Byrd head for shaper

[Alex Zeller]

I'm thinking of trying my hand at making a rocking chair. I figure the first few will be out of red maple (throw away wood around here) and could end up in the fireplace until I get a design I like and all the angles correct. One thing I keep coming back to is making a pattern jig/ sled for my shaper and using a byrd head (or similar) with a rub collar to make the runners. I've only used my shaper with the fence installed so I figured I would ask for advice before launching wood in a dangerous direction. I have read some here about it but I was hoping someone might have a link to a video as well.

My shaper is a 3hp (the motor has to be the strongest 3hp I've ever seen, a US Motors brand made in the US) that turns at just under 8000 rpm no load. I'm thinking that the best thing to do would be to draw a line on the wood and trim it on the band saw within a 1/16th of an inch to reduce how much I would need to remove. So my first question would be which diameter cutter? I read that a 3" diameter head may be too slow and be more likely to cause a kickback. I can easily put a 4" long head with a rub collar on my shaper so I figured there was little reason not to buy one that long. My 8" jointer only has a 1 1/2 hp motor so I think I'll be fine power wise as long as I don't take too much off in one bite. The next question is how to secure the wood to the pattern securely. Would toggle clamps be the best way (this is how I was thinking)? Double sided wood tape? Something else?

I'm hoping to start making some parts later this summer so I can get a feel for the process and then next winter actually try to come up with a design I like.

[Steve Jenkins]

I use toggle clamps on most all my shaper jigs. I’d probably put three on a rocker jig. Make your jig long enough to engage the bearing before and after it starts cutting.

[Mike Kees]

Alex what is the spindle size on your shaper ? What type of machine is it ?The reason I ask is power is only half of the equation in deciding how big of a shaper cutter you can run. The spindle size and even more important the bearings size and the length of the spindle cartridge greatly affect the machines ability to spin larger cutters safely. All this said there is probably a Byrd cutter that will do what you need. Make your sled longer than the part you want to machine,6-7 inches longer on both ends. This allows you to place the edge against the rub bearing first and then move the work into the cutter safely as well as exit the cutting portion safely. Yes you want hold downs,toggle clamps for sure. Forget all about tape on a shaper. If you have a tenoning hood it would be a good idea to use it ,if not you could easily make one. The diameter of the head determines more how tight of a radius you can cut than anything else. Height of the cutter determines how thick of stock can be cut. I have two different of these type of cutters and have used both in the manner you are looking at. You could also use any straight cutter with a rub collar the same diameter,it will do the same thing quite a bit cheaper.

[brent stanley]

Like Steve says, give yourself a LOT of lead in room. I see people with barely enough space to get started and wonder if they're template material is solid gold, leading them to skimp on it or something.

8000 RPM is very fast, do you have other options? Like Mike is asking, template work asks a lot of a machine but not just horsepower, it can be hard on bearings if they're not up to it. Smaller diameter permits higher RPM and tighter radius, whereas larger diameter permits better cutter geometry. If you're not used to this, I would suggest chip limiting tooling which is safer without compromising cut quality. Byrd is not chip limiting. What machine do you have? Like Mike says, you want at least a couple of toggle clamps and even rigid stops on the back side that will forbid movement at least in their direction. This book offers a lot of great advice on the subject: https://amzn.to/2R7mqkU (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?v=mylYGzZC2yU&event=video_description&q=https%3A%2F%2Famzn.to%2F2R7mqkU&redir_token=rBQJIAqkxFTIhC7mLnsSxlORjQh8MTU4OTc1Mj k5M0AxNTg5NjY2NTkz)

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[Kevin Jenness]

Amana makes a reasonably priced flush trim cutter plus bearing 62mm diameter x 80mm tall https://www.toolstoday.com/insert-spiral-jointing-cutter.html. 8k is on the low end for that diameter.

Bandsaw close to the line to limit the stock removal and design the jig to hold the workpiece securely and keep your hands well away from the action. Keep in mind that freehand shaping is one of the more dangerous operations in the woodshop.

