For all the hollow grinders (and anyone else) out there

[Tim Best]

If I had the option of a subtitle for this thread, it would definitely be:

"If not for the free time in my schedule and the free shipping offered by Lee Valley, none of this would be happening."

Hi all. Like many, I have found myself with a little extra time on my hands lately, which has led to a re-evaluation of how I sharpen my plane irons and chisels. I took the hand tool plunge because I like my fingers attached and I really enjoy the sweet serenity of silence. After ogling over some of the images of precision hollow ground chisels and plane irons on the Creek and elsewhere and looking for a slightly faster way to grind and/or change primary bevels, and improve my freehand sharpening, I decided to dust off my much neglected 6" variable speed Delta bench grinder and invest in a tool rest and jig from Lee Valley. The grinder wheels are stock wheels, but spin true. Much to my surprise, the old grinder has almost no run out! Off to a good start!

I installed the tool rest according to the instructions with the tool rest 2 inches from the base of grinder and square to the grinding wheel. I set the angle I was shooting for by using the included angle setting thingamajig and double checked its accuracy with a protractor. (I am so glad I paid attention that one day all those years ago in geometry class!) Installation was straight forward, but that is where my joy ended. Attached are my three test attempts on some cheap chisels of varying sizes. Something is amiss.

For starters, it took a long time. I think I could have reground the primary bevel faster on coarse sandpaper. I properly dressed the wheel prior to starting so I do not think it was a case of wheel glazing, but not certain. The perplexing thing, one of them anyway, was my inability to grind a complete hollow. I managed to get close with chisel three, but I just could not get a full regrind. Also, has anyone else had issues with the jig not grinding square? The tool rest is square to grinder and the chisel is placed in the jig firmly against the alignment pin.

I know there are several older threads that deal with this particular tool rest and jig, but I thought I would ask for thoughts, let everyone "admire" my handiwork, and hopefully get some pointers on how to properly use the tool rest and jig.
Chuckles on me tonight! Thanks. 432949432950432951

[scott lipscomb]

Looks to me like you are not done grinding the hollow yet. I suspect that your wheels aren't cutting the steel very well. Hard to say without knowing what kind of wheels that you are using. As far as square, even with a good jig, or rest, I think you still have to check your progress and make sure that you are getting a square edge. Have a square handy and check your progress as you go. Hope that helps. Maybe order a new grinding wheel? I have a 180 CBN wheel and its dope.

[Brian Eaton]

Have you checked the bevel angles after grinding with a protractor or angle gauge (not sure if that is the right name - the little brass wheel with cut out notches for different bevel angles)? I had difficulty setting my grinder rest up with the included Veritas jig.

Ultimately, I resorted to taking one of my chisels that I had verified a 25 degree bevel on and using it to set the angle of the rest. The way I read to do so was to set the tool on the rest with the bevel on the wheel and eyeball it so that the wheel contacts the middle of the bevel. Give the wheel a spin by hand and then look at the scratches on the bevel. If they are in the middle of the bevel then it is at approximately 25 degrees.

I admit that isn't a fool proof nor long term method but it has worked for me for now and i do occasionally verify with an angle gauge thingamabob.

[Beau Brooks]

I used a chisel that I had with a 25 degree stock bevel to set my jig/rest as well and haven’t touched it since. Also I scrapped the guide that rides in the rest and it seems to work better. I believe Rob Cosman has a video on hollow grinding a plane iron that would help to understand how to best use the grinder and tool rest.

[William Fretwell]

Hollow grinding can be a big time saver on thick plane blades and I suppose large chisels, though there are other options. I have not done it on chisels. Your hollow grinding seems off square, you have destroyed the front edge on one.
The idea is to not touch the front edge or the back edge just create a small depression in the middle to reduce sharpening time. Take it slow, check the position and squareness, then stop when you have a depression. If you destroy the edge you have to re-establish the main bevel, you may not save much time!

[Rafael Herrera]

Is this the tool you're using?

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/jigs-mounts-and-rests/32973-veritas-grinder-tool-rest

Unless you are careful to move the blade left to right without swiveling it, you will get a hollow that is not 90 degrees with the long axis of the chisel. Also, as William above pointed out, don't grind the back of the bevel or the cutting edge.

