Marking knives for joinery

[Derek Cohen]

These are some the knives I have collected over the years and use for laying out joinery. Obviously not all at the same time :)


Three popular knives - these ones get a lot of use. From the top down ... Swann-Morton fixed blade, Stanley swivel blade, and a Swann-Morton craft knife which was my grandfather's. This one is about 60 years old (except for the screw). They all use disposable blades (which are easy to resharpen, which I do) ...


https://i.postimg.cc/W1hjhYSn/Knife2a.jpg


These ones are a little more up market. All made by Chris Vesper. The top two are heavy duty knives, one in Tasmanian Blackwood and the other in 10000 year-old Black Red Gum. The lower two are dovetail knives, designed (by myself) for marking dovetails. The lower one has an extra thin blade for the slimmest dovetails. These knives are the ones I tend to use when dovetailing ...


https://i.postimg.cc/6QZXh7k4/Knife5a.jpg


The last three here are Japanese kiridashi. The top is one I handled. The middle one is the one I prefer and use mostly. The lower one is used for reaching into small areas. The advantage of the unhandled kiridashi is that they can more easily register on the backs of the blades ...


https://i.postimg.cc/dVpFdRxK/Knife3a.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Andrew Seemann]

Nice knives! I stopped using knives and went back to pencils, when I realized that a larger pencil line I could see was more useful than a more accurate knife line I couldn't:)

[chris carter]

And then at the completely opposite end of the spectrum, I present the humble steak knife turned marking knife....
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[glenn bradley]

Thanks for that Derek. It is good to see how other folks gravitate to the knives that feel best for certain tasks. My heavy knife is the old Utilitas that Lee Valley used to sell (maybe they still do). My general use marking knife is a FlexCut "Detail Knife". I find it odd that I reach for this one so often as it is a double beveled affair. Others are in the same slotted drawer and come out for their tasks. Ones that have fallen out of favor end up in a drawer across the shop waiting for me to find them a new or better home.

[Jim Koepke]

My knives are a bit more humble in origin. My first marking knife was a box cutter until a group of plane blades and other things were purchased that had a piece of a broken knife included. That became my first shop made marking knife:

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It is the one on top. The one on the bottom was made from an old plane blade. It eventually had wood scales added for comfort.

Another knife was made from a piece of saw blade:

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It is good for getting into tight places. The handle is a piece of rosewood turned on my lathe. The ferrule is from a tubing connector.

My last knife is my most used knife. It was made from what was left of the old plane blade. Here are my knives in a group photo:

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The build thread of the one with an ebony handle is here > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?229968 < The rounded area in the blade for the cap screw head actually makes a comfortable finger rest when used right handed.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I mostly use Japanese single bevel knives and violin knives. A luthier friend uses violin knives and had made a case for each of his knives that can be used to protect the edge or to hold the knife while he's using it (by reversing the knife in the case).

This inspired me so I made cases for my knives. The problem is that the Japanese knives are not "regular". That is, each one is a different thickness and the thickness varies along the length of the knife. I had to fit each knife to it's case. Then I had to mark the knife and case so that I put the right one back into the right case, otherwise they wouldn't fit. I only use them out of the cases, unlike my luthier friend who sometimes uses them with the knife in the case.

The violin knives are regular and precise so any knife fits any case. In case you would like to get a violin knife, you can purchase them from Southwest Strings (https://www.swstrings.com/product/lutherie/any/R205K). They come in different widths but are all double bevel. They're a good bit less expensive than Japanese knives.

Mike


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[Derek Cohen]

My knives are a bit more humble in origin. My first marking knife was a box cutter until a group of plane blades and other things were purchased that had a piece of a broken knife included. That became my first shop made marking knife:


Jim, you are very modest. I suspect that many of us have done just this. This was one of the first ones I made ...

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/.highres/Markingknife.jpg


I made so many dovetail knives, some were some and most were gifts ...

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/.highres/Markingknives7.jpg

About 5 or so years ago, Chris Vesper asked if he could use my design. He is a good friend, and so he has been making them since (I have no financial part of this).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

Jim, you are very modest. I suspect that many of us have done just this. This was one of the first ones I made ...

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/.highres/Markingknife.jpg


I made so many dovetail knives, some were some and most were gifts ...

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/.highres/Markingknives7.jpg

About 5 or so years ago, Chris Vesper asked if he could use my design. He is a good friend, and so he has been making them since (I have no financial part of this).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Nice grouping of knives and I'm also the proud owner and user of a "Cohen knife"!

