Made in China sentiment

[Phil Mueller]

As a retail small business owner, selling a number of high quality made in China products, I’m curious of any changes in consumer sentiment. Given the current pandemic, will made in China products be more of a deal breaker, or the same? Obviously, if you avoided made in China in the past, you will continue to avoid those products. So assuming product quality hasn’t changed, is Made in China now more of a deal breaker to you?

PLEASE don’t get political.

And thank you for your input.

[Myk Rian]

If China is the only place something is made, there is no choice.

[Curt Harms]

We're going to be buying "made in China" for quite some time because a lot of products can't be found "made in the U.S.A." no matter the price. China can make very high quality goods, they have a space program and are buying or partnering with Aerospace companies. I wonder if the biggest beneficiaries of the anti-China atmosphere will be other Asian countries or better yet (from my viewpoint) Central/South American countries.

[Patrick Walsh]

I feel the idea is of being persuaded in regard to ones buying habits as a result of the whole covid thing and maybe not buying or minimizing buying from China is pretty well third grade.

I think it would be and or is a bit nieve to say the least to think our government wouldn’t do the same exact thing and hasn’t in some way shape or form of various levels some more minor some just as sever since the founding of this country. Under the current administration it is without question we would do exactly the same if we decided it’s what we wanted to do. This veil or image that Merca is the white horse some great moral compass that the world should follow and adhere to is joke. Is there worse than Merca. Well sure but if worse is the tool with which you use to measure I’d say you have identified the crux of the problem.

So nope I’ll be buying from China even though I prefer German made. As I don’t think China is the enemy. Personally I think we are are the makers of our own suffering. Most of the time in life we are the maker of our own problems but just try convincing the average man to own his own poop..

[Steve Eure]

I know a lot of people who say they will not buy products made in China anymore. They may have no choice for awhile. For us "aged" folks, I remember the same sentiment of "Made in Japan", back in the seventies. Cheap products, made cheaply. but would get the job done. Now everyone is going "ape" over Japanese hand tools. What's changed? China does have some quality products at some manufacturers. Remember that most of our power tools that we are fond of are made over there.

[Stan Calow]

Some people will grumble, but as said, there may be no other options. People want cheap.

[Phil Mueller]

Yes, we carry some very high quality product from China. I’m happy to get the sense so far, that buying sentiment for made in China isn’t going to change much.

[Jim Becker]

Quality is in the end the most important and quality can be had from anywhere in the world. No one country has a monopoly on that. We live in a global economy at this point and that's not likely to change because, well...humans...also put a lot of emphasis on price when they make purchasing decisions. Further, the business world runs on short term metrics when it comes to profitability. That's why manufacturing has shifted around and will continue to shift around. It's certainly nice to find something that's produced in whatever country we individually call home and supporting domestic manufacturing is a good thing when we have that option. But we may have to be willing to pay a little more for some of those things just because of the economics behind that production.

The folks in China are actually pretty astute. They understood that they couldn't "just produce cheap" and have acted accordingly. Cost of living/labor rates have still enabled favorable pricing, but they kicked up quality big-time for much of what they produce for the world markets just as Japan and Taiwan did before them.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

No. I do not think the current pandemics will change the way people see made in China stuff including the people previously avoided them, like myself.

Actually, it is not a subject I have seem in discussion previously amongst consumers.

I live in Brazil and I maintain strong commercial relationship with people from all other countries in Latin America.

[Frederick Skelly]

I think there may be a level of avoidance for a little while, in some quarters. But as someone said earlier, availability and cost are big drivers for consumers. Few people are willing to wait long for an item, or to pay significantly more for it.

I'm not angry at china. I absolutely think they should have tried to help everyone else, much sooner. But until/unless it is no-kidding confirmed that this escaped from a weapons lab (etc), Im assuming Wuhan was just the unlucky place it started. (Food for thought - if nature starts the next pandemic in Milwaukee, should everyone boycott American products? Might depend on the circumstances.)

Fred

[Mark Bolton]

No one other than the extreme militant (who had likely already avoided Chinese products for the last 20 year) is going to shift for any period of time if at all. Quality has zero to do with any of it in the U.S. its price. The home centers and big box retailers have already re-programmed the consumer to accept crappy clothes, fixtures, furniture, hardware, on and on, in lieu of a "perceived" cheaper price. The average consumer today (the day to day consumer) doesnt even know, or have any recollection of, what quality is anymore. My line Ive used a million times is the corporate cronies and the marketeers have done a masterful job of persevering and purging our economy of the vast majority of quality options so now the consumer just thinks its normal to throw your toilet, kitchen sink, dishwasher, clothes, shoes, away every few months/years. They have had their memories purged of things that last. Then add in the massive elevation in our economy to where someone will rip out or dispose of something that is of decent quality and fully functional for the sake of fashion and it gets even deeper.

The Chinese can make to any level we ask them to. Corporate America has sold them down the river forcing them to make crap so corporate profits, executive compensation, and shareholder payouts, can remain high. Corporate America has screwed their own country, AND has in their infinite wisdom forced other nations to painfully learn the mistakes we learned from like you dont locate plating plants and production facilities next to a river because it allows you to flush your plating waste down the river. But they are instructing facilities to do the very things we did to our environment and workforce all in the drive for greed and profit.

My hope, that will go completely unsatisfied, is that the consumer will see that the balance has been lost between corporate greed and a moral compass.

The whole lot of them are the problem the scales are so out of balance and the population, especially as they age and retire, grovel in support for there meager returns on "investment" scurrying around like mice trying to pack the crumbs in their cheeks.

Abandoning China for their position politically would make sense. For being willing to make the crap we demand.. not so much.

[Doug Dawson]

We're going to be buying "made in China" for quite some time because a lot of products can't be found "made in the U.S.A." no matter the price. China can make very high quality goods, they have a space program

Just for fun: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2323/1

And: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2326/1

Ooopsy daisy! You gotta know where to stand when that thing goes off.

They do require some supervision.

[Mark Bolton]

Just for fun: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2323/1

And: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2326/1

Ooopsy daisy! You gotta know where to stand when that thing goes off.

They do require some supervision.

Do we really want to recount our own learning curve? Including a crew burned to a crisp? Another batch strewn in pieces across our own country on re-entry?

[Mark Bolton]

No one other than the extreme militant

Thanks Jim for at least putting a note in as to who, and why, a portion of the post was edited. Thats a first and is greatly appreciated.

[Doug Dawson]

Do we really want to recount our own learning curve? Including a crew burned to a crisp? Another batch strewn in pieces across our own country on re-entry?

We have Range Safety Officers. And when ours blow up, they don’t cut the camera feed, and there’s a public investigation.

[Mark Bolton]

We have Range Safety Officers. And when ours blow up, they don’t cut the camera feed, and there’s a public investigation.

One would think.

If you dont think we havent covered up miles of poop and cut feeds, redacted, classified, on and on, well...

We are not clean. No one is.

[John K Jordan]

As a retail small business owner, selling a number of high quality made in China products, I’m curious of any changes in consumer sentiment. Given the current pandemic, will made in China products be more of a deal breaker, or the same? Obviously, if you avoided made in China in the past, you will continue to avoid those products. So assuming product quality hasn’t changed, is Made in China now more of a deal breaker to you?

PLEASE don’t get political.

And thank you for your input.

Sentiments change with the wind. Remember the resentment of France in the '90s? To the point of people calling french fries "freedom fries"?

[Edwin Santos]

I realize the original post was an honest question, but in my opinion, it's also nonsensical. The choice you're asking about is not a choice available to the consumer as a practical matter. The vast majority of products have some aspect, component or piece of the supply chain that is either directly or indirectly associated with China, often in conjunction with other places.

The idea of the association between political views and consumerism pretty much ended well before the end of the last century IMO.
The world's economy is now so intensely intertwined that is is not even possible for the average person to tell where one country's involvement ends and another's begins.
A surprising number of products are engineered in one place, manufactured in one, two or more places in components, assembled in another place, packaged in yet another and finally marketed and sold in the US or wherever.

Besides, if a person were to refrain from buying a particular product because of a perception that it was associated with China, they're probably only going to be hurting the American company outsourcing it not to mention themselves. It would be like not buying a Ford vehicle because you have a beef with the guy that worked on the factory line that made it.

Lastly, the single largest retailer in the world (by a long stretch), Wal-Mart, has proven to us all that it is the very rare consumer that will sacrifice their own financial interest over an ideal (read: consumers are creatures of a short term, self interested nature).

Now if your store is selling pagodas or trinkets that are quite obviously Chinese themed, they could be out of fashion at the moment. But other than that, I do not think pedigree will not be obstacle.

[Doug Dawson]

One would think.

If you dont think we havent covered up miles of poop and cut feeds, redacted, classified, on and on, well...

We are not clean. No one is.

That is true. For a counterpoint, pick up a copy of Kate Brown's book "Plutopia", largely the story of the Hanford nuclear site and the poisoning of the Columbia River. But that was wartime, and moreover we didn't have anybody to steal the technology from (which was largely classified anyway.)

[Mark Bolton]

But that was wartime

Wartime or not. It is what it is. We have more than our fair share of dirty in our past wartime or not. We can nationalize it all we want. We stole technology from plenty, WWII in itself is a testament.

Im not trashing the good ol'...

My point is its an easy position to come from on high and its a really nasty position when we have learned from our labor issues, environmental issues, and we now know beyond doubt that we live and operate in a global environment (the pale blue dot) and we have companies willing for the sake of profit to not only destroy another populatio (or could be argued guide them in the pursuit of destroying themselves) for greed when we know the crap we tell them to flush down their river is going to land in our food supply or float across the jetstream and land on our soil. We have pretty much the richest corporation on the planet supporting prison factories that enact "the company store" that we learned from directly that basically enslaves its workforce with a charge/pay arrangement that is consciously setup to where they pretty much can never get out of the situation. We learned that that doesnt work first hand but it made a bunch of people very rich.

They can of course choose on their own to flush their rivers and workforce down the river.. but we have the pretty much an across the board mindset here that is coaching them and avocating they make the same mistakes we learned from. Its nonsensical.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You can any level of quality from China or any other country if you are willing to pay for it. The price you are willing to pay for a given object is the controlling factor. Higher prices can result it higher standards/specifications. Take woodworking tools for example, if you have the money you can buy Northfield or if you are an hobbyist like me, you can buy Grizzly or Powermatic or Harbor Freight. The fit and finish will differ between the similar machines but that's a reasonable expectation for the price paid.

The major factors that have contributed to the decline of manufacturing in this country are production costs and environmental standards.

IMO the one thing that this pandemic has brought to light is that certain "things" (masks, other PPE, possibly mediations, and others) should be manufactured in country for that country's national security.

I had a gunsmithing/machinist friend who after selling his machine company in Alaska, retired back to Lewiston, ID and set up a gunsmithing business. He built custom rifles, hunting rifles, benchrest competition rifles. The metal lathe he bought for his shop was made in Taiwan. Two of the competition rifles he built did well enough in the West Regionals and shot in the Nationals. Ron remarked one day when discussing those two guns "You know there are some excellent quality machines coming out of Taiwan if you are willing to pay for them and they still are much cheaper than the US stuff."

[Doug Dawson]

Wartime or not. It is what it is. We have more than our fair share of dirty in our past wartime or not. We can nationalize it all we want. We stole technology from plenty, WWII in itself is a testament.

Just out of curiosity, what are you referring to?

