joint that is visually perfect using a jointer is that "good enough"? Must I achieve overkill by "improving" it with a handplane to be fit to call myself a furnituremaker? Can I use spline tenons for the corner joints of a table frame or a door, or must I use fox-wedged tenons? Am I one of the "crap people" if I use a miterfold instead of a lock miter on a cabinet return?

There is an element of moral hectoring here that I find a little off-putting. I agree that I need to aim high in my work to produce work that I find acceptable, but I think I can safely decide what is "good enough" without gilding the lily (aka overkill).

[Malcolm McLeod]

I thought this started out with a strong & familiar background accompaniment of ‘grinding’. Same song, different day.
-Out.

[Patrick Walsh]

For instance.

My shop door was to small for my work.

So I had to cut it.

434192

Temporarily I threw these doors together with some crap leftovers I had laying around. Believe it or not they are air tight. A wee rigid insulation Glued to the inside and I’m good technically speaking at least.

434193

But no that’s not gonna cut it for me and I guess technically would be good enough for some. Here’s what I will do genuine mahogany, sipo, sapele whatever all real M&T pegged. Taken proper care of they should last the rest of my life. I’m 42.. lotsa options but most will leave me lacking satisfaction largely based my need to not succumb to good enough as I have no interest in participating.

434194

Building those planters felt like a chore even though it was done before I started. Every moment of this project will be bliss..

[Andrew Seemann]

It is definitely possible to build something too good. My grandfather made benches for our greenhouses back in the 1940s out of cement for growing cut chrysanthemums. Very solid and built to last generations. He did the same for geraniums in the 1950s.

The problem is: they have lasted for generations. We haven't grown chrysanthemums since 1954; we couldn't compete with the cheaper grown flowers from the southern USA, even though ours were better. But we are stuck with those benches because they are too hard to pull out. They are awful for retail sales, and that has been their only use for the last 66 years.

Same with the geranium benches. What was top of the line in the 1950s, now causes mold problems with modern growing methods. Believe it or not, growing plants commercially has changed in the last 60 years. What worked then will put you out of business now. We really want to replace them, but it is an enormous effort, and probably not worth it.

All in all, we would have been better off if they had been built "good enough" rather than "overkill".

[Art Mann]

If the place where you live is not built to withstand a direct hit from a thermo-nuclear device, then you do not know what the cost of "overkill" can be first hand. What you are doing is choosing some arbitrary standard, which might be regarded as pure crap by some fabulously wealthy person, and calling it "overkill".

Art,
The original poster knows quite a lot about the cost of "overkill" Thanks.

[Mark Hennebury]

Art, I don't know how we got here.

I showed a video that i saw as an example of cheap, fast, barely there, bridge and a photo a 1200 year Roman bridge, to make a point how societies attitudes have changed to the modern disposable society, where we build cheap stuff to been thrown out after a few uses.

We live in a time where it is not difficult to do good woodwork, we can if fact do better work, more efficiently than in any time in human history, yet there is so much bad work being done. I have seen decks that i would be afraid to stand on, stairs i wouldn't climb, i have been into workshops where they do crappy work with shitty equipment, i see piles of hardly used household and garden appliances at the end of peoples driveway for the garbage every week, and i watch the news about the damage that we have done to the environment, and i am saddened by it, so i spout off about doing better every chance i get. I see the good enough attitude pushed by woodworkers all the time, I disagree and so will argue the point.

I try to do the best that i can, always have, I got that from my father, and I try to encourage others to do so also.
There is no reward for trying, no reward for doing more, it in fact cost you quite lot, but if you see things that way, what else can you do?

Everyone has their own way of seeing things and the forum is here to share, learn and encourage one another.

my two cents,











If the place where you live is not built to withstand a direct hit from a thermo-nuclear device, then you do not know what the cost of "overkill" can be first hand. What you are doing is choosing some arbitrary standard, which might be regarded as pure crap by some fabulously wealthy person, and calling it "overkill".

[Kevin Jenness]

Mark,

Maybe the problem is in part due to terminology. When I say to myself "That's good enough", I mean that it is, in fact, good enough- for me, for the design, the purpose of the job. Some people say it and think, "That's good enough to skate by when scrutinized by my ignorant client." I don't take that view.

Overkill on the other hand has the connotation of too much, overworked, unnecessary and wasteful, whereas you are arguing for striving for excellent work, and I take no issue with that. When you say "Time, materials and cost are not a factor" though, you challenge reality as it is the rare woodworking project in which cost does not intrude.

I strive for excellence, and (not but) I try to stay real at the same time. Excellence has always been a rare commodity. I would guess there's as large a percentage of excellent work done now as ever, and of crappy work as well. I think the golden age of woodworking is a Platonic ideal. Maybe we are in it without knowing it. Certainly the level of amateur work is far better than 50 years ago, but there has always been exceptional professional work and that is still true. Would that there were a larger market for it. The attitude that produces the throwaway crap you hate has always been there too, all we can do is reject it and provide an alternative.

On the subject of joinery Tage Frid, who was no hack, said "Many... use a complex joint where a joint easier to make would work just as well. I always use the strongest but easiest joint to construct. I cannot see spending time over-constructing a piece. And I expect my furniture to last long after I do."

[Darcy Warner]

I like to be able to pay my bills and feed my 3 kids, plus keep them in clothes, sports stuff, etc. so yeah, money is kind of important. Starving artist is not a career goal of mine. Production work is and will soon be viable and ready to make myself more money, I would like some new socks someday too.

[Andrew Seemann]

When you look at that picture of the 2,000 year old Roman bridge, remember there is a lot of survivorship bias in that picture. The Romans, like every society, built lots of things that were cheap and throw away; you just don't see them now, because they have been gone for 2,000 years. There was plenty of cheap items and shoddy construction from the "good old days", just like there is now.

Heck my great, great uncle, a literal old-world craftsman, came over from Sweden about 110 years ago. He proceeded to be as bad of a carpenter in the new world as he was in the old world. A noted feature of his houses was that the doors never shut right, probably from not doubling the studs around them, among other things.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Darcy,

Good point, glad that you bought it up; let me address it;

Doing high quality work and making a decent living are not mutually exclusive; You can do better work and make more money if you are motivated and do your homework.

I spoke about doing more, more than is required, just to do a high standard quality job, just because. I said that it doesn't pay extra to do more, so it cost you money, money that you could have made.
I never said that you had to starve or not make a living.

If you are motivated you can, with a little research, find machinery that can do the finest work, and do it faster than any other way, which gives you a better product in a less time and you make more money. What is wrong with that.

I worked in a shop that did heritage building restoration, they had maybe 10 - 15 people in the shop, another 10 in the office, big government contracts. A large part of their work was building new windows; when I went there they had a $250 bench top hollow chisel mortiser no tenoner ????????????? seriously. I sold them a Maka, and told them to get a tenoner. they had never seen or heard of one even though Maka mortisers had been on the market for 50 years? Why is that? Why would you have a business that makes windows and not research what equipment could help you do a better job, faster and make you more money?
This stuff is not rocket science, its available to all, especially these days with internet access.
I have been to several shops that do bad quality work, and they do it the slowest hardest way, and am not talking about some retired guy that wants to whittle chairs with a pocket knife, I am talking about businesses with the owner in the office hoping to make money.

There is no reason why anyone can’t do good work efficiently. And I don’t understand the attitude of not doing it.
Good industrial machinery can be purchased used, pretty cheaply. Both you and I know that, you have to do a lot of work to fix it up and get it running, but once its running it works forever, in a small shop.

