Walnut Log help

[Jebediah Eckert]

I was able to get a Black Walnut tree from a friend in town. Dropped it yesterday, limbed it, and had a local guy bring it to my house. I am going to have a WoodMizer guy come saw it into boards. He has been doing it for 20 years and people seem happy with him. The logs are 16’ and 8’, and will probably all be 8’ for ease of stacking it and moving. I plan on air drying it. The tree was about 28” at the base and was 24” diameter at 32’ up.

Now the question -

What size should I get it cut into? I Know this is sort of a dumb question, it depends on what I want to use it for...I am a hobbyist who occasionally takes commissions, and I may sell a little to recover some of the cost. I can see a one board coffee table or two, or a two board kitchen table. I have never made a chair but that is also on the list, maybe a countertop amongst a bunch of smaller projects etc. I’m just making my best guess at what it will become a few years from now.

I had a bunch of cherry milled about 10 years ago. For the cherry I was sending it to a kiln so I made it all the same at 5/4. Plenty of my projects had too much waste at 5/4 but it was good for some others. This time around I can cut a variety because it won’t go into a kiln.

I saw one video where they slabbed the middle 1/3 and quarter saw the other two 1/3’s? I will probably leave it all live edge If that is the way it comes out, but I don’t need it that way. Those slabs were cut at 10/4?

Just wondering what people have found that worked for them?

The unpainted end is at 32’ up the tree.

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[Jebediah Eckert]

Sorry for pics, I struggle with posting them.....not sure how the above happened but you get the idea.

[John TenEyck]

From your description of potential project uses it seems like 8 or 9/4 would be a good choice. It's just going to take a long time to air dry and then more time to come down to a usable MC after you bring it indoors. As long as you are good with that, have at it. If you can get the bark off though I would do so even if you have it sawn as live edge. Bark is just a place for bugs to start.

There might be something around 170 - 200 bf of lumber in one of those 8' logs. Three logs like that is a nice score. How much is the sawyer charging to mill it?

John

[Dan McGonigle]

Just wanted to share my .02 - I use a chainsaw mill to slab boards and air dry them on my property. Just cut about 85 bd.ft of cherry a few days ago. For me, I 8/4 everything, except sometimes the pith section I'll go 12/4. Sure it takes longer to dry - but I figure I can get a true 8/4 board, two 3/4" or 5/8" boards, and more and more when you go thinner. I use a lot of thin material - 1/8 - 3/8 , bigger things I choose 5/8 over 3/4. So I end up getting a lot of use out of 8/4, at the cost of tedious resawing of course. So I would consider what size boards you typically choose based on your typical projects. I should note that I cut 8/4 at about 2 1/8" - the chainsaw doesnt exactly leave a smooth surface. The lumber I've hired out to a mobile sawyer is much cleaner.

[John TenEyck]

Dan, I used to use a chainsaw mill before I got my bandsaw mill. The chainsaw cut was nearly as smooth as from the bandsaw. Maybe you are using the wrong chain or your bar is worn. I had the best results with Oregon ripping chain ground at 10°. Whenever things went bad it was because the chain wasn't sharp on one side or the other or the groove in the bar had keystoned and needed to be replaced.

John

[John K Jordan]

I have a woodmizer and mostly cut 8/4 and 10/4 for woodturning unless I need 4/4 for something, such as building siding. But probably not walnut.

I usually shim up one end of a log so the pith is horizontal then either cut down the pith if it's straight or cut out an 8/4 section which I then cut to get two clear quarter sawn narrower pieces with no pith. Then I flip the 1/2 around with flat side down and cut boards or slabs as I feel like. Fortunately I don't have to worry about what will sell since I don't sell.

If I cut down the pith it lets me see what the inside is like and decide from there. For wood turning use I often leave at part of the log in a 1/2 round and process in to turning squares (2x2 to 6x6) to dry or into large bowl blanks if someone wants some. I cut a 22" cherry log like this the other day for a friend - he tool half and made big bowl blanks and I cut the other half into to smaller turning squares and platter and shallow bowl blanks to dry.

Deciding how to cut is part calculation and part art and a whole lot preference.

JKJ

[Prashun Patel]

I would slab it into 8/4 or 9/4. That will give you good options for table tops and chair or furniture legs. Even if you get some splitting, the qs pieces on the edges of the slab will probably be salvageable.

You could always resaw it if necessary.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thank you that all makes sense. Maybe I will just go a heavy 8/4 and split the difference.