Rafael

[Andrew Hughes]

I also hollow grind some of my chisels but mostly my Plane blades because they are A2 .
The easiest way to keep track of you squareness is to hold of the chisel and look at the back. Your eye will pick up the Side that looks longer.
Good luck

[Tim Best]

William,

Thanks for the response. I should have better articulated what I was trying to accomplish with these chisels. I wanted to establish a new primary bevel on all three of these chisels both for practice and because they really needed some work. These are the chisels that I bought when I was first teaching myself how to sharpen. While originally factory ground to +or- 30 degrees, by the time I took them to the grinder yesterday, they were off squared with multiple facets. The destruction was intended. I wanted to start fresh with new primary bevels on each chisel. I also wanted the hollow grind to aid when I honed these on the water stones. Either way, I had few minutes this morning and made second attempt with some progress...I think. Also, These have not been honed yet.

433000 433001

[Tim Best]

Rafael,

Yes that is the tool rest I have. The tool rest is solid, but the sliding jig that I purchased is a bit more finicky than I anticipated.

[chris carter]

I hollow ground all my irons and chisels. I’m actually going back and touching up a few because after two years of stropping and the occasional stoke, I’m losing the hollow enough to make it more difficult to get registration when freehand sharpening and also makes it take longer to sharpen.

Looking at the Veritas jig for their tool rest, that looks like a problem causer rather than a problem solver. That’s my one issue with Veritas is sometimes they go solving problems that don’t exist and sometimes their solution just makes more of a problem than the original problem. I’ve been bitten before! It’s really no big deal to slide the iron reasonably straight across the tool rest. Maybe not the first or second iron, but by the third you’ve got it down cold.

I use a fat sharpie to color the entire bevel, then scratch on the wheel to find the center. The tool rest on my super cheap Craftsman grinder is a pain to adjust so if I’m close I’ll “shim” with a piece of masking tape on the edge of the rest to micro-adjust the angle to get it dead center to my bevel. Then, when grinding, check after each pass. If a little too much has come off the left side, then just do the next pass on just the right side. Etc. You adjust as you go if things get a little wonky because nobody can drag a perfect 90 degrees.

Touch ups are very fast. However, grinding an entirely new bevel on some heavily damage tool or a substantial bevel angle change are annoyingly slow processes.

[Chris Fournier]

I use the LV tool rest on both wheels on my 7" grinder. I have used and will continue to use the tool holder with the rest when I feel that is will help me. I don't mind it but it has a loose fit to the tool rest and if you don't recognise and account for this you can get very frustrated. I almost always freehand because I have used this set up for years and have got the technique down reasonably well.

I have yet to see a bench grinder sold with wheels worthy of sharpening garden tools. A proper wheel is so important. I don't have the specs on my wheels currently but I use 46 and 60 grits with a friable bond. The 46 grit gets the job done very quickly and the honing isn't tough. I don't use a star dresser very often but I rely on a single point diamond to true and clean up my wheels.

I find that it is way more efficient to re-grind the hollow once the honed facets on the hollow grind are about 1.5mm to 2.0 mm than to continue to hone until the hollow is almost all gone. Once you have the touch with your grinder you won't be removing much material from your tools at all. Grinding is faster than honing inch for inch in my experience.

I can get my wheel specs for you if you like. Let me know.

[Christopher Charles]

I use crowned wheels and hollow grind free-hand as described by Joel M. from TFWW in a FWW article a while back (and is probably on YT somewhere). I have the 'slow speed' 8" grinder with white wheels that woodcraft sold ~10 years ago. Mark the back with a sharpie and check with a square as you go.

Takes some practice to go freehand, but opens up other possibilities, i.e., adding a camber without stress. I just bought the same LV rest as an upgrade but didn't bother to get the jig.

That's my $0.02-good luck and you'll get there!

[Derek Cohen]

There is often some confusion with how wheel faces should be prepared.

Joel Moskowitz (from Tools for Working Wood) wrote an influential article for FWW magazine over a decade ago. In this he advocated using a crowned wheel for the white and blue bench grinder wheels. The crown created a smaller area on the wheel, and made for more control in directing where the hollow grind work was done. I used this method for a number of years, and it works well. It is relevant to note that it is only designed to be used when freehand grinding.