[Gary Ragatz]

Just out of curiosity, what are you referring to?
I don't want to speak for Mark, but at the end of WWII, we brought a lot of German scientists, most notably Werner von Braun, to the U.S. and put them to work on development of weapons for the U.S. military, and later, in our space program. von Braun had an important role, during the war, in the development of Germany's V-2 rocket technology. In this case, I don't know that we exactly "stole technology," but we certainly "acquired expertise." Some believe that von Braun and others should have been prosecuted as war criminals rather than being put to work in the U.S. and (in von Braun's case) being feted as heroes of our space program.

[Doug Dawson]

I don't want to speak for Mark, but at the end of WWII, we brought a lot of German scientists, most notably Werner von Braun, to the U.S. and put them to work on development of weapons for the U.S. military, and later, in our space program. von Braun had an important role, during the war, in the development of Germany's V-2 rocket technology. In this case, I don't know that we exactly "stole technology," but we certainly "acquired expertise." Some believe that von Braun and others should have been prosecuted as war criminals rather than being put to work in the U.S. and (in von Braun's case) being feted as heroes of our space program.

Refugees from the Nazi war machine came to the US of their own free will, arguably, freely contributing their talents and expertise for fairly obvious reasons. To call that “stolen technology” is to take moral equivalence to an unfortunate extreme. :^/

[Peter Kelly]

I'll continue to avoid the "Made in China" label. No need to send more money to our adversaries.

[Edwin Santos]

The whole lot of them are the problem the scales are so out of balance and the population, especially as they age and retire, grovel in support for there meager returns on "investment" scurrying around like mice trying to pack the crumbs in their cheeks.



Damn man, that sounded just like a Pink Floyd lyric.
Straight off of Animals.

[Brian Holcombe]

Doug, Operation Paperclip is being referenced and it is very well documented. Wernher von Braun is a good example, he was a Sturmbannfurhrer (major) in the SS and was head of the V2 Rocket program. I dont know how long the transition period was but he ended up being a very important figure at NASA.

[Doug Dawson]

Doug, Operation Paperclip is being referenced and it is very well documented. Wernher von Braun is a good example, he was a Sturmbannfurhrer (major) in the SS and was head of the V2 Rocket program. I dont know how long the transition period was but he ended up being a very important figure at NASA.

He decided that that was better than being a very important figure in the USSR under Beria. ;^) Wise choice. But beyond that, it was a matter of expediency in the service of his long-term goals, he was apparently willing to overlook a lot of stuff. Complicated guy. Yes the story is well-known.

[Mel Fulks]

Mark, the toilets were thrown away because this government made our companies make lousy toilets !!
Today I saw a neighborhood post offering a free toilet, I doubt it's a Toto.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... is Made in China now more of a deal breaker to you?
...

Forgetting quality, cost, strategic availability, and political niceties, at some point if you or yours own intellectual property (IP = patent, trade secret, copyrights, etc.), who here will be willing to get that product made in China? ...Anybody expect to continue to 'own' that IP for long?

[Kevin Jenness]

Tom Lehrer's take on the great American hero von Braun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

[Josko Catipovic]

I have no problem. As far as I can see, stuff made in China is generally a better deal than similar stuff made elsewhere.

[Roger Feeley]

When I’m buying, I look first to USA made. It can be a struggle.

My jeans are from All American Clothing. Cotton grown in the us. Thread spun in the us. Cloth woven in the us and, of course, sewn in the us using us thread. The YK zippers are imported.

I buy flannel shirts from Vermont Flannel. There it’s a different story. The fabric comes from Portugal because they say it’s the best.

my dress shoes are Florsheim Royal Imperials made in Missouri back in the ‘70s. I had to get those on eBay. Probably some farmer bought them for a wedding or funeral and never wore them again. I only dress up for marrying or burying so I should be good for life.

tools are another struggle. Big machines are all imported so what are you gonna do.

all cars are made all over. We currently have a Chrysler.

but to answer the original question, I generally will pay an extra 20% for a us made item of equivalent quality. Another 20% if made locally.

[Michael Weber]

The cheap product from China that worries me are generic drugs. If you take any generic it’s produced in China or maybe India. China prohibits FDA inspections in their facilities. After going from a name brand to a generic drug I could tell immediately that while it might have used the same ingredients (maybe, who knows, that’s my point) it didn’t work the way the non generic did. It was very obvious. I mentioned this to the Doctor and told him I didn’t trust the Chinese drugs and from all anyone knew they were loaded with radioactive dirt. That was a bit of hyperbole of course. Or was it? The FDA lacks the power and resources to assure my confidence.

[Ron Citerone]

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/6897215-superfusion

Good Read.

[Brian Elfert]

I try to buy made in the USA (Or at least assembled in the USA) when I can, but sometimes an overseas item is all that is readily available, or the item is only made overseas, or the made in the USA item is significantly more expensive. Sure, China can make decent stuff, but many tool manufacturers don't source the exact same tool from China as was formerly made in the USA. They may ask for cheaper steel, or they may not have the tool finished quite as nice to save a few pennies. Often, the Chinese tool is sold for the same price as the former USA tool so the company makes a lot more profit.

I just got back from buying a Kreg hardware template at Home Depot. I was pleasantly surprised it is made in the USA, but honestly I would have bought it even if made in China as it is a nice design. I have purchased about half my clothing in recent years at a local store that sells only stuff made in the USA, but they don't sell everything. I don't buy khaki pants made in the USA because the prices are outrageous when I can find them online. (The local store only carries jeans and work pants.)

[Mel Fulks]

This is getting a little too dark. I don't understand why defeated scientists should be considered cowardly for deciding to
live and continue their work. Especially for a really good bunch of people !

[Brian Holcombe]

When I’m buying, I look first to USA made. It can be a struggle.

My jeans are from All American Clothing. Cotton grown in the us. Thread spun in the us. Cloth woven in the us and, of course, sewn in the us using us thread. The YK zippers are imported.

I buy flannel shirts from Vermont Flannel. There it’s a different story. The fabric comes from Portugal because they say it’s the best.

my dress shoes are Florsheim Royal Imperials made in Missouri back in the ‘70s. I had to get those on eBay. Probably some farmer bought them for a wedding or funeral and never wore them again. I only dress up for marrying or burying so I should be good for life.

tools are another struggle. Big machines are all imported so what are you gonna do.

all cars are made all over. We currently have a Chrysler.

but to answer the original question, I generally will pay an extra 20% for a us made item of equivalent quality. Another 20% if made locally.

Alden Boot makes shoes in the US and they are fantastic quality.

Northfeild and a few others make excellent traditional woodworking machines.

[John Goodin]

For most people as long as Amazon can have it at their doorstep in 2 days they don’t care where it is made.

Personally, for most items quality is the number one factor in making a purchase.

[eugene thomas]

My sujgestion is anyone who wants to defend the chines leaders in their actions. Move their.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I think there may be a level of avoidance for a little while, in some quarters. But as someone said earlier, availability and cost are big drivers for consumers. Few people are willing to wait long for an item, or to pay significantly more for it.

I'm not angry at china. I absolutely think they should have tried to help everyone else, much sooner. But until/unless it is no-kidding confirmed that this escaped from a weapons lab (etc), Im assuming Wuhan was just the unlucky place it started. (Food for thought - if nature starts the next pandemic in Milwaukee, should everyone boycott American products? Might depend on the circumstances.)

Fred

I am not hearing a lot of folks who want to avoid Chinese products because of the anger referenced above. I am seeing a fair number of people who want to avoid foreign products in general because they think our county has become too dependent on foreign supply chains, and they would rather send their business to someone who will be on this side of the ocean (whichever ocean you happen to be looking at) when another crisis hits.

Product availability, price, quality, are all still real factors, but my sense is there is an opening for someone who wants to make something in America to start doing it again.

[Frederick Skelly]

I am not hearing a lot of folks who want to avoid Chinese products because of the anger referenced above. I am seeing a fair number of people who want to avoid foreign products in general because they think our county has become too dependent on foreign supply chains, and they would rather send their business to someone who will be on this side of the ocean (whichever ocean you happen to be looking at) when another crisis hits.

Product availability, price, quality, are all still real factors, but my sense is there is an opening for someone who wants to make something in America to start doing it again.

My heart is with you. My head says we arent stuffing the "foreign products" genie back in the bottle again. Even after this hard lesson. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Rod Sheridan]

I’m all for buying locally made products, the only issue is that they may be lower quality, and/or more expensive.

We all remember the American automobile of the 1970’s, pure garbage.

What caused American manufacturers to improve their product? Foreign made automobiles of better quality and greater fuel economy.

Isolation leads to stagnation.

A couple of years ago I spent considerable time looking for a North American made dustpan. I can’t remember if it was American or Canadian, however it was almost $30. It’s a great dustpan, and will last my lifetime.

That’s the issue, 10 years ago when my mother died I cleaned out her house, in it was a GE chromed kettle given to her as a wedding present before my father went to war.

At first I was thinking “what kind of a cheap character gives a kettle as a wedding present?”. Then I realized that with rationing and the economy in 39 that it would have represented perhaps several days of income. Today we can purchase several kettles with one hour of income.

That’s the thing, everything in my mother’s house was of very high quality and there were few items. Furniture, clothing, one TV, one radio.

We buy truckloads of stuff and send it to the landfill at the same rate.

I don’t see any appetite by Americans or Canadians to save for 3 or 4 years to buy a TV.

So no, we won’t be buying made in NA items exclusively, nor should we as it will damage our countries.

[Kev Williams]

Over the years, within the tiny circle of people I've done business with in one way or another, I've know several of them to buy a product someone just got the bugs out of and put on the market, take that product to China to be reverse engineered, have a few hundred made at 1/20th cost of the original, then sell them here at 20% the price of the original. Some will even label their new products as 'made in USA'. We hear a lot of 'China steals our ideas' rhetoric lately. Based on my experiences it seems they have plenty of ideas freely given to them by U.S. grown lazyazz scam artists. And I've found 'Made in USA' doesn't necessarily mean 'building things to last'. On the contrary, I've had more than one [business] tell me they MUST build things to eventually break or wear out or there's no money in it. And who better than China to manufacture parts that will probably survive a 1-year warranty, cheaply enough to replace those that don't and still leave you in the black?

No one's innocent ;)

[Brian Holcombe]

I am in firm belief that buying less stuff and of higher quality is actually better path to thrift than buying cheap and replacing. I’m biased in that I simply greatly dislike poorly made things and so I never buy them. I’d rather suffer without. Origin is less important to me, so long as I can see clearly that considerable efforts were made to design a high quality product and maintain that through the manufacturing process.

[Edwin Santos]

I am in firm belief that buying less stuff and of higher quality is actually better path to thrift than buying cheap and replacing.

Quite apart from the thrift, it's more enjoyable and satisfying too. I'm with you on disliking cheaply made, low quality items. Some people find real joy in owning well made, well crafted things. The kind of products that someone really cared about when they made them. This can even apply to things used in everyday life like writing instruments, high quality kitchen knives, a high quality wristwatch, etc. Anything you might treasure, and appreciate every time you use it.

I too normally think of quality being wherever you find it. This said, I have noticed that some countries have the pursuit of high quality standards embedded into their culture. Both Japan and Germany come to mind in this regard. Not sure if the USA belongs in that category or not. Maybe half in and half out these days. Buyer beware.
Edwin

[Brian Holcombe]

It’s been my experience that small-med makers in the US can and do make exceptional products. They are usually pretty nimble and highly automated. In the machining world, Kurt and Orange vises come to mind, as example.

[Lee DeRaud]

Food for thought - if nature starts the next pandemic in Milwaukee, should everyone boycott American products?It's not like I really needed another reason not to buy a Harley. :)

[Lee DeRaud]

all cars are made all over. We currently have a Chrysler.A couple decades ago, I had a rather spirited conversation with my next-door neighbor (the sales manager for a Cadillac dealer*), who took issue with me buying a foreign car rather than American.