[Jebediah Eckert]

From your description of potential project uses it seems like 8 or 9/4 would be a good choice. It's just going to take a long time to air dry and then more time to come down to a usable MC after you bring it indoors. As long as you are good with that, have at it. If you can get the bark off though I would do so even if you have it sawn as live edge. Bark is just a place for bugs to start.

There might be something around 170 - 200 bf of lumber in one of those 8' logs. Three logs like that is a nice score. How much is the sawyer charging to mill it?

John

There are actually (5) 8 foot logs at those dimensions (two 16’s and an 8). I think the smallest end of the last one is 22” inches or so to the crotch. Then there are (2) more 10 footers that start at 20 inch or so and both go into a crotch.

The Sawyer is charging $95 an hour but he comes with two people and said I can help as well. I told him what I had and how I was thinking of cutting it and he said 3 hours. I expect it to be more. There are a few others around, but further away for them, and they seem to charge .40 a bd ft. measured from the log. I figure if I have 1,200 board foot or so that would be $480 so they all are similar. I liked the hourly guy because he was helpful on the phone about ways to cut it. The rest of the guys were good, but pretty much said “you tell us how to cut it, and we will cut it that way.” I’m sure they are all fine.

This was the harder tree to get. There are two more 30” ones at the same property but probably only have two 8’ prime trunks on each to total 4. It was too much to deal with at once.

I may end up doing a solar kiln at some point. Seems like as good a time as any.......

[John K Jordan]

To me, charging by the board foot in the log doesn't seem fair. I don't saw for money, but it's a LOT less time and effort and wear on the blade to cut a log into fewer wide planks than a bunch of 4/4. To cut a log in half for woodturning use takes only one pass on the saw! Sure, thicker boards/slabs are heavier to handle but with several people it is no problem - I usually do it all myself.

And when cutting boards I usually square up the sides which takes extra time and doesn't change the square footage. I suspect the board foot guys are charging for the worst case and enjoy the bonanza when a job doesn't take as much time.

Be advised that many sawyers charge for replacing a blade if they hit something in the wood, $30 or so. You might ask. Embedded screws, nails, or porcelain fence insulators are likely with a forest tree than a yard tree but there are a lot of BIG trees deep in the woods with embedded barbed wire from long-ago farm land. I have some like that over 36" in diameter. If the guy is good he may bring a metal detector to check suspicious areas. (Steel in walnut can make dark stains both near and far from the steel.)

BTW, another way you can sometimes get logs sawn is on "shares" with private mill owners. I don't saw for money but I will do shares - the guy brings the log and helps at the mill, we make two piles, he takes one, I keep one, and no money changes hands. The WoodMizer site is supposed to have a list of owners willing to saw, some commercially, some hobby. They offered to sign me up but I declined.

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JKJ



There are actually (5) 8 foot logs at those dimensions (two 16’s and an 8). I think the smallest end of the last one is 22” inches or so to the crotch. Then there are (2) more 10 footers that start at 20 inch or so and both go into a crotch.

The Sawyer is charging $95 an hour but he comes with two people and said I can help as well. I told him what I had and how I was thinking of cutting it and he said 3 hours. I expect it to be more. There are a few others around, but further away for them, and they seem to charge .40 a bd ft. measured from the log. I figure if I have 1,200 board foot or so that would be $480 so they all are similar. I liked the hourly guy because he was helpful on the phone about ways to cut it. The rest of the guys were good, but pretty much said “you tell us how to cut it, and we will cut it that way.” I’m sure they are all fine.

This was the harder tree to get. There are two more 30” ones at the same property but probably only have two 8’ prime trunks on each to total 4. It was too much to deal with at once.

I may end up doing a solar kiln at some point. Seems like as good a time as any.......

[Dan McGonigle]

Dan, I used to use a chainsaw mill before I got my bandsaw mill. The chainsaw cut was nearly as smooth as from the bandsaw. Maybe you are using the wrong chain or your bar is worn. I had the best results with Oregon ripping chain ground at 10°. Whenever things went bad it was because the chain wasn't sharp on one side or the other or the groove in the bar had keystoned and needed to be replaced.

John

Could be - It's a regular crosscut chain. I try to do a quick sharpen every 3 slabs or so, but I can't say I'm doing a good job sharpening. I'm close to ordering a 36" Oregon bar and ripping chain - I have some huge maple logs that I'll need a bigger bar for. Not really sure if my Stihl 046 can pull 36" chain, its not rated for it, but its a risk I will end up taking. I can't afford a new chainsaw, or bandsaw mill, or frankly a mobile sawyer. So I'll roll the dice.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks John, great tips!

I’m not sure on the blade, but I expect that. I did know that from when I did the cherry.

I don’t do any real turning so I didn’t take that into account for the sizing.

