Table Saw Not cutting 90* (HELP!)

[Kenny Southerland]

I am having a problem with my table saw that is about to make me lose my mind (up in here, up in here). I am about to finish my first year of woodworking. I have a 90s model craftsman table saw that I have had for about 9 months. It is the 315.228390, essentially the same thing as thishttps://www.purplewave.com/auction/121017/item/E2208. I can't decide if this problem has existed since I purchased the saw and I have just gotten to the point where I notice something small like this, or if it is a new problem.

I cannot cut a 90 degree cut. The cuts look angled or rounded, like there is a slight swoop to them, with more material removed from the bottom. If I rip a small piece of wood, something like 3x10 and then stand the piece on the side that was ripped you can see that the piece is leaning a couple degrees. Putting a known square triangle square up to the piece, while standing on edge, makes it very apparent.

It happens on both rips and miters. It happens with plywood and softwood, haven't tried hardwood yet.

Here is what I have checked so far (not necessarily in order):
1) Checked blade for square with table with a known good square
2) Checked blade for square with magnetic digital angle checker (Wixley)
3) Ensured insert is level with table
4) Checked table surface for flat with a quality straight edge and a feeler gauge. Had a couple of spots between .01-.03 out of flat. Basically flat except for scratches in the surface.
5) Tried a different blade<br>6) Attached the magnetic digital angle checker (Wixley) to the blade and moved the blade all the way up and down. Digital angle checker said 89.8-90.2 throughout even while in motion.
7) Checked arbor for wobble by using dial indicator, less than .01 off
8) Took the insert out and ripped a piece of 10x20 scrap plywood, was still off

What else should I be checking? What am I missing? Is there some other part of setup I have forgotten?

[Robert Hazelwood]

So the cut surface is not straight? I think this would come from either the blade flexing or from the table not being flat. The specs you gave for table flatness are not very good, 0.03 is 1/32" and that will cause problems if you are trying to dial things in precisely. If you meant 0.003", then that's pretty good.

With a table that is not flat you can get a different squareness reading if you place the square on the left vs. right side of the blade. So you might be checking on the left side and then feeding the work on the right side. Additionally you can get a different squareness reading depending on how long of a stock your square has. A 2" square might read perfect 90, but a 12" square is off. The same would apply to the width of the piece you are ripping. Might be square on a 3" piece but noticeably off on a 18" wide piece. It all depends on exactly how the table is not flat, whether its convex/concave, and in which directions.

With the saw off and blade retracted, if you place a flat workpiece on the table where you'd be commonly feeding for a rip cut, then push down on either edge or either end of the board, does it rock? If so I'd suspect this is most of your issue, the piece is rocking and changing its angle to the blade as you feed it through. You might have to be very careful about where you apply pressure during a cut, to keep the board rocked the same way throughout. And you might have to compensate the angle of the blade a bit to get a square result, even if it doesn't check out with your angle gauge, and that compensation might change with different sized workpieces.

[Dave Mount]

Does the offcut show the complementary angle?

[glenn bradley]

Always unplug your saw before doing any of the things suggested that do not call for the aw to be operational. Remember to take all of this advise as constructive and not as a criticism. It is easy to become insulted when someone states something plainly, it can appear harsh. Not our intention.

There can be so many correct suggestions and additional questions to this. Don't get frustrated by the amount and variation of things people offer. First off it is good to understand that the tablesaw primarily tries to cut a single plane through the material. That is, when operating properly the blade does not deviate, the line of cut does not change. What makes this possible is that the material is moving through the cut along a consistent path, the blade is operating correctly and there is no gross problem with your technique.

I agree (or hope) that you are reporting .03" when you mean .003". IMHO a saw that is off 1/32" from the start is good for framing a house but, not much else. The reference surfaces during a rip operation are the table and the fence. For a typical 90 degree rip cut the table and fence should be perpendicular to each other with the fence parallel to the blade. Even if this alignment is perfect the feed path will be irregular if the material is not properly milled prior to heading for the tablesaw. For rip cuts you want one face jointed flat and one edge jointed perpendicular to that face. This assures a true face and edge to ride against the true table and fence surfaces.