He was a bit at a loss when I pointed out that I had traded in an Oldsmobile assembled in Canada for an Acura assembled in Ohio.

(*I later learned that the owner of his Cadillac dealership also owned the Acura dealership. Go figure.)

[Dan Friedrichs]

At first I was thinking “what kind of a cheap character gives a kettle as a wedding present?”. Then I realized that with rationing and the economy in 39 that it would have represented perhaps several days of income. Today we can purchase several kettles with one hour of income.

That’s the thing, everything in my mother’s house was of very high quality and there were few items. Furniture, clothing, one TV, one radio.

We buy truckloads of stuff and send it to the landfill at the same rate.


Rod, while I agree with your overall sentiment, I think the thing that's missing is the notion of innovation.

I have a palm sander and cordless drill I bought ~15 years ago - Makita, good quality, still as functional today as they were when I bought them. But the sander is a pain to load because it has "levers" to attach the paper. The drill is heavy and not ergonomic. Neither perform fractionally as well as their modern equivalents (which, to boot, probably cost less in inflation adjusted dollars). I'm considering literally throwing them away. I'm conflicted by this, but can't see why. TVs, radios, even kettles improve, and ultimately, if the "old" ones were so great, people wouldn't be tossing them in favor of the new.

[Lee DeRaud]

TVs, radios, even kettles improve, and ultimately, if the "old" ones were so great, people wouldn't be tossing them in favor of the new.There is some difference to be noted between (1) voluntarily buying the new because it works better than the old, and (2) being forced to buy the new because the old no longer works at all.

[Rick Potter]

I think anti China sentiment will increase a bit, but many things will still be made there.

I also think more businesses will be coming home if the government gets tax situation straightened out.

Probably most important is that India and Indonesia are waiting in the wings for their turn to undercut China, and they haven't cheated, stolen intellectual property, or threatened this country the way China has. Yet.

Of course a reunified Korea will be a major player also.

[Kev Williams]

as to buying 'cheaply made': it depends-- A few months ago I bought a kitchen knife at the dollar store, a smaller version of a basic 'chef's knife'. The thing was extremely sharp and cuts wonderfully. The blade has scalloped sides so it's great to cut cheese with. I say "was" because it's finally starting to show some wear, but not much. It's been our go-to knife since I got it. Since I go to the dollar store once or twice a week I'll just buy another one soon and chuck the old one. I can buy a whole bunch of these for the price of one well-made one, and if I need to cut thru copper wires or paper zip ties, no big deal if I screw up the blade! :)

Another example, the 2 dirt cheap fiber lasers I bought from eBay. They cost about 8% of what a 'good' one runs, they paid for themselves within 2 weeks, and are still going strong 18 months later. In April a company that normally lasers their own parts called, their laser broke down. I asked about their laser, specifically what they paid for it. "I'm not sure, but it turns out they upgraded the control board and no longer make the original, and our current software isn't compatible with the new board, so we're looking at $22,000 to get it back in service!" Sheesh... I paid less than $3500 each for 'whole' machines...

Dixie Cups do serve a purpose ;)

[Jim Tobias]

I am not hearing a lot of folks who want to avoid Chinese products because of the anger referenced above. I am seeing a fair number of people who want to avoid foreign products in general because they think our county has become too dependent on foreign supply chains, and they would rather send their business to someone who will be on this side of the ocean (whichever ocean you happen to be looking at) when another crisis hits.

Product availability, price, quality, are all still real factors, but my sense is there is an opening for someone who wants to make something in America to start doing it again.

Agreed...….this has been a wake up call about numerous things but especially about medicinal/PPE supply chains. I don't think we want to ever be left in a spot of depending on any neighbor(far and wide) that much.
Non life threatening goods are and will be driven by quality and cost......and as before, some choose to value one over the other.

Jim

[Scott T Smith]

For the past ten years or more my preference has been to buy US MFG first, neighbors (Canada and Mexico) second, US Allies third, and Chinese last. I’d rather support our friends, allies and neighbors with my purchases whenever possible. After all, they have our back, so why shouldn’t I have their back?

I have nothing against the Chinese. Their slow advances towards capitalism is one of the great stories of the last part of the 20th century. Having strong trade with them is in our benefit, as close and major trading partners typically do not go to war against one another.

Having said all that, I still prefer to support neighbors, friends and allies first.

[Curt Harms]

I am in firm belief that buying less stuff and of higher quality is actually better path to thrift than buying cheap and replacing. I’m biased in that I simply greatly dislike poorly made things and so I never buy them. I’d rather suffer without. Origin is less important to me, so long as I can see clearly that considerable efforts were made to design a high quality product and maintain that through the manufacturing process.

Some items I agree, machines being one. Machines and hand tools don't become functionally obsolete in a relatively short time. Other things become outdated long before they wear out. A high quality 10 year old cell phone may still work perfectly (assuming it'll connect to a network) but it'll hardly be the functional equivalent of even a low end cell phone produced today.

[Rod Sheridan]

I think we’re in agreement Dan, I’m opposed to low quality objects that require frequent replacement as Lee mentioned.

I don’t mind replacing something that doesn’t have the functionality, as you mentioned. Especially as we get older, that paper mounting mechanism may no longer be usable.

Regards, Rod.

[Brian Elfert]

as to buying 'cheaply made': it depends-- A few months ago I bought a kitchen knife at the dollar store, a smaller version of a basic 'chef's knife'. The thing was extremely sharp and cuts wonderfully. The blade has scalloped sides so it's great to cut cheese with. I say "was" because it's finally starting to show some wear, but not much. It's been our go-to knife since I got it. Since I go to the dollar store once or twice a week I'll just buy another one soon and chuck the old one. I can buy a whole bunch of these for the price of one well-made one, and if I need to cut thru copper wires or paper zip ties, no big deal if I screw up the blade! :)


This is a prime example of consumer mentality today. Buy the cheapest item no matter where made and just throw it away when it breaks in a short period. I don't like filling up landfills with poorly made goods so I tend to buy stuff to last.

Plenty of people buy Ikea furniture because it is cheap and they figure tastes will change by the time it needs replacement in five years or whatever. I still have almost all of the original furniture I bought when I got my first house. My bedroom furniture is solid wood and the style is pretty timeless. My recliner had to be replaced after 20 years as it was falling apart. I don't think my new recliner will last that long.

[Stan Calow]

Most people aren't in a business and can't make value judgments about quality products versus cheap products. Its a choice of having a tool or not. The only way you can keep critical industries in the US in a globally competitive environment is through taxpayer subsidies, or massive tariffs. The last time (last year) we tried tariffs to punish China, the backlash against our farmers points out why that works both ways.

[Andrew Joiner]

I try to buy the best product at a fair price. In tests country of origin can be surprising or disappointing.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?200911-Scissors-Test-Review

[Mark Rainey]

Good wisdom Mark. International capitalism rules. Governments are close to helpless. Years ago, a college professor referred to the phenomenon as free market fundamentalism.

[Rod Sheridan]

Most people aren't in a business and can't make value judgments about quality products versus cheap products. Its a choice of having a tool or not. The only way you can keep critical industries in the US in a globally competitive environment is through taxpayer subsidies, or massive tariffs. The last time (last year) we tried tariffs to punish China, the backlash against our farmers points out why that works both ways.

The issue with tariffs is that they are paid by the importer, so for example the tariffs on Chinese items imported into the USA are paid by American consumers.

They are punitive, in that they are designed to make you buy the non imported item by making the imported item more expensive. I'm ambivalent about tariffs as they make objects more expensive and sometimes lower income people suffer due to the higher prices.

I wonder if an education program would work to convince people to pay more to keep their neighbours employed?

Regards, Rod.

[Brian Holcombe]

Some items I agree, machines being one. Machines and hand tools don't become functionally obsolete in a relatively short time. Other things become outdated long before they wear out. A high quality 10 year old cell phone may still work perfectly (assuming it'll connect to a network) but it'll hardly be the functional equivalent of even a low end cell phone produced today.

That’s certainly true in many cases, my spending on electronics over a 10 year period is exceptionally low, so I don’t weight them in very high. That said i generally buy quality and use them longer than the company selling them to me would prefer.

Most of the things I like are already old and outdated.

[Jim Becker]

Plenty of people buy Ikea furniture because it is cheap and they figure tastes will change by the time it needs replacement in five years or whatever. I still have almost all of the original furniture I bought when I got my first house. My bedroom furniture is solid wood and the style is pretty timeless. My recliner had to be replaced after 20 years as it was falling apart. I don't think my new recliner will last that long.

Interestingly, I have a good amount of Ikea furniture from the 1980s that was bought from the very first Ikea store in the country. That includes two leather love seats and a matching chair. They were not cheap, either... ;) That said, you are correct that many folks don't consider what they are getting for their lower price point choices and it's telling on trash day all the time.

[Stan Calow]

I wonder if an education program would work to convince people to pay more to keep their neighbours employed?

I remember such a campaign in the late '60s early '70s to support US textile workers - "look for the union label" was the tag line for ubiquitous commercials on TV. People pretty much dismissed the commercials as a joke, as high-wage unions became a target. People voted in their own self-interest with their dollars.

[Paul Haus]

Lot of opinions here. Personally I prefer to buy things 'Made in the USA', but so many things are no longer made here. Most if not all the major US auto manufacturers use parts from China in producing current vehicles. Happens I'm restoring an older car and so many of the electrical and mechanical parts are no longer available except for items made in China. If you want or need a part then many times the only option is China or nothing. How long this trend will exist is anyone's guess, but I expect it won't end any time soon.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you want a made in USA car then buy a BMW, Mercedes or Japanese car, many are made in the US.

[John K Jordan]

If you want a made in USA car then buy a BMW, Mercedes or Japanese car, many are made in the US.

My brother retired from Honda in Ohio. I bought a Honda Accord made there.

JKJ

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Back in the late 1960's, It became known that the only place in the world that large bearings for hydroelecric turbines were made in Czechoslovakia. The Russians could have held our entire electrical grid hostage, but didn't. zI am amazed at what is made where. My wife's car complete with 3 cylinder engine was made in Thailand. One of the most trouble free cars we ever owned. When I was in college, I bought an Italian motorcycle. Every body was buying Japanese, or English, a few German. My dad said the thing would never last. It is now 52 years old, still runs and is part of a rich guy's collection down in Richmond VA. Chinese stuff is like stuff from everywhere. Some the worst quality imaginable and some pretty darn good. For one of the turnings, I sell, I need a small eyelet attached to the piece. I order them direct from china. Last order was 300 eyelets for $1.27, including shipping. Never had one break or twist off.

[John K Jordan]

...Chinese stuff is like stuff from everywhere. Some the worst quality imaginable and some pretty darn good. ...

And I understand some of both come from the same factories. The Little Machine Shop sells versions of small milling machines and metal lathes that are made in the same factories as the cheap versions that others sell. They told me they pay more for better tolerances and fit/finish. I can believe it. The lathe I got from them appears identical on the outside to one a friend bought. He had to disassemble his completely and rework and clean up internal things like gears, bushings, etc. He looked over mine and couldn't believe how much different it looked outside and and how smoothly things worked. Mine was more expensive, though! Yikes, getting what you pay for, what a concept.

[Rollie Meyers]

I always look for the COO, Country Of Origin on a package & always look for something else when it says "China" on it, sometimes it's impossible to avoid China products, but I try, if it is food it goes back though their food safety standards are somewhere between slim to none, & canned mushrooms, Mandarin oranges, frozen broccoli, cauliflower, are all items I have seen sourced from there. Even have seen China TP with a Prop 65 cancer warning on it. :D

[Brian Elfert]

I always look for the COO, Country Of Origin on a package & always look for something else when it says "China" on it, sometimes it's impossible to avoid ChiCom products, but I try, if it is food it goes back though their food safety standards are somewhere between slim to none, & canned mushrooms, Mandarin oranges, frozen broccoli, cauliflower, are all items I have seen sourced from there. Even have seen ChiCom TP with a Prop 65 cancer warning on it. :D

What the heck would be in TP that requires a Prop 65 warning? My made in the USA TP has no such warning.