What mill is that you are using? None of the fancy hydraulic? Do you find that difficult to turn or maneuver the logs. I’m sure you load them with a tractor, but placing them and turning them when needed?

[John K Jordan]

What mill is that you are using? None of the fancy hydraulic? Do you find that difficult to turn or maneuver the logs. I’m sure you load them with a tractor, but placing them and turning them when needed?

Not sure which John you are addressing, but I'll answer: this John has a manual LT-15 WoodMizer mill with no hydraulics. Very large logs can be a chore. Once on the sawmill bed I turn logs and cants with 5' cant hooks, sometimes with help from a large pry bar, sometimes with help from a second person.

I've loaded logs all sorts of ways, rolling up an incline, lifting with skidding tongs with short chains held in hooks in the tractor bucket, with forks on the tractor or skid steer. A few months ago I got the ultimate general purpose log handler. I can pick up logs weighing up to about 3000 lbs for moving, chainsawing, and for setting very gently on the mill.

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So far the biggest diameter I've handled has been about 30", a little too big for my sawmill. The mill will supposedly take 28" logs but logs less than 24" are a lot easier to handle. I can turn and saw them without assistance. I generally unload even heavy labs by sliding them onto forks on the tractor positioned close to the mill.


People who have come to help have commented that it was a lot more work than they imagined. If sawing for money I'd get a larger mill with the hydraulics.

JKJ

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thank you John Jordan. I’m impressed by the size mill and what you get out of it. Even a 24” log is seems tough to handle.

I can see the hydraulics would make it faster and easier, but sawing for your own use looks like you have a great system.

Thanks for the input.

[John K Jordan]

Thank you John Jordan. I’m impressed by the size mill and what you get out of it. Even a 24” log is seems tough to handle.
I can see the hydraulics would make it faster and easier, but sawing for your own use looks like you have a great system.
Thanks for the input.

IMO, absolutely worth having if your space and situation allow.

I don't know the current price but I think I paid about $7000 years ago. Came by FedEx! I bought an extra bed section which will (with care) handle a 17' log. I use the mill to cut siding and dimensional lumber for farm buildings, occasional slabs, a beam or two for mantles for friends, and wood for woodturning. The clamps on that old logs are designed for "normal" logs at least 4' long. But I rig up a sacrificial support to allow cutting short pieces, popular with those who like to turn big bowls from green wood. And since our woodturning club has an annual wood auction to help support club activities and several charities, it gives me the opportunity to easily cut some large blanks.

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Although I don't get much time to saw, it can be great fun! It's amazing sometimes to "open" a log and see the color and figure revealed. And to watch the changes as layer after layer of boards or slabs are removed is educational!

A side benefit is to provide wood to those who use it for heating in the winter who have collected it by the truckload, and some pieces to friends and neighbors that make things. An elderly neighbor sits every day on a short bench he made from some 8/4 cedar. One friend asked for a piece for decorating and picked a small slab of eastern red cedar that due to voids shape was almost worthless for my use. She told me later they cleaned it up, smoothed and finished, and hung it on the wall over the bed - and got exclamations from some of their friends and relatives who saw it!

Another benefit is educational - I often have kids from little to teens and adults visit. Some have not made the mental connection between trees and things made from wood. I sometimes (with them standing way back) cut a 4/4 board off a log and give them a small piece to take home. Some of the older visitors get to crank the mill and cut a board.

JKJ

[Scott T Smith]

Jebidiah, the first photo in your pix shows an off-center pith in the log, and a wide sapwood band. The off-center pith indicates either a leaning tree, or a log end right below where the tree may have forked. Either way, there are inconsistent stresses in the log in the area of the off entered pith, and the wood will usually warp, twist, etc more than normal.

The wide sapwood band is a concern (typically found in yard trees) because although it shrinks at the same rate, sapwood will dry faster than the heart wood, causing shrinkage stresses to occur along the outside of the boards. This typically leads to very deep end splits in the lumber.

I’m not able to read the log ends where you have applied the colored sealer, but it appears that the pith may be more centered in them, which is good.

If it were me, I would not mill live edge lumber from any of the logs that had a very wide sapwood band (wider than 10% of the overall log diameter. Said differently, on a 20” diameter log, no more than 1” of sapwood on each side). The reason why is that many of the boards tend to split 2 - 3 feet into the board, rendering them almost useless.

My mix of lumber would be 1/3 milled at 4/4, 1/3 at 5/4, and 1/3 at 8/4, but I’d look at each log before making a final determination.