Any deviations in the material's face and edge will attempt to be transmitted to the cut. Transmission of irregularities is not always possible because the blade only wants to cut straight. When presented with more path deviation than it can tolerate the blade will kick back at worst and leave tooth marks at best. Other common indicators of a poor feed path are burning, difficulty feeding and rough cut results.

One possibility for the results you are reporting is that the material is not true and the blade is allowing path deviation. You mention that you swapped blades but, did not mention what kinds of blades or their condition. Swapping a well used blade for another well used blade may not provide you with a new test, just another similar one.

Here's an article on aligning a contractor type saw (https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/outfitting-woodworking-shop/tune-up-your-tablesaw). Pay special attention to the saw blade being parallel on the plate, near the same tooth (mark it with a felt pen) at the front and rear positions. Also, check your 90 degree stop to be sure it is not limiting your adjustment. I generally set my stops a degree or two past 90 and 45 as these "positive" stops are not always . . . well . . . positive ;-)

Once you have gone through these steps, let's revisit the issue. A new quality blade would help if you do not have an alignment plate but, let's not go spending $100 if we don't have to. A dial indicator, a combo square or a piece of wood with a brass screw in the end can all be used to confirm that your blade is spinning true. Just touch the tip of the square or screw to the side of the blade in a secure position and rotate the blade by hand. The contact should be consistent; no waves or wobble. Please let us know what you find.

[Bill Dufour]

Are you sure you are measuring the blade body and not the teeth?
Bill D.

[Richard Coers]

A digital angle checker is far from an accurate tool. If it is a one decimal place version, it can be .09 degrees off before the display changes to the next digit. Craftsman table saws are not known for their accuracy. .01" is a lot of wobble, max should be half that. Your table flatness numbers are horrible. A different blade doesn't indicate the quality nor sharpness of any of your blades. It doesn't indicate if you are using thin kerf or full width blades. I'm going to need a sketch to understand what you mean by "rounded" or "swoop" cut. That surely sounds like a dull or harmonic issue blade to me.

[Lee Schierer]

Let's start with the basics!

Have you aligned the saw blade to the miter slot with your dial indicator mounted on a block of wood attached to your miter gauge?

Have you aligned the fence with the same miter slot and checked it for repeatability?

What sort of cut do you get when you cross cut a board?

What blade are you using? Your problem sounds typical of a thin kerf blade or a blade that is dull that is dull. I run a Freud full kerf glue line rip blade on my Craftsman saw ( model 113.298720 14 amp motor) and it works great and my rip cuts are square every time even when cutting 3/4" hickory.

[Kenny Southerland]

To clarify to those asking, yes I meant .01-.003. Sorry for the typo.

[Bill Dufour]

This weekend I bought the HF dial indicator to align my tabletop. It was under $20 out the door. I made a simple wooden mount for the miter gauge to set the groove parallel to the blade. I suggest you do that first. I do not really care about the accuracy, just repeatability. Once that is set then start to measure the angle to the table. A blade stabilizer may help.
Note that all measurements are made with the power off, rotate by hand only.
Bil lD

[Kenny Southerland]

Oh, that I didn't think to check. I'll try that this afternoon.

[Doug Garson]

Is your fence square (vertically) to your table top? If your fence and table top are not 90 degrees and you push the workpiece against the fence you may tilt it off the table top so it is no longer flat on the table top. The taller the workpiece the more this will matter. (Although you #8 suggests this is not the issue). Did you check the blade for square at several points?

[David Buchhauser]

Some photos of your saw and test setups would be helpful.
David

[Derek Arita]

When you adjust the blade 90* to the table, make sure you to rotate the blade and check that in several spots on the blade. Any kind of arbor wobble will cause a variation in the blade angle. Accurate and consistent blade adjustment was one of the reasons I moved up to a good cabinet saw.

[Kenny Southerland]

Based on what several of you sent over here is what I have done. Also, several of you asked for pictures of what the cut looks like I have added a couple of those. The first two show the issue with the cut. The 3rd is the piece stood up on the edge that was just ripped against a square.