This me 30 odd years ago. using my Balestrini tenoner to do tenons on a set of back slats for 10 chairs, 80 tenons, about 15 minutes to set it up and do test cuts, and 10 minutes to cut them all of them! Super accurate, infinitely adjustable within the capabilities of the machine, independently adjustable length width, depth and radius, clean scibed shoulder, chamfered edged tenon, tenons adjustable from vertical to horizontal, adjustable table and fence for compound angles. You can even adjust it to cut dowels if you want. The mate to this is the twin table mortiser. There is incredible machinery available if you look.
With this equipment i could also subcontract work; I did all of the mortise and tenon joinery for 300 sets of hard Maple bunk-beds for a company, easy work for me, virtually impossible for them to do.

434232

The mortice
434237








I like to be able to pay my bills and feed my 3 kids, plus keep them in clothes, sports stuff, etc. so yeah, money is kind of important. Starving artist is not a career goal of mine. Production work is and will soon be viable and ready to make myself more money, I would like some new socks someday too.

[Mark Hennebury]

Kevin you are probable right, my use of the term "good enough" was as in cheaply made. And "overkill" was as in made above minimum passable standards of quality, not as in badly designed overly heavy use of materials to compensate for bad design or such. Of course in reality we all call a stop at some point and say that's good enough, we can't go on indefinitely. So i apologize for any confusion. I posted the photo of the roman bridge as an example of "built to last"
There are many great woodworkers doing excellent work, today as always. have you seen the work that Chris Hall did on his blog "The Carpentry way" Incredible stuff!




Mark,

Maybe the problem is in part due to terminology. When I say to myself "That's good enough", I mean that it is, in fact, good enough- for me, for the design, the purpose of the job. Some people say it and think, "That's good enough to skate by when scrutinized by my ignorant client." I don't take that view.

Overkill on the other hand has the connotation of too much, overworked, unnecessary and wasteful, whereas you are arguing for striving for excellent work, and I take no issue with that. When you say "Time, materials and cost are not a factor" though, you challenge reality as it is the rare woodworking project in which cost does not intrude.

I strive for excellence, and (not but) I try to stay real at the same time. Excellence has always been a rare commodity. I would guess there's as large a percentage of excellent work done now as ever, and of crappy work as well. I think the golden age of woodworking is a Platonic ideal. Maybe we are in it without knowing it. Certainly the level of amateur work is far better than 50 years ago, but there has always been exceptional professional work and that is still true. Would that there were a larger market for it. The attitude that produces the throwaway crap you hate has always been there too, all we can do is reject it and provide an alternative.

On the subject of joinery Tage Frid, who was no hack, said "Many... use a complex joint where a joint easier to make would work just as well. I always use the strongest but easiest joint to construct. I cannot see spending time over-constructing a piece. And I expect my furniture to last long after I do."

[Darcy Warner]

Hi Darcy,

Good point, glad that you bought it up; let me address it;

Doing high quality work and making a decent living are not mutually exclusive; You can do better work and make more money if you are motivated and do your homework.

I spoke about doing more, more than is required, just to do a high standard quality job, just because. I said that it doesn't pay extra to do more, so it cost you money, money that you could have made.
I never said that you had to starve or not make a living.

If you are motivated you can, with a little research, find machinery that can do the finest work, and do it faster than any other way, which gives you a better product in a less time and you make more money. What is wrong with that.

I worked in a shop that did heritage building restoration, they had maybe 10 - 15 people in the shop, another 10 in the office, big government contracts. A large part of their work was building new windows; when I went there they had a $250 bench top hollow chisel mortiser no tenoner ????????????? seriously. I sold them a Maka, and told them to get a tenoner. they had never seen or heard of one even though Maka mortisers had been on the market for 50 years? Why is that? Why would you have a business that makes windows and not research what equipment could help you do a better job, faster and make you more money?
This stuff is not rocket science, its available to all, especially these days with internet access.
I have been to several shops that do bad quality work, and they do it the slowest hardest way, and am not talking about some retired guy that wants to whittle chairs with a pocket knife, I am talking about businesses with the owner in the office hoping to make money.

There is no reason why anyone can’t do good work efficiently. And I don’t understand the attitude of not doing it.
Good industrial machinery can be purchased used, pretty cheaply. Both you and I know that, you have to do a lot of work to fix it up and get it running, but once its running it works forever, in a small shop.

This me 30 odd years ago. using my Balestrini tenoner to do tenons on a set of back slats for 10 chairs, 80 tenons, about 15 minutes to set it up and do test cuts, and 10 minutes to cut them all of them! Super accurate, infinitely adjustable within the capabilities of the machine, independently adjustable length width, depth and radius, clean scibed shoulder, chamfered edged tenon, tenons adjustable from vertical to horizontal, adjustable table and fence for compound angles. You can even adjust it to cut dowels if you want. The mate to this is the twin table mortiser. There is incredible machinery available if you look.
With this equipment i could also subcontract work; I did all of the mortise and tenon joinery for 300 sets of hard Maple bunk-beds for a company, easy work for me, virtually impossible for them to do.

434232

The mortice
434237

Which is one of the reasons I have a 10" profilematic profile sander set up as my last operation machine. The few places around here think a flap wheel is good enough after the moulder. They don't even sand the s3s they sell.
Would like to add a feed through priming machine sometime as well.

You want to talk about a hole you throw money in...

[Mel Fulks]

Some techniques are considered the same except one is faster. But they are not the same. I've seen elliptical cased openings laid out with the "two radius " method. I hate those things and would not use them. Even when given a pic
to copy ,I pointed out they were wrong and laid out a real ellipse. Clients who did not know the difference when they
walked in were always grateful for getting something with grace.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I am decidedly in the overkill camp.

[Kevin Jenness]

"have you seen the work that Chris Hall did on his blog "The Carpentry way" Incredible stuff!"

Yes, he was an inspiration. His untimely death is a real loss.

There are numerous posters on this site who exemplify the best of our craft and I am equally grateful to them, and appreciate the fact that we can learn from one another here.

[Norman Pirollo]

In furniture making, I think we should not confuse "overkill" or "engineering overkill" with "advanced design" and "attention to detail". Overkill connotates over-building or over-engineering. In fine furniture making, instead the time is invested in developing a design that appears sleek and light , yet has the strength to pull it all together. It takes time to both design and to build to this standard. So it is not overkill but instead can be attributed to "elegant, light styling". Beginning woodworkers tend to create bulky pieces since they don't have the experience. Advanced furniture makers instead will emphasize a light design that maintains the strength necessary in the piece to counteract stresses. This comes with experience. More to say about this..

Norman

[Mark Bolton]

So would you like to have a table built the cheapest, fastest method that makes the maker the most money for the least amount of work, ( good enough) or one built by someone that feels the obligation to do the best job that they can do, and does a little more (overkill) keeping in mind that woodworkers that do good enough don't usually tell their customers, and customers cant usually tell the difference or would even fully understand the difference anyway.

In this scenario who is the lazy one?

So are you in an internal war here insinuating that anyone from an auto mechanic to a furniture maker to a high-rise architect, who evaluates the customers wants, needs, desires, in direct and solumn correlation to thier budget, are somehow being hacks, or scammers, or somehow "less-than", in your mind? Your comments read like the really sad but tried and true recipie for so many who work in this hobby/industry. Someone who simply cant see the forest for the trees, cant adjust their process to meet the specifications of the job, and to that end, they never are truly profitable. The either operate in a world where their neruocies leave them with a balance sheet that equates to $.0875/hour in compensation OR in the more common incantation they are in the dead negative column because its a hobby and they have income from elswhere or retirement, or they have a spouse with a good job (who likley wants to gouge your eyeballs out because they'd like to have a vacation or fat 401K), and you justify going WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY above and beyond NOT because the job or project commands it, but because your neurotic nature cant shake itself free of the Rainman model of moving through the world?