[Jamie Buxton]

A less-scary approach is to lose the shaper. You can bandsaw close to the line on those rocker blanks - maybe a sixteenth. Use a belt sander to remove that sixteenth. A stationary belt sander with a table is a good tool for this. If you don't have one, you can quickly build one up from a portable belt sander and some scrap wood. You can get really close to the line with the sander. If you're going into mass production on these rockers, the shaper jig is faster, and may be more precise. But if you're going to make just one or two rockers, the belt sander is worth considering.

[Mel Fulks]

The problem with sawing close to line on a curved narrow piece is the wood will often move while you are sawing,
posibly making part of the work too narrow to cover the template. I would leave an 1/8th ,but first round off the work piece edges just
a little with sand paper ,or a router "climb cutting" .That will usually prevent a "power grab"

[Alex Zeller]

The shaper is made by Poitras. It's a 3/4" shaft but the previous owner, a cabinet shop, used it exclusively with 1 1/4" tooling. It's a more basic design with only one speed. The whole spindle, bearings, and pulley move up and down and on the motor side is a flat belt pulley (like what a flat leather belt would use) so changing speed isn't really an option. The easiest way to pick a speed would be with the diameter of the cutter. I can't tell what size the bearings are but it's rated for up to a 5" cutter.

Update: I found a copy of the manual on-line. The bearings are 6204 (20mmx47mmx14mm). So almost 2" in diameter.

[Joe Calhoon]

I have a 80mm diameter head similar to what Kevin linked. As he mentioned 8K rpm is on the low side for these type cutters. I run mine at 9 to 12K depending on what shaper it’s on. Those cutters like rpm and you have to be careful not to over feed. I only use mine for tight radius and thicker work. I find my 140 mm 4Z insert rebate head does just as good or better than the spiral head. It’s only 50mm high though. If your work is less than 2” thick a 120 or so diameter insert rebate head might be better at that speed. Not familiar with your shaper and it’s capabilities though.
I would add to never use double side tape for a shaper jig. Toggle clamps are ok but can slip on certain shapes. A chisel point screw in a section not visible helps with these.

All my door and window work is one off so the jigs tend to be simple and made for power feeding. This one is screwed to the workpiece in non show locations.
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First time shaper curves take your time and build good jigs with handholds and guards!

[brent stanley]

The shaper is made by Poitras. It's a 3/4" shaft but the previous owner, a cabinet shop, used it exclusively with 1 1/4" tooling. It's a more basic design with only one speed. The whole spindle, bearings, and pulley move up and down and on the motor side is a flat belt pulley (like what a flat leather belt would use) so changing speed isn't really an option. The easiest way to pick a speed would be with the diameter of the cutter. I can't tell what size the bearings are but it's rated for up to a 5" cutter.

Update: I found a copy of the manual on-line. The bearings are 6204 (20mmx47mmx14mm). So almost 2" in diameter.

They're a fairly well respected but still relatively light machine. Certainly beefier than the Delta HD and similar, but for that grade of machine and at 8000rpm you'll want smaller diameter blocks. You can find charts that give you general guidelines around RPM and diameter, but most cutter blocks will give you the acceptable RPM range stamped right on the top. Make sure you don't exceed that. I have a Byrd head for template milling but also a few chip limiting rebate blocks that I prefer and usually give a better finish like Joe says.

[Joe Calhoon]

Upper right hand corner is a good example of a safe shaper jig with toggle clamps. Notice at the tailing end of the workpiece it is blocked. This is where a toggle can fail if not blocked or stopped somehow.

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[brent stanley]

Upper right hand corner is a good example of a safe shaper jig with toggle clamps. Notice at the tailing end of the workpiece it is blocked. This is where a toggle can fail if not blocked or stopped somehow.

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Yes, that's a good picture of the blocks I was talking about! I'm doing a cedar exterior door this week with arched rails I'll have to try and get a picture of the jig for holding them.

[Rod Sheridan]

433261433262433263433265Joe indicated that a tenon hood is required, that’s a great choice, I use the curve guard, I find that the brush helps with dust collection.

As others have said, don’t buy a Byrd head if it isn’t a chip limitation type.

I’ve included photographs of my rebate head used for pattern copying and the guide ring.

Regards, Rod.

[scott lipscomb]

I make a lot of curved chair parts on the bandsaw using a template and a follower. Its super fast, drama free, doesn't require special tooling, and produces very good and repeatable results (with a little practice).