433428 433429 433430

1) I just happened to have purchased a new blade that was on sale just prior to this whole thing starting. Its a Freud Industrial, not Diablo, 60T multipurpose blade. It was sealed in the package and I had to remove the lubicant they spray on the blades to prevent them from rusting, so I know its not been used previously. Used the digital and a small machinist square to verify the blade was 90 degrees to the table before running.
2) I used some Russian birch plywood scraps for my tests so that I would have a fairly stable material I was working with, 12mm 9 ply. Its almost voidless, but still not quiet as good as the real thing.
3) I made a couple rip cuts, using my fence, and they came out the same as the older blades. Curved, rounded, swooped cuts. Most of them look like a Nike swoosh with the fact curvy part at the bottom and the point straight up. I got a couple pictures
4) I made a tight runner for the miter slot and mounted my dial indicator to it. Its an analogue iGaging dial.
5) Made a mark in the center of a gullet with a felt pen on the blade and put the dial indicator on it with the mark at the front of the table. I rotated the blade around to where he mark on the blade was on the back of the blade and moved the dial indicator to sit on the mark. It was a difference of 0.001. I moved the dial indicator and blade back and forth several times and got the same result over and over. From what I have read on here it seems there are a few of you out there that says .001 isn't good enough, but it took me over an hour to get that, and I am pretty sure any attempt I make to make it "better" than .001 will result in me actually making it worse and possibly burning my house to the ground. I want to do that as few times as possible in this lifetime.
6) I noticed while I had the blade all the way up that the motor was pressed as far against the mount as it could be putting A LOT of tension on the spring. My table saw is a 90s contractor saw where the motor is mounted out the back on a hinge and it pivots up and down as you raise and lower the blade with the vbelt creating the tension for it to go up and down.
7) My thought was that there could be too much tension on the vbelt, so I removed a link from the vbelt and put the saw back together. When I ran another rip on the same piece the blade stalled, I had burning almost the entire length of the cut. So I put the link back in the vbelt.
7a) I also made cuts with the blade ever so slightly above the piece after changing the vbelt. I normally do a score cut of ~1/16 (2mm) and then raise the blade to full height on a second pass. Please note I only do this with plywood and laminates, not with hard or soft wood. One of the rips with the tip of the blade teeth ever so slightly above the piece came out absolutely perfect following the second pass. I thought maybe I found the problem. I moved the fence in slightly and repeated the cut, went back to having the problem. Tried several times and could not get another proper cut.
8) I put the dial indicator back in the slot and placed the needle where it could turn on the blade without hitting any of the scores on the blade. I turned the blade multiple times by rotating the pulley on the motor. The dial indicator did not move more than .0015 in either direction. So that made me think the arbor is pretty true.
9) Used the dial indicator to measure the fence, and that is when I found out my fence is complete crap. I knew it wasn't good, but gugh. Had play of .05 in both directions going the length of the fence, and it jumped all over the place while traveling back and forth, even when I moved the runner the dial was mounted on slowly. So I think my fence is at least part of the equation.
10) At this point I went and grabbed the miter gauge. Since I can't make rip cuts I can trust I'll just make miter cuts. Miter cuts do the same thing as rip cuts
11) Verified again that the miter gauge was square to the blade and made another cut. Same thing.
12) I used the bottom of my triangle square to make sure the insert was flat to the table at the front and back of the insert. It was.
13) I took the insert out and cut miters without the insert by clamping the piece to the miter gauge for safety. Same result.

At that point it was getting late enough that I felt I needed to stop running the table saw, which I have been using on my driveway, due to how late it was getting and the fact several of the neighbors have small children.

I also remember someone asked if i took the cut off and laid it next to the piece if they look joined, like they match. The answer is "kinda-ish", until I flipped one of the pieces upside down and then it was really off.

One other thing I noticed tonight was that when I made rip cuts I could hear a change in the tone of the cut when the piece reached the teeth at the back of the blade. I am pretty sure that is due to the fence. I also noticed some consistent burn marks in the middle of the cuts that were all the same distance from the end of the piece closest to me, not much longer than the length of the exposed part of the blade.

[David Buchhauser]

Hi Kenny,
I have a late 70's vintage Craftsman table saw purchased new that looks a lot like the one in the photos from the link you provided. Here is one of the photos from your link.
433431

I just went out to the shop and did a test cut on a piece of 3/4" plywood to see how square the cut is. I have never done anything with the blade tilt adjustment other than using a small square to bring the blade to 90 degrees. The cut edge is very square to the board surface - as measured with a small square. The board also sits upright at 90 degrees when resting on the cut edge. It seems fine to me.

