Climate & Glue

[Curt Putnam]

Ruined a glue up a few days ago. I used TB III - weather was 95° with an ambient humidity of 15%. I believe (did not time it) that the glue and tacked and set beyond my ability to move the pieces in about 120 seconds. Was my fault - I simply forgot about the effect of weather on glue having been "spoiled" by a long and wet winter. Had the same issue today. Fortunately I was able to separate the parts because one was end grain.

After the 1st issue, I promptly ordered some DAP Weldwood but that only gives 5 minutes at 90° and is inconvenient to use. I have some 5 minute epoxy that I might try for little pieces.

So what do you fellow desert rats use? At what time of day? I would love to read any commentary from anyone on this subject.

Thanks, Curt

[Jim Koepke]

During some parts of the year it is too cold to glue here.

A couple projects were done when it was inconvenient to take things into the house to glue.

After six years the drawer is still holding without glue > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211707 < The bedside stand built at the same time was glued about a month later.

During hot weather my gluing is either done at the beginning or end of the day.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Curt,

If for indoors (moisture not a problem) use either hot hide glue or liquid hide glue (Old Brown Glue). Hot has a very short open time but there are many way to extend it and heat is one of them. Liquid has longer open time, both work well in hot WX.

ken

[Jim Matthews]

Can you shift your builds to include more mechanical joints, and fewer requiring glue?

For me the "sticking point" is multiple tenons.

*****


The formulations using Urea Formaldehyde stay uncured for about 15 minutes.

I would syill prefer your choice of Titebond III, in smaller bottles - stored in the fridge. It's excellent and easy to clean up - without odd smells.

I would anticipate more, hotter days ahead.

https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/southwest

[chris carter]

The high heat might actually be an advantage if you use hide glue (hot or liquid). It should like the heat and shouldn't complain about the humidity. If it does complain about the humidity just add a smidgen more water (if using hot hide glue)!

[Frank Pratt]

I have some 5 minute epoxy that I might try for little pieces.

Don't do that unless it's a very simple glue up. Even at comfortable room temperature it can set up sooner than that. Get some slow setting epoxy that has a 60 minute set time. That'll give you lots of time to get everything in place & clamped. A hint with epoxy; mix it thoroughly in a cup & then pour it into a shallow pan. If left in the cup, it can generate enough heat to set off in a big hurry. Spread out thin in a pan keeps it cooler.

[Curt Putnam]

Thank you Gentlemen

The big piece that I ruined was to be the first piece of a glue lam - specifically a leg vise chop. It was just as well, I'd planned on using clamps to settle some irregularities - wasn't going to work. I know because I tried it anyway. Yesterday's item was a small corbel for an outdoor shelf - so hide glue would not have worked well.

My shop faces east which means that it heats up well before I am coherent in the morning. Looks to be evenings, at best, for PVA glues. Epoxy, urea or hide otherwise. Epoxy is just so spendy when gluing up a benchtop from 4/4 rough stock.

[Kevin Jenness]

Try Titebond Extend. Or dilute what you have with water by 5%, that will buy some time.

Frequently Asked Questions
Can Titebond Wood Glues be thinned?


Most of our water-based wood glues can be thinned with water up to 5% by weight or by volume. Adding more than 5% water to our glues will decrease the bond strength.

[Mel Fulks]

Lot of guys don't like Titebond 3. The Weldwood cures faster with high temps. But I haven't seen the quick set you
mentioned. You can use the Weldwood a little thinner than what the directions say. For "flat gluing " ( big areas) I was
taught to mix it to where glue would imediately drip from lifted stir stick ,NOT stream. Then let it set about 10 minutes
before spreading. Apply to both surfaces.

[Phil Gaudio]

System Three T-88 Epoxy might be worth investigating. Very long open time at room temp: might be just enough open time at your temp.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Years ago when I glued up the white ash top for my bench I went out and bought a gallon of Titebond Extend. The extra open time removed a lot of the stress of spreading and then clamping the 8 foot long sections.

[Curt Putnam]

I've used TB II Extend and found that the time extension was minimal. I really think that it is the humidity difference. 10 - 15% RH plays havoc with PVA glues. Only Epoxy will operate at > 90° and still provide a reasonable open time. I'll just have to do the mass laminations at night when the temps are down and the humidity is up.

[ken hatch]

Curt,

While hot hide glue wouldn't work for your outdoor project you might be surprised at how well in would work for your chop glue up if for no other reason than with hot hide glue you can do "rub' joints with little or no need for clamps. For a rub joint all you do is coat both pieces of wood with hot hide glue, put the two pieces together and move them until you start to feel resistance then make sure they are in final position. Clamping is optional kinda like wearing belts and suspenders.

ken

[chris carter]

How big is the space you are working in? I suspect low humidity is a bigger deal than high temp. Most folks already have a humidifier sitting around somewhere - especially if you've ever had kids. I wonder if just running a humidifier on high for an hour would generate enough humidity for the PVA glue.