A kitchen designer doesnt design a kitchen with high dollar euro appliances, imported tile, and high dollar accents, even though they may feel its best for the structure.. they design to the client and to the budget. Whether it be hobby or proffessioinal the math is simply the math.

Your initial post insinuating that the alternative to anal retentive overkill is a catastrophic bridge collapse is a bit crazy. There is a mile of perfectly viable ground between the overkill and the extreme of a bridge collapse. Understood it speaks to your need to justify going 63 miles off base in overkill which its wonderful that you have that luxury. But to insinuate that the miles of perfectly solid ground between you, and a bridge collapse, is somehow, I dont know.... crappy? Is pretty self endulgent.

Mike Stetsons, and the other posts that speak to designing and manufacturing ANYTHING to the specifications and standards commensurate with its use and cost are spot on hobby or not. Its fine if that doesnt work for someone and they are comfortable with their loss in going overkill but just as you stated,.. dont force it on others. Post #1 clearly attempted to insinuate that the alternative to overkill is a catastrophic bridge collapse..

Weird.

[Doug Dawson]

Mike Stetsons, and the other posts that speak to designing and manufacturing ANYTHING to the specifications and standards commensurate with its use and cost are spot on hobby or not. Its fine if that doesnt work for someone and they are comfortable with their loss in going overkill but just as you stated,.. dont force it on others. Post #1 clearly attempted to insinuate that the alternative to overkill is a catastrophic bridge collapse..

Overkill in bridge design is great, all other things being equal, as long as allowances are made for easy repairability. Thanks! Our responsibility and reputation doesn’t end after we’re dead.

[Jim Matthews]

When you look at that picture of the 2,000 year old Roman bridge, remember there is a lot of survivorship bias in that picture. The Romans, like every society, built lots of things that were cheap and throw away; you just don't see them now, because they have been gone for 2,000 years. There was plenty of cheap items and shoddy construction from the "good old days", just like there is now.

^^^^^
This.

Plenty of satisfactory, fit to purpose shabby crap in every era.
There's a body of body of thought suggesting Rome went under because of maintenance costs.

[Jim Matthews]

Using Chinese construction failures to illustrate your point is a poorly constructed argument.

The false choice you presented belies a fallacy undermining your premise.

A more revealing notion would be "What do you celebrate most?" Nobody thinks about our technological achievements, until they fail.

Even money says that the perfectionist in one craft has skipped an oil change, eaten substandard food or dumped something that *could* be repaired.

Caution should be exercised in framing such questions, lest they say more about *you* and less about your audience.

[Jim Matthews]

Russians bore the brunt of German artillery, mobile armor and air power for 5 straight years.

The Russians built a marvel, as their lives depended on it. Tanks weren't falling apart on the firing line, they were under siege.

"You can't believe everything you read on the internet."
- Abraham Lincoln

[Patrick Walsh]

I think marks response is valid as hard a time I have admitting it. I’ll let you all decide what mark I’m talking about.

As a guy that makes stuff for a living. The guy that actually makes the stuff not the one that keeps the business above water. I can say this it has been my observation that mark is spot on in his assessment of most making a living of any sort working with wood. Further even those running even moderately successful business seem to me to have some benefactor myself included. Form what I have seen and I have been exposed to numerous shops/makers whatever at this point is people tend to have a spouse with a good job and are filling in as a stay at home dad in most cases. Or come from wealth and things are either funded by mom and dad or at the very least knowing mom and dad have something to leave them and are in no rush to kill themself doing anything they don’t want to. There just really is not all that much of any money in making things other than a meager hard earned living be you the boss or the employee.

The case of the benefactor seems to come into play “at least from what I have seen” to a larger degree the finer the work the person is producing.

There’s no rules or lines in sand here in my statements and lots of exceptions to my experiences and observations but that is what I have seen and self admittedly where I fit in also.

In the time I have been making fine things and I’m not casting stones in any direction here and I know I’m just as guilty of passing judgment if not ore so than most, but makers of nice stuff seem to have a very snobbish entitled view on the world myself included. I’m not proud of it and when I see it in others makes it really turns me off and makes me not even want to be part of the dam club. But alas I’m totally a quality overkill snob. Not much I can do about it as it’s who I am at my core as Mark often points out regarding us perfectionists. All I can do is be aware of it, mind my passing judgment and try to limit it and at all times proceed taking into account hurting others feels or judging them for anything other than having say a ugly hate filled heart is not who I want to be. Each to his own we all have a place to fit in and role to play.

But yup I kinda a snobbish ass hole and I surely am aware of it. And if for not other reasons that I do actually believe that 99.9% of the crap I have found a way to get paid to make is really nothing more than glorified garbage.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your analysis.

My original post was a dig at the modern "throw away attitude" that's all.


At 66 years of age i have seen some very good work from many trades, i have also seen some very bad work. I don't believe it has much to do with catering to "The customers wants"
I have had a lot machine work done at many machine shops. The quality of work varied greatly. Not "the customer wants"
I had one shop weld a piece of round bar to a bracket for me, a trivial job, but excellently done, I put that down to the welder caring a lot about doing a good job, not the budget or specs.
I know of several shops that make windows, one, well equipped, and does excellent work, another, poorly equipped, does lower quality work. Nothing to do with "customer wants" or budget The good one is run by a highly skilled woodworker that knows his trade and cares about doing good work. the other is run by a businessman who doesn't appear to have the same interest in the work.

Your kitchen part is quite strange; i am not sure what i said that made you think that. I was talking about how things are built. I made furniture.
Mostly what i was talking about is the fact that a for a lot woodworking, construction is not specified, and is up to the makers to decide on what type of construction and tolerance they use.
If you make doors, or tables what do you do, full mortise and tenons, stub tenons, dowels, biscuits, dominoes, screwed and plugged etc.. when its put together your customer can't tell what method you used or what tolerance.

I had a few friends who "married well" ,or had benefactors and had their woodworking subsidized. i didn't; i had to fully support a wife and two kids, a mortgage and commercial shop rent, car payments, bank loans etc.
So i had to try and learn to do things efficiently. So got decent equipment. With the right equipment, you can do better work, more efficiently and more profitably.That math is simply math also.
You probably wont ever make much money making furniture unless you are famous. You get to do nice work in your own shop and scrape by.

If you think that i have some kind of mental illness, you are probably right. No logical reason to do any more than you have to.








So are you in an internal war here insinuating that anyone from an auto mechanic to a furniture maker to a high-rise architect, who evaluates the customers wants, needs, desires, in direct and solumn correlation to thier budget, are somehow being hacks, or scammers, or somehow "less-than", in your mind? Your comments read like the really sad but tried and true recipie for so many who work in this hobby/industry. Someone who simply cant see the forest for the trees, cant adjust their process to meet the specifications of the job, and to that end, they never are truly profitable. The either operate in a world where their neruocies leave them with a balance sheet that equates to $.0875/hour in compensation OR in the more common incantation they are in the dead negative column because its a hobby and they have income from elswhere or retirement, or they have a spouse with a good job (who likley wants to gouge your eyeballs out because they'd like to have a vacation or fat 401K), and you justify going WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY above and beyond NOT because the job or project commands it, but because your neurotic nature cant shake itself free of the Rainman model of moving through the world?