433432 433433 433434

The motor on this saw is hinged as you described. The blade is a Freud (I can't remember, but I think it is a rip blade) that is fairly new.

433436 433437 433438

Even though you have squared your blade to the table, perhaps you could make some small adjustments with the blade tilt knob on the right side of the saw to see if you can make a small adjustment that will bring your cut edge into square. Just a thought.
David

[Robert Hazelwood]

Looks like you've checked everything pretty thoroughly. 0.001 is very good for miter-slot to blade alignment and I doubt you'll hear anyone telling you to dial it in further. Also the runout of 0.0015 on the blade is quite good, translating to an arbor runout of much less than 0.001.

To be honest I am not sure what is causing this, in particular the curve to the cut. The only thing that still stands out is the fence...if it's wonky then it can be putting side forces on the blade as you feed the piece through which might contribute to the weirdness you are seeing. However you say it does the same thing if you use the miter gauge, so the fence can't be the main problem.

The only thing I can think of is that the piece is somehow rocking as you feed it through. It starts out angled a bit away from the blade, so you get a deeper cut on the bottom, then it angles in towards the blade (or vice versa). This could be due to the table not being flat or the workpiece not being flat. It could be quite subtle and cause the issue you are seeing. Maybe focus on flatness just in the area between the miter slots, checking for twist as well. See if a flat piece rocks even slightly as you press down in different areas.

[Kenny Southerland]

Robert, the piece rocking somehow did occur to me last night. It would explain the curved edge as well as the burn mark that seems to be happening at about the same point from the end of the cut almost every time. I'll get some time later today to check the table for flat. All I have done is checked across the table with a straight edge. I should probably due front to back and diagonal as well. Is there any other method you suggest I use to check for flatness?

[Derek Arita]

Check table flatness, especially around the insert in all directions. Could be that the insert has a dip at the blade. As the wood contacts the blade, the blade pulls the wood down into the dip. Depending on your workpiece flatness, the cut will vary. Also, make sure there is no blade wobble. Forces on the blade are extremely strong and could tweak the blade out of square at any opportunity. If you can push the blade out of square, the same may be occurring during the cut.
By the way...is your plywood test piece completely flat? It looked like there was daylight under the straight edge in one of your pics.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Maybe the best thing to do is take a very flat workpiece, mdf works well if you have some on hand, about the size of the pieces you've been having problems with. Retract the blade, clean all dust off the table, and set the piece down on the table where it would be as you'd make a cut. Check where the edges of the piece meet the table, look for any gaps. Press firmly on each side, at each end, and each corner, look for any movement. Repeat the check on the infeed side, the outfeed side, and right over the blade.

Try this as well with the workpiece situated like you were going to make a crosscut with the miter gauge.

I think you'll probably find a little movement, but the question will be if that's whats causing your problem, especially if its just a small amount. And what would you do about it if it is? One thing to try is cutting on a sled, which should minimize the effect of table flatness. If your sled cuts come out straight, without the swoosh, then that starts to confirm the table being the problem.

[glenn bradley]

I also remember someone asked if i took the cut off and laid it next to the piece if they look joined, like they match. The answer is "kinda-ish", until I flipped one of the pieces upside down and then it was really off.

What a battle. I'm sorry this thing is fighting you so much. When 2+2 doesn't make 4 as when your measurements of the saw (which are good) do not jive with the results (which are bad) I'm afraid we have to dig deeper. Thanks for doing all the leg work and checking alignment, flatness and all that. It's good that you are using ply because that removes the poorly milled stock problems that many experience.

At this point I am starting to suspect that something is loose or cracked / broken. That is, when the saw is put under load during an operation, something with a loose screw or bolt position is shifting or a cracked casting is allowing movement. If your picture 2.jpg is showing the wood with your thumb on the surface that rides the table the top of the blade is tilting to the left during the cut. You have already confirmed that the top of the blade is at 90 degrees when you are not performing a cut so the problem seems to be during operation.