T

[Curt Putnam]

Nice knives! I stopped using knives and went back to pencils, when I realized that a larger pencil line I could see was more useful than a more accurate knife line I couldn't:)

Mostly, I can no longer see a fine knife line either so I use a few tricks.

* - Derek's blue tape trick is very useful for defining where the line is
* - Knife the line and before you remove the tape, rule, or square follow up with a 0.5 mm pencil
* - When I need to hit a specific measure that I cannot gauge, I lay the square across a flat tape and then pencil, knife, or both

High contrast is the key

[Jim Matthews]

I recently setup a R. Murphy knife from the venerable Massachusetts company. The hefty "barrel" and positive fitting for the blade makes it easy to manipulate, even with creaky joints.

More delicate knives always gave me fits.

The steel in the blade is nothing special, although it us tempered.

[Jim Koepke]

Seeing a knifed line can be difficult even for young eyes.

A carpenters pencil with the flat edge cut to a chisel point on fine sandpaper can follow a knifed line quite well. Makes it a lot easier to see and it stays accurate.

jtk

[Bob Jones 5443]

Jim, Derek, others: I use Ron Hock's wider (3/4") spear point marking knife. What are your tips for sharpening it? I don't have a Tormek jig it will fit on, nor a honing guide for a skew setting. I know that Veritas guide can hold it. I owned one 15 years ago, but I tossed it when I took up using the Eclipse. But now this spear point knife...

Ideas for me that don't involved another $100 just now? I feel a "hand-held honing" recommendation coming on.

[Tony Wilkins]

Jim, Derek, others: I use Ron Hock's wider (3/4") spear point marking knife. What are your tips for sharpening it? I don't have a Tormek jig it will fit on, nor a honing guide for a skew setting. I know that Veritas guide can hold it. I owned one 15 years ago, but I tossed it when I took up using the Eclipse. But now this spear point knife...

Ideas for me that don't involved another $100 just now? I feel a "hand-held honing" recommendation coming on.

without spending too much money, I think handheld is the way to go. Shouldn’t be too hard either, just ride the flat bevels on all three sides (back last) and make sure the point stays pretty much in the middle (and I’m not sure that’s even that critical). Other option would be to carefully create some wooden inserts for the eclipse jig to keep it in the right position for each face.

[Jim Matthews]

A jeweler's ring clamp is handy for holding things like this. I use one for sharpening plow plane blades.

They're about $10.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, Derek, others: I use Ron Hock's wider (3/4") spear point marking knife. What are your tips for sharpening it? I don't have a Tormek jig it will fit on, nor a honing guide for a skew setting. I know that Veritas guide can hold it. I owned one 15 years ago, but I tossed it when I took up using the Eclipse. But now this spear point knife...

Ideas for me that don't involved another $100 just now? I feel a "hand-held honing" recommendation coming on.

Bob, there are two ways you can hone there small bevels. The first is to build a jig (out of wood) to hold the blade at the angle and skew you want. The example here uses a honing guide, however you can use blocks of wood, etc ..

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/.highres/Sharpeningkiridashi2.jpg

Here is a block of wood guide ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System_html_m6d669a ba.gif


The other way is to freehand a rounded bevel - similar method as used by Paul Sellers. That is easier than trying to keep the tiny bevel flat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Here is mine. I have 2 mill knives one ground single bevel right and one left. The same for the exacto’s. The rest are more or less in order of use. The mill knives are used the most. Not good of course for dovetails but for most things are great in arthritic hands. The knife on the right end is good for plastics but it cuts on both ends, usually me that gets cut.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Mostly, I can no longer see a fine knife line either so I use a few tricks.

* - Derek's blue tape trick is very useful for defining where the line is
* - Knife the line and before you remove the tape, rule, or square follow up with a 0.5 mm pencil
* - When I need to hit a specific measure that I cannot gauge, I lay the square across a flat tape and then pencil, knife, or both

High contrast is the key

The angle of light matters too. Bright overhead lights sometimes make knife lines disappear. So I keep a camping headlamp in the shop. I can sit it on a surface and provide raking light over a critical knife mark, making them very easy to see.

[Derek Cohen]

Seeing a knifed line can be difficult even for young eyes.