[Curt Putnam]

Chris my shop is a pretty standard 2 car garage (actually no car). I agree that the low RH is the issue. I'll just have to glue in the am or pm when the temp is down and the RH is up.

[Curt Putnam]

Ken - maybe one of these days. What is the open/working time for the hot stuff? I'm thinking it is less than 5 minutes at 70° and reasonable humidity.

[Andrew Seemann]

I've used TB II Extend and found that the time extension was minimal. I really think that it is the humidity difference. 10 - 15% RH plays havoc with PVA glues. Only Epoxy will operate at > 90° and still provide a reasonable open time. I'll just have to do the mass laminations at night when the temps are down and the humidity is up.

I typically use Titebond 1, although I sometimes have trouble with it in the winter here. When it gets below 0F outside, the indoor humidity in the shop can get so low that thin layers of glue can dry before I get joints together. I find that I need to work quickly and put the glue on in thick beads rather than spread it out. It seems to spread well enough when the joints are put together. Liquid hide glue also is a good alternative if I have a complex glue up.

[ken hatch]

Ken - maybe one of these days. What is the open/working time for the hot stuff? I'm thinking it is less than 5 minutes at 70° and reasonable humidity.

Curt,

Hot hide glue has a very short open time, you can do rub joints. There are ways to extend that time if needed but mostly it is just learning how to assemble the project so there is little or no need for clamps. Remember the "old guys" didn't have racks of clamps to work with.

ken

[chris carter]

Ken - maybe one of these days. What is the open/working time for the hot stuff? I'm thinking it is less than 5 minutes at 70° and reasonable humidity.

I use 192 hide glue and you only get about 5 minutes or so under normal conditions. That sounds like a ridiculously short amount of time compared to a PVA glue. However, you don’t have the same kind of glue spillage or squeeze out issues. With a PVA glue you generally want to avoid glue all over the place because it’s a pain to clean up and it grossly affects finish. But hide glue cleans up very easily and cleanly and doesn’t affect finish much. So with a PVA glue you try and get the right amount in the right spot, but with hide glue you just slather it on the joint as fast as you can and not really worry too much about it getting all over the place because once it starts to firm up you can just peel the excess right off cleanly. Or you can take it off with a warm wet cloth if it sets up too much. So although you have a very short working time, you can also apply the glue to your work considerably faster without fear.

This all said, you can add salt to extend the working time. Sometimes I add a small non-measured amount just to give me a little more time – like insurance. I have also carefully measured out 15% by weight (supposedly this is as high as you are supposed to go, if you believe everything you read) just to see what would happen and I easily had 30 minutes of working time.

[James Pallas]

Sometimes we get what we ask for. I’ve been around long enough to remember when it was HHG or white glue. People complained about HHG being messy and too fast. White glue was too slow. You could also see poorly fitted joints with a glue line with white glue. The industry listened. Quicker set up to get it out of the clamps faster a little color to help with glue lines. I have pieces in my home that are now 50 years old at least. White glue or HHG. Haven’t had a glue failure yet on those things. I do think that the white glue of the past had a little more open time. I did work in the desert for many years too. Just don’t stress yourself by building for complicated glue ups and things will be fine.

[Curt Putnam]

I use 192 hide glue and you only get about 5 minutes or so under normal conditions. That sounds like a ridiculously short amount of time compared to a PVA glue. However, you don’t have the same kind of glue spillage or squeeze out issues. With a PVA glue you generally want to avoid glue all over the place because it’s a pain to clean up and it grossly affects finish. But hide glue cleans up very easily and cleanly and doesn’t affect finish much. So with a PVA glue you try and get the right amount in the right spot, but with hide glue you just slather it on the joint as fast as you can and not really worry too much about it getting all over the place because once it starts to firm up you can just peel the excess right off cleanly. Or you can take it off with a warm wet cloth if it sets up too much. So although you have a very short working time, you can also apply the glue to your work considerably faster without fear.

This all said, you can add salt to extend the working time. Sometimes I add a small non-measured amount just to give me a little more time – like insurance. I have also carefully measured out 15% by weight (supposedly this is as high as you are supposed to go, if you believe everything you read) just to see what would happen and I easily had 30 minutes of working time.

Since my current problem is gluing up 7' x 4.25" sticks for a benchtop, I don't see me getting enough glue on in time - much less rubbing. If I am lucky, I'll be able to get to doing that shortly while we still have cool nights. There is also the worry about spills on a benchtop. I routinely dump my coffee where it is not supposed to be - which is why I drofted away from the ligquid stuff for the top.