Some choose to leave the wheel face flat. This works fine as well, but it is preferred then (in my opinion) that the wheel is wide, since one can then push the bevel into the wheel, rather than run the blade across the face, as in the previous method.

Then there is the Tormek, which is another grinder, albeit wet and slow. The reason advantage of the Tormek is the blade holder and guide. This runs across the wheel and creates an even and repeatable hollow. It is important for these wheels to be flat and parallel with the guide. When I discovered CBN wheels some years ago, I allied the Tormek BGM-100 guide to the flat CBN wheel for what I consider to be a simple and highly effective hollow grinding set up. The advantage of CBN is no wear and no maintenance, which is a major issue with the white wheels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

If I had the option of a subtitle for this thread, it would definitely be:

"If not for the free time in my schedule and the free shipping offered by Lee Valley, none of this would be happening."

Hi all. Like many, I have found myself with a little extra time on my hands lately, which has led to a re-evaluation of how I sharpen my plane irons and chisels. I took the hand tool plunge because I like my fingers attached and I really enjoy the sweet serenity of silence. After ogling over some of the images of precision hollow ground chisels and plane irons on the Creek and elsewhere and looking for a slightly faster way to grind and/or change primary bevels, and improve my freehand sharpening, I decided to dust off my much neglected 6" variable speed Delta bench grinder and invest in a tool rest and jig from Lee Valley. The grinder wheels are stock wheels, but spin true. Much to my surprise, the old grinder has almost no run out! Off to a good start!

I installed the tool rest according to the instructions with the tool rest 2 inches from the base of grinder and square to the grinding wheel. I set the angle I was shooting for by using the included angle setting thingamajig and double checked its accuracy with a protractor. (I am so glad I paid attention that one day all those years ago in geometry class!) Installation was straight forward, but that is where my joy ended. Attached are my three test attempts on some cheap chisels of varying sizes. Something is amiss.

For starters, it took a long time. I think I could have reground the primary bevel faster on coarse sandpaper. I properly dressed the wheel prior to starting so I do not think it was a case of wheel glazing, but not certain. The perplexing thing, one of them anyway, was my inability to grind a complete hollow. I managed to get close with chisel three, but I just could not get a full regrind. Also, has anyone else had issues with the jig not grinding square? The tool rest is square to grinder and the chisel is placed in the jig firmly against the alignment pin.

I know there are several older threads that deal with this particular tool rest and jig, but I thought I would ask for thoughts, let everyone "admire" my handiwork, and hopefully get some pointers on how to properly use the tool rest and jig.
Chuckles on me tonight! Thanks. 432949432950432951



If you're changing the angle, regrinds can take a little extra time;
Unless the edge is chipped, the grinder is there only to produce a hollow; you don't grind to the edge even when changing angles. Get close, and let the stones do the rest;
All you really need a tool rest to be is a pivot point for the tool being ground, it usually doesn't require an elaborate after-market tool rest to accomplish this simple feat;
If you think you need angular accuracy to within one degree, you're missing the entire point and your overall woodworking life is probably going to be hell.

[Jim Matthews]

I use a single, convex bevel - there's no settings at all.

While it arguably uses more steel, and offers less precision - the method simplifies the process.

No power grinding required.

[steven c newman]

433096
Handyman No.1251. Single flat bevel....can be used to shave with..
433097
Back is flat. Honed to 2500 grit, and then stropped on just plain leather ( well worn..) I do have a nice bare patch on my left forearm, BTW.

YMMV

[Chris Fournier]

To my way of thinking crowning a wheel might provide the advantage of a smaller working area on the stone and less to worry about/control but it's akin to choking up on a hammer handle - you're giving up on the full potential of the tool. I bought a surface grinder years ago to get the tolerances I needed on some metal projects. With that grinder came a tonne of research and the metalworking industry was only too glad to tell all! Admittedly the surface grinder works a bit differently than a bench grinder but if you feed into the same side of the wheel every time the benefits of a flat wheel are real. The wheel breaks down first on the feed side creating clearance (subtle I know), the far side of the wheel stays sharp the longest and is the last surface to touch the tooling giving you the best results.

I made a couple of different set ups so that I could hollow and flat grind plane blades on the surface grinder and they came out really nicely but good technique on the bench grinder is faster and it is in the woodshop, not down the road in the metal shop.