[Jamie Buxton]

I make a lot of curved chair parts on the bandsaw using a template and a follower. Its super fast, drama free, doesn't require special tooling, and produces very good and repeatable results (with a little practice).

I use a router with a template and template guides all the time, but I've never heard of a bandsaw with a template and a follower. Sounds interesting. Care to publish a photo or two?

[Jared Sankovich]

The amana head works reasonably well.
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[scott lipscomb]

I use a router with a template and template guides all the time, but I've never heard of a bandsaw with a template and a follower. Sounds interesting. Care to publish a photo or two?
Hey Jamie, Here are a few photos that I took of my process, sorry if the photos don't totally explain it (only photos I could find). I have since, improved my process a little bit by matching the follower (the home made fence clamped to the bandsaw) shape to the curve of the template. There was a good article by Brian Boggs in Fine Woodworking not too long ago. If you are interested, I could shoot some better photos next time I set it up. Similar principles apply as discussed above about making the template longer for lead in , lead out...The other thing that I have started to do is to have the template on the bottom, which is a little trickier, because you can't see the template/follower interface, but is easier because you can don't have to float the follower above the table and also allows me to do some more creative things with the templates.
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[Paul Haus]

I have a 3 HP Grizzly shaper that I've used for similar work. Normally has a 3/4" spindle in it, but I also have a 1" spindle for it. When I was doing rockers, I first made my templates and had toggle clamps to hold the work piece down onto the template. As far as a cutterhead I've tried a 2" high conventional cutter with OK results most of the time. I've since gotten a 2" high spiral insert cutter head for it which I prefer. It's 4" o.d. with a 1 1/4" bore along with a 4" bearing. To use the cutter and bearing, I use a pair of T-bushings along with a Double T-bushing to fit between the cutter and bearing (I have 3/4" to 1 1/4" and 1" to 1 1/4" T-bushings and Double T-bushings) , I did mill one side of the double bushing down about maybe 1/8" so the double and T-bushing did not touch each other inside the bearing. With this setup I can use the cutter and bearing on either spindle in the shaper as sometimes it's a quick job and don't want to swap out the spindle.
The templates I used are extended maybe 3" to 4" beyond the end of the work piece on both ends. Using a starter pin I'm able to pivot the template in the area before the work piece onto the bearing then move the template and work piece past the cutterhead to end beyond the piece to be shaped. Once the bottom arc is done, I use another template and shape the upper portion of the rocker. Been doing this for some time and it's worked out well. Happens I've gotten great results with the spiral insert cutterhead regardless of the grain in the pieces being shaped. The work pieces are trimmed to about 1/8" proud of the line to be shaped to, so it's not a massive cut though this spiral cutterhead seems to be able to hog off much more wood if desired though I don't do that.
Hope that helps

[Jamie Buxton]

Hey Jamie, Here are a few photos that I took of my process, sorry if the photos don't totally explain it (only photos I could find). I have since, improved my process a little bit by matching the follower (the home made fence clamped to the bandsaw) shape to the curve of the template. There was a good article by Brian Boggs in Fine Woodworking not too long ago. If you are interested, I could shoot some better photos next time I set it up. Similar principles apply as discussed above about making the template longer for lead in , lead out...The other thing that I have started to do is to have the template on the bottom, which is a little trickier, because you can't see the template/follower interface, but is easier because you can don't have to float the follower above the table and also allows me to do some more creative things with the templates.

Thanks for trying, but I don't get it from those photos. I'll go look for the Boggs article.

[Jamie Buxton]

Hey Jamie, Here are a few photos that I took of my process, sorry if the photos don't totally explain it (only photos I could find). I have since, improved my process a little bit by matching the follower (the home made fence clamped to the bandsaw) shape to the curve of the template. There was a good article by Brian Boggs in Fine Woodworking not too long ago. If you are interested, I could shoot some better photos next time I set it up. Similar principles apply as discussed above about making the template longer for lead in , lead out...The other thing that I have started to do is to have the template on the bottom, which is a little trickier, because you can't see the template/follower interface, but is easier because you can don't have to float the follower above the table and also allows me to do some more creative things with the templates.
433290433291433292

So.. in your first photo, the follower is that piece of baltic birch just in front of the blade. It touches the template, which is fastened to the top of the workpiece. The template and workpiece can be seen in the third photo. In both the first and third pix, there's wood below the follower. I *think* that's just offcuts.
In the Boggs write-up (Nov/Dec 2018), it seems that he has fastened his follower to the blade guide, as contrasted to your approach, where it fastens to the table.

