Is This Adequate Electrical?

[DIXON LAM]

I’m looking to put a hybrid TS in the garage of a condo I’m renting. It’s old construction, there’s no 220v and there’s a fuse panel in the garage which houses a 20a breaker and single 20a fuse, see attached photo. I have verified with the property manager there’s no other panel in the unit. Assuming that fuse is for the entire unit :eek: do I have enough juice to run something like a 13a, 110v contractor saw without tripping every time it’s used?

https://i.postimg.cc/YSDhhNsy/FA3-A1-FE0-517-C-405-C-931-C-465-D3-C6-BC742.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Mark Hennebury]

Give it a shot... whats the worst that can happen?

[Brice Rogers]

IIRC, there used to be fast blow (FB) and slow blow (SB) fuses. Because of the start-up current surge, pick up a box of SB fuses.

[DIXON LAM]

Since it’s nearly 300lbs and will require help and a truck, I’d rather find out whether it’s feasible before going through the hassle.

[Jamie Buxton]

If you really have 20 amps available at that outlet you will be fine with a 13 amp saw. (Yes, it is true that the saw may draw more than 13 amps for a second or two during startup. But breakers and fuses take a little while to blow when they're loaded only a little beyond their nominal limit. The designers know about startup surges.)

[Kris Cook]

When you say "unit" are you referring to the garage or the entire condo?

[Frank Pratt]

Get some time delay, or slow blow fuses to help deal with the starting current of the saw. Given that the whole unit only has 2 circuits, be prepared to change the fused a lot. And turn off everything else in the house off when you want to have some shop time.

[DIXON LAM]

When you say "unit" are you referring to the garage or the entire condo?

The entire condo.

[Jamie Buxton]

The entire condo.

Ah, so you probably don't have the entire 20 amps available for the saw. That 20 amps may also supply a refrigerator, maybe some lighting, maybe some entertainment electronics, and other stuff. Only you are in a position to know what else might be on that circuit.

[DIXON LAM]

The refrigerator is the only major appliance I can think of that’s always on. Other than that, electronics, lights and anything else plugged in would remain off while I’m working in the garage. I don’t plan on cutting anything beyond 4/4 so the motor should rarely have to work hard. I’ll also look into the slow blow fuses.

[David L Morse]

It's easy enough to test. Unscrew the fuses one at a time and see what doesn't work. Of course you'll want to have a working flashlight with you.;) You also might have some clocks to reset.

Tablesaw or not, it's always a good idea to know what's on each branch circuit.

[Bill Dufour]

The fridge should be on it's own fuse with nothing else. maybe a high mount clock outlet in the kitchen shared with it. In fact you probably have one for lights and one for outlets.
Bil lD

[Frank Pratt]

The fridge should be on it's own fuse with nothing else. maybe a high mount clock outlet in the kitchen shared with it. In fact you probably have one for lights and one for outlets.
Bil lD

There are many things that should be on their own circuit, but it's pretty obvious that this is, electrically speaking, an ancient house that has not had the wiring upgraded.

[Kris Cook]

There are many things that should be on their own circuit, but it's pretty obvious that this is, electrically speaking, an ancient house that has not had the wiring upgraded.

Yeah - Wow - I was hoping I misunderstood the original "unit" reference. Your property owner didn't exactly get carried away when divvying up the juice. You could probably run the saw but not much else. Maybe time for some wind or solar power...:eek:

Actually, if you are serious, this might be the place for one of the high output battery powered tablesaws like the Dewalt. I don't know that much about them but do know the battery technology is here. Charge the batteries elsewhere and maybe get some work done. Otherwise, its hard to imagine getting much done when your whole electrical existence is relying on a 20 amp circuit - slow blow or not.

[DIXON LAM]

I have a track saw for long panels. Guess I'll look into hand tools for everything else.