[ken hatch]

Since my current problem is gluing up 7' x 4.25" sticks for a benchtop, I don't see me getting enough glue on in time - much less rubbing. If I am lucky, I'll be able to get to doing that shortly while we still have cool nights. There is also the worry about spills on a benchtop. I routinely dump my coffee where it is not supposed to be - which is why I drofted away from the ligquid stuff for the top.

Curt,

I just finished a big glue up, not as big as your workbench slab but pretty big. I've also made a few work bench slabs using hot hide glue here in the desert of Arizona as well as a couple using one of the Tite Bonds. The hot hide glue slabs were a lot less stressful for several reasons. One of the big ones is the slats do not move around once the glue sets.

To do a big glue up I will coat each surface with hot water with a quick wipe to dry just before applying glue with a big hot hide glue brush (Tools for Working Wood sells them). Coat both sides with a heavy hand place them together and in alignment when they feel solid put on however many clamps that will make you comfortable and walk away. After a bit clean up the excess glue. Repeat until you run out of slats or it looks like a slab.

As always with anything wood, YMMV.

ken

[Thomas L Carpenter]

I have been switching to Old Brown Glue (oldbrownglue.com) more and more in my old age because of the long open time. I can't seem to assemble things fast enough these days for Titebond. Takes longer to dry but I find I'm not in that much of a hurry any more so I usually let things dry overnight.

[chris carter]

Since my current problem is gluing up 7' x 4.25" sticks for a benchtop, I don't see me getting enough glue on in time - much less rubbing. If I am lucky, I'll be able to get to doing that shortly while we still have cool nights. There is also the worry about spills on a benchtop. I routinely dump my coffee where it is not supposed to be - which is why I drofted away from the ligquid stuff for the top.


I just built a split-top roubo and used Elmer's Glue All for everything. It's plenty strong and has a very long open time, way longer than TB3. You might buy a bottle and experiment with it to see how it does in the low humidity, but it surely will do better than TB3. I use it for all indoor stuff when I don't use hide glue. It is not as resistant to water + heat as TB3, but much more resistant than hide glue. That said, I honestly don't think spilling coffee on a bench laminated with hide glue is going to be a problem. It's not THAT easy to undo hide glue, and even if the coffee did temporarily weaken it, as soon as it cooled down it would be good as new (and your coffee isn't going to penetrate more than an eighth of an inch max anyway). I think the bigger issue with laminating the top with hide glue is that hide glue is rather brittle and I could potentially see an issue where banging shock waves through it all day long could potentially cause fracturing. I did briefly consider hide glue for the top lamination before abandoning it for Glue All as a safe bet.

[Mel Fulks]

Elmers White Glue had a good run, in a lot of shops. But it is the "creepiest" of all glues. Joints shift. I don't know if
that is permanent ,or if after "full cure" it settles down.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't know if
that is permanent ,or if after "full cure" it settles down.[/QUOTE]
I remember now, after a few days the white glue does not move anymore

[Curt Putnam]

Had a contractor buddy, also a very fine woodworker, whose ultimate expression of assembly disgust was to exclaim that it had been put together with Elmer's Glue-All.

[Curt Putnam]

Well, maybe not so fast. It is 97°F with 17% RH humidity, so I ran a little test. Took some Titebond LHG and set some on scrap. 2 minutes later I used that to coat a 2nd piece by rubbing them together. I let them sit for 2 minutes and then put together to test for tack and then set apart and open. I continued this for 10 minutes by which time it was evident the glue was getting impatient. I then left the 2 pieces together (not clamped). I could still adjust the parts at 15 minutes - at which point I clamped them. So, if they are glued in the morning, a gallon of OBG or TB may be in my future.

[mike stenson]

Well, maybe not so fast. It is 97°F with 17% RH humidity, so I ran a little test. Took some Titebond LHG and set some on scrap. 2 minutes later I used that to coat a 2nd piece by rubbing them together. I let them sit for 2 minutes and then put together to test for tack and then set apart and open. I continued this for 10 minutes by which time it was evident the glue was getting impatient. I then left the 2 pieces together (not clamped). I could still adjust the parts at 15 minutes - at which point I clamped them. So, if they are glued in the morning, a gallon of OBG or TB may be in my future.

Got portable swamp cooler? It can (in our climates) make a pretty major difference in a short(ish) amount of time

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wSDvMzs/0/2cd45011/L/i-wSDvMzs-L.jpghttps://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3LNH2Kp/0/c287974b/L/i-3LNH2Kp-L.jpg

[ken hatch]

Got portable swamp cooler? It can (in our climates) make a pretty major difference in a short(ish) amount of time

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wSDvMzs/0/2cd45011/L/i-wSDvMzs-L.jpghttps://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3LNH2Kp/0/c287974b/L/i-3LNH2Kp-L.jpg

Mike,

It works until Monsoon season :).