[Kevin Jenness]

Jamie, the guide finger is adjusted flush with the blade and works like a fixed guide collar on a shaper (without the offset). I have used a similar guide with a cutout around the blade so the template can bear on it both before and after the cut. I generally prefer the shaper because I can get a more precise result with less sanding, but there is no doubt the bandsaw setup is safer and gives decent results.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2008/07/01/a-bandsaw-jig-for-repeatable-complex-curves

One thing that Joe Calhoon touched on relating to safety is that often a curved template can be run with the powerfeed. If the workpiece can be secured with screws on a hidden face that helps. It may be necessary to remove all but one wheel to accommodate feeding the curve. A serpentine curve like a Maloof rocker would be more difficult than a plain arc.

[Joe Calhoon]

Kevin,
I generally use the feeder on long and flatter curves. Tight radius I prefer hand feed. On door and window parts the template can usually be screwed somewhere. In this picture I attached to the tenons. Using the feeder - one wheel by tilting on its nose or if your feeder does not do that just remove wheels. The center of wheel should be approximately 20mm to the outfeed side of cutter center.
my templates are quick and dirty and would stress for first time users to build good templates. It’s also possible with split tooling for door and window work to use no template but that’s another subject.

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[Joe Calhoon]

Bandsaw and sanding is a method I use for a lot of one off work. I have a nice Oliver 381 that makes that easy. But generally shaper is better if any quantity or in the case of windows and doors where a profile is required.

[Alex Zeller]

Thanks for all the replies. One of the reasons why I started this now, before I'm ready to try, is I wanted time to process all of the different opinions.

[Alex Zeller]

I have a 3 HP Grizzly shaper that I've used for similar work. Normally has a 3/4" spindle in it, but I also have a 1" spindle for it. When I was doing rockers, I first made my templates and had toggle clamps to hold the work piece down onto the template. As far as a cutterhead I've tried a 2" high conventional cutter with OK results most of the time. I've since gotten a 2" high spiral insert cutter head for it which I prefer. It's 4" o.d. with a 1 1/4" bore along with a 4" bearing. To use the cutter and bearing, I use a pair of T-bushings along with a Double T-bushing to fit between the cutter and bearing (I have 3/4" to 1 1/4" and 1" to 1 1/4" T-bushings and Double T-bushings) , I did mill one side of the double bushing down about maybe 1/8" so the double and T-bushing did not touch each other inside the bearing. With this setup I can use the cutter and bearing on either spindle in the shaper as sometimes it's a quick job and don't want to swap out the spindle.
The templates I used are extended maybe 3" to 4" beyond the end of the work piece on both ends. Using a starter pin I'm able to pivot the template in the area before the work piece onto the bearing then move the template and work piece past the cutterhead to end beyond the piece to be shaped. Once the bottom arc is done, I use another template and shape the upper portion of the rocker. Been doing this for some time and it's worked out well. Happens I've gotten great results with the spiral insert cutterhead regardless of the grain in the pieces being shaped. The work pieces are trimmed to about 1/8" proud of the line to be shaped to, so it's not a massive cut though this spiral cutterhead seems to be able to hog off much more wood if desired though I don't do that.
Hope that helps

Paul, what speed do you run your spiral cutter at?

[Warren Lake]

if its a poitras 2800 I seem to remember them being 7,000 RPM

[scott lipscomb]

Yes, that's correct, Jamie. Apologize again that I didn't photograph the process very well. The third photo shows the template on the piece. Its not a great example because its better if the template is long to give a little bit of lead it. Also, since then, I have started to put the follower on the bottom, so that I can clamp it to the table. The other thing that I have started to do is make the follower the inverse shape of the template curve to give better registration. I also apologize for using the term "follower" as it doesn't seem to follow anything and its in front of the blade, not behind it, though I have also started to use one that is both in front and behind. I'll try to take better photos and maybe start a new thread next time I batch some curved chair parts.