A kitchen designer doesnt design a kitchen with high dollar euro appliances, imported tile, and high dollar accents, even though they may feel its best for the structure.. they design to the client and to the budget. Whether it be hobby or proffessioinal the math is simply the math.

Your initial post insinuating that the alternative to anal retentive overkill is a catastrophic bridge collapse is a bit crazy. There is a mile of perfectly viable ground between the overkill and the extreme of a bridge collapse. Understood it speaks to your need to justify going 63 miles off base in overkill which its wonderful that you have that luxury. But to insinuate that the miles of perfectly solid ground between you, and a bridge collapse, is somehow, I dont know.... crappy? Is pretty self endulgent.

Mike Stetsons, and the other posts that speak to designing and manufacturing ANYTHING to the specifications and standards commensurate with its use and cost are spot on hobby or not. Its fine if that doesnt work for someone and they are comfortable with their loss in going overkill but just as you stated,.. dont force it on others. Post #1 clearly attempted to insinuate that the alternative to overkill is a catastrophic bridge collapse..

Weird.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Patrick,

My guess is that "most" people in the woodworking business are there partially because of a love of the trade,
Some are there simply because its a way to make money and they have found a niche in the market that hey can fill profitably.
A few that do over the top, money is no object, (the ones that i knew at least) were like you say funded from some other source and didn't have to worry about paying the bills.
Most in the business, that i know of have to earn a living at it, and also take pride in doing a good job, and do some level above and beyond what they actually have to do.
It is a struggle to find a balance where you can earn a living and feel good about what you do in woodworking, not impossible, but tough.
I don't think that it is snobbish to take pride in your work, and I think that it's understandable to be a little judgmental when you see people in the trade doing shoddy work.
I think that most in the woodworking trade are in the overkill camp at some level and do far more than they actually have to, to get paid.





I think marks response is valid as hard a time I have admitting it. I’ll let you all decide what mark I’m talking about.

As a guy that makes stuff for a living. The guy that actually makes the stuff not the one that keeps the business above water. I can say this it has been my observation that mark is spot on in his assessment of most making a living of any sort working with wood. Further even those running even moderately successful business seem to me to have some benefactor myself included. Form what I have seen and I have been exposed to numerous shops/makers whatever at this point is people tend to have a spouse with a good job and are filling in as a stay at home dad in most cases. Or come from wealth and things are either funded by mom and dad or at the very least knowing mom and dad have something to leave them and are in no rush to kill themself doing anything they don’t want to. There just really is not all that much of any money in making things other than a meager hard earned living be you the boss or the employee.

The case of the benefactor seems to come into play “at least from what I have seen” to a larger degree the finer the work the person is producing.

There’s no rules or lines in sand here in my statements and lots of exceptions to my experiences and observations but that is what I have seen and self admittedly where I fit in also.

In the time I have been making fine things and I’m not casting stones in any direction here and I know I’m just as guilty of passing judgment if not ore so than most, but makers of nice stuff seem to have a very snobbish entitled view on the world myself included. I’m not proud of it and when I see it in others makes it really turns me off and makes me not even want to be part of the dam club. But alas I’m totally a quality overkill snob. Not much I can do about it as it’s who I am at my core as Mark often points out regarding us perfectionists. All I can do is be aware of it, mind my passing judgment and try to limit it and at all times proceed taking into account hurting others feels or judging them for anything other than having say a ugly hate filled heart is not who I want to be. Each to his own we all have a place to fit in and role to play.

But yup I kinda a snobbish ass hole and I surely am aware of it. And if for not other reasons that I do actually believe that 99.9% of the crap I have found a way to get paid to make is really nothing more than glorified garbage.

[Wade Lippman]

I think most would consider the German Panther to be the best tank of WWII. The T-34 was the most innovative tank, and the best early in the war.
But that brings up the issue of what is best/quality. The Panther cost 4 times as much as a T-34 and was only somewhat superior. Which had higher quality? That's what this thread is about.

[Edwin Santos]

Kevin you are probable right, my use of the term "good enough" was as in cheaply made. And "overkill" was as in made above minimum passable standards of quality, not as in badly designed overly heavy use of materials to compensate for bad design or such. Of course in reality we all call a stop at some point and say that's good enough, we can't go on indefinitely. So i apologize for any confusion. I posted the photo of the roman bridge as an example of "built to last"
There are many great woodworkers doing excellent work, today as always. have you seen the work that Chris Hall did on his blog "The Carpentry way" Incredible stuff!


The Panther cost 4 times as much as a T-34 and was only somewhat superior. Which had higher quality? That's what this thread is about.

Wade, I thought the same as you until I saw Mark's clarification above about the subject matter of the thread. As is so often the case; words, especially subjective words, can have different meanings to different people. Speaking for myself, I was totally overthinking the original post.

It's for Mark to say, but the post might have been nothing more than a simple appeal to not settle for the mediocre, and instead to strive for the highest standards of workmanship possible, all other things being equal.
Implicitly nested within the point might be a lament (or lecture?) that standards have moved in the wrong direction over time. Of course, this is all a matter of opinion, including my interpretation.

Speaking for myself only, I try to work to the highest standards of my abilities as a matter of personal satisfaction. I have a sign in my shop that says "Don't quit until you're proud".
However, unless I'm a paying customer, it's not my place to judge the standards and practices of others. If we're just talking about standards of workmanship in a vacuum, it's for each craftsman to define his or her own standard. Often times, the answer is a negotiation of circumstances.
Edwin

[peter gagliardi]

I think that we have a moral obligation to do more than "good enough"


https://youtu.be/WfGMYdalClU

That right there, Mark ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the sad commentary that, like it or not is mostly the truth of our existence here on the whole.
Yes, it is on us to do better.
I also agree most of us that are self employed are self employed because we worked for someone early on who dictated the "acceptable" standard of quality and speed and we knew better was possible.
Interestingly, there actually ARE people out there willing to pay for better grades of work.

Better work almost always lasts longer, is more efficient, or is better cared for- a win for the client, a win for the worker, a win for the planet.

I take pride in ,
1. furnishing a level that is hopefully above my clients expectation- so far, so good on that one.
2. Using the proper materials and joinery to create something worthy over time to the cost of the planet and our ecosystem as compared to most of what I see.
3. On the rare occasion putting some special effort in to create some visual perk not required, but adding value to me and my client. Testing my skills.
4. Completing all of the above in a way financially that I can support my family and continue forward on this path- sometimes this one is hard!

Trying to do all that and have mental capacity for the myriad other obligations and goals in life is plenty.
Anyone outside that, can and will have varying viewpoints on it - some thinking it good, some thinking it doesn't go far enough.
In the end, I can live with my choices, be happy, and feel I contributed to the "plus" side of the equation.

[Patrick Walsh]

Here is a pictorial example of at least part of how I understand Marks question.

I’m rebuilding these pipe organ pieces. These deliver and distribute air to various pipes.

These are a restoration project of sorts. The organ in question was subject to water damage result of a bad roof.

As a result these boxes filled with water and distorted resulting in them no longer being air tight. They have to be air tight.

Ok so interior organ parts from what I am coming to understand as a organ builder are crude at least and a form of function and only a form of function. It seems the easiest path to a functional solution is all that is employed. These practices in the organ world are a matter of tradition and from what I’m seeing a stubborn resistance to change even if in the name of improvement is highly frowned upon. It’s a very antiquated mindset of it fit was good enough all these years it’s good enough.

Ok maybe you have a point but as a maker I’m always striving to improve upon anything be it my Woodworking or personal relationships.