A carpenters pencil with the flat edge cut to a chisel point on fine sandpaper can follow a knifed line quite well. Makes it a lot easier to see and it stays accurate.

jtk

Jim, no matter how careful you are with a pencil, the line will inevitably be thicker than a knifed line. One can work to the edge of a line, but a knifed line can register a chisel or a knife edge when using a square to continue it.

I have long wanted to know more about how Japanese woodworkers use a sumitsubo. A centre line is marked (rather than using a reference side) and then they work from each side of the line. But this inked line has thickness. How does this work?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Luter]

My selection is pretty simple. On top is a Veritas I got years ago. It’s pretty sturdy and works well on the White Oak I use often. In the middle is a Czeck edge I got at a LN tool event in Cincinnati a few years back. It’s my preferred choice for fine grained woods. On the bottom is a home brew I made from a scroll saw blade and a scrap of Brazilian Rosewood. It’s very thin and was intended for dovetails. It serves its purpose pretty well.


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[steven c newman]

X-acto knives..
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Rather than this Kobalt.....blades are too thick on the Kobalt....but..
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When the edge gets dull on this little knife, I can simply replace it with a brand new one.....packs of 5 are fairly cheap...small handle is about the same as holding a pencil.

[Tony Zaffuto]

X-acto knives..
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Rather than this Kobalt.....blades are too thick on the Kobalt....but..
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When the edge gets dull on this little knife, I can simply replace it with a brand new one.....packs of 5 are fairly cheap...small handle is about the same as holding a pencil.

Similar to what Joel/Tools for Working Wood sells. I have several laying around (cheap) and they work well!

[Jim Koepke]

Seeing a knifed line can be difficult even for young eyes.

A carpenters pencil with the flat edge cut to a chisel point on fine sandpaper can follow a knifed line quite well. Makes it a lot easier to see and it stays accurate.

jtk


Jim, no matter how careful you are with a pencil, the line will inevitably be thicker than a knifed line. One can work to the edge of a line, but a knifed line can register a chisel or a knife edge when using a square to continue it.

I have long wanted to know more about how Japanese woodworkers use a sumitsubo. A centre line is marked (rather than using a reference side) and then they work from each side of the line. But this inked line has thickness. How does this work?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, you may have misunderstood my comment on using a pencil in the knifed line. Here is an example:

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The lines were first made with a knife. The one on the right was made with the saw blade marking knife. The other two were made with the plane blade marking knife using different pressure for a light line in the middle and a heave line on the left. The pencil is not a carpenter's pencil, it is an artist pencil, if my memory is working it is likely a 2B (soft) lead. It was sharpened to a chisel point before marking the bottom half of the lines. Normally a carpenter's pencil is used, but this one was on the bench.

On dark wood, rubbing chalk into the line makes it stand out to be seen.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, I use a 0.5mm pencil. The lines are fine, and remain so. The issue I have with thicker pencils is that they need to be sharpened all the time to keep the line fine. As I mentioned earlier, the advantage of a knifed line, in addition to being and staying fine, is that it has a defined registration point.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Jim, I use a 0.5mm pencil. The lines are fine, and remain so. The issue I have with thicker pencils is that they need to be sharpened all the time to keep the line fine. As I mentioned earlier, the advantage of a knifed line, in addition to being and staying fine, is that it has a defined registration point.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Derek I agree with you on knifed lines. I was just expressing how some very accurate markings can be made with pencils. A discussion could be good. That is why I started another thread about sumitsubo use and centerline marking.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, I saw that - thanks for the new thread :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mike stenson]

Nice grouping of knives and I'm also the proud owner and user of a "Cohen knife"!

T

Yep, me too. It's the thinnest, narrowest marking knife I own, so it gets the 'hard to reach' jobs.

[Kevin Groenke]

My go-to knife for marking has always been the humble x-acto knife. I recently came across Matt Estlea's iteration (https://mattestlea.com/blog/the-story-of-my-marking-knives/) of David Barron's marking knife design (https://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/furniture-cabinetmaking/projects/hand-tools/knives/make-a-dovetail-knife/). This knife uses the Swann Morton SM 01-04 Craft Blades (https://www.craftknives.co.uk/product/sm00-handle#sparesheader) that Derek included in his knife compendium at the top of this thread. These blades are replaceable like an x-acto blade but slightly thicker, stiffer and longer: they are slim enough to get into tight spaces but tough enough to do a fair amount of corner clean-up. These blades come in a few shapes, but the 01 version in which the cutting edge is parallel to the handle somehow seems more useful than the typical V shaped craft knife blades. These blades are double beveled, so some people will not find them suitable for some tasks (like transfering dovetails) - I've always found it more comfortable to rotate a double bevel knife right or left rather than upwards like you have to do with a single bevel knife.

