Prices of Japanese natural stones

[Rafael Herrera]

Supposing you're a wealthy woodworker, would you consider paying US$9000 or US$7500 for a Japanese natural stone? While browsing on Ebay I noticed two offerings for "Junma Masamoto Motoyama Zhongshan Special Satin Pattern" and a "Pure Shinsei Motoyama Board Zhongshan", I'm not sure if these are real prices that people will pay for, I found a site were some jnats go for $3k. Perhaps there is a special kind of satisfaction sharpening tools on these stones, similar to that of planing with a £10k new infill hand plane, or driving a US$180k Mercedes. It's a goofy world.

Rafael

(Am I allowed to post screen shots of Ebay? I'll remove them if they are not kosher)

433475 433476

[Matt Riegerix]

I too wonder if that's a price a woodworker would pay?
Surely these prices are for collectors, if there is such a thing as waterstone collectors.

[Jim Matthews]

The mystique associated with some of these is untestable... only those with a sufficiently advanced technique could get the best results.

PM V-11 or Carpenter XHP takes the Alchemist out of the loop using slightly more affordable abrasives.

[Mel Fulks]

I've always thought they were only used on razors.

[Rafael Herrera]

When I read reviews from the razor and knife guys, I get the impression they don't have a clue as to what they are dealing with, they rarely bother to investigate the nature of the stones they're testing. The focus is on their feelings about the edge they get, an "i don't know what" that each reviewer conjures that makes an stone special.

[ken hatch]

First I would not buy a JNat off eBay. Instead I would go to a seller that had a reputation and had a know history. Working JNats, ones not collector grade, are still reasonable. The biggest problem with buying JNats is unless you have a dealer that will help you you can end up kissing a lot of frogs.

ken

[brian zawatsky]

That’s insanity. I have a bit of a Jnat habit, I like to buy different stones to try them. When I accumulate more than I can reasonably use, I sell some. It’s (almost) self perpetuating. That said I RARELY ever pay more than $200 for a stone.

[John Keeton]

There is, and always has been, a segment of the population that takes an inordinate pride in owning material goods that are unaffordable to the masses. One could draw multiple conclusions about those folks, most of which may not be flattering.

[Jim Matthews]

*Flattening* neither.

[Frederick Skelly]

There is, and always has been, a segment of the population that takes an inordinate pride in owning material goods that are unaffordable to the masses. One could draw multiple conclusions about those folks, most of which may not be flattering.

John,
That is so true and so well said that I've saved it to a file for later use (attributed to you, of course).
Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

There is, and always has been, a segment of the population that takes an inordinate pride in owning material goods that are unaffordable to the masses. One could draw multiple conclusions about those folks, most of which may not be flattering.

If they do, they certainly aren’t public about it. This is similar to driving on the highway in which the person faster than yourself is a maniac and the one slower is too careful. We all are owners of things that others would choose not to afford. One might moralize that, buy really it’s those folks as you mention that keep dealers busy and make this venture profitable for them and often enough are there to help one out with a purchase during hard times.

[Rafael Herrera]

I've always been of the frame of mind of thriftyness when it comes to woodworking, yet in the pursuit of an affluent customer to pay well for a well made piece of work. I guess to each his/her own, get off on your 10k pounds infill plane, it went well for the maker I suppose. It's ridiculous at the same time.

[Jim Koepke]

My finest water stone is a Norton 8000. It is able to put an edge on steel capable of smoothly shaving hair from my arm. Often has my heart skipped a beat or two dreaming of what could be done with a finer, higher priced stone.

In the last few years better Arkansas stones have been purchased. Amazing how with these ancient geological relics are also able to produce an edge capable of shaving arm hair.

My lust for finer stones has waned a bit. There seems to be no promise a finer stone can make to justify such a purchase for my shop.

For thousands of dollars, imo, that stone would have to be darn near magical in its abilities at working an edge.

jtk

[John Keeton]

We all are owners of things that others would choose not to afford.
True, Brian, but you have ignored or avoided the qualifying phrase in my post - “a segment of the population that takes an inordinate pride...”. It is the “inordinate pride” that is concerning to me. You may have differing opinions.

[James Pallas]

I often find things interesting to investigate. The price of tool is what it is worth to the user. I have often thought “why is that tool so expensive”. Sometimes I just want to know if the tool would be of value to me or if in my view I’m satisfied with what I have. If my inquisitive mind gets the better of me I search out someone who has the tool and go see for myself. I have purchased tools that I have at first thought “no way would I pay that price”. In the mean time I don’t question the buyers of such tools. After seeing the tool in use I many times decide that it is not for me because I can do the work equally or better with what I have.