So these pieces are pretty much a box with a lid screwed on with a cardboard gasket. I figured the lids had warped And as a result I figured out I could throw the box portion through the planer to re flatten it’s edge again. They don’t need to be free or twist as they get screwed to something else that will flatten them out.

So what does that leave for me for work. Remake the tops.

As a result I opted to use the piece itself as a template.

Worth mentioning is all hardware screws and all are always retained in restoration work. I mention so as using a screw with a smaller head is not a option.

So what’s the issue and how does it relate.

Well when routing the new lid to the box “attached with the original screws” I found whomever made the boxes the first time litters.ly missed the mark and didn’t place them properly as for the heads to not hang over the side.

As a result the screw heads would have to be routed flush, edge sanded or files flush.

434333

434334

Picture showing the side profile and the box bottom glued to the sides and top secured on with cardboard sandwiched to creat a gasket.

434336

Wtf

434335

No worries just keep going no pride here just a matter of function after all.

434336

Even worse than this is that organ building is all about air delivery. Very precise air delivery. Paramount is “air tight” and no air leaks.

If that were to be the case these boxes that are nothing but butt joints pinned glued then screwed would and could have plenty of very basic “or complicated” joinery that would greatly aid in the whole air tight thing. At least as it pertains to the life span of a organ and say wood movement or glue failure.

But no this is 100% good enough and I think for many a woodworker consumers alike also “good enough” for me this is a miserable failure and a sure sigh that a hack without any real pride or care for his work executed this work. After all this a organ “I am repairing” god knows how old and unlike modern kitchens and furniture the intention is they live on into infinity.

So why on earth would you build something riddled with butt joints, pins fully reliant on glue and screws. Screws I get in places as to service and repair. But the true lack of basic woodworking technique is at least to me pathetic. Add to the the acceptance of miss like these screw heads or rampant tearout based upon its inside the case nobody will ever see it “unless they go into the organ” is well just not why I work wood. Heck it’s not why I do anything.

Thought this was attune to topic pretty well..

[Patrick Walsh]

A perfect response. At least one that I can relate to and respect.

Others may have different options and although foregoing the things like the planet doesn’t make me happy not much I can do but my part and do me,




That right there, Mark ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the sad commentary that, like it or not is mostly the truth of our existence here on the whole.
Yes, it is on us to do better.
I also agree most of us that are self employed are self employed because we worked for someone early on who dictated the "acceptable" standard of quality and speed and we knew better was possible.
Interestingly, there actually ARE people out there willing to pay for better grades of work.

Better work almost always lasts longer, is more efficient, or is better cared for- a win for the client, a win for the worker, a win for the planet.

I take pride in ,
1. furnishing a level that is hopefully above my clients expectation- so far, so good on that one.
2. Using the proper materials and joinery to create something worthy over time to the cost of the planet and our ecosystem as compared to most of what I see.
3. On the rare occasion putting some special effort in to create some visual perk not required, but adding value to me and my client. Testing my skills.
4. Completing all of the above in a way financially that I can support my family and continue forward on this path- sometimes this one is hard!
A perfect response. At least one that I can relate to and respect.

Others may have different options and although foregoing the things like the planet doesn’t make me happy not much I can do but my part and do me,


Trying to do all that and have mental capacity for the myriad other obligations and goals in life is plenty.
Anyone outside that, can and will have varying viewpoints on it - some thinking it good, some thinking it doesn't go far enough.
In the end, I can live with my choices, be happy, and feel I contributed to the "plus" side of the equation.

[Rick Potter]

My dream is that I can someday create furniture that has enough 'over the top' quality to be featured on the 'Flea Market Flip' TV show.

Maybe someday.

[Mark Hennebury]

Thank you Peter,

You and a few others have understood what this was about.
For those that didn't, i apologize for any misunderstanding and perceived offence.




That right there, Mark ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the sad commentary that, like it or not is mostly the truth of our existence here on the whole.
Yes, it is on us to do better.
I also agree most of us that are self employed are self employed because we worked for someone early on who dictated the "acceptable" standard of quality and speed and we knew better was possible.
Interestingly, there actually ARE people out there willing to pay for better grades of work.

Better work almost always lasts longer, is more efficient, or is better cared for- a win for the client, a win for the worker, a win for the planet.

I take pride in ,
1. furnishing a level that is hopefully above my clients expectation- so far, so good on that one.
2. Using the proper materials and joinery to create something worthy over time to the cost of the planet and our ecosystem as compared to most of what I see.
3. On the rare occasion putting some special effort in to create some visual perk not required, but adding value to me and my client. Testing my skills.
4. Completing all of the above in a way financially that I can support my family and continue forward on this path- sometimes this one is hard!

Trying to do all that and have mental capacity for the myriad other obligations and goals in life is plenty.
Anyone outside that, can and will have varying viewpoints on it - some thinking it good, some thinking it doesn't go far enough.
In the end, I can live with my choices, be happy, and feel I contributed to the "plus" side of the equation.

[Mark Hennebury]

On point, Thanks Edwin,




Wade, I thought the same as you until I saw Mark's clarification above about the subject matter of the thread. As is so often the case; words, especially subjective words, can have different meanings to different people. Speaking for myself, I was totally overthinking the original post.

It's for Mark to say, but the post might have been nothing more than a simple appeal to not settle for the mediocre, and instead to strive for the highest standards of workmanship possible, all other things being equal.
Implicitly nested within the point might be a lament (or lecture?) that standards have moved in the wrong direction over time. Of course, this is all a matter of opinion, including my interpretation.

Speaking for myself only, I try to work to the highest standards of my abilities as a matter of personal satisfaction. I have a sign in my shop that says "Don't quit until you're proud".
However, unless I'm a paying customer, it's not my place to judge the standards and practices of others. If we're just talking about standards of workmanship in a vacuum, it's for each craftsman to define his or her own standard. Often times, the answer is a negotiation of circumstances.
Edwin

[Roger Feeley]

I’m most on team “good enough”. When things aren’t so pretty, I tell people that it shows that the piece was handmade. “If you want dimensional perfection, go to IKEA”

But sometimes I like to wallow in overkill. Once we were at a friends farm roasting hot dogs. We’d gon out into the brush and cut sticks. There are a number of problems with sticks:
1. They tend to droop causing a weenie that sort of burnt at one end and raw at the other.
2. Rotating the weenie is as most sticks are bent. See #1.
3. Sticks can be short relulting in a roasted face.
4. Marshmallows are another challenge. About the time the marshmallow cooks, the stick can’t rotate it.

so... I said that I would provide the sticks next time.
i constructed some 3’ aluminum tubes with a central shaft. At the back is a motor rotating about 10rpm using a 9v battery. At the front is a brass rod threaded for several attachments. The main attachment is a simple surgical grade SS spike for a hot dog. I also constructed some holders patterned after fishing pole holders so you can position your stick and step back thus not roasting your face. The second attachment is simply a way to hold two spikes in parallel for roasting marshmallows. With two spikes, you can get a golden orb nearly 3” in diameter.

i built six of these things.

i built a fitted case for all this nonsense and took it to the next weenie roast. It was mostly about the comedy of the overkill. But darned if they didn’t work! I was a pretty popular guy around the campfire for a while. I still have them and haul them out from time to time. Maybe when the grandkids are older...

[Andrew Seemann]

So why on earth would you build something riddled with butt joints, pins fully reliant on glue and screws. Screws I get in places as to service and repair. But the true lack of basic woodworking technique is at least to me pathetic. Add to the the acceptance of miss like these screw heads or rampant tearout based upon its inside the case nobody will ever see it “unless they go into the organ” is well just not why I work wood. Heck it’s not why I do anything.