[Bill Dufour]

With the cost of fuses today I would replace that fuse box with a breaker box. Probably find something used on craigs list. It should cost less then the price of two boxes of fuses.
Bil lD

You can buy a new panel for $15 from Hoe Depot. Double that for two breakers. or get a used panel with breakers on ebay. Probably pay more for shipping then a new panel and breakers would cost.

[Jim Becker]

With the cost of fuses today I would replace that fuse box with a breaker box. Probably find something used on craigs list. It should cost less then the price of two boxes of fuses.
He doesn't own the property...

[Frank Pratt]

With the cost of fuses today I would replace that fuse box with a breaker box. Probably find something used on craigs list. It should cost less then the price of two boxes of fuses.
Bil lD

You can buy a new panel for $15 from Hoe Depot. Double that for two breakers. or get a used panel with breakers on ebay. Probably pay more for shipping then a new panel and breakers would cost.

He doesn't own the property and it may not be as simple as just replacing a panel. That is the main service entrance & changing the main service, in many jurisdictions, requires that the entire electrical system be brought up to, or near to, current code.

[mike stenson]

He doesn't own the property and it may not be as simple as just replacing a panel. That is the main service entrance & changing the main service, in many jurisdictions, requires that the entire electrical system be brought up to, or near to, current code.

This, see my signature for more elaboration ;) Seriously, that can become a nightmare depending on jurisdiction, etc.

[Bill Dufour]

I see he is in San Francisco so it will be major money to get it approved. It is not to code as it is since SF requires conduit or mc cable everywhere. I do not know if they allow plastic conduit or not but, I doubt it. You are not allowed to pump your own gas there either.
Bil lD

[Jim Dwight]

I think the suggestion to pull the fuses and see if anything still works is something I would do. I noticed you said that the property managers input says all your stuff will go off but I would not be surprised if circuits are shared between units.

My track saw, a DeWalt, pulls 12 or 13A. I think inrush between a universal and induction motor are different but using the track saw may tell you something about whether this will work.

Three houses ago I had a single 15A shared circuit (garage and 3 bathrooms) and that did not work for my table saw. I put in a 20A circuit for the garage/shop. My guess is this will work but only if you can limit other loads fairly severely.

To whoever commented about a dedicated circuit for a refrigerator you should be aware that is a recent requirement and many houses do not meet it. It is also not a NEC requirement that it be dedicated unless it is a 15A circuit. A 20 A circuit can be branched according to the current NEC. Modern frigs are quite small loads (1-2A) and a dedicated circuit is just not necessary - other than if it is a building code requirement. But one circuit for a condo hasn't met code for a long time, perhaps forever.

[Steve Fish]

Is it possible that what you see is acting as a sub panel that just runs the garage. Maybe the manager doesn’t really know or he’s pulling your chain. I’m only asking because that seems a little stingy for a whole residence. Heck, my grandfather’s single story 2 bedroom cape had a 50 amp service that looked similar to what’s in your picture. I’m told that was built on a shoe string budget back in the 30’s

[Matthew Hills]

I run my table saw from a 20A shared circuit.

Things to watch for:
- any other loads (i.e., don't use a toaster oven, microwave, or dust collector on the same circuit at the same time).
- may still have issues in a really thick cut or if the wood pinches your blade

Having spare fuses on hand is a good idea.

Matt

[Robert Engel]

Hard to believe that is the service for entire unit.

I've seen houses built 75 years ago that had 50A services.

[mike stenson]

Hard to believe that is the service for entire unit.

I've seen houses built 75 years ago that had 50A services.

I've lived in more than a few houses that had 20amp service. Back when all you were doing was lighting a home, that's all you needed.

[Bill Dufour]

At least the outlet is grounded and GFCI. My family house built around 1950 has a 40 amp panel. No ground wires beyond the main panel. Of course no air conditioning needed in the San Francisco area and only gas heat and stoves.
Bil lD.
On edit. That GFCI may not be grounded, but it would be legal and safer then just a grounded outlet