There is so much great sharpening information to be had in the metalworking world that we can apply to our WWKg tools. Anything relating to HSS is 100% applicable to us woodworkers.

Regardless, as long as we end up with sharp tools as fast as possible in our respective shops we're in the game.

[Joel Gelman]

"Joel Moskowitz (from Tools for Working Wood) wrote an influential article for FWW magazine over a decade ago. In this he advocated using a crowned wheel for the white and blue bench grinder wheels. The crown created a smaller area on the wheel, and made for more control in directing where the hollow grind work was done. I used this method for a number of years, and it works well. It is relevant to note that it is only designed to be used when freehand grinding."
Derek Cohen

I should have read that before purchasing my non crowned 1.5 inch wide CBN wheels for my 6 inch grinder to use for hollow grinding chisel and plane blades. A year ago, I went to a workshop where they had a 6 inch grinder with non CBN 3/4 inch wide wheels with a wheel dressing tool next to it. The high point was in the center of the wheel. Nothing fancy. With a tool rest and no special jig, it worked great as long as you first made sure the point of contact on the bevel was correct. Goal was a hollow that did not extend all the way to either the front or back of the bevel of the blade. When I came home, I thought CBN would be an upgrade, but I had no good control, and figured it was a mistake to have a non crowned wide wheel CBN or not. Then I went back to another workshop and had the pleasure of using the 3/4 wide crowned wheels again. Worked great. Lesson learned.

Now that I am back, I am inclined to just get a standard 3/4 wide wheel and a tool dresser. When I look up the 6 inch 1/2 inch arbor CBN wheels, I am seeing 1 inch with radius edge, but not sure there is a CBN wheel that comes with a profile that works as well as the wheel I used at the workshop. It would be nice to have the benefits of CBN, but that is only if I can get use it with the same control over the hollow grind that I can get with a non CBN wheel. If anyone has found a particular 6 inch crowned CBN wheel that works really well for freehand hollow grinding, I would be interested. Otherwise I think I will just duplicate what is used at the workshop (Center for Furniture Craftsmanship in Maine).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Joel

As I recall, TFWW sell a crowned CBN wheel. I use the Tormek tool rest on an 8" half-speed bench grinder with flat CBN wheels. It's been a decade with this set up and I have never considered anything else. Keep in mind that Joel (at TFWW) advocated the crowned wheel at a time when the wheels used were difficult to keep flat and square, therefore less reliable. The solution was to add a camber. CBN wheels do not have these issues.

I switch between freehand grinding (on a flat surface) and the Tormek blade holder (which works as it runs past the wheel face). Grinder on the right ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Jz529p6f/2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[stephen thomas]

Does the jig you are using reference the "sharp" face of the tool, or the other (top?) face?
Not all older chisels are parallel between back and face, because despite the beauty, uniformity of surface, and apparent flatness, they were mostly hand ground to shape all over from the forgings.
I don't mean just the 19thc items, either, i mean often up into the 1950's for the old school manufacturers.

I have to wonder if part of the reason people like crowned wheels in other shops is because perhaps the wheels were dressed with a star-wheel dresser?
There are 2 parts to this
1.) even on a surface grinder, it is often productive to use a narrow wheel, or one that has been dressed narrow. There is better grinding and less heating of the work.
I surface grind mostly like Chris F. describes above, and he is correct. For tool grinding, moving a lot of metal on a narrow edge, i tend to use a narrow contact point.
The fact that a wheel erodes is a feature, not a bug - it constantly exposes fresh grit, rather than dulling the grit in place, failing to dislodge it, and creating heat.

Which leads to part 2.) Diamonds are great for truing wheels round, and for shaping stones precisely, including flat, angles, radii, etc.
However, a diamond actually cuts the abrasive grains, yielding a lot of dull planes. A diamond used for dressing needs to be moved rapidly to create surfaces rough enough to cut freely, including some grain dislodging.
This is where star wheel dressers shine - they knock out and fracture grit, leaving a porous surface with mostly all sharp edges.
When free hand grinding tools, i use the starwheel dresser.
Sometimes in a problem app on the surface grinder such as a sharpening or tool shaping task that is creating a lot of heat (as opposed to plain actual grinding flat surfaces where the process described by Chris is reliable and effective), i will use the starwheel/aka "crackerjack" dresser there, too; though it always complicates the set up. It is not appropriate if you have to find an edge reference.