Thought this was attune to topic pretty well..

Funny you bring up musical instruments. The Ruckers family built some of what are considered the greatest sounding harpsichords ever created. Some of them are still playing despite being over 400 years old. Yet they are rampant with exactly the things you describe above. In fact one of their noted characteristics and methods of authentication is basically how sh!tty the construction is.

Butt joints. Tear out. Split wood straight from the hatchet; no planing. Stuff held together with glue and nails or pegs (screws were way to expensive for them in the 1600s). Knots hidden by decoration. Poor quality wood.

And yet, the action on the instruments is superb, even if somewhat crudely made. The sound is glorious. As noted many have survived for centuries. Their goal was to build beautiful sounding instruments; they did what they needed to and no more. They didn't waste time with better joinery because it did not improve the instrument, it just made it take more time to make. In fact, it is speculated that some things were done to deliberately weaken the instrument because it improved the sound.

On that organ, did the "sloppy" construction fail prior to being flooded? Does the tear out harm the tone? If not, don't be too judgmental on its builders. They built it to make music, not impress cabinet makers. If anything, what about the roof that leaked? That seems to be the main issue of poor construction:)

Back to harpsichords, many were built with absolutely flawless cabinetry by builders in the early to mid 20th century. Unfortunately, they also didn't understand what was important musically on the instruments. They were very overbuilt, with much stronger cases than historically (those fool historical builders didn't even bother to build a decent case), some even had iron frames. Modern musical wire was used, rather than pathetic low carbon wire of yore. Good plywood was used for stability. And so on, so on.

The net result were instruments that were of obvious high construction quality, and often very poor musical quality. The heavy cases sucked up the limited input energy of the plucks. The plywood had poor resonance further ruining tone. The individual components were superb, but the overall system was poor.

When people started buiiding instruments similar to the "hopelessly weak" old designs, they found they were much louder, clearer, and more stable than the new modern, over-designed instruments. Overkill does not always mean better, and better quality of construction of the parts doesn't always make the whole better.

[Kevin Jenness]

I recall reading that Stradivarius violins are nothing to look at when taken apart. When you look at the old cabinetmaker journeyman daybooks it's clear that they had no time for making anything perfect that didn't show, but many of the surviving masterpieces of our craft were made under just such time pressure and close inspection proves it. I think the industrial revolution made societies more generally affluent and designer-craftsmen able to indulge their penchant for meticulous unseen work. Of course it also made way for the mountains of mass-produced crap shown in that brilliant "Man" video. Hail blessed, wretched excess!

[Mel Fulks]

Kevin, never heard that. It is certainly interesting since guys who have worked on them and owned them say the
details that show are generally better than most. Leads me to wonder if he "spot treated " with some thickness changes
inside the plates after making a perfect outside. Certainly my guess is good enough to be thrown into the storage barrel
with the thousands of others !

[Mel Fulks]

Edwin, it at least an interesting story,and it's well known that Ford and his friend Edison never tired of talking possibilities
and tweaking stuff that already worked just fine.

[Patrick Walsh]

I do get the outlined concept.

However it seems at least to me that organs are extremely ornamental decorative.

I get I was pointing out the insides not the outsides.

I have been thinking/figuring out all along with this new position that organ makers are most concerned with the sound. Makes sense and is obvious.

I guess I as a cabinet maker look at a grand cathedral organ and I see inspiring beautiful intricate woodwork as a musician just wants to hear it.

It was suggested to me today by another organ builder/restore I’m doing some side work for that “most organ builders” are generalists.

I will always yearn to be a specialist. My response to his comment was I hope I can find a place within the community to be a specialist. His response was “I think you already have”.. let’s hope he is right.
‘’’
Funny you bring up musical instruments. The Ruckers family built some of what are considered the greatest sounding harpsichords ever created. Some of them are still playing despite being over 400 years old. Yet they are rampant with exactly the things you describe above. In fact one of their noted characteristics and methods of authentication is basically how sh!tty the construction is.

Butt joints. Tear out. Split wood straight from the hatchet; no planing. Stuff held together with glue and nails or pegs (screws were way to expensive for them in the 1600s). Knots hidden by decoration. Poor quality wood.

And yet, the action on the instruments is superb, even if somewhat crudely made. The sound is glorious. As noted many have survived for centuries. Their goal was to build beautiful sounding instruments; they did what they needed to and no more. They didn't waste time with better joinery because it did not improve the instrument, it just made it take more time to make. In fact, it is speculated that some things were done to deliberately weaken the instrument because it improved the sound.

On that organ, did the "sloppy" construction fail prior to being flooded? Does the tear out harm the tone? If not, don't be too judgmental on its builders. They built it to make music, not impress cabinet makers. If anything, what about the roof that leaked? That seems to be the main issue of poor construction:)

Back to harpsichords, many were built with absolutely flawless cabinetry by builders in the early to mid 20th century. Unfortunately, they also didn't understand what was important musically on the instruments. They were very overbuilt, with much stronger cases than historically (those fool historical builders didn't even bother to build a decent case), some even had iron frames. Modern musical wire was used, rather than pathetic low carbon wire of yore. Good plywood was used for stability. And so on, so on.

The net result were instruments that were of obvious high construction quality, and often very poor musical quality. The heavy cases sucked up the limited input energy of the plucks. The plywood had poor resonance further ruining tone. The individual components were superb, but the overall system was poor.

When people started buiiding instruments similar to the "hopelessly weak" old designs, they found they were much louder, clearer, and more stable than the new modern, over-designed instruments. Overkill does not always mean better, and better quality of construction of the parts doesn't always make the whole better.

[Jim Koepke]

Butt joints. Tear out. Split wood straight from the hatchet; no planing. Stuff held together with glue and nails or pegs (screws were way to expensive for them in the 1600s). Knots hidden by decoration. Poor quality wood.

And yet, the action on the instruments is superb, even if somewhat crudely made. The sound is glorious. As noted many have survived for centuries. Their goal was to build beautiful sounding instruments; they did what they needed to and no more.

Explanations of musical instruments such as this make me wonder if the rough uneven surfaces on the inside created a more resonant tone from the reflection of sound waves than that achieved on a perfectly smoothed piece of wood.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

so... I said that I would provide the sticks next time.
i constructed some 3’ aluminum tubes with a central shaft. At the back is a motor rotating about 10rpm using a 9v battery. At the front is a brass rod threaded for several attachments.

That is a great story Roger. It could even have commercial potential.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

If something was designed to last through 90 days of use but ended up being used for 6 months, would that have been overkill?

Now it is 75 years later and some of them are still in place and serving their original intent.

For the curious search > phoenix caisson < or Mulberry harbour <

Hint: Instead of thinking overkill, think overlord.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

Explanations of musical instruments such as this make me wonder if the rough uneven surfaces on the inside created a more resonant tone from the reflection of sound waves than that achieved on a perfectly smoothed piece of wood.



"Back in the day", the methods available for working with the material were "less diverse" than they are today. Everything had to be worked by hand with blades and saws and that takes quite a bit of effort. So there was little incentive to "finish" surfaces and areas that wouldn't be seen. I suspect that a side benefit is as you mention...the un-refined wood's resonance and reflectivity may very well have been a nice side-benefit. To be honest, I don't put a whole lot of effort into areas and surfaces of projects that will go unseen, myself. That leaves more time and effort available for the "show" side.

[Mark Hennebury]

Interesting stuff Jim,

Seems to have ended up being money well spent.



