A2 Steel - Cryogenically Treated versus Not

[Mark R Webster]

Does any one know if Veritas treats their A2 plane irons cryogenically as does Hock and Lie Nielsen. It doesn't seem to be in their advertising write-ups. Has anyone here done a comparison between treated and untreated A2 and found there to be a discernible/significant difference while hand planing?
Thanks

[glenn bradley]

I have quite a few years experience with A2 and cryo irons for the same few planes. In practical use (meaning I've never setup any sort of experiment) if there is a difference it is not significant enough for me to have ever noticed. PM-v11 in the area of edge retention, conversely, requires no special skill to notice. I'm not trying to steer you; just adding info to the mix.

[Mark R Webster]

Do you think the cold treated irons are any harder to sharpen? How about brittleness. Any difference there? Just asking for your opinion Thanks

[glenn bradley]

I have IBC cryo's in a shoulder, bull nose and a small block. I ordered them with A2 and swap them pretty much without looking. I have not noticed any brittleness but, all of these planes are used for more detail oriented (gentle) work than something like a fore or a smoother. I just mention this to qualify my use experience.

[Mark R Webster]

Understand Thank!

[Vincent Tai]

Mark, if anything the cryo treated tools should be less brittle. Cryo treatment eliminates retained austenite (we want something called martensite in our tools) which is brittle. Retained austenite is austenite that did not transform into martensite upon quench (quench being an encompassing term for air cooling here). Last I checked (a few years ago) Veritas does not do cryo treatment. Lots of studies and tests for the knife world, not so much in ours. I haven't used A2 irons in a while but I did not notice differences in Veritas vs Lie Nielsen; I never used the tools in a side by side environment though.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Vincent

[Jim Matthews]

In my opinion, this method is not state of the art.

A2 is still more difficult to hone than fine O1 yet nowhere near so keen (or durable) as powdered steels.

As a lifetime user if vintage O1 irons I can say Veritas PM V-11 and Carpenter XHP are worthy of the hype and cost.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Jim

[Larry Frank]

Jim Matthews could you clarify your comment "In my opinion, this method is not state of the art."

what were you referring to?

[Mateo Furbacchione]

Does any one know if Veritas treats their A2 plane irons cryogenically as does Hock and Lie Nielsen. It doesn't seem to be in their advertising write-ups. Has anyone here done a comparison between treated and untreated A2 and found there to be a discernible/significant difference while hand planing?
Thanks

Cryogenics and tempering steel has been around for decades and your question has been asked over that time many many times. Conclusion is there is no conclusive evidence. Some studies say yes, and some say no to there being any real benefit. For the hobby woodworker, you'd be very hard pressed to notice a benefit other than to the manufacturers wallet when they charge extra for it.

[Mateo Furbacchione]

In my opinion, this method is not state of the art.

A2 is still more difficult to hone than fine O1 yet nowhere near so keen (or durable) as powdered steels.

As a lifetime user if vintage O1 irons I can say Veritas PM V-11 and Carpenter XHP are worthy of the hype and cost.


I replaced my O1 block plane blade with a PM11 blade and there was quite a noticeable difference in how it stood up to old paint when cleaning up joints onsite by comparison to the original O1 blade. It also stands up well to aussie hardwoods by comparison to the old blade. Had to trim some mitres in some god awful gumwood and it kept a useably sharp edge through out. Whereas most other steels die a quick death on gumwood.

However, probably the best steel I have come across has been D2. Many years ago I bought a few D2 blades with the notion of: you never know... I ended up pulling out one to make an eliptical blade to plane shutter blades. I hand planed over 300 of them from 5/8" finger joint pine into curved blades. It crashed through knots and glue joints many times and I think I only rehoned 3 times. Mostly because I thought I should, not because the blade was dull as it would still grab the nail when checked. It just wouldn't go dull.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks for our response I appreciate the input.

[Mark R Webster]

Very helpful thanks. Never used D2

[Jim Matthews]

Jim Matthews could you clarify your comment "In my opinion, this method is not state of the art."

what were you referring to?

Powdered steel formulations for woodworking applications produce a durable, keen edge with standard honing methods.

A2 tool steel gives great edge quality for the money but is nowhere near so durable as XHP from Carpenter of Pm V-11 from Veritas in a blade honed to the same cutting angle from a blank of uniform thickness.

My experience with XHP hardened to Rockwell 60 is that it grinds slowly (longer time on the Coarse India stone) but hones quickly (on a Lily white *medium* Arkansas stone).

My experience with ECE Chrome vanadium steel and LN A2 steel was the opposite - quick grinding, slow honing with the blade requiring more frequent sharpening.

The powdered (sintered) steels are that good.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Jim

[Tom M King]

Why does anyone still buy A2 by preference?

[Erich Weidner]

Why does anyone still buy A2 by preference?


So, unless I missed something if you want a LN or BS product, you get A2 as that is all they offer, right? So maybe not a preference, but a lack of options.

[Tom M King]

I understand that, but it's still a valid question. I won't buy anything (again) with an A2 cutter.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If you insist on A2 steel, all of my opinions are based on what I have read, not on actual experience. So, some opinions of people you may trust:

Ron Hock at Hock tools says yes, do it, your edge will last longer:
http://www.hocktools.com/tech-info/o1-vs-a2.html


In this journal article (https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/shopmanagement/cryogenic-processingadispelling-the-myths-mysteries) it states, as a very small excerpt from the journal:


“When it closes the grain structure, it fills in all the microvoids in the steel, which are the weak spots—this is where the blades would chip and break,” Bond agreed. “Eliminating the microvoids makes the tooling tougher.”
“We can actually measure the increase in carbides using a particle counter, which counts particles up to 1 micron in size,” Paulin said. “Heat-treated A2 steel typically has 30,000 particles per mm2. After cryogenic treatment, A2 typically has 83,000 particles per mm2. Closing the interstitial gaps makes the material denser, stronger, and more able to resist loading, orimpact force,” he said.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Andrew for the references!

[Bob Jones 5443]

And so I’ve learned...what? Stay away from Lie-Nielsen bench chisels?

[Jim Koepke]

From Ron Hock's web site:


To strengthen the edge we recommend a larger bevel angle for A2 than we would use for O1. For a bench plane iron, try your A2 blade at about 30° or 33°. A chisel or block plane blade can be even steeper; try 35° or so and see if edge retention is improved.

Why would someone want an A2 blade in a low angle block plane if you need to use an angle to make your effective working angle steeper than a bench plane?

It would be great if O1 or PM v-11 blades were available for my LN planes.

jtk