I buy a pack or two of RV TP every year. Walmart carries three different brands of RV TP. Two are made in China and one is USA. I always get the Scotts brand which is made in the USA. Buying TP from China seems stupid.

[Lee DeRaud]

What the heck would be in TP that requires a Prop 65 warning? My made in the USA TP has no such warning.A quick google of "toilet paper prop 65" coughed up a mention of PCBs in a lavender-scent version of Angel Soft (USA-made BTW) toilet paper. Possibly it's something in the scent chemicals, but given the truly stunning amounts of toxic stuff involved in paper production, I'm not really surprised.

Note that the Prop 65 complaint I found wasn't because the TP contained trace amounts of PCBs, but because it was lacking the required warning label. But it was dated 2018, shortly before the Prop 65 agency started transitioning away from its prior "no safe exposure level" policy. (Remember the Starbuck coffee Prop 65 brouhaha?) It could well be that the Chinese stuff Rollie mentioned was from before that or the manufacturer hadn't bother to update the packaging.

[Brandon Speaks]

I am certainly not self imposing a rule to not buy made in China over this virus, or at all really.

That said one interesting lesson here and more interesting that the virus place of origin is just how debilitated our supply chain is without China. Imagine for a minute a world war scenario. Battles didnt win WW2 as much as our manufacturing capability being the best in the world did. Now we have very little manufacturing and the countries that do are ones that as to my best guess might not be on our side if something went wrong. I think a move to bring some level of production capability back to the US makes sense and this situation just highlighted the potential vulnerability.

How will this influence my purchasing decisions? I dont know yet. I certainly will not rule out purchase of a Chinese made product if its the best option (and really this is not about China but really anywhere but US and maybe Canada), but I am also getting a little less sensitive to price differences. This may also be influenced by as I have had some time at home and cleaning out junk I am realizing how much disposable junk I have that I dont need and am tossing. Less possessions of higher quality is the direction I feel I am headed overall (there are of course exceptions) which also tends to fit with investing more in USA made products.

To the OPs question, I dont see major changes to my overall purchasing decisions based on country of origin (and nothing singling out China in particular). However, I do support an increase in the US manufacturing base and given similar product at a slightly higher price made here I would be more likely to choose made in USA than I would have before, also given a higher quality made in USA product costing more than a lower quality Chinese product (and I am well aware that USA can make poor quality and China can make high quality, but just in the scenario mentioned) I am more likely to invest in the USA product than I was before. I would be surprised if any shift accounted for more than 2-3% of my annual spending though.

[Edwin Santos]

In light of this discussion, I find myself wondering if people in other countries have similar conversations over the reluctance to buy products from the USA for political or quality perception reasons.

Or is it a uniquely American attitude?

[Jim Becker]

Prop-65 warning may also get triggered by packaging.

[Warren Lake]

its been around forever in different ways. I can think of friends who said no their parents wont buy a german car.

[Edwin Santos]

its been around forever in different ways. I can think of friends who said no their parents wont buy a german car.

This reminds me of my friend Steve who was an event photographer in the 80s. He got hired to shoot a Bat Mitzvah, and the day before the event, the client called him and stipulated that he was not allowed to use a German camera because if the Grandma saw it, she'd come unglued.
He was a bit heartbroken to have to leave his favorite Rollei twin lens reflex at home, but luckily he also owned a Nikon which saved the day.
The rest of us tried to persuade him to load it with Agfa film, but he didn't want to live dangerously.
Good times.

[Brian Holcombe]

That sentiment still oddly common, I think it is often to avoid dishonoring those who served or those affected by a terrible regime. I don't know people in the latter group, but I know a few who have served. I greatly admire those who’ve served but have also taken notice that many of them do not hold those same resentments toward former enemies. Also, given that we've put so much effort into rebuilding those former enemies into allies it seems reasonable to patronize them. I certainly don't mean to speak for veterans, but this has been a phenomenon I have witnessed.

My grandfather, as example, who fought from D-Day +3 and with the 86th Airborne until VE Day (and finished his duty in the Phillipines) found an enjoyment in restoring Volkswagen cars. My grandfather in his division helped to liberate Attendorn labor camp.

I also recall having watched a program about a D-day veteran who became pen-pals, and finally good friends in real life, with a German machine gunner who manned a pillbox on Omaha beach. Couldn't find the GI's name in a quick search but I found the Wehrmacht soldier. Anywho, if those two can become friends, anyone can let past grievances go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Severloh

[Curtis Kimble]

I'm all for made in (Insert your own country you currently live in)...USA for me. But, if I have to choose a more inexpensive version due to my project requirements at the time, I don't mind buying from other countries and China wouldn't be different to me whether it's Cambodia, Taiwan or Japan. It's all the same to me and they all have the same horrible guidelines when it comes to how they treat their workers.

What are we going to do when we have to buy a phone, computer, tablet? Heck, a CNC machine? It very well is going to come from overseas and most of the time, China.

[Mark Bolton]

In light of this discussion, I find myself wondering if people in other countries have similar conversations over the reluctance to buy products from the USA for political or quality perception reasons.

Or is it a uniquely American attitude?

I think if you were able to widely poll the global population you would find a massive amount of individuals who despise the USA for a multitude of reasons. Some for good reason, some because of propaganda, some due to political, social, economic, and military, issues.

A close friend once spend some time interning in college in Australia, and he commented endlessly about going out to a bar on an evening and being repeatedly referred to as a "sepo". Someone from the US was referred to as coming from "the septic tank".

This is from an ally nation, a white nation. You do the math extrapolated out to those that are non-white, dont like us to begin with, we have exploited,... I'd guess your poll would have some weight on all sides.

Sadly as it pertains to this thread it doesnt really have anything to due with nation of origin. It has to do with what the corporations and marketing profiteers specify the country of origin to make and they, for the sake of money, allow themselves to be sold down the river with a perceived reputation.

[Mel Fulks]

To some people the USA is a lot like Tom Brady ; we are too talented and win too much. My question to the Aussie who
does not like us is : When do the natives get some beach property?

[Edwin Santos]

I think if you were able to widely poll the global population you would find a massive amount of individuals who despise the USA for a multitude of reasons. Some for good reason, some because of propaganda, some due to political, social, economic, and military, issues.


Well it's far from a wide poll, but since posting my question, I have been casually asking about other countries' perceptions, and a friend who does a fair amount of business in China told me an interesting story. It's well known that the middle class in China is exploding, and apparently American products are held in high regard. As an example it holds huge bragging rights for people with young families to buy items such as baby formula, diapers, strollers other such products from Costco because of the prestige associated with American brands. And of course these people make sure all their friends know that they are buying these products.
Having a Tesla is a major status symbol in China because they see it as an iconic American brand. Maybe even more so than we do here in the US.

[Jerry Bruette]

In light of this discussion, I find myself wondering if people in other countries have similar conversations over the reluctance to buy products from the USA for political or quality perception reasons.

Or is it a uniquely American attitude?

When I was in the Navy and on deployments in the Mediterranean I would enjoy buying newspapers from various countries that were printed in English just to see what they had to say about us. Not all of it was good.

[Jim Becker]

Having a Tesla is a major status symbol in China because they see it as an iconic American brand. Maybe even more so than we do here in the US.

The same with Buick...probably the only reason the brand still exists in GM is the huge Chinese market for the brand.

[Frederick Skelly]

When I was in the Navy and on deployments in the Mediterranean I would enjoy buying newspapers from various countries that were printed in English just to see what they had to say about us. Not all of it was good.

Fair enough. Not everything I say about france is good either. And if I can talk trash, why can't they? At the end of the day, we often demonstrate why this is a great country. Plenty of faults. But plenty of heart. Gordon Sinclair said it very well. Go listen again, if it's been a while. LINK (https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/gordonsinclairtheamericans.htm)

[Rod Sheridan]

In light of this discussion, I find myself wondering if people in other countries have similar conversations over the reluctance to buy products from the USA for political or quality perception reasons.

Or is it a uniquely American attitude?

Yes we do....Rod

[Stewie Simpson]

I think if you were able to widely poll the global population you would find a massive amount of individuals who despise the USA for a multitude of reasons. Some for good reason, some because of propaganda, some due to political, social, economic, and military, issues.

A close friend once spend some time interning in college in Australia, and he commented endlessly about going out to a bar on an evening and being repeatedly referred to as a "sepo". Someone from the US was referred to as coming from "the septic tank".

This is from an ally nation, a white nation. You do the math extrapolated out to those that are non-white, dont like us to begin with, we have exploited,... I'd guess your poll would have some weight on all sides.

Sadly as it pertains to this thread it doesnt really have anything to due with nation of origin. It has to do with what the corporations and marketing profiteers specify the country of origin to make and they, for the sake of money, allow themselves to be sold down the river with a perceived reputation.

What Americans Really Think of Australia :D


Health care: While Australians may have a moan about the national health care system, to Americans it is nothing short of an incredible gift. In America, medical expenses are a leading cause of bankruptcy, and drug companies dominate politics and advertising. They also admire Australia’s policies to keep cigarette smoking less accessible.


Free-to-air TV: Watching TV in Australia is as simple as buying a television and plugging it in. Straight away you are met with a variety of channels, all without paying another cent. In America, you can’t get any channels without paying fees to a cable or satellite company. And when you do, you are given so many channels it’s completely overwhelming to a lot of people.


Food: Australia is a country full of culturally diverse cuisine, and the majority of our chefs take pride in using only the freshest ingredients. Supermarkets are doing great at promoting healthy foods over pre-packaged salt-ridden goods, and the coffee is just as good as in countries such as Paris and Italy.


Boutique shops: Boutique shops are a thing of the past in America, especially in big towns and cities. Identical malls sell identical wares and serve identical foods from identically inferior cafes and restaurants. In Australia, all you have to do is walk along King St in Newtown, Sydney and you will be flooded with unique stores.


Roads: Roads in Australia are simple and generally traffic-free, as opposed to insanely knotted with looping overpasses and busy traffic made up of angry people running late.


Religion: While religion is very much a part of Australian life, it’s not thrown in your face like it is in America. The USA creates big public shows of devotion when it comes to religion, meaning there’s no escaping it.


Gun laws: While many American’s disagree with our gun laws, for those few Americans that don’t carry guns they love the Australian views on gun ownership. They also respect John Howard for responding to the Port Arthur massacre with definitive actions, instead of just talking about change.


Accent and language: Americans love the Aussie accent, the rhyming slang, and the Aboriginal place names that sound like they come straight out of a magic book. (Think Attunga, Caboolture, Goondiwindi and Dumbleyung.) They also love the relaxed approach to the English language, and the way we turn words such as Mcdonalds into “Maccas” and Salvation Army into “Salvos”.


Nature: From rugged wilderness to outback plains, tropical rainforest to white sand beaches, it’s all here in Australia. No matter what kind of experience you are after, you can find it. Skiing, city shopping, bushwalking, scuba diving, white water rafting and mountain climbing … you name it, Australia’s got it.

Thongs: For an American that loves an immature giggle, they love the opportunity of a snigger every time they see a person wearing ‘flip-flops’.


Wildlife: Ok so not all of our native wildlife is wonderful (think snakes, spiders and crocs), but for all the bad animals there are hundreds of cute and cuddly creatures, such as koalas and wombats. The kangaroos are pretty cool too, and unlike any other creature on earth.