If something was designed to last through 90 days of use but ended up being used for 6 months, would that have been overkill?

Now it is 75 years later and some of them are still in place and serving their original intent.

For the curious search > phoenix caisson < or Mulberry harbour <

Hint: Instead of thinking overkill, think overlord.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Of course they vary in quality. But a Strad always sounds like a Strad and a Guarnarius always sounds like a Guarnarious.
Some instruments are quick and others can't amplify it all.

[Mark Hennebury]

I find it quite curious, that they could get the same sound from instruments with what has been described as, somewhat random quality construction.
It would seem that minute differences would make changes, yet tearout and crudely cut parts etc are quite random in nature.

I would assume that these days musical instruments are done to extreme tolerances to reproduce the same sound quality in all instruments.

I have no knowledge of making instruments myself, but i do have several customers that make church organs and Harpsichords they use Maka mortisers for precision joinery and supersurfacers for skimming a few thou from parts.


Of course they vary in quality. But a Strad always sounds like a Strad and a Guarnarius always sounds like a Guarnarious.
Some instruments are quick and others can't amplify it all.

[Mel Fulks]

Extreme tolerances ,yes. But the wood is not all the same. This stuff has been studied obsessively for a long time. Clearly
we know more stuff now than they did ....but it's not "the right stuff". Studying the wood and thicknesses of the "plates "
has not yielded enough. Some instruments seem loud but can't be heard in the back of the room. While others seem
quiet close up but can be heard in the back of the hall.

[Andrew Seemann]

Explanations of musical instruments such as this make me wonder if the rough uneven surfaces on the inside created a more resonant tone from the reflection of sound waves than that achieved on a perfectly smoothed piece of wood.

jtk

It is possible it could have influence on tone. In general, instrument makers tend to be pretty obsessive about their soundboards. Interestingly, when it was noticed that historical soundboards were not a consistent thickness, it was thought that it was because of the "crude" methods they used to make them, i.e. hand tools, and that they obviously would have preferred an even thickness if they could have achieved it (the arrogance of the modern perspective). After realizing that the uneven thicknesses seemed to be very deliberate, when makers began to replicate them, they realized that it did have a positive impact on tone, and that the unevenness was intentional (maybe people brought up in a craft tradition who built instruments all their lives really did know what they were doing).

The problem lies in that you can infer and copy to excess, and instrument makers tend to be a superstitious lot (and that is from one:) ), so if copying one thing was good, then copying everything else must be better. Maybe the glue matters (maybe it doesn't), maybe planing vs sanding matters (maybe it doesn't), maybe iron vs brass bridge pins matters (maybe it doesn't). It is wise to keep in mind the story about the daughters and grandchildren who always cut their roast a certain way because "that is how grandma did it and her roasts tasted so good" while losing the history that grandma cut the roast that way to fit her oven, and they would have tasted even better if she didn't have to.

Some thing change the tone, some don't. Since instruments are very complex systems, they tend to defy simple analysis and easy modeling. A common theme on instrument discussion boards is having some engineer come in and say how they are going to figure out the engineering of an instrument and make it better, while all the makers say to themselves "here we go, yet again" (the engineers invariably give up in a few months, too complex they realize). Since it is very difficult to completely isolate the effects of any one variable of an instrument, you end up with normally mild and friendly instrument makers nearly getting into fist fights over discussions of nitro vs poly, hot hide glue vs titebond, fir vs spruce, and so on.

[Mark Hennebury]

Musical instrument making would seem to be an extremely complex, mystical craft, that originally must have been learned from experience and experimentation, and today I guess that they are still trying to understand all that is at play. There is of course a lot of difference from one piece of wood to another, All quite fascinating!

[Mel Fulks]

Andrew, well done. And unlike some instruments , the shapes of violins vary. The immersed truth seekers can discern an
Amati pattern ,or Strad pattern from across the room.

[Andrew Seemann]

I find it quite curious, that they could get the same sound from instruments with what has been described as, somewhat random quality construction.
It would seem that minute differences would make changes, yet tearout and crudely cut parts etc are quite random in nature.

I would assume that these days musical instruments are done to extreme tolerances to reproduce the same sound quality in all instruments.

I have no knowledge of making instruments myself, but i do have several customers that make church organs and Harpsichords they use Maka mortisers for precision joinery and supersurfacers for skimming a few thou from parts.

Actually for all the precision in modern instrument mass manufacturing, the instruments often don't sound exactly alike, even for successive instruments off the same assembly line made by the same workers using the same machines with wood from the same tree and hardware from the same batch. Don't get me wrong, in general the quality is much higher, especially for lower cost instruments. It isn't even that they don't necessarily sound good, they just sometimes sound slightly different, and sometimes a lot different. It tends to be more pronounced in acoustic instruments like say a violin, even more so in complex instruments like pianos and non-electronic organs, but even partially or fully electric/electronic instruments like electric guitars, amps, and keyboards can have variance from item to item.

[Mark Hennebury]

It would seem that is one rabbit hole that i would want to steer clear of; I am in enough trouble with basic furniture construction.



Actually for all the precision in modern instrument mass manufacturing, the instruments often don't sound exactly alike, even for successive instruments off the same assembly line made by the same workers using the same machines with wood from the same tree and hardware from the same batch. Don't get me wrong, in general the quality is much higher, especially for lower cost instruments. It isn't even that they don't necessarily sound good, they just sometimes sound slightly different, and sometimes a lot different. It tends to be more pronounced in acoustic instruments like say a violin, even more so in complex instruments like pianos and non-electronic organs, but even partially or fully electric/electronic instruments like electric guitars, amps, and keyboards can have variance from item to item.

[Mark Hennebury]

An interesting balance. Built to last by good design and economical use of materials.

Popularized in England, These Wavy Walls Actually Use Less Bricks Than a Straight Wall

https://twistedsifter.com/2020/06/how-wavy-crinkle-crankle-walls-use-less-bricks-than-straight-walls/ (https://twistedsifter.com/2020/06/how-wavy-crinkle-crankle-walls-use-less-bricks-than-straight-walls/)


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[Brian Holcombe]

I recall reading that Stradivarius violins are nothing to look at when taken apart. When you look at the old cabinetmaker journeyman daybooks it's clear that they had no time for making anything perfect that didn't show, but many of the surviving masterpieces of our craft were made under just such time pressure and close inspection proves it. I think the industrial revolution made societies more generally affluent and designer-craftsmen able to indulge their penchant for meticulous unseen work. Of course it also made way for the mountains of mass-produced crap shown in that brilliant "Man" video. Hail blessed, wretched excess!

There is a lot of truth in this, even for Chippendale estates (his company mainly outfitted castles). It's easier to do today because we have industrial equipment which processes material with greater ease when it is dimensionally perfect. It's actually much more difficult to work with a rough side.

[Brian Holcombe]

Actually for all the precision in modern instrument mass manufacturing, the instruments often don't sound exactly alike, even for successive instruments off the same assembly line made by the same workers using the same machines with wood from the same tree and hardware from the same batch. Don't get me wrong, in general the quality is much higher, especially for lower cost instruments. It isn't even that they don't necessarily sound good, they just sometimes sound slightly different, and sometimes a lot different. It tends to be more pronounced in acoustic instruments like say a violin, even more so in complex instruments like pianos and non-electronic organs, but even partially or fully electric/electronic instruments like electric guitars, amps, and keyboards can have variance from item to item.

I might be just making things up at this point but I believe that was in some way due to the 'quality control' aspect of their work in which someone highly aware of the sound of their instruments would have say-so in what went out the door.

Sort of like a cognac master blender.