The difference is known as wet bulb temp or the maximum cooling by evaporation. Back in the day I could ride my motorcycle across Death Valley in the Summer and would get the giggles because I could feel the heat boiling around me (115F or above) but I would be sitting in a pocket of cold air (60F to 70F) using nothing but proper clothing, a little water, and good technique. Tank to tank in comfort, I put many miles on the motorcycle that way. It didn't work as well when I would ride to Lafayette for some Gumbo but did work some even then.

ken

[mike stenson]

Mike,

It works until Monsoon season :).

The difference is known as wet bulb temp or the maximum cooling by evaporation. Back in the day I could ride my motorcycle across Death Valley in the Summer and would get the giggles because I could feel the heat boiling around me (115F or above) but I would be sitting in a pocket of cold air (60F to 70F) using nothing but proper clothing, a little water, and good technique. Tank to tank in comfort, I put many miles on the motorcycle that way. It didn't work as well when I would ride to Lafayette for some Gumbo but did work some even then.

ken

After 25 years of living here, and only 2 years of having a/c, I know we'll how to make swamps work, even during monsoon;). It's all about air exchange.

In this case, it'd both lower the temp but more importantly raise rh, thus extending open time.

[Curt Putnam]

I have this innate fear of swamps in rhee shop. Although, intellectually I know why it works and is safe, emotionally I can't get over blowing water vapor over my tools. I do have a portable A.C which seems to generate as much heat as cooling. Are not swamps large items that have to sit outside and blow in?

[ken hatch]

I have this innate fear of swamps in rhee shop. Although, intellectually I know why it works and is safe, emotionally I can't get over blowing water vapor over my tools. I do have a portable A.C which seems to generate as much heat as cooling. Are not swamps large items that have to sit outside and blow in?


Curt,

Check your local Home Depot. They usually carry all sizes of portable swamp coolers. They work and i had a mid sized one in my shop for several years but the space/efficiency trade off was not worth the space. Of course YMMV.

ken

[mike stenson]

I have this innate fear of swamps in rhee shop. Although, intellectually I know why it works and is safe, emotionally I can't get over blowing water vapor over my tools. I do have a portable A.C which seems to generate as much heat as cooling. Are not swamps large items that have to sit outside and blow in?

The current portable I have is 42" high (on it's wheels), 28" wide and 18" deep and easily pushes against a wall. It cools about 1300sq ft without having to do things like toss ice blocks in the water.

As you can see, it's not huge. It can be connected via hose, but it also has a 14gal reservoir. It generally lives behind the door. Having one that's not appropriately sized (in CFM) does make it a waste of space. After 25 years of having swamp cooled houses/shops, the only rust I have on anything came from a roof leak while my tools were in storage last year. The Rh is typically lower than anyplace on th east coast.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-KLtFbZ6/0/fc7123f3/L/i-KLtFbZ6-L.jpg

[ken hatch]

The current portable I have is 42" high (on it's wheels), 28" wide and 18" deep and easily pushes against a wall. It cools about 1300sq ft without having to do things like toss ice blocks in the water.

As you can see, it's not huge. It can be connected via hose, but it also has a 14gal reservoir. It generally lives behind the door. Having one that's not appropriately sized (in CFM) does make it a waste of space. After 25 years of having swamp cooled houses/shops, the only rust I have on anything came from a roof leak while my tools were in storage last year. The Rh is typically lower than anyplace on th east coast.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-KLtFbZ6/0/fc7123f3/L/i-KLtFbZ6-L.jpg

Mike,

Love your shop dog, ain't nothing in life as good as a good dog.

Mine was a little larger than yours but then even yours would take up too much space, Right now I'm finishing up a project in the back garden just so I have room to work, I know the real answer is to get rid of "stuff" but...

ken

[mike stenson]

Mike,

Love your shop dog, ain't nothing in life as good as a good dog.

Mine was a little larger than yours but then even yours would take up too much space, Right now I'm finishing up a project in the back garden just so I have room to work, I know the real answer is to get rid of "stuff" but...

ken

Yea, but this thing is still much more efficient, and smaller than the cooler that finally rusted out (bought in 2000 I think). Basically instead of having one cooling media, this has 3, so it's really much better by far. Eventually I'll install a cooler outside on a pad. I gotta get water plumbed out there first as I actually have the cooler. Then this will be used for the porch ;)

FWIW, you should see the other side of the shop right now. I'm still just moving things around to make space to work (and still working on getting insulation installed).

I'd contemplate a mini-split, but to do that I'd need to add another service entrance, and I really do not want to go there.