[Jamie Buxton]

.. I'll try to take better photos and maybe start a new thread next time I batch some curved chair parts...

That would be good. I think I see what's going on, but I'll bet there's more.

[Warren Lake]

was told 7000 RPM but found 6000 on printed material

[Paul Haus]

Paul, what speed do you run your spiral cutter at?
I run it at the lower shaper speed, 7K rpm IIRC. Hope that helps.

[Alex Zeller]

It's a 2800B. It didn't say on it so I measured the rpm of the spindle. It was a little over 7800 rpm.

Thanks Paul. Since I can't change the speed the only thing I can change is the diameter of the cutter. It looks like 4" running around 7,000 to 8,000 should be about right.

[Warren Lake]

I think my dealer told me 7000 then below is the printed material I found stating 6,000 RPM




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[Jared Sankovich]

Certainly a interesting design, and quite a bit heavier than I would have guessed for a 3hp 3/4" machine.
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[Warren Lake]

its 304 lb I have friends that weigh that much. I like the build better a bit over General stuff as it doesnt have the usually flapping sheet steel base.

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[Jared Sankovich]

its 304 lb I have friends that weigh that much. I like the build better a bit over General stuff as it doesnt have the usually flapping sheet steel base.

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Well that is considerably lighter than the 750lbs I saw listed

[Alex Zeller]

The basic design hasn't changed but the specs for it seam to have. The spindle stayed 3/4" but it's almost 7" long so it can hold a cutter up to 5 1/2" tall. It was offered without a motor and I think just before being bought out a 3hp motor. But I have seen them with 2hp motors. So it's very hard to tell exactly if the motor on it came with the shaper. As I said in my OP post the motor on mine is massive. If you just glanced at it you would assume at least 5hp or more likely 7.5hp. I know size isn't directly related to HP but I have yet to have anyone who's looked at it say "wow". I'm guessing it was designed to be used in an industrial environment.

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[Rod Sheridan]

It's a 2800B. It didn't say on it so I measured the rpm of the spindle. It was a little over 7800 rpm.

Thanks Paul. Since I can't change the speed the only thing I can change is the diameter of the cutter. It looks like 4" running around 7,000 to 8,000 should be about right.

Hi Alex, for a 4" (100mm) cutter, 7,000 RPM is only 37 metres/second which is a bit low. I would check the recommended minimum cutter speed with the manufacturer, and if you can't find any info, use 40 metres per second.

The other possibility is if the shaper is rated for it, use a 125mm rebate cutter which will be fine at 7,000 RPM..............Regards, Rod.

[Warren Lake]

not the stock motor and largest size at the time was 2HP. I checked with a dealer on the RPM and havent heard back. There was not option for two different spindles I as aware or or told about at the the time but there was optional stuff I see in printed material. Its in another language and I missed that french class.




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[brent stanley]

Like Warren says, I think they shipped regularly without a motor (it refers to recommended motor sizes) so whatever is on there now, isn't necessarily correlated to what should be on there.....the owners could put 25hp on there if it would fit the mounts and not tip it over. :) It's a bit of an awkward RPM in that it's at the upper range for some larger blocks that might do a great job, but not fast enough for smaller blocks that would be easier on the bearings. Seeing as you're actually down in the high 7000s range, a 100mm diameter rebate block ought to work well. Many 125mm diameter rebate blocks are rated for 8000 rpm, but unless they're aluminum they'll be a bit much weight for that machine. I use a 100mm, shear cut rebate block at 7500 RPM all the time with excellent results.

[brent stanley]

It's a decent little machine, and might be worth putting a little money into. You could replace the motor with a 3ph one and add on a vfd for infinite rpm control, motor braking etc and save that nice 3hp, 1ph motor for something else.

[Warren Lake]

like most of the machines i got at the time they came with two motor options with the lower one being not enough and same at times with the larger one. The one I have has the motor painted the same as the machine as it came on the machine. Ive never calculated a feed rate, 2 Hp and a braised raised panel is well under powered. Measure the top of the spindle down to whatever block as at the bottom and see what you get. Dont member any option of a longer spindle or even think it would be safe. What diameter is the drum on the motor? I can check that against the one here. No one changed stuff on it.