A loose or broken portion of the trunnion at the front of the saw could allow this. For example, a front left trunnion attachment point, if cracked, would allow that corner to be forced away from the underside of the table resulting in the plane of the blade leaning to the left. A parts diagram could help us identify other likely points of issue. Wait . . . here it is:

433452

So we want to check for damage to the "ears" on part(s) labeled "7". Your model does use the center trunnion locking handle, part "9" in the diagram. This is for locking the bevel position but, could help with stability when at 90 degrees as well. Is it tight when you are making your cut? I see that part(s) "7" have three bolts each. The extreme front and rear hold the bracket snug while the four 'corners' are loosened for blade alignment. Your alignment is good so I would not loosen these but, I would make sure that they are tight and that those castings are not cracked. It would be great to just find something that had worked loose instead of something that has broken as many parts for these saws are no longer available.

[Derek Arita]

Come to think of it, one of my first table saws was a Craftsman similar to yours. Because of cut frustrations like yours, I ended up returning the saw and moving up to a 3hp, Jet cabinet saw. As I recall, there was movement in the lightweight trunion construction, causing the poor cuts. The more stress there was on the blade, the poorer the cut. Does taking a shallower cut make any difference?

[john bateman]

I own a Rigid saw that looks similar to yours. Although I've never had as severe a problem, if I don't engage the bevel lock the arbor assy tends to rock a bit when cutting with the blade at 90 degrees.
The problem doesn't really show up just making static measurements.
Does your saw have bevel lock?

[Dave Mount]

Kenny, your pictures make me less sure we even know what the symptom is. The way you are assessing square has too many different issues that can affect square -- too hard to narrow in on the problem.

In the two pictures you sent of the cut, the first looks like a flat face that might be at an angle (camera perspective can fool you). In the second, the cut face doesn't look flat. Those are two very different problems. The first smells like blade angle relative to the workpiece (I say to the workpiece, not the table bed as it's possible the workpiece is not sitting flat to the table where it passes the bed). The second is a product of blade movement, either from vibration or deflection, or from the workpiece moving as it exits the cut (e.g., if the workpiece is not flat, if the fence isn't straight/parallel, or the saw bed isn't flat front to back).

You need to prepare a workpiece to test performance, a piece of plywood probably at least 20 inches long, 30 is better. Do you have a jointer? This workpiece needs to have a true edge, straight and square. It's really important that this piece start with a dead straight edge. If you don't have a jointer, then a factory edge of the plywood will have to do. Make sure there are no goobers protruding from that edge, knock them off with a sanding block (not loose paper).

Take that piece of ply and put the true edge against the fence and see if the fence and the piece mate tightly along their length (you're looking for a bent fence).

I would take a piece of plywood maybe 20-ish inches long and rip it (trued edge on the fence, obviously). Then lay the cut pieces next to each other, not on edge, but the way they were in the piece before the cut, and push them together. See if they mate tightly both across the thickness front and back and along the seam between the two. Flip them over and check the joint along the length on the bottom side.

Next, return the pieces to their original orientation and slide them so that the leading edge of one is in the middle of the other, and vice versa. Check fit. Then check when they are aligned leading edge to trailing edge and vice versa.

Next, take the piece that was between fence and the blade (that has the true edge on the right) and spin it around so the true edge is against your offcut. Assess how they mate in all the ways I just described.

Next, take the piece you ripped, put the straight edge against the fence, put the leading edge right at the front teeth of the saw (power off, obviously), and bring the fence over until the teeth are just rubbing the workpiece. Then push the workpiece through along the fence just like you were ripping it, but without the saw on. Do the leading edge teeth rub the workpiece the same way for it's full length? Do the back teeth rub to the same degree? Does the workpiece bind at any point along the path, or does it become loose in the gap (no longer rubbing the saw teeth)?

Your comments about the sound changing as you rip and getting burning on the face of your workpiece smells of fence issues (I know you have similar problems with the miter gauge, but still). The burning means the piece between the fence and the blade is getting pushed into the blade significantly; the kerf clearance isn't enough to keep the workpiece from rubbing the sawblade. This can happen if, among other things, your fence is further from the leading edge of the blade than the back edge. That noise you get as the piece exits is the teeth cutting back into the work pieces as the pressure is relieved and the workpiece moves back into the blade, the blade bends back to vertical, or both. A twisted or bowed fence can do the same. I can't see what fence you have, but many contractor's saws have fences that lock down on both front and back rails, and they often don't lock down the same way each time.