I wanted to purchase a knife from Matt, but he has been out of stock for a while, has a wait list, and seems to be focused on other projects at the moment. Since Matt admittedly took inspiration from David (ie:copied) I figured it was not unreasonable to take inspiration from Matt and make a version of my own (ie:copied). I've been having fun tweaking the design a bit, finally using scraps of exotic woods from the bins, and figuring out some processes for making in small batches. I gave the handle a slim cigar shape with flats on both sides which keeps it from rolling off the bench and gives a reference to the orientation of the blade. To me this shape feels good in the hand and has a nice balance: it is on the delicate side, but I don't tend to work a knife too hard, so I don't see this as a problem. Making a batch of these gave me an excuse to add a small Unimat metal lathe to the tool arsenal but doing that has me thinking I should try to cover the cost of the new tool by selling some of the knifes. So far I've made a batch of 20 which will mostly go to friends and colleagues. I'm on to a second batch of 20 which should be closer to perfect: some of them will probably end up on one of those auction sites. I also ordered a single beveled knife so we'll see if that rocks my world in which case this whole thing will have been a bit of a goose chase.

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[Jack Frederick]

Timely. I am going to try a couple saw/plane blade marking knives. Not sure of configuration yet and just bought some hardware from Texas Knife Supply. I hope to have a few done by Christmas for gifts.

[Mike Henderson]

My go-to knife for marking has always been the humble x-acto knife. I recently came across Matt Estlea's iteration (https://mattestlea.com/blog/the-story-of-my-marking-knives/) of David Barron's marking knife design (https://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/furniture-cabinetmaking/projects/hand-tools/knives/make-a-dovetail-knife/). This knife uses the Swann Morton SM 01-04 Craft Blades (https://www.craftknives.co.uk/product/sm00-handle#sparesheader) that Derek included in his knife compendium at the top of this thread. These blades are replaceable like an x-acto blade but slightly thicker, stiffer and longer: they are slim enough to get into tight spaces but tough enough to do a fair amount of corner clean-up. These blades come in a few shapes, but the 01 version in which the cutting edge is parallel to the handle somehow seems more useful than the typical V shaped craft knife blades. These blades are double beveled, so some people will not find them suitable for some tasks (like transfering dovetails) - I've always found it more comfortable to rotate a double bevel knife right or left rather than upwards like you have to do with a single bevel knife.

I wanted to purchase a knife from Matt, but he has been out of stock for a while, has a wait list, and seems to be focused on other projects at the moment. Since Matt admittedly took inspiration from David (ie:copied) I figured it was not unreasonable to take inspiration from Matt and make a version of my own (ie:copied). I've been having fun tweaking the design a bit, finally using scraps of exotic woods from the bins, and figuring out some processes for making in small batches. I gave the handle a slim cigar shape with flats on both sides which keeps it from rolling off the bench and gives a reference to the orientation of the blade. To me this shape feels good in the hand and has a nice balance: it is on the delicate side, but I don't tend to work a knife too hard, so I don't see this as a problem. Making a batch of these gave me an excuse to add a small Unimat metal lathe to the tool arsenal but doing that has me thinking I should try to cover the cost of the new tool by selling some of the knifes. So far I've made a batch of 20 which will mostly go to friends and colleagues. I'm on to a second batch of 20 which should be closer to perfect: some of them will probably end up on one of those auction sites. I also ordered a single beveled knife so we'll see if that rocks my world in which case this whole thing will have been a bit of a goose chase.

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Did you make that brass blade holder, or is it something you purchase? If so, where? I'd like to make a couple of those knives.

Mike

[Jeff Ranck]

Wow! Everyone has so many marking knives. I only have a chip carving knife that I use, although I may pick up one/make one based on the swann morton blades or maybe a kiridashi. Or maybe I'll just keep using what works for me. :)

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[Kevin Groenke]

Hello Mike, I am making the brass collets from scratch on a little Unimat lathe. I may be open to selling the collet assemblies from an upcoming batch, but at this point I'm not very efficient and using non-production equipment so cost might be prohibitive.


https://www.facebook.com/kevin.groenke/videos/10217623687080346/