[Kevin Jenness]

Did Stradivarius and Guarneri actually make the best-sounding violins? Apparently that's just, like, your opinion man. https://www.livescience.com/44651-new-violins-beat-stradivarius.html

[Jim Becker]

The fact that so many of them still sound so good after all this time is what's noteworthy to me...speaking as both a musician at points in my life as well as someone who makes things.

[Mel Fulks]

No, I'm not a musician. Think I've seen that info before ,but certain I forgot about it. Thanks for posting it. Glad good instruments are being
made. There is ,of course , a difference between accomplished players and the top tier. While most of us could enjoy
a good church violinist or "fiddler" at a hoe down. The great musicians have accurate and tender ears. And they don't
want listen to noise while they work. There are ,no doubt ,alley wine drinkers who love Ripple ....just like many of us.
But that does not mean that fine discerning palates should be ignored. Top tier ears can't tolerate less than the best instruments. And they can't get gigs without practice.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

As an experienced engineer (I guess old is relative but I'm getting there) this question has lived with me throughout my career.
The definition given for good enough in this thread seems odd to me. Good enough has never been a term I associated with calculating all loading aspects, applying design margins and trying to minimize material, cost and labor. Good enough is a term that often lacks a look at these aspects all for focus on one item such as quick or cheap.

I think the comparisons to the musical masters instruments is an interesting one. I could spend my entire life trying to develop overkill or the absolute best possible and never make something as good as these truly gifted people have been able to achieve with much less effort.

For those of us without the masterful gifts of the great architects, great instrument builders, or other true genius in their respective area, we must adhere to balancing as many aspects as possible to achieve our goals. The work we put into this is what will make it successful.

I was talking with a colleague at work once when I found out he also did woodwork. I was proud of building my furniture for my new babies (they're in college now) and some of my other projects. He listened and enjoyed the conversation. Later I found out that he builds fine woodwork that is the type you see the glossy magazine photos and sell for thousands and 10's of thousands of dollars. I could do all the overkill my talents and resources allow while never making a piece of furniture like he makes.

There's a spectrum and we all fit in there somewhere. The fact that my colleague made amazing fine furniture still required us and many many more technically talented to develop the systems that we do. Our woodworking likely didn't make us any more capable than our other colleagues (although I like to think it helps a little).

There have been strong arches in architecture that have fallen because the load became too large. There have been bridges of paper that supported all the loads that was ever needed for the purpose. There will always be the masters that show us a new way and their creations will stand the test of time. I'll continue to be amazed by the masters while trying to make my good enough a little better.

[Darcy Warner]

Been trying to do some finish trim work on my parents house, I am trying for just good enough because overkill would mean building them an entire new house.
Their house must have been built by the cheapest farmer ever, who obviously didn't own any levels, tape measures or string lines.

[Mark Hennebury]

That's Funny Darcy, Had to deal with plenty of that stuff myself. Thinking i would rather build a new place than finish renovations on my own place.


Been trying to do some finish trim work on my parents house, I am trying for just good enough because overkill would mean building them an entire new house.
Their house must have been built by the cheapest farmer ever, who obviously didn't own any levels, tape measures or string lines.

[Andrew Seemann]

Been trying to do some finish trim work on my parents house, I am trying for just good enough because overkill would mean building them an entire new house.
Their house must have been built by the cheapest farmer ever, who obviously didn't own any levels, tape measures or string lines.

I don't think my great-great-uncle made any houses out that way, but maybe it is possible:) Level and square were not hallmarks of his work.

[Darcy Warner]

I don't think my great-great-uncle made any houses out that way, but maybe it is possible:) Level and square were not hallmarks of his work.

It is what it is. It will be nicer then they ever had, but I won't feel too bad bull dozing it after they die.

[Andrew Seemann]

It is what it is. It will be nicer then they ever had, but I won't feel too bad bull dozing it after they die.

My grandmother's (now uncle's) house is like that. I have a lot of positive, sentimental memories of that house, but the many repairs I have had to do over the years are not particularly positive memories.

[Bill Dufour]

It is interesting to work on a older house with lath and plaster. There was no need for accurate stud spacing so who cared if they lined up every four feet or not. The lath was cut with a hatchet at the joints where ever they fell on a stud. And lath was more then four feet long anyway. Cabinets were built to fit the opening not the other way around. My sliding glass patio door was about 1/4" narrower then today's. So I had to pull a jack stud and replace it with one I planed down about 1/4".
Bil lD.

[Stan Calow]

My builder friends say that they cant build houses the way they would want to (overkill), because nobody would buy them. Price is the primary factor buyers look at, and buyers want bling not quality, to see that they get their money's worth.

[Mark Hennebury]

In reference to the two bridges; i don't know anything about them.
My reason for posting the bridges was simply that i saw the video of the bridge that collapsed, I don't know why or how,don't know the circumstances surrounding the collapse. It just seemed a fitting image that represented the direction that a lot of things in our society are going in. The cheap throw away mentality. I am sure that the Romans could have built a cheaper bridge, and just kept replacing it every couple of decades,instead they built it with a mindset of having it remain functional far into the future. Why?

Move ahead a few thousand years;
40 odd years ago a woodworker wandered into my shop and when he saw me making a small table with double mortise and tenon joints, he proceeded to tell me how it was not “necessary” to do mortise and tenons….at all, and that he had just made two small tables for a customer and had used screws and plugs, and made $150 an hour doing it.
My table was just a simple table, that i constructed the way i thought it should be made. Unnecessary excess to my visitors mind.

A few years back my friend outfitted his shop with new machinery, all brightly colored with flashing lights.
His panel saw needed replacement linkage parts within a couple of months.
My saw is from 1950, dull battleship grey,weighs a ton, just a solid well-built workhorse. It's been working for the past 70 years... so far, without needing any replacement parts. Built with a different mindset.

It would be interesting to see what Thomas Robinson ( the builder of my old saw) would think of my friends saw.
On my Saw, The threaded rod that tilts the saw is about 1-1/2" dia round bar with precision acme threaded lead screw with a huge block of brass for the nut, a massive cast iron gearbox, cast iron base and all cast iron parts.
On my friends saw the parts are all cheap off-the shelf mickey mouse stuff, one quarter the size or less, but it has a nice paint job, and flashy lights.
My guess someone put a lot of effort into building it so cheap, figuring how small they could make the parts and still have them work...until the 12 month warranty was up.

We have the technology to build better stuff more efficiently now than at any time in human history,
But it seems that we have gone from how well we can make things to how cheaply we can produce them.

[Darcy Warner]

It's all due to labor costs on that front Mark.

[Kev Williams]

Did Stradivarius and Guarneri actually make the best-sounding violins? Apparently that's just, like, your opinion man. https://www.livescience.com/44651-new-violins-beat-stradivarius.html
Reminds me of years ago when flat screen TV's were getting cheap and popular, there was lots of internet chatter about how they needed the colors 'tuned up', which brands tuned up best, which color graphs to use for self-tuning, which professionals to hire if you wanted it done right-- I always thought that was overkill since every TV network broadcasts differently, every movie director and TV show producer uses colors differently. 2 shows come to mind, the movie "Payback" filmed with so little color it's almost in black & white, and Miami Vice, where the colors are so overcooked it's almost like watching a live action cartoon. And as noted above, what looks good to one person may not look so good to someone else (my stepson tells me he doesn't like the yellows on our 70" Sharp Aquos Quattron, which has yellow pixels) ;)

My TV's get a one-time 'brightness-contrast-color-tint-sharpness' tweak about 1 minutes worth, never to be touched again :)