The problem with how you are testing for a square cut is that it reflects the aggregate effect of irregularities all along the cut, not just in one place. You need a square that will allow you to assess square at any point along the length of the workpiece. You want to be able to hold the cut edge up to the light, put the square across the cut edge, and look for light. It's the same idea as what you are doing, but you can check at a single point along the edge.

In addition to not allowing you to directly assess squareness of your cut edge, your speed square is not generally considered a precision square. I'd recommend you get an engineer's square for machinery setup, probably 6". Until you do, make sure you assess square with your speed square from both sides of the workpiece, and that the complementary irregularity is observed when you measure from the other side of the workpiece.

I also noticed a little fuzz on your workpieces from veneer tearout. To be expected, but make sure you don't have some of that fuzz affecting how the workpiece sits on the reference surface.

Let us know what you learn.

Dave

[David Buchhauser]

Kenny,
Are you sure that your insert is completely flat with no dips, and also that the top surface of the insert is indeed at the same height as the table surface? In the case of my older Craftsman table saw, I don't believe that there is a factory provision for leveling/adjusting the insert.
David

[Bob Riefer]

I didn’t read all posts but wonder if testing with a sled would be worthwhile.... would eliminate fence and table from equation

[David Buchhauser]

Good Idea Bob!
David

[Derek Arita]

I didn’t read all posts but wonder if testing with a sled would be worthwhile.... would eliminate fence and table from equation

Might work...might not. If the blade and/or trunion is the problem, then not.

[Robert D Evans]

It sounds like the saw is adjusted well enough to cut a straight line. The problem seems to show up when under load. I'm thinking like Glenn, it sounds like you have a bad arbor bearing or a broken casting that is allowing the blade to flex when under load. It wouldn't take much flex of the arbor, translated out to the end of a 10" blade to make a big difference. I think checking for arbor movement would be the next step. How you accurately do that is going to be a challenge. Crawling under the saw with a flashlight and wiggling the arbor might show something loose/broken.

[Lee Schierer]

433452

Your model does use the center trunnion locking handle, part "9" in the diagram. This is for locking the bevel position but, could help with stability when at 90 degrees as well. Is it tight when you are making your cut? I see that part(s) "7" have three bolts each. The extreme front and rear hold the bracket snug while the four 'corners' are loosened for blade alignment. Your alignment is good so I would not loosen these but, I would make sure that they are tight and that those castings are not cracked. It would be great to just find something that had worked loose instead of something that has broken as many parts for these saws are no longer available.

My Craftsman saw has the same tilt lock that is present on the OP's saw. The blade tilt mechanics of this saw have enough play (gear and linkage backlash) for the blade to want to tilt one way or the other unless you use this locking device. I can tell you from experience with my saw that leaving the locking handle loose can cause problems with your cuts whether ripping or cross cutting. I always use my tilt lock.

[Kenny Southerland]

Got a chance last night to look at the top of the saw. I was definately not doing it right before. I was using a quality straight edge, but it extended all the way to the wings. I started with a small piece of flat plywood and went and moved it over the table, then moved to using the straight edge of my combination square. Part of the problem was my insert. I had been checking the insert at the front and back because I had read that's where the problems occur. My insert is bowed upward in the middle. Its made of really solid steel. I managed to take some of the bow out by pushing it against the edge of a 2x6. Another part of the problem is that the table is dished on the right side of the insert.

So it cutting better now, but still not what I want.

My wife mentioned upgrading when I told her about it last night. I just about told her that I didn't want to spend the money to upgrade, that I wanted my saw to work, but fortunately I was smart enough to keep my dumb mouth shut.

[Derek Arita]

Kenny, glad you found the issues. Like I said, if the insert is not flat, with the table, the cutting force can suck the workpiece down and really mess up that 90* cut. Add the out of flat table and you've got a mess. With a good cabinet saw, you can tweak the table if it's not totally flat and there are aftermarket inserts that are nice and flat. I don't know if tweaking the table on you saw is even possible.
Move up to a good cabinet saw and you'll be a lot happier, once everything is in adjustment. Let us know what you end up with.