[Brian Holcombe]

John, I respect your viewpoint but I’m willing to give the benefit of a doubt. Most often I feel that this is a case of ‘either/or’ choices more than anything else. Example being perhaps someone buys their sought after sharpening stone but decides not to take a vacation, etc.

My point, is that it’s easy to take something like sharpening stones or infill planes and consider it excessive, but I suppose I simply see it as indicators that demand for such things is strong and in the case of something like infill planes I’m glad to see someone patronizing a talented maker at a level that allows them to stretch their legs a bit.

[John Keeton]

Brian and James, I understand what you are saying and agree, but again, it is the "inordinate pride" that is concerning.

When you show me your new tool, car, whatever, if the first words out of your mouth are the cost instead of how well it works; how beautiful it is; how much it means to you; how this adds to a collection that is an important hobby of yours; how it will change your life or the lives of those you care about; or, in some manner benefit mankind other than just transferring wealth, then I become suspect and get the feeling that the pride you have is simply because you have the object and need to impress me with the cost.

Instead, I would love to hear how the good Lord has blessed you with resources for which you are thankful, and how much the new toy means to you.

As an artist and a woodworker, I have a great appreciation for art, for the craftsmanship one puts into their work, for ingenuity and invention and the commercial aspect of those items being sought by others. All of those things create the capitalistic system we have and for which I am grateful. To put it plainly, I just do not like the "snob factor." It isn't my job to judge folks, but the conclusions I draw from their behavior are mine - you may have yours and they may differ.

I will leave it at that in an effort to let this thread be about the OP's comments.

[Jim Koepke]

True, Brian, but you have ignored or avoided the qualifying phrase in my post - “a segment of the population that takes an inordinate pride...”. It is the “inordinate pride” that is concerning to me. You may have differing opinions.

My "inordinate pride" is usually focused on how something was acquired for a ridiculously low price. Though some of my bobbles were purchased at retail and receive as much pride.


I often find things interesting to investigate. The price of tool is what it is worth to the user. I have often thought “why is that tool so expensive”. Sometimes I just want to know if the tool would be of value to me or if in my view I’m satisfied with what I have. If my inquisitive mind gets the better of me I search out someone who has the tool and go see for myself. I have purchased tools that I have at first thought “no way would I pay that price”. In the mean time I don’t question the buyers of such tools. After seeing the tool in use I many times decide that it is not for me because I can do the work equally or better with what I have.

Often we think of the cost of a tool in the terms of what another similar tool costs. In my case it is my $25 Stanley #4 that is ~130 years old compared to a $350 Lie Nielsen #4. Of course the LN is going to beat it in every category except removing shavings from a piece of wood.


John, I respect your viewpoint but I’m willing to give the benefit of a doubt. Most often I feel that this is a case of ‘either/or’ choices more than anything else. Example being perhaps someone buys their sought after sharpening stone but decides not to take a vacation, etc.

My point, is that it’s easy to take something like sharpening stones or infill planes and consider it excessive, but I suppose I simply see it as indicators that demand for such things is strong and in the case of something like infill planes I’m glad to see someone patronizing a talented maker at a level that allows them to stretch their legs a bit.

For some, the vacation might be a new sharpening stone to work with during a week or two of no other responsibilities.

On a philosophical level some may experience a oneness with the tools they use. Some of my tools do feel better in hand than others. Paying more for some unexplainable comfort is worth it to many. Others choose to get the job done without the luxury. That is why we have Hyundais and Mercedes driving on the same highways.

jtk

[David Carroll]

It's the same thing in lots of areas, the wild price differences of "luxury items." Wines, whiskeys, cars, clothes, travel, and nearly anything else. At some point along the spectrum of cost vs quality, higher prices don't buy performance, they buy exclusivity, insane attention to fine craftsmanship, and rare materials.

As a wise old man once said to me, "there's an ass for every chair." I'm glad that there are artisans making very high end tools that I will never be able to buy, but I am also glad there are manufacturers of high quality tools that with some scrimping and saving I can afford (think LN and LV). Good tools have always been expensive.

For me, there are two sweet spots, the highest "out of the box" performance for a reasonable price, (again, LN and LV) and buying a used tool for a low price and restoring it to high performance. I enjoy the process, which is good, because the investment in time making an old rusty chisel sing, for instance, would make it a very expensive chisel, if I considered my time in the cost.

DC