[Joel Gelman]

Thanks for the feedback. I did note that TFWW does sell a 6 inch diameter 3/4 wide, 1/2 bore 80 grit crowned CBN wheel. If that wheel performs the same as the non CBN wheel I used at the workshop, that works for me. If not, I will use the non CBN. I am aware of the Tormek tool rests. However, for me, I have the Oneway Wolverine tool rests installed, and I figure if a fixed tool rest works for me when using the right 6 inch wheel, I will be happy with that at this point. Thanks again.

[Charles Edward]

Hollow grinding is not supposed to remove length. Quit grinding all the way to the end. Only honing stones remove length. Even if you get a nick, you're better off blunting the chisel on an oilstone, putting the hollow back in to just behind the cutting edge, then honing to a burr on your stones.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of hollow grinding and how to use a grinder. And you have a lot of company.

[Kevin Jenness]

Hollow grinding is not supposed to remove length. Quit grinding all the way to the end. Only honing stones remove length. Even if you get a nick, you're better off blunting the chisel on an oilstone, putting the hollow back in to just behind the cutting edge, then honing to a burr on your stones.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of hollow grinding and how to use a grinder. And you have a lot of company.

Enter me on the company list. I hollow grind a working burr on my turning tools with a dry bench grinder and I grind bench tools to the edge prior to honing. As long as the edge is shaped correctly and not overheated (easier to avoid with cbn wheels) I don't see a problem.

[Rafael Herrera]

I'm just curious, since I only grind when I'm repairing significant damage or reestablishing the primary bevel of chisels or irons. I'm not in the hollow grind company, not that there's anything wrong with it, my oilstones are good enough for me.

If you grind to the edge, I'd imagine you'll loose a lot of steel over time compared to just re-sharpening the bench tools on a whetstone. Or you do that only when you refresh the hollow?

[Charles Edward]

There is NEVER a need to hollow grind to a feather edge. You can blunt the end on a grinder to get past a gash, but things happen very fast on a plain high speed grinder. Your average nick can be blunted away on a coarse oilstone (perfect for the task!) then the hollow refreshed, the working end honed, and unit back in service.

[Derek Cohen]

Charles, I have been hollow grinding for a few decades. At the start this was done on white wheels on a full-speed bench grinder, which one needed to take care with as it was easy to overheat an edge. Under these circumstances, I fully agree with you - only remove steel from the centre of the bevel.

Then I moved to a water-cooled Tormek with a 10" wheel. This changed the game. One could grind to the edge of the blade and no danger of overheating the steel. The Tormek introduced to me the idea of minimal steel to hone as the door to the most efficient sharpening. The thin sliver at the bevel end is all that is needed to hone, and can be done with just a few passes on a waterstone, even skipping the coarser grits since there is so little steel to remove. Hell, I could start with 6000 grit!

When I discovered CBN wheels (on a half-speed 8" bench grinder), I found the compromise I sought: faster grinding (than the Tormek) and cooler grinding (than a vitrous wheel). With a light touch, I can grind to the edge of the blade without much, if any, heat. And - no - the thin steel edge so honed is not fragile or apt to chip any less or more than a fatter edge. That is my experience over time.

Newly-honed chisel ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp_html_71b2c2d0.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

Yep, my post was meant for the $8 no name coarse wheel on a $45 grinder crowd.

Water-cooled, slow wheels will allow safe grinding to the edge, though it's deceptively seductive - like an open air trough pissoir. I've never used CBN so can't comment.

I like edges crafted from honing stones, not grinding wheels, no matter how whiz-bang. This way, I never have to consider for even a moment removing what some grinding wheel put in place.

All I need a wheel to do is produce a hollow. That's it. Other light metalworking tasks are accomplished with files and such.

Cheers.

[Warren Mickley]

With a light touch, I can grind to the edge of the blade without much, if any, heat.


How hot does it get?

[Charles Edward]

Even if it could be done at no risk to the steel 100% of the time, why hollow grind all the way to the edge? It's not the way to remove a gash, it's not really the way to do anything as far as I'm concerned. You?

[steven c newman]

maybe something else to try?