[Alex Zeller]

I can check the diameter of the drum but I have to believe that it's the original. Unless they made different sizes I would suspect they are all the same diameter. The pulley could be changed but where it sits there's not much room to go much larger to slow it down. But a smaller one would work to speed it up a little.

Can you get a rub collar for a rebate cutter? That's why I ended up looking at the Byrd cutters. They come in several different diameters to try to best work with the shaper's fixed speed and a bearing/ rub collar.

[Mike Kees]

Alex I have one of these shapers ,currently sitting in a barn. Mine is also a Poitras but I think older than the one you have. The guy I bought mine from Had a smaller flat pulley machined and put a five horsepower motor on it. I have never used this machine,I need to bring it to my shop and clean it up and try it out. I remember looking at the spindle in mine and it was 1 1/4'' coming up through the bearings then turned down to the 3/4" diameter.

[Mike Kees]

I have an Amana rub collar that you can buy different diameter outside rings for. They are aluminum and you just press the bearing in to the size you need. I have one that is 100mm and am pretty sure that you can get other diameters from them.

[brent stanley]

Can you get a rub collar for a rebate cutter? That's why I ended up looking at the Byrd cutters. They come in several different diameters to try to best work with the shaper's fixed speed and a bearing/ rub collar.

Absolutely, a lot of manufacturers make bearings to exactly match their rebate blocks and though an exact match isn't strictly required, it's convenient a lot of times.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes, that's why I included a photo of it with my rebate cutter.

With a guide ring the same diameter as the cutter you can pattern copy to make the shape, then put a smaller guide ring and rebate the profile...........Rod.

[Warren Lake]

need to identify what that machine really is, my dealer got back saying 8,000 RPM so questioned him against the manual or measure out your two pulley sizes. I know you used an RPM meter just wondered if it could be wrong. THey check my temp for Covid each day I see my mom and their infra red gauges is more accurate than miine. Old style heads for solid we matched the bearing then could take off any amount more. YOu needed .015 more off or .030 you just turned a screw. Not tooling for everyone but could do stuff new stuff cant.

[Warren Lake]

dealer got back to me that said it was 8,000 and now its maybe im right and its 6,000. He has no printed material left its just too far i the past. Id say measure pulley size, you have your meter and its either correct or not as well. The drive shaft on the spindle is contained and I cant see someone altering that easily but its possible. Motor drum can be measured. I can check what this one has as well

[Alex Zeller]

I'm using a Mitutoyo digital rotation meter. It's older and I have no idea if it's still in calibration but it should be pretty close. I don't know if they even make it anymore. I'll measure the drum and try to measure the pulley this weekend. I rarely use it so it's in the back corner of the shop. I got it for $100 so I couldn't pass it up (I'm as bad as the wife is with shoes when it comes to tools). I'll dig it out and check the spindle speed once again.

[Warren Lake]

HI Alex

I have mititoyou stuff and its excellent my caliper has been beat to snot for likely 40 years. I sent them a photo and told them they make outstanding stuff, battle scars and all. knocked off dropped left on on and more. Works perfectly and paid for itself five times over. Not the way to treat a precision tool but it lives in my tool belt and thats doomed from the start. Batteres last longer in their caliper than any others ive had as well, that comes in handy when it gets turned on in my belt and I find days later that its been on, then it works for two more years or more before needing the next battery.

I dont have an RPM thing when I can ill measure the pulley here on this one.


here is an ad for Mititotyou quality, I dont own the company. .0005 sectioned off as taught by a top tool and die maker to make it easier for me to get it instantly


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[Alex Zeller]

I have two of their 6" digital calipers, one with a scar and the other with the wrong battery door. I also have a HF one that's 12". The HF just feels like there's sand in it when you slide it. Came that way new. This is a picture of the same model tachometer I have. The picture doesn't show it but there's attachments that go on the top. You just push it against the spinning shaft and it measures the speed. It's good for up to 30,000 rpm. They aren't cheap (like all of their stuff) but they do come in handy.
https://assets.suredone.com/1726/media-photos/dis6937-mitutoyo-digital-tachometer-982-522-2.jpeg