The people: Aussies are super friendly, down-to-earth and never in a rush. They’re relaxed about everything and take mishaps in their stride.

[Ron Citerone]

What Americans Really Think of Australia :D


Health care: While Australians may have a moan about the national health care system, to Americans it is nothing short of an incredible gift. In America, medical expenses are a leading cause of bankruptcy, and drug companies dominate politics and advertising. They also admire Australia’s policies to keep cigarette smoking less accessible.


Free-to-air TV: Watching TV in Australia is as simple as buying a television and plugging it in. Straight away you are met with a variety of channels, all without paying another cent. In America, you can’t get any channels without paying fees to a cable or satellite company. And when you do, you are given so many channels it’s completely overwhelming to a lot of people.


Food: Australia is a country full of culturally diverse cuisine, and the majority of our chefs take pride in using only the freshest ingredients. Supermarkets are doing great at promoting healthy foods over pre-packaged salt-ridden goods, and the coffee is just as good as in countries such as Paris and Italy.


Boutique shops: Boutique shops are a thing of the past in America, especially in big towns and cities. Identical malls sell identical wares and serve identical foods from identically inferior cafes and restaurants. In Australia, all you have to do is walk along King St in Newtown, Sydney and you will be flooded with unique stores.


Roads: Roads in Australia are simple and generally traffic-free, as opposed to insanely knotted with looping overpasses and busy traffic made up of angry people running late.


Religion: While religion is very much a part of Australian life, it’s not thrown in your face like it is in America. The USA creates big public shows of devotion when it comes to religion, meaning there’s no escaping it.


Gun laws: While many American’s disagree with our gun laws, for those few Americans that don’t carry guns they love the Australian views on gun ownership. They also respect John Howard for responding to the Port Arthur massacre with definitive actions, instead of just talking about change.


Accent and language: Americans love the Aussie accent, the rhyming slang, and the Aboriginal place names that sound like they come straight out of a magic book. (Think Attunga, Caboolture, Goondiwindi and Dumbleyung.) They also love the relaxed approach to the English language, and the way we turn words such as Mcdonalds into “Maccas” and Salvation Army into “Salvos”.


Nature: From rugged wilderness to outback plains, tropical rainforest to white sand beaches, it’s all here in Australia. No matter what kind of experience you are after, you can find it. Skiing, city shopping, bushwalking, scuba diving, white water rafting and mountain climbing … you name it, Australia’s got it.

Thongs: For an American that loves an immature giggle, they love the opportunity of a snigger every time they see a person wearing ‘flip-flops’.


Wildlife: Ok so not all of our native wildlife is wonderful (think snakes, spiders and crocs), but for all the bad animals there are hundreds of cute and cuddly creatures, such as koalas and wombats. The kangaroos are pretty cool too, and unlike any other creature on earth.


The people: Aussies are super friendly, down-to-earth and never in a rush. They’re relaxed about everything and take mishaps in their stride.

Sounds awesome!

[Mark Bolton]

Well it's far from a wide poll, but since posting my question, I have been casually asking about other countries' perceptions, and a friend who does a fair amount of business in China told me an interesting story. It's well known that the middle class in China is exploding, and apparently American products are held in high regard. As an example it holds huge bragging rights for people with young families to buy items such as baby formula, diapers, strollers other such products from Costco because of the prestige associated with American brands. And of course these people make sure all their friends know that they are buying these products.
Having a Tesla is a major status symbol in China because they see it as an iconic American brand. Maybe even more so than we do here in the US.
Yeah.. and there is also a cultural movement afoot in China that having an obese child is a symbol of affluence (because you have the ability to over feed your child). Then add in the instant Walmart Walmart hormone laden food landed in their culture breast started to grow (dairy hormones produce larger udders) as well as cancers.

Dont know what the point is other than watch what you wish for.

[Patrick Walsh]

You must also be a fan of the China study. Man the amount of I have caught off defending the concepts in that book.

Imop most Americans “not the poor” without choice are dying of nobody’s fault but their own. Makes me so mad when you factor in health care costs vrs those whom actually care for their health.

Seems to me health coverage should be pro rated based on your life choices that affect your health. I know I know you can’t do that but but the subject sure does wreck my head. Go ahead just keep feeding those kids milk and stuffing em full of cheese.


Yeah.. and there is also a cultural movement afoot in China that having an obese child is a symbol of affluence (because you have the ability to over feed your child). Then add in the instant Walmart Walmart hormone laden food landed in their culture breast started to grow (dairy hormones produce larger udders) as well as cancers.

Dont know what the point is other than watch what you wish for.

[Jerry Bruette]

Fair enough. Not everything I say about france is good either. And if I can talk trash, why can't they? At the end of the day, we often demonstrate why this is a great country. Plenty of faults. But plenty of heart. Gordon Sinclair said it very well. Go listen again, if it's been a while. LINK (https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/gordonsinclairtheamericans.htm)

Wasn't defending them. Maybe "enjoy" was the wrong word. Found it interesting and awakening. Being a ripe old nineteen years old from a small town seeing the world for the first time it hadn't occurred to me that other countries may not like or appreciate us.

Didn't take long to figure out that the only reason the locals looked forward to a ship pulling into port was for the money that was being spent on various goods.

[Frederick Skelly]

Wasn't defending them. Maybe "enjoy" was the wrong word. Found it interesting and awakening. Being a ripe old nineteen years old from a small town seeing the world for the first time it hadn't occurred to me that other countries may not like or appreciate us.

Didn't take long to figure out that the only reason the locals looked forward to a ship pulling into port was for the money that was being spent on various goods.

Hi Jerry, I figured you meant it much like you described. I was really "speaking" to everyone generally and didn't mean anything negative in my response to your post. I apologize if it came off that way Sir.

Have a good one.
Fred

[Keith Outten]

I think that everyone should be proud of their native country, their customs and accomplishments. Making comparisons between cultures is rarely accurate or productive.

The United States of America is a very young country but we have made contributions in technology, medical advancement, engineering and a host of other fields that the entire world has benefited from. The Brits think we brag to much and its absolutely true. We have earned the right to take our place in this world as a nation that is built on the love of freedom and we promote and reward personal innovation and accomplishment. Our track record in the last two centuries helping other nations is beyond criticism, we have been there though thick and thin for our allies and most other countries as well and best of all we have never been a nation that believes in conquering our enemies.

We have made mistakes but for the most part we have corrected ourselves and we continue to adjust. Our government is far from perfect but our people are proud and hard working and we will always be proud of our way of life. We argue among ourselves more so than with any other nation but we continue to move forward. Even though we fuss and fight with each other we can unite every soul in our country when the need arises. There are people all over the world that will tell you that the greatest sight they have even seen is our flag in the streets of their country.

Uncle Sam does have a sense of humor though, he loves to laugh and enjoy life.

Spend your money where it suits you but don't forget that your countrymen need jobs and the loss of manufacturing capability in America is taking its toll on our way of life.

[Jim Tobias]

Well said Keith......too many of us who enjoy the freedoms this country provides, look for any and every opportunity to criticize it. It isn't perfect. BUT.....it is easily at the top of the list. No need to apologize for that. Be proud of it.

Jim

[Glen Hollowood]

Back in the late 1960's, It became known that the only place in the world that large bearings for hydroelecric turbines were made in Czechoslovakia. The Russians could have held our entire electrical grid hostage, but didn't. zI am amazed at what is made where.

Bear in mind, Czechoslovakia was so in step with the USSR that it was invaded in '68. That said, there could have been a political/economic motivation in permitting sales instead. We'd shown with the Heavy Press Program (not to mention the space race) that we could achieve our engineering goals if we needed to. I could see the USSR deciding that blocking sales would mean we'd just develop them ourselves, which would cost them hard currency.

[Mark Bolton]

We have made mistakes but for the most part we have corrected ourselves and we continue to adjust

I completely agree with your post and I dont take any pleasure in the areas I am unhappy with the US but the statement above speaks directly to my point. WE (the USA) learned that poisoning our water, pretty much, for the most part, kinda sorta, is not smart. WE (the USA) learned that company stores and company housing and kinda, sorta, enslaving, your workforce, isnt really the greatest thing. We learned that when you force your workforce into foolish workplace hazards you wind up with the misery of OSHA. Greed created OSHA. We learned that when you know that disposing of some nasty juju that is a byproduct of your production is expensive so you opt to dig a hole and bury it poisoning your local community that its pretty much a back-fire and now your greed created the EPA. The list goes on an on. And I agree that we (kinda) learned and (kinda) adjusted...

But now... with all that learning, and all that adjusting, we have US corporations creating, advocating, advising, all with legal teams of course making sure there is enough prosecutorial distance to not be able to bridge the gap of culpability, that are not only flushing their manufacturing nations down the toilet but they are flushing their own country and planet down the toilet. Wanna talk about treason? And pride in your "native country"?

It simply doesnt add up. We knew better when we buried the stuff in the ground the first time (its why we buried it). We knew better when we created unsafe work place. And now we are "suffering" with the regulatory agencies that were created by that foolishness, and whats the answer? Go do it to another country/nation/population... AND low and behold realize that now we are on such a small marble that we have shot our self in the foot AGAIN... lol....

It makey-no-sensey... :D

[Edwin Santos]

We have made mistakes but for the most part we have corrected ourselves and we continue to adjust.




I completely agree with your post and I dont take any pleasure in the areas I am unhappy with the US but the statement above speaks directly to my point. WE (the USA) learned that poisoning our water, pretty much, for the most part, kinda sorta, is not smart. WE (the USA) learned that company stores and company housing and kinda, sorta, enslaving, your workforce, isnt really the greatest thing. We learned that when you force your workforce into foolish workplace hazards you wind up with the misery of OSHA. Greed created OSHA. We learned that when you know that disposing of some nasty juju that is a byproduct of your production is expensive so you opt to dig a hole and bury it poisoning your local community that its pretty much a back-fire and now your greed created the EPA. The list goes on an on. And I agree that we (kinda) learned and (kinda) adjusted...


Heh, both your comments echo Winston Churchill's quote: "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

I also love "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"

That man had a way with words.

[Mel Fulks]

Some of the things Mark has listed are "in the eye of the beholder". Try telling the coal miners they need to get another
job. They ain't interested. They love their work as much as heart surgeons love theirs. The earth is getting cleaner
not dirtier. Many of us remember visiting friends and family who used "out houses". I remember when rain coats came
with removable plastic covers. They were for black rain ,not jelly donuts.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Some of the things Mark has listed are "in the eye of the beholder". ...

Easy now. You’ll give people false hope. And ALL hope is lost!!!

I work for BIG (insert ‘EVIL’ of preference), and our 5 yr plan is to utterly destroy the entire planet and kill our customers. Seems workable to me, the Board of Directors agrees, and best of all the stockholders know nothing!

;)

[Mel Fulks]

Malcolm, thanks for the stock tip ! You are wise to keep your plans out of the papers ,you don't need any competition.

[Mark Bolton]

Some of the things Mark has listed are "in the eye of the beholder". Try telling the coal miners they need to get another
job. They ain't interested. They love their work as much as heart surgeons love theirs. The earth is getting cleaner
not dirtier. Many of us remember visiting friends and family who used "out houses". I remember when rain coats came
with removable plastic covers. They were for black rain ,not jelly donuts.

Dunno, seems like a bit of a convenient recollection/interpretation on your part. I'm sure many were happy to have work and food of any kind but I think the accurate account is that very few appreciated receiving their chit slips at payday and the deductions for housing, food, and so on, that "conveniently" left them with zero to ever better themselves while big daddy was getting richer and richer. You may recall something called the mine wars and then of course the dreaded union.