I have a "Sanding Center" 6" disc & 4x36 Belt sander...
I have the table for the Disc set at 90 degrees to the disc...and THAT is where I "Grind" a flat, 25 degree bevel on both the chisels and plane irons in the shop...I keep a cup of water nearby, and dunk quite a bit..letting a fingertip tell me when to do so...Not rocket science...I do have a line etched across that table at the 25 degree mark...yes, I go right to the edge...and usually from there I go to the Unicorn Set-up...

Backs? same, same...when done, ready for work....

[Derek Cohen]

How hot does it get?

Warren, the steel is warm to touch, but not hot. I pinch the steel between fore finger and thumb to check progress.

Note that I have been doing this for many years with non-laminated blades, and have not noticed any drop off in edge-holding. I will add a comment below to Charles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Even if it could be done at no risk to the steel 100% of the time, why hollow grind all the way to the edge? It's not the way to remove a gash, it's not really the way to do anything as far as I'm concerned. You?

Charles, there are two factors to keep in mind:

Firstly, much of the steel I use is thick and hard (PM-V11, M2 and M4, A2), and hollow grinding to the edge, or close to the edge, reduces the amount if steel to hone. This reduction is very noticable in this context.

Secondly, my grinder set up (CBN wheels and Tormek BGM-100 tool rest) ensures a square process. Running the blade against or past the wheel face produces a perfectly straight grind. I do also freehand edges, but these are curved ir shaped. The straight edges are very uniform and predictable. See my photo above.

The reason for doing this should be obvious: speed, efficiency, and reliability.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

Charles, there are two factors to keep in mind:

Firstly, much of the steel I use is thick and hard (PM-V11, M2 and M4, A2), and hollow grinding to the edge, or close to the edge, reduces the amount if steel to hone. This reduction is very noticable in this context.

Secondly, my grinder set up (CBN wheels and Tormek BGM-100 tool rest) ensures a square process. Running the blade against or past the wheel face produces a perfectly straight grind. I do also freehand edges, but these are curved ir shaped. The straight edges are very uniform and predictable. See my photo above.

The reason for doing this should be obvious: speed, efficiency, and reliability.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I regularly use four bench chisels and three hand planes. Add a 1/4" mortise chisel. That's it. My speed and efficiency (I actually claim neither) comes from not keeping a gargantuan collection of tools sharp and fettled. My brain hates clutter, confusion, and excess. I wouldn't know how to employ multiple copies of the same plane offering the same, essential functionality. Ditto chisels. It all seems a bit of a muddle to me. I mean, a one inch chisel is a one inch chisel. How many does one really need? Grinder is a 6" Wen with a coarse wheel and a wire wheel. Don't need it to produce a cutting edge. Bench stones are Norton India which I use with abandon with nary a worry about 'damaging' one. Finishing stone is a No. 1 Washita and a charged hard rubber strop. Slip stones match the bench stones -- India and Arkansas. Same situation with handsaws -- one rip, one coarse crosscut, one fine(r) crosscut. One tenon saw, one gent's dovetail saw, one flush cut saw, one veneer saw, one 12" turning saw.

[Derek Cohen]

I regularly use four bench chisels and three hand planes. Add a 1/4" mortise chisel. That's it. My speed and efficiency (I actually claim neither) comes from not keeping a gargantuan collection of tools sharp and fettled. My brain hates clutter, confusion, and excess. I wouldn't know how to employ multiple copies of the same plane offering the same, essential functionality. Ditto chisels. It all seems a bit of a muddle to me. I mean, a one inch chisel is a one inch chisel. How many does one really need? Grinder is a 6" Wen with a coarse wheel and a wire wheel. Don't need it to produce a cutting edge. Bench stones are Norton India which I use with abandon with nary a worry about 'damaging' one. Finishing stone is a No. 1 Washita and a charged hard rubber strop. Slip stones match the bench stones -- India and Arkansas. Same situation with handsaws -- one rip, one coarse crosscut, one fine(r) crosscut. One tenon saw, one gent's dovetail saw, one flush cut saw, one veneer saw, one 12" turning saw.

Charles, I think that you have the wrong end of the stick here.