I would not square the cant, but edge *some* but not all of the sapwood from each plank after milling, leaving 3/4 - 1” per side. That will allow you to have some nice bookmatched boards. Also, when the boards are straight line ripped after drying, having a narrow sapwood band along the edge of the boards will allow you to edge off sapwood instead of heart wood.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Yes, I have thought about it more then once for all those reasons. I guess I have been more worried about the “learning curve”.

One of the versions of the WoodMizer LT 15 seems like it would fall into what I would end up with. They make a wider version now, of course different engine choices from 14hp on up, and the option for push, crank, or automatic operation in that series.

I wouldn’t need to travel anywhere with it and I have a tractor and forks to load logs.

[John TenEyck]

Good info Scott. Thanks very much, from a guy who just started milling with a bandsaw mill about a year ago, but with a chainsaw mill for 15 years prior to that.

OP, if you are interested in buying a mill, Woodland Mills new HM-130Max is hard to beat on price and performance. $4300 for a ground based mill that can handle a 30" dia log and also mill the full 30" width. You can extend the length to 16 ft or more, and you can add their Woodlander trailer, too, if you want a portable unit. I have last year's model, the HM-130 on the trailer, with log loading ramps and a hand winch to roll the logs up onto the mill. This is about a 24" black walnut log going up onto the mill.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eW6NzWvL4M9fbOIWh59xIPOKjui61tdWlVbx7wi5gAgvYoiBW CNl_nXs8Pl15xR2KkitdDB_aO-jHo4qQ5yFKyGXXPzjoAms1lmcXPonity3Y5mYTDEIHcpP_jg6U yekrNQxtCh07RqCn73KNqiroGYQ=w1006-h566-no?authuser=0

Between cuts I roll the log or cant on the mill with a cant hook most of the time, but for really heavy ones I use the winch by adding a cant hook to the end of the cable and wrapping it around the log. I stole that idea from Norwood and it works great. The mill truly is a one man operation. Hydraulics would be great, but I was on a budget (who isn't), and what you see in the photo plus extra blades and parts kit came to about $7300.

The mill is super easy to operate and gives excellent cut quality:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ciyLV3OOBV1FU7ud66md9rbiHwRK4VuAOFGkxJxHouOX6ctqD T0KBQORclnatUDulTlDT0HVWPFU4-MhHbwBiQF7MyAFcxP4hMqo7QY103jaisGOcLoOO4oLx9k6CzpO W06lurrmJJ5cAER3MgsagPfw=w1006-h566-no?authuser=0

I was concerned the 14 hp motor wouldn't be enough but have been pleasantly surprised that it's more than enough even when cutting up to the 22" limit. Green wood cuts a lot easier than what we are used to with dry wood in our shops.

Thanks for the feedback on what the mill operators are charging. Now that people know I have a mill they are starting to ask how much I would charge to mill their logs.

If you want to build a solar kiln, it's not a hard project. After I bought the mill I built one with about 750 bf capacity using loosely based on plans from Wood magazine. I use solar panels to power the fans. It will dry air dry wood to 7% in 3 - 5 weeks.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cmatPvr1BkP_skW1GLix8-Ew-3cIxY50b9oW1e5mJb5VOcl-2pNbKUAo9IIE6YtKHoP5Lmd3DGXekULBPD25YklRU7soU0nQMD zRVIApQhM2DIi4SPje1Q9atsFjD_qjPaqnD4b2ikXFhnxSF7hC VG0A=w1006-h566-no?authuser=0


The drier cost about $2K all in to build.


John

[Prashun Patel]

Wow, what a great thread. It has been great being a fly on this wall. Thanks for sharing, Guys.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Jebidiah, the first photo in your pix shows an off-center pith in the log, and a wide sapwood band. The off-center pith indicates either a leaning tree, or a log end right below where the tree may have forked. Either way, there are inconsistent stresses in the log in the area of the off entered pith, and the wood will usually warp, twist, etc more than normal.

The wide sapwood band is a concern (typically found in yard trees) because although it shrinks at the same rate, sapwood will dry faster than the heart wood, causing shrinkage stresses to occur along the outside of the boards. This typically leads to very deep end splits in the lumber.

I’m not able to read the log ends where you have applied the colored sealer, but it appears that the pith may be more centered in them, which is good.

If it were me, I would not mill live edge lumber from any of the logs that had a very wide sapwood band (wider than 10% of the overall log diameter. Said differently, on a 20” diameter log, no more than 1” of sapwood on each side). The reason why is that many of the boards tend to split 2 - 3 feet into the board, rendering them almost useless.

My mix of lumber would be 1/3 milled at 4/4, 1/3 at 5/4, and 1/3 at 8/4, but I’d look at each log before making a final determination.