To in anyway think the majority were happy with the situation in those times is a god awful stretch.

Extrapolate that out to today where those communities have been so decimated that what is now a very good paying job in a place that's basically a million miles from any job that will pay half as much or less? And hell yeah your going to have people rallying in favor of that cash. But those pay scales are not in place because big daddy suddenly felt like giving back to the workers. They are there through laws and fight that had to be waged because they were too greedy to do the right thing to begin with.

[Mel Fulks]

I think "too greedy to do the right thing" is a perfectly legal and kind observation. But most are happy with their
unions and not dependent on good will. They see today's work situations as great improvements.

[Brian Holcombe]

The last time I was an employee I wasn’t too impressed with the benefits so I decided that I would just open an IRA and make my own retirement. It automatically transfers money every month, so I don’t have the chance to consider spending that on something else. I have tried to max it out every year. We do the same with insurance now, bought our own through a broker.

I have little faith in social safety nets, given that they seem to be perpetually on the brink of failure and generally require one to plead their case and be left in the hands of someone deciding wether or not they should be helped. Personally I would rather plan for my own future and hopefully those things will add to it, rather than rely on them and wind up far worse off.

[Mark Bolton]

I think "too greedy to do the right thing" is a perfectly legal and kind observation. But most are happy with their
unions and not dependent on good will. They see today's work situations as great improvements.

We are on the same page there as I said. The wages in themselves today, in the areas Ive been speaking to, are very hard for the locals to walk away from. Then you add in the family history and tradition of it all and it gets even deeper. But again, those wages exist only because of very painful fights that had to be fought to gain "reasonable" compensation for the work in lieu of the massive profits and personal wealth gained by a few. And the thumbing of noses at safety for the sake of profit still goes on and is well documented.

Said before, I in no way shape or form advocate for the government to determine what anyones salary should be, or what any CEO's compensation should be, or a cap on their maximum net worth. Lunacy. The market, society, and their workforce, should do that but in many many cases, right out to today, those market/societal/workforce motivators often times simply dont work out all that well for a bunch of reasons. And again to my point, a great example is Walmart and Apple. Walmart has consciously controlled its workforce and directly (though I am sure maintained enough legal distance) coached, directed, forced, is vendors down this very path in other countries with the top sitting pretty and the staff having a job but... Then you have the Apple/Foxcon "relationship" with a factory that was so wonderful to walk through the gates on your first day of employment (only to never be able to afford to leave due to your perpetual debt to the company store/housing) that employees began throwing themselves off the roof of the building. To the extent that Foxcon (soley producing for Apple) installed nets around the building in a program called "Nets of love".

It would be one thing if that were just happening as a natural progression of growth in another isolated country, they have to learn their own lessons. But its happening at the hands of a massive US corporation that at its peak was sitting on something like 800 billion dollars in cash reserve, and now the poor babies are down to a meager 200+ billion (likely because the 800 billion looked so bad on paper) and is holding the puppet strings on the whole thing while people are lining up willing fork over nearly $2k for their flagship new phone. Yet we need a prison factory? Again, no-makey-no-sensey

The days of the market and the consumer driving corporate conscience are gone unless they are burning fetus' to heat their offices or something. The bulk are just numb to it trying to make it through the next car/mortgage payment and have just given up and buy whatever is cheapest hence the stats that there will be more plastic in the ocean than fish in a generation or two.

[Frederick Skelly]

And again to my point, a great example is Walmart and Apple. Walmart has consciously controlled its workforce and directly (though I am sure maintained enough legal distance) coached, directed, forced, is vendors down this very path in other countries with the top sitting pretty and the staff having a job but... Then you have the Apple/Foxcon "relationship" with a factory that was so wonderful to walk through the gates on your first day of employment (only to never be able to afford to leave due to your perpetual debt to the company store/housing) that employees began throwing themselves off the roof of the building. To the extent that Foxcon (soley producing for Apple) installed nets around the building in a program called "Nets of love".

I agree there sure is a lot of greed. Go read about the people that brought down Enron or Worldcom. And they go to country club prisons when they are caught. Geez.

I've often wondered if many of us "feed" some of that greed, albeit indirectly and unintentionally. For example, say I have an IRA or 401k in the market. Well, Mutual Fund Managers get paid to produce returns on investment. From what I've seen, they can/do exert pressure on companies whose stock they hold to pay dividends. And to pay dividends, they need profits. So in a backhanded way, arent I a small-fry contributor to the problem?

[Brian Holcombe]

Public companies are owned by the shareholders, if you are owning mutual funds which own shares of those companies then you are an owner of that company.

I prefer direct ownership because I would prefer to exercise my voting rights as a shareholder rather than pay someone to do that for me.

Shareholders take the majority of the risk in a company and therefore reap the reward when the company performs well. The current trend if vilifying dividends and stock buy backs is being confused for something else entirely. A public company may return capital to investors via dividends or stock repurchases. This is entirely different than a company, usually privately held, taking on debt for the sole purpose of paying dividends to the leadership and bankrupting the company.

Companies will behave differently in the future becuase of this, likely they will increase the amount of cash on hand, public or private. Prior to this, however, analysts and shareholders would typically be Leary of a company with too much cash on the balance sheet as it implies that the company does not know what to do with the money.

One of the most helpful things in my life has been the understanding of economics. Having an understanding of corporate finance, investing and markets is helpful as a person in society. It helps to break one from the Good/evil narrative and recognize that most often people are simply driven by incentive weighted against risk. That is not to say that fraud and or short cited decision making doesn’t happen (it sure does and I think it terrible).

If I could snap my fingers and change one thing about society it would be to teach people economics at a very young age so that it was a part of ones understanding early. Instead we teach neither economics nor personal finance until college, baffling. Kids understand this stuff much better than people expect. College is late for this but I still felt that devoting my college experience to Econ/finance was one of the better decisions I’ve made. It broke me of a fear of financial markets.

[Edwin Santos]

The current trend if vilifying dividends and stock buy backs is being confused for something else entirely. A public company may return capital to investors via dividends or stock repurchases. This is entirely different than a company, usually privately held, taking on debt for the sole purpose of paying dividends to the leadership and bankrupting the company.

Companies will behave differently in the future becuase of this, likely they will increase the amount of cash on hand, public or private. Prior to this, however, analysts and shareholders would typically be Leary of a company with too much cash on the balance sheet as it implies that the company does not know what to do with the money.



There's more to it than that Brian. The ethical objection to publicly company stock buybacks in certain circumstances is when companies buy back their own stock using stimulus money or bailout money (such as TARP). The intention behind the government stimulus has been partly to ensure the health of a threatened company or industry that is influential on the economy. But the goal is also that the money the Feds are giving will get deployed in the form of capital that will benefit the broader economy such as creating jobs, building plants, warehouses, stores, offices. When that money simply goes into the coffers of the recipient and then is used for a dividend, executive bonuses, or a buyback, then it only benefits the limited universe of its management and stockholders, not the broader economy, and certainly not the little guy. In this scenario, the taxpayers have been gamed.

In other circumstances, when there is no stimulus or subsidy money involved, buying back stock that the company perceives as being undervalued is a perfectly legitimate thing to do because they are utilizing their own earned capital.

Hoarding cash in an age of zero or near zero interest rates will continue to be questionable, at least strategically, especially if a company has access to the debt (and equity) markets for financing purposes. In fact, zero interest rate policy is intended by design to punish cash hoarding, whether it be a large company or retired saver living on a fixed income. The Federal Reserve has created enormous disincentive for capital to be stockpiled in savings and instead be deployed into the markets and economy instead. And there you have the engine that has been driving the escalation in appreciating asset values and wealth (at least for a certain segment) over the past 25 years or so.

I couldn't agree with you more wholeheartedly about the importance of a basic understanding of economics and personal finance at an young age.
On a somewhat related note, I've often thought a basic knowledge of nutrition and preventive health at an early age would go a long way toward improving our health care situation.

[Malcolm McLeod]

The last time I was an employee I wasn’t too impressed with the benefits so I decided that I would just open an IRA and make my own retirement. It automatically transfers money every month, so I don’t have the chance to consider spending that on something else. I have tried to max it out every year. We do the same with insurance now, bought our own through a broker.

I have little faith in social safety nets, given that they seem to be perpetually on the brink of failure and generally require one to plead their case and be left in the hands of someone deciding wether or not they should be helped. Personally I would rather plan for my own future and hopefully those things will add to it, rather than rely on them and wind up far worse off.

Drifting from OP topic, but your plan seems wise, responsible, and reeks of self-sufficiency. Hmmm.... could we be from the same far-away planet?? :confused::eek::confused:

I pay SS tax 'to' my father, your folks, the retired couple down the street who failed to plan their retirement, or those who perhaps got the proverbial financial rug yanked out from under them. Unlike so many, I don't see it as my money. My plan is to never collect a dime from my children. Hopefully and my-plan-fully.

[Mark Bolton]

I've often thought a basic knowledge of nutrition and preventive health at an early age would go a long way toward improving our health care situation.

Been in place in the US for perhaps 40 years aggressively but also aggressively skewed by politics and corporate interest (meat industry, dairy, grain, run it on down to now the soda/cola industry has a foot in the door with school negotiations for cafeteria offerings).

Then it comes back around to the R/W agenda that these lessons are to be taught at home and not by the schools/government which means the idiots who breed will spawn children who eat crappy food because their parents werent smart enough or to busy working, screwing off, or out finding crack, to teach their kids that celery sticks are better than mountain dew. So then the idiot children become the burden on society that the R/W curses and should be left in the gutters to become compost.

Every incantation of this "moral compass" that goes round in these conversations has been in place for 40 years now in some form or fashion and sadly it always boils down to either someone doing what they know is right, or being forced to do what is right because they were scheisters. Sadly the second in the list is the norm due to greed.

[Edwin Santos]

Been in place in the US for perhaps 40 years aggressively .....



Well then, my two kids have missed out on it. One is in 7th grade, the other in 9th, and neither has had a class or even a chapter on nutrition. What they get at school is almost exclusively what the schools are rewarded on by the standardized state exams, basically a STEM curriculum. Anything outside of STEM is either non-existent or token. Nutrition and basic fitness and health? Not so much.
So yes, in our case it has been, and continues to be taught at home. Even when at the grocery store together, we try to make sure they know how to read labels, how to identify what is deceptive and what is not.

[Brian Holcombe]

There's more to it than that. The ethical objection to publicly company stock buybacks in certain circumstances is when companies buy back their own stock using stimulus money or bailout money (such as TARP). The intention behind the government stimulus has been partly to ensure the health of a threatened company or industry that is influential on the economy. But the goal is also that the money the Feds are giving will get deployed in the form of capital that will benefit the broader economy such as creating jobs, building plants, warehouses, stores, offices. When that money simply goes into the coffers of the recipient and then is used for a buyback, then it only benefits the limited universe of its stockholders, not the broader economy, and certainly not the little guy. In this scenario, the taxpayers have been gamed.

In other circumstances, when there is no stimulus or subsidy money involved, buying back stock that the company perceives as being undervalued is a perfectly legitimate thing to do because they are utilizing their own earned capital.

Hoarding cash in an age of zero or near zero interest rates will continue to be questionable, especially if a company has access to the debt (and equity) markets for financing purposes. In fact, zero interest rate policy is intended by design to punish cash hoarding, whether it be a large company or retired saver living on a fixed income. The Federal Reserve has created enormous disincentive for capital to be stockpiled in savings and instead be deployed into the markets and economy instead. And there you have the engine that has been driving the escalation in appreciating asset values and wealth (at least for a certain segment) over the past 25 years or so.