[Eric Schmid]

Buying new equipment can be much more exciting than working on an old machine. And there are certainly more robust and accurate saws made. You may be missing an opportunity to learn about the machinery you are working with if you stop where you’re at, however.

The first thing I did when I began woodworking in earnest was rebuild a table saw my father had given me. I knew little about this machine, except that the cut quality was poor and it was unsafe. I tore down the saw and put it back together; replaced bearings, had the top machined, installed a new fence, made zero clearance inserts, etc.

This was a 1970’s Rockwell contractor saw, so it was never going to be the ultimate saw. I did learn how to fine tune this machine to provide accurate parts for woodworking projects, however. When you understand the components of the machine you’re working with, learn what needs to be adjusted and how to measure those adjustments, your woodworking is likely to be safer and more satisfying. Buying new machinery, which will likely require similar tuning, won’t teach us how to operate these machines.

BTW, it sounds like your present cutting woes are due to blade and fence alignment, and likely blade type. The burning you describe on the back end of a cut is the result of the blade being closer to the fence on the outfeed side of the cut. These components may be out of alignment, the blade may be deflecting in the cut, or the fence may be bowed along its length. There are other components that could be causing this as well; blade choice, blade angle relative to the table, arbor bearings, etc. The point is, as the operator of your saw, you need to understand these factors, as well as have the ability to measure and adjust.

For example, the insert plate should not even be a factor for a 16” wide, flat piece of plywood. The table, fence and blade are really all that you’re dealing with. Eliminate each factor one by one until you can get accurate parts.

[David Buchhauser]

Thanks for the update Kenny! As I previously mentioned, I suspected that your insert might be giving you the problem. Glad to hear you've got it figured out.
David

[Kenny Southerland]

Eric,
I'm not giving up on the saw just yet.

I know part of the problem is that the fence sucks. I knew it was bad but I didn't realize it was this bad until this process.

I had started making plans to replace the fence as a part of a mobile table/router station build. I was gearing up to do that starting in the next few weeks. I even have a replacement fence its a freaking Biesemeyer I bought from a guy who bought it to replace his fence. He used it for a few weeks and decided he like the one that came with his saw better. He put is back in the box and sold it to me for $100, but the reason it was so cheap was it didn't come with rails. I figure I can make those easily enough with $100 worth of angle iron, rectangle tube, and some engine paint.

Right now I am waiting on building any of that while I figure out if this saw is the one to use. Some of the more recent responses have pointed to the possibility of a broken trunnion. Me keeping my mouth shut was about holding my options open. I really like this saw, I'm not giving up just yet.

[Lee Schierer]

If his throat plate isn't flat and can't be flattened to his satisfaction, it is pretty easy to make replacement throat plates from 1/4" luan plywood. I used to make them for my table saw. The bonus is you get a zero clearance insert.
433552
To make the plate stiffer, I glued a strip of scrap to the under side where it clears the blade.
433553433559
A machinist friend made me one from aluminum jig plate with a replaceable insert.
433556433555

I have the cad drawing of the aluminum insert if any one is interested, send me a private message with your email address.

[Wayne Cannon]

Kenny,

If you are not yet ready to upgrade your saw, you can have your top milled flat at a machine shop, such as for automotive work, for much less. Be sure to check flatness after unbolting the top to assure that the out-of-flatness is not caused by external forces.

[Kenny Southerland]

Wayne,
I have heard of doing that. But also heard of the top being milled so flat that the miter gauge sticks out of the channel. Do you have any experience with having that done?

[David Buchhauser]

Kenny,
If you have the top resurfaced (milled or ground) they should and most probably will not remove any more material than necessary to make the surface flat. Worst case is that you can always have the bar on your miter gauge milled down by the same amount so that it does not "stick out" of the miter slot.
David

[Rob Luter]

I'll second Lee's suggestion of making your own throat plates. I make mine from some scrap oak I had in the stash. Just trace your existing plate, cut the shape out, and sand to fit. I planed mine to the exact thickness required, but you can go thinner and install little jack screws to adjust height. Just use dog point set screws. Another one in one end can be used to adjust length for a tight fit. It's so easy that I've made several to have dedicated zero clearance inserts for different blades, box joint cutters, and dados. They're reversible too, so you can have two sizes on one insert.