This is not about having duplicates for the use thereof. This thread is about the efficiency of sharpening. I do not care how you or anyone else sharpens. I do not plan to critique that. I simply want to ensure my blades are sharp when the time comes to use them. I hate sharpening and want it done quickly. My method works for me. If it can work for another, well that gives me some pleasure.

I do not get why your posts suddenly become defensive. We are mostly on the same page.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

Charles, I think that you have the wrong end of the stick here.

This is not about having duplicates for the use thereof. This thread is about the efficiency of sharpening. I do not care how you or anyone else sharpens. I do not plan to critique that. I simply want to ensure my blades are sharp when the time comes to use them. I hate sharpening and want it done quickly. My method works for me. If it can work for another, well that gives me some pleasure.

I do not get why your posts suddenly become defensive. We are mostly on the same page.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I am absolutely positive that I spend less time sharpening. Why are you grinding edges that aren't nicked? They just need honing. A fine India (even one well worn-in) raises a burr in three strokes. The other two items on my list -- ten strokes each and done. All done at the bench. By the time you walk to your grinding and honing station, I'd be done.

I don't particularly care for grinders and grinding and I think this aversion serves me fairly well.

But, yes, the size of kit being maintained is absolutely part of the overall equation. How could it not be, assuming all those tools are sitting there in a state of readiness.

[Derek Cohen]

I am absolutely positive that I spend less time sharpening. Why are you grinding edges that aren't nicked? They just need honing. A fine India (even one well worn-in) raises a burr in three strokes. The other two items on my list -- ten strokes each and done. All done at the bench. By the time you walk to your grinding and honing station, I'd be done.

But, yes, the size of kit being maintained is absolutely part of the overall equation. How could it not be, assuming all those tools are sitting there in a state of readiness.

Charles, you mix two factors as though they were one.

Firstly, I only sharpen tools I use. I may have a few different "sets", but these represent choices at the start of a build. I generally stick with one set at a time. This is not about managing all the tools, just a few.

Secondly, I do not grind a hollow each time I hone. This is only done when the hollow is advanced. Nevertheless, a full hollow lasts a long time, and there is minimal honing needed for a long time. I have a sharpening station alongside my bench, lean over to hone when dull, and continue. You watched the video I posted? How much time did I spend on the scraper? Three strokes at the bench.

You are trying to build a straw man. It does not fly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, the steel is warm to touch, but not hot. I pinch the steel between fore finger and thumb to check progress.



It seems to me that when you did your chisel tests the chisels that did well were either high chrome steels or Japanese chisels that were not sharpened on a grinder, not hollow ground.


much of the steel I use is thick and hard (PM-V11, M2 and M4, A2)

The steels you mention are not particularly hard; they are merely abrasion resistant. This has been pointed out many many times before.

[Derek Cohen]

It seems to me that when you did your chisel tests the chisels that did well were either high chrome steels or Japanese chisels that were not sharpened on a grinder, not hollow ground.



The steels you mention are not particularly hard; they are merely abrasion resistant. This has been pointed out many many times before.


Warren, do your research ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselParing_html_2f638d73.jpg


Whether it is hard steel or abrasion-resistant steel, the issue is the same.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

Charles, you mix two factors as though they were one.

Firstly, I only sharpen tools I use. I may have a few different "sets", but these represent choices at the start of a build. I generally stick with one set at a time. This is not about managing all the tools, just a few.

Secondly, I do not grind a hollow each time I hone. This is only done when the hollow is advanced. Nevertheless, a full hollow lasts a long time, and there is minimal honing needed for a long time. I have a sharpening station alongside my bench, lean over to hone when dull, and continue. You watched the video I posted? How much time did I spend on the scraper? Three strokes at the bench.

You are trying to build a straw man. It does not fly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I refresh hollows as well, of course. I do maintain a flat bevel on my jack plane though. Seems to work better. Proverbial "lesson in there somewhere..." Just sort of morphed into that. I actually did watch your video recently of you tapering the feet on your trestle table. There were four planes on your bench and I think you used them all. ;) And scraped, and probably did a decent amount of sanding too to blend in flats from the planes and card scraper.

That said, the work was fabulous as is all your work. When you own a lot of tools the natural thing is to want to use them all at least a little.

[Derek Cohen]

Yes, the design called for a very smooth finish, and the surface was sanded 120/240/400 grit using a ROS.

Regards from Perth

Derek