I couldn't agree with you more wholeheartedly about the importance of a basic understanding of economics and personal finance at an young age.
On a somewhat related note, I've often thought a basic knowledge of nutrition and preventive health at an early age would go a long way toward improving our health care situation.

Not always, the most recent round of these objections was applied to companies which were behaving normally in a normal environment and were then impacted by a health crisis which was not within their normal realm of concern. Frankly, if a top executive at an airline were pushing to hoard cash in mid 2019 for the chance that there would be a complete shutdown of the global economy they would have been oustered and replaced by someone deemed to be sane. We look at it with a different mindset now because it happened. At that point one should not go back and blame these companies for behaving normally in a normal environment. If they do not alter their behavior going forward than it's the shareholders who should be requesting such changes and if not they will fail and be replaced possibly by a type of company better suited to the current environment. Personally I do not want them to fail, I want them to survive and succeed while altering behavior.

If we offer them help, sure then it is reasonable to have some strings as to how to they use the money during the time period for which it is used. Outside of that it's between the shareholders and the company's executive board as to what get distributed as long as it is legal.

Mandating the restriction of dividends generally harms retirees whose incomes are reduced because of it. Those retirees are then forced to choose between selling stock on a timeperiod basis to create income or search for those same distributions via taking larger risk. This also causes reduced incentive to own stock in a down market. This combined with a market in which bonds do not create much income is recipe for a situation in which people need much larger pools of money to retire and feel as if they must work for many more years reducing the amount of jobs available to younger folks.

WRT to TARP please do keep in mind that many of those banks were healthy and the forces that be wanted them to buy up those troubled banks only to then start bashing them after the fact for having done so. Also, TARP benefited the tax payer in the long run. Meaning the program was profitable for the government.

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/

Shareholders are the broader economy and includes every single person who owns a mutual fund and it is highly inclusive. Any person who can open a brokerage account or retirement account through their own self or their employer (practically everyone) can invest in stocks and participate in the success or failure of a company....ANYONE. I made my first investments as a poor college student with money earned from a welding job.

Healthy companies do create jobs, the banking sector was nearly demolished in 2008 and within years had recovered, expanded and created a huge number of jobs.

As a shareholder I want companies to behave, I don't want them to take extraordinary risk and I dont want them to be so cautious that they can't move. I also like them to be well behaved good citizens. No shareholder in their right mind wants a company to behave irresponsibly. I vote with my allocation, if they make poor decisions I do not invest. If they make decisions I deem wise then I invest.

[Nicolas Silva]

Quality is NOT important in this day of the 'Walmart' generation - Price is. You (and by that I mean China) make it cheap and people will buy it.
Having said that - There are obstacles to manufactured goods being Made in USA. Let's see:
1) Where will the labor force come from? Millennials don't want to work in a manufacturing environment. They think being on a computer all day is hard work. How do you think they will react to a hot mfg. floor?
and of course they expect to be paid $60-$80k for even the smallest job. Of course those of us of the boomer generation are now retiring which is why skilled labor is hard to find.
2) The same employers that are complaining that skilled labor has dwindled will not support an apprenticeship program. Hence, it goes overseas.

[Jim Becker]

Nicolas, $60K/yr is subsistence living in many parts of the country at this point...that said, I absolutely agree that things like apprenticeship are needed as well as a validation mindset that trades and manufacturing are "worthy" when it comes to providing strong income. We had a lengthy thread about that awhile back, as a matter of fact.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Nicolas,
This morning, my Millennial sons (x2) helped me demolish and stack for bulk trash p/u ~180ft of 8ft tall stockade fence, including cutting off galvanized posts at the ground. Counting clean up, we were 4 hrs., and you will be aware of the local temperature and humidity today. They hustled to get done and I paid them with a handshake, a 'thank you', and a yet-to-be-delivered hug - - after they shower! :D

It is too easy to paint with a wide brush. Please be careful lest you judge all too harshly.

[Frederick Skelly]

As a shareholder I want companies to behave, I don't want them to take extraordinary risk and I dont want them to be so cautious that they can't move. I also like them to be well behaved good citizens. No shareholder in their right mind wants a company to behave irresponsibly. I vote with my allocation, if they make poor decisions I do not invest. If they make decisions I deem wise then I invest.

Absolutely agree.

[Jerry Bruette]

2) The same employers that are complaining that skilled labor has dwindled will not support an apprenticeship program. Hence, it goes overseas.

In the 23 years I've been working for my present employer I've helped train at least 7 millwright apprentices, and I've watched as many industrial electrical apprentices get their journeyman card. I can think of at least four other companies within 20 miles of my home that also support apprentices in the trades, millwright, pipefitter, industrial electrician, instrumentation.

Wisconsin has/had a very good apprenticeship program. But in the 25 years since I've earned my millwright card I've watched the program go from active classroom discussion between the instructor and all students in the classroom to a self paced program of computer classes and tests. Read the information on your computer screen and take a test. Show up for every school day and pass the tests and you are now the proud owner of a journeyman card.

How did the indentureship program get to where it is? Industry drove it there. There are advisory boards made up of salary employees from industry that dictate to the tech colleges what they want taught and that they want faster results i.e. get the apprentices through the program quicker.

There's an enormous amount of knowledge and experience that's not being passed on to these apprentices because of the missing discussions and interaction between students in the classroom. Knowing what I know I don't think I could/would want to do an apprenticeship under the current system, knowing how much knowledge I would be missing out on.

[Brian Holcombe]

Drifting from OP topic, but your plan seems wise, responsible, and reeks of self-sufficiency. Hmmm.... could we be from the same far-away planet?? :confused::eek::confused:

I pay SS tax 'to' my father, your folks, the retired couple down the street who failed to plan their retirement, or those who perhaps got the proverbial financial rug yanked out from under them. Unlike so many, I don't see it as my money. My plan is to never collect a dime from my children. Hopefully and my-plan-fully.

Much appreciated! My father and grandfather are/were both firm believers in being self-sufficient.

[Edwin Santos]

Not always, the most recent round of these objections was applied to companies which were behaving normally in a normal environment and were then impacted by a health crisis which was not within their normal realm of concern. Frankly, if a top executive at an airline were pushing to hoard cash in mid 2019 for the chance that there would be a complete shutdown of the global economy they would have been oustered and replaced by someone deemed to be sane. We look at it with a different mindset now because it happened. At that point one should not go back and blame these companies for behaving normally in a normal environment.

Brian, IMO the issue of stock buybacks, even the recent criticism of them, is considerably more complicated than you may think. There are arguments in favor and arguments against. Given your interest in this area, you may find this particular article interesting:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-advisors/121415/stock-buybacks-good-thing-or-not.asp

I felt it laid out some of the pros and cons in an objective way and I hope you find it useful.

There is a also an interesting accounting interplay between a company's book value and market value that arises out of a stock buyback that the article doesn't cover. Basically when a company buys back its stock, it is driving down it's book value insofar as it's assets are being debited against a credit to the equity side of the balance sheet. The result? A reduction in outstanding equity, hence a short term boost to EPS and a short term boost to stock price, P/E being equal. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, but if the incentive for doing so is a boost to executive compensation tied to a stock price boost, the move might not be aligned with a long term investor because it is an undeniable matter of accounting that the result is a smaller balance sheet and a reduction in book value. Most of the time, a long term investor is interested in a growing book value, not a declining one masked by a concentration of outstanding equity.

Under historically normal circumstances, an excess cash situation like this would have resulted in a dividend. But in recent years, the nature of P/E ratios on stock prices caused some smart people to figure out that buying back stock was an inventive way to boost EPS, and influence stock price (and maybe executive bonuses) in a way that dividends will not do. This is one reason why stock buybacks have become the new dividend as a matter of fashion.

I say the boost to price is often short term, because usually the market recognizes when a company is buying back stock in lieu of expansion of its business and the P/E ratio will invariably lose some of the growth factor and usually drop, negating the initial price increase. The other question is whether the cash was utilized in this manner in lieu of reinvestment in the business or other deferred capital spending.
However if the cash had no other uses, and the company feels it's market stock price is not reflective of it's market value, then a buyback can be a perfectly legitimate thing to do. So this is why I say it's complicated.
Some of the hearings on Capitol Hill have gone into the weeds on this subject, and the criticism runs much deeper than Monday morning quarterbacking in light of Covid-19. Basically the complaints are either misappropriation of Federal subsidy or companies stripping their balance sheets to drive up stock prices and executive compensation as described above.

To be clear, I'm in favor of stock buybacks, but only based on the right incentives and under the right circumstances. I know we're way off topic, but I'll end it there.

[Kev Williams]

Just a tongue-in-cheek observation after reading thru the last 2 pages of this thread... Y'all are making Puerto Rico and Haiti sound like great place to get away from it all, where all there is to worry about is food, water and shelter...
:p

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, IMO the issue of stock buybacks, even the recent criticism of them, is considerably more complicated than you may think. There are arguments in favor and arguments against. Given your interest in this area, you may find this particular article interesting:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-advisors/121415/stock-buybacks-good-thing-or-not.asp

I felt it laid out some of the pros and cons in an objective way and I hope you find it useful.

There is a also an interesting accounting interplay between a company's book value and market value that arises out of a stock buyback that the article doesn't cover. Basically when a company buys back its stock, it is driving down it's book value insofar as it's assets are being debited against a credit to the equity side of the balance sheet. The result? A reduction in outstanding equity, hence a short term boost to EPS and a short term boost to stock price, P/E being equal. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, but if the incentive for doing so is a boost to executive compensation tied to a stock price boost, the move might not be aligned with a long term investor because it is an undeniable matter of accounting that the result is a smaller balance sheet and a reduction in book value. Most of the time, a long term investor is interested in a growing book value, not a declining one masked by a concentration of outstanding equity.

Under historically normal circumstances, an excess cash situation like this would have resulted in a dividend. But in recent years, the nature of P/E ratios on stock prices caused some smart people to figure out that buying back stock was an inventive way to boost EPS, and influence stock price (and maybe executive bonuses) in a way that dividends will not do. This is one reason why stock buybacks have become the new dividend as a matter of fashion.

I say the boost to price is often short term, because usually the market recognizes when a company is buying back stock in lieu of expansion of its business and the P/E ratio will invariably lose some of the growth factor and usually drop, negating the initial price increase. The other question is whether the cash was utilized in this manner in lieu of reinvestment in the business or other deferred capital spending.
However if the cash had no other uses, and the company feels it's market stock price is not reflective of it's market value, then a buyback can be a perfectly legitimate thing to do. So this is why I say it's complicated.
Some of the hearings on Capitol Hill have gone into the weeds on this subject, and the criticism runs much deeper than Monday morning quarterbacking in light of Covid-19. Basically the complaints are either misappropriation of Federal subsidy or companies stripping their balance sheets to drive up stock prices and executive compensation as described above.

To be clear, I'm in favor of stock buybacks, but only based on the right incentives and under the right circumstances. I know we're way off topic, but I'll end it there.

First, I want to state something which has been taken for granted lately, I'm in no way implying that you are doing this but I want to state it: I can argue for the freedom to do something without agreeing with it's application in every single instance. So, not every time a company does a stock buy back do I agree with it. Infact I rarely agree with them unless the company is clearly under valued. That said I think companies should be doing it now and very few of them are because of the need to retain cash and not look bad in the public's rather short term view.

What I'm also arguing against is this thing in which we reframe yesterday and hold it to today's standards. The cascading economic effect of the lockdown should not be blamed on economic participants for not foreseeing its possibility and preparing for it. It's an impossible standard to hold a company to and all of this nonsense about how buybacks and dividends are to blame is just a way to argue for the (unwanted) government intervention into how companies reward their stakeholders. Shareholders bear the risk of everything including and especially black swan events.