[Kenny Southerland]

@Rob Luter, for the dog point screws, did you just tap the threads directly into the oak? Do you have a product for the jack screws you have used in the past that you suggest? I'll admit I prefer to have something adjustable like that. (I think. I haven't used a zero clearance throat plate before.)

[Kenny Southerland]

@Robert, Lee, Derek, and John

I am embarrassed to type this, but the truth is I had no idea that lever was a tilt lock. I tilt was always a little firmer to move than I would expect, not so much it was concerning, just a bit more than the height adjuster. I have a feeling that as I have been moving the table saw in and out of the garage to use on the driveway I knocked that loose to the point that it was no longer holding. When I tighten the tilt lock it makes a big difference.

That being said, its STILL not what I would expect from a decently tuned table saw.

I didn't get to do much with it over the weekend as we are re-doing my daughters room. She is turning 11 soon, and for her birthday she wanted to room changed over from the little girls room to her "big girl/pre-teen/teen" room. We've lived here for ten years and we haven't decorated her room since we moved in, so my wife and I decided to go for it. Whoever painted last time sure didn't know what they were doing, took the whole 3 day weekend to move things out of her room, prep, and paint.

Hopefully I get some time to flip the saw over and look at the trunions soon. Are there any specific areas I should be looking at closely?

[Myk Rian]

Let's start with the basics!

Have you aligned the saw blade to the miter slot with your dial indicator mounted on a block of wood attached to your miter gauge?

Have you aligned the fence with the same miter slot and checked it for repeatability?


This. If you aren't cutting square to the blade, you will have an angled cut

[Brian Runau]

I have had a similar problem recently same saw, but the professional model with the base for dust extraction. I had the top off twice....Very tight trying to get it back to 90 to cut square. I discovered, I think that putting the angle iron back on the front and back had flexed the table a little cause it to be out of square with the blade.

I loosened the bolts holding the table to the base, and then loosed the bolts holding the front and back angle iron on the table. With the top loose on the base, I tightened one bolt on the angle iron and checked square. I did this after each bolt. It stayed square to the blade. after tightening all the angle iron bolts, I think tightened the base bolts to the top, but not over tight and it stayed square. I assume I had added some flex tot he angle iron causing the table to go out of square with the blade?

it was still hard to turn the blade to 90, but it would go and it did stay square. Not sure this will work for you, but it worked for me.

[Rob Luter]

@Rob Luter, for the dog point screws, did you just tap the threads directly into the oak? Do you have a product for the jack screws you have used in the past that you suggest? I'll admit I prefer to have something adjustable like that. (I think. I haven't used a zero clearance throat plate before.)

Just drill the holes a bit smaller than the major diameter of the threads and let the screws form the threads when you run them in. You don’t need to worry about holding power so much as they’re just jack screws. I checked my insert and it uses cup point, not dog point screws. See photo below. Any hardware store will have these. I think mine are #4 size.

433852

Edit.....

Here's a couple shots of three of my inserts. One is a Leecraft Phenolic insert and the other two are shop made. The Leecraft has the jack screws as well as a screw in the end to assure a tight fit. Only one of my shop made inserts has one, and neither has any jack screws. I planed them to be an exact match thickness wise. Doing that also allows you to make them reversible. You can see one of mine does double duty as a 1/2" dado and a 3/8* box joint insert.


433850

433851

[Kenny Southerland]

I thought I would come back and let everyone know that I ended up getting a new table saw. Everyone had some good suggestions but I couldn't figure out why I was getting a rolled cut at the end of each board.

I ended up finding a Delta Rockwell 34-450 from an old farmer for $250. It was 3 phase, but after another $150 for a VFD I was in business. I've completely gutted the saw, sanded everything down and painted it all. Added a side table with a router plate, and built a torsion box cart to hold the whole thing as all together it is about 6 1/2' wide (its amazing!).

All of you were really awesome to try to help me out. Thank you.