I would not square the cant, but edge *some* but not all of the sapwood from each plank after milling, leaving 3/4 - 1” per side. That will allow you to have some nice bookmatched boards. Also, when the boards are straight line ripped after drying, having a narrow sapwood band along the edge of the boards will allow you to edge off sapwood instead of heart wood.

Thank you much for the info. I wish I took pics before I painted the ends, next time. The only one I hadn’t painted was the one I posted and that was the one 32’ feet up the tree. I just finished getting the logs up off the ground and squared a few of the ends....but of course I painted them before I read this. I did not measure the sap wood unfortunately but I think it was about 1”-1.5” or so. I did measure the pith and the bottom of the first log was about as centered as you can get at 28” diameter. The top of the next 8 foot log was also closely centered and was a 24” diameter. The sap on that end looked uniform but I didn’t pay much attention beyond that. I will be happy with whatever I get but your tips will certainly help getting usable stuff.

Thank you.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thank you John TenEyck, I will check out the mill and the kiln plans.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Scott Smith-

I took a walk out to admire my organized pile. I’m afraid the only end that you can see much through the paint is the one shown. It is the top of the first 8’ section. The sap wood is about 1 1/2” each side and the diameter inside the bark is 26”. That doesn’t fall under the 10% rule so don’t slab any of this? Or is it close enough to give it a try and hope for the best? It will get used either way. I measured the centers top and bottom of the first (3) 8 footers and they are either nicely centered or as much as half inch off or so from center.

I should have taken pics. Through internet research it seems you should seal the ends ASAP, so that is what I did. Of course I could have taken a pic before but it didn’t even cross my mind.

A big hunk of bark peeled off the first 8’ log when I tried to get my forks under it, man that was heavy. Do the vertical lines / raised ridges mean anything I should be concerned about?

If you see something that makes this project a waste of time? I certainly won’t be offended. So far I am into it for my time and $100 for the transport, even as firewood it would still be a win. I’d much rather have firewood then a big stack of twisted split junk, after paying a Sawyer, stacking etc......I have never had firewood do anything but what it was supposed to...haha

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[John K Jordan]

Thank you much for the info. I wish I took pics before I painted the ends, next time. ...

What paint did you use? The reason I ask is oil-based paints are reasonably good but latex paint has a poor reputation for protecting the end grain, even with several coats. Apparently moisture travels quickly through latex. I read in a government brochure that aluminum paint is good.

A commonly used sealer is AnchorSeal from UC Coatings. It's a water-based wax emulsion, goes on with a paint brush or a sprayer, and dries to a coat of paraffin. Wax lets some water through but helps a lot to prevent end grain checks and cracks by slowing the moisture loss at the ends enough to let the moisture gradient inside flatten. I and other woodturners I know use it on the end grain of every turning blank and all good logs that I saw. A log without a good sealant will crack on the end since rapid drying from the pores causes rapid shrinkage in the first few inches. Many don't seal at all but I find I lose about 6" from each end without sealing.

Fortunately, walnut is fairly stable when drying compared to some species.

JKJ

[Jebediah Eckert]

It was leftover “oops” color exterior paint I bought for some beehives years ago and this was extra. I figured it was free, I had it on hand, and had to get rid of it anyhow. I used AnchorSeal on the cherry logs from years ago. If it wasn’t for the virus I would have ventured out and bought a bucket of it.

[Scott T Smith]

Scott Smith-

I took a walk out to admire my organized pile. I’m afraid the only end that you can see much through the paint is the one shown. It is the top of the first 8’ section. The sap wood is about 1 1/2” each side and the diameter inside the bark is 26”. That doesn’t fall under the 10% rule so don’t slab any of this? Or is it close enough to give it a try and hope for the best? It will get used either way. I measured the centers top and bottom of the first (3) 8 footers and they are either nicely centered or as much as half inch off or so from center.

I should have taken pics. Through internet research it seems you should seal the ends ASAP, so that is what I did. Of course I could have taken a pic before but it didn’t even cross my mind.

A big hunk of bark peeled off the first 8’ log when I tried to get my forks under it, man that was heavy. Do the vertical lines / raised ridges mean anything I should be concerned about?

If you see something that makes this project a waste of time? I certainly won’t be offended. So far I am into it for my time and $100 for the transport, even as firewood it would still be a win. I’d much rather have firewood then a big stack of twisted split junk, after paying a Sawyer, stacking etc......I have never had firewood do anything but what it was supposed to...haha

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I think that you’re ok to slab it, but I would edge 1/2 to 2/3 of the sapwood off; otherwise it may split significantly on you.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks Scott, appreciate it.