I am aware of the boost to EPS. If you're taking shares out of the market, clearly the EPS will rise. This is quoted pretty routinely as a benefit but I think its a dubious point as anyone aware of the fact that they're doing this (every single analyst who covers the company would be aware of it) is going to adjust for it in their comparisons. Most 'cash cow' style public companies buy back stock on the regular, the majority reason why they do this is because it is considerably more flexible than dividends.

Investors, such as myself, will punish a high dividend payer for cutting their dividend. As example ConocoPhillips slashed their dividend in 2016 and the stock dropped tremendously in the days that followed. By comparison when a company stops a buyback program in the near term investors rarely complain and it typically has no effect on the near term stock price. Dividends are clearly a commitment that buybacks aren't, for that reason buybacks are preferred as the flexible option for clearing out an excess cash problem.

CEO's don't make these sort of decisions in a vacuum or by decree, these are typically something the board must be in approval of, that limits the opportunity for someone to manipulate these sort of things in a way that benefits them and damages the shareholders. Normally the shareholders would vote that person out in rapid fashion. The entire purpose of the executives in a company is to do what benefits the shareholders, most executives are themselves shareholders so they're incentivized to do so. This may seem like a naive point of view given how much grief that position takes in popular culture, but it is indeed their purpose.

[Doug Dawson]

To be clear, I'm in favor of stock buybacks, but only based on the right incentives and under the right circumstances. I know we're way off topic, but I'll end it there.

This whole thing would be moot if companies were given their stimulus in the form of debit cards.

[Ronald Blue]

This has been an interesting read. Some great thoughts here. Some people subtly loathe this great country but yet they are here "cashing" in. Hmmmm The fact is whether there are still apprenticeship programs in place or not in some areas that we are running short of those who are willing to get their hands dirty. I have an awesome job for a "BIG" company. Am I a number to them? Definitely! I have traveled to a lot of areas in my job. I have met lots of good people and some not so good. Something that sticks in my mind though is the legal immigrants I have met in my travels. They are happy to be here and don't mind working to get ahead. They don't complain that the handouts aren't enough. They aren't looking for handouts. Only the opportunity to make it on their own. There are as many different opinions as there are people on SMC. What's great is this country allows you to express them. We might only agree to disagree. To bad that isn't acceptable anymore. Seems like for some it's all about shouting louder than someone else than to respectfully have a difference of opinion. That troubles me and that seems to be the common theme these days. Are millennial's given a bad rap? Yes and no. Clearly a situation where all get grouped as a whole but many are as hard working as any of us. That can be said of every group of us. Australia is a great country/place no doubt. Lot's to like there. Just remember that every rose also has thorns. I know my post is all over the place. I'm not as intellectual or articulate as some of you. All the best to you just the same.

[John K Jordan]

... Seems like for some it's all about shouting louder than someone else than to respectfully have a difference of opinion. ...that seems to be the common theme these days...

I might use that statement.

[Rick Potter]

I hope people in other countries will read about how bad this one is, and quit trying so hard to get in.

[Jim Tobias]

I hope people in other countries will read about how bad this one is, and quit trying so hard to get in.

A Sensible thought......it isn't sooooooo complicated. Simple proof.
Jim

[Doug Dawson]

I hope people in other countries will read about how bad this one is, and quit trying so hard to get in.

At the rate things are going, we will be needing them.

Just say, The economy starts on the ground floor. Etc.

[Mark Bolton]

Some people subtly loathe this great country but yet they are here "cashing" in. Hmmmm The fact is whether there are still apprenticeship programs in place or not in some areas that we are running short of those who are willing to get their hands dirty


These statements (heard regularly) always give give me pause as they seem to be quickly tossed out, but simply dont add up.

The notion that one who pays taxes to support a country and has any ounce of commentary pertaining to the country itself or the corporations that run the country, in regards to its/their shortcomings, mistakes that seemingly are never learned from, and so on, yet the inidvidual is working, supporting their country directly, are somehow "cashing in" is a bit ludicrous. I dont think a lot of people in this country are of the notion that they are "cashing in". They are working their butts off, paying taxes, paying into the economy on a daily basis, and see horrifically bad mistakes and decisions being made that either impact them directly (a selfish conscience) OR impact others unfairly (a compasionate conscience) or a mixture of both (the majority of the country).

Statements like this reinforce the notion of "sheep". That have no position in life other than to wander the field and wait to be herded and sheared. Thats not the United States of America. "They" are suppose to be the sheep, and "We" (the people) are suppose to be the shepherds. Far too often the right seems to want to flip that equation because they want to be the shepherd and cash the big checks.

Its a "throw up in the back of your mouth" moment when every time one of these conversations comes up you have to hear/read some amalgamation of the mindblowingly cool scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtpOtFIEkbs as if if you are to question anything about the US while paying your taxes you are treasonous. When I feel that corporations, and politicians who are allowed legal insider trading rules, and on and on, selling their country down the river for obscene corporate and personal profit is pretty much in the same camp.

[Mark Bolton]

At the rate things are going, we will be needing them.

Just say, The economy starts on the ground floor. Etc.

There is no "at the rate we are going". They have been needed for 20+ years. Your green bell peppers would cost $20 a piece, citrus fruits, produce, apples, would be gold bars for the majortiy. Farmers here for years have had to advertise for domestic help prior to hiring migrant workers, no one applies, or if they do they never show, or dont make it to the first coffee break leaving never to come back. Talk to a brick mason crew, or concrete finisher. The vast majority cant find help to save their lives. One of my old finishers has contracted with a firm that specifically, and legally, brings in workers. They work his best men into the ground. The mill my hardwood comes from (3 million board feet on the yard at any given time) had zero choice other than to bring in migrant workers. They crush the locals. They ask to stay late (off the clock), come in early (off the clock), they want to work all weekend to help out.

The Malcom's children of the world, while they may work their butt's off for their family, or perhaps if they are doing something they enjoy or feel rewarded by, may well be great performers. But there is a pretty clear understanding that the vast majority do some hard scale-factoring once they are hired and performance/application/passion will take a pretty hard dip in short order.

Comes right back around to insinuating that we can lock the borders and "keep it all in-house". Try it. You will have zero help and your production will be in the ditch in a heartbeat. The workforce just isnt here, and hasnt been here, for 20, perhaps more like 30 years. I can remember being in my teens in the 80's and orchards were bringing in migrant workers to harvest fruit solely because no one would work. It had nothing to do with pay scale.

[Doug Dawson]

There is no "at the rate we are going". They have been needed for 20+ years. Your green bell peppers would cost $20 a piece, citrus fruits, produce, apples, would be gold bars for the majortiy. Farmers here for years have had to advertise for domestic help prior to hiring migrant workers, no one applies, or if they do they never show, or dont make it to the first coffee break leaving never to come back. Talk to a brick mason crew, or concrete finisher. The vast majority cant find help to save their lives. One of my old finishers has contracted with a firm that specifically, and legally, brings in workers. They work his best men into the ground. The mill my hardwood comes from (3 million board feet on the yard at any given time) had zero choice other than to bring in migrant workers. They crush the locals. They ask to stay late (off the clock), come in early (off the clock), they want to work all weekend to help out.

The Malcom's children of the world, while they may work their butt's off for their family, or perhaps if they are doing something they enjoy or feel rewarded by, may well be great performers. But there is a pretty clear understanding that the vast majority do some hard scale-factoring once they are hired and performance/application/passion will take a pretty hard dip in short order.

Comes right back around to insinuating that we can lock the borders and "keep it all in-house". Try it. You will have zero help and your production will be in the ditch in a heartbeat. The workforce just isnt here, and hasnt been here, for 20, perhaps more like 30 years. I can remember being in my teens in the 80's and orchards were bringing in migrant workers to harvest fruit solely because no one would work. It had nothing to do with pay scale.

So we’re in agreement then. :^)

[Fred Vandecoevering]

It isn't Covid that is changing my buying habits. Its the whole idea that China is using the US and its consumers. I would appreciate it if sellers would state the origin of their products! I can only assume it is China if no declaration is made.

[Lee DeRaud]

I would appreciate it if sellers would state the origin of their products!Two words: "supply chain". You might as well not buy anything from anywhere, given that, for any product more complex than a shovel, "country of origin" is ambiguous at best.

I'm reminded of the old joke about the guy who complains to his wife about her bearing him daughters instead of sons. She explains about X/Y chromosomes and how the gender of their children is really his fault, to which he replies, "It's the person's fault who had it last."

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

The prejudice against the products of some countries and in favor of homeland made products is certainly understandable. I had an elderly neighbor (died two years ago) that experienced horrible time in WW2 and was there to "liberate" one of the concentration camps. He would avoid anything German. He is one of the few that obsessed that the Volkswagon was Hitler's concept of an inexpensive people's car. He thought anyone who buys or drives one is a traitor to the 6 million killed in the camps and referred to the cars as Naziwagons.

[Patrick Walsh]

See why I fully empathize with and respect the sentiments of a holocaust survivor I don’t get the it. In the case of the and to the the actually survivor sure.

But behind that bit at all. It’s like to say that every Chinese person is bad because they are forced to do as they do and represented by Xi. Or that every German was in support of and behind the Holocaust. Or in our case currently, what of other nations stated viewing our so called wonderful country as tyranical “as it currently is and stated boycotting out goods in the name as every Mercan agreed with and supported the guy in the White House.

Seems like such a short sighted perspective. To group together a whole nation of people simply because the person in charge of them will “off with their heads” if they don’t do as there told well that’s just lacking in basic common sense imop..

But what do I know I’m just a privileged mercan. And that much I actually mean..


The prejudice against the products of some countries and in favor of homeland made products is certainly understandable. I had an elderly neighbor (died two years ago) that experienced horrible time in WW2 and was there to "liberate" one of the concentration camps. He would avoid anything German. He is one of the few that obsessed that the Volkswagon was Hitler's concept of an inexpensive people's car. He thought anyone who buys or drives one is a traitor to the 6 million killed in the camps and referred to the cars as Naziwagons.

[Brian Holcombe]

America is the melting pot, so retaining manufacturing jobs by requiring a level playing field for trade actually goes a long way toward offering opportunities to a broad range of folks in the US.

Trading is generally good, it increases competition which lowers pricing while theoretically making a better product. When one trading partner is held to rigid standards across the board and the other is held to very few standards then the situation is untenable for one trading partner.

We want a lot but really aren’t interesting in putting policy in place that actually supports our common goals. If human rights and decent working environments are a priority than one must hold their trading partners to the same standard or one is then simply taking away opportunity from those enacting good conditions in favor of those who ignore them.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes saying “you/we” set a standard for basic humane work conditions so forth and so on but then asking you or hiring someone else to do something for us is pretty much akin to putting ones hands over their eyes and saying “I can’t see it from my house” but if it makes better life for my family so be it. Or hiring someone to take out your adversary fully believing you won’t be held responsible and in the case of government and big business knowing you can’t or won’t. And if you are to be caught it’s a slim chance and a slap on the wrist.

Pretty much what happens on a much smaller level rampant through the workplace here stateside. Us hard workers and honest people will always be fully aware that a percentage of our coworkers will always be ok with pawning their work off on someone else and not feeling bad about it. Imop pretty much the ugliest side of us humans.

But I do agree it drives competition and yes competition drive innovation as us humans just love our green lawns, burgers, fries, and anything that can get em to us bigger and faster with less work and cost :(

[Brian Elfert]

I don't obsess over country of origin like some do. I will almost always look for made in USA first, but if it has to come from China so be it. I know a number of people who claim if it is made in China they won't buy it. (I wonder how they use the Internet on a device not made in China?)

I want to keep jobs in the USA and often, not always, the USA item is better quality.