Getting PMV-11 Sharp?

[Mike Allen1010]

I would appreciate any help/suggestions about how to get PMV-11 chisels/plane blades sharp.

I don't know anything about types of steel, metallurgy etc., but I would like to think I have some appreciation for sharp edge tools. I've always been a little bit obsessive about getting the sharpest possible edge on chisels, plane blades etc., However I have no great analytical method for determining sharpness – for me I go by dragging my finger over the cutting edge and the efficacy of the cutting action working wood tells the tale.

For reference the primary angle on both chisels and plane blades is 25°. Secondary bevel angle for plane blades is 35° and for chisels 30°. I'm not exactly sure why two different secondary bevel angles, just the current state-of-the-art in my never ending chase for sharp.

Over the last 30 years I've gone through more sets of sharpening stones than I can remember. Currently I use three grades of Shapton Pro water stones and occasionally strop with green compound, one straight grain maple, the other leather, shiny side up.

I'm able to get 01 steel and Japanese edge tools more than sharp enough to satisfy me right off the stones. My frustration is my PMV edge tools never feel as sharp, I think regardless of whether I strop or not. The PMV tools work fine and seem to hold their edge for a long time, but when I'm looking for that final feathery thin final shaving from a finish plane on a show surface, feels like I'm not 100% there. Maybe my perception is off and given the imprecise nature of determining sharpness, maybe this is all in my head. Regardless, I would very much appreciate any advice and suggestions for my fellow Creekers about how you get optimal sharpness from your PMV tools. Thanks in advance for your help!

Best, Mike

[David Bassett]

I would appreciate any help/suggestions about how to get PMV-11 chisels/plane blades sharp. ...

David Weaver, on another forum, recently reported experiments with PM-V11. He found he could get it satisfactorily sharp with a Washita and a leather strop. I don't remember exactly what he did and if it differed from his HCS routine, but he was satisfied with the result and impressed with the wear resistance.

I'd imagine a little more work than you're used to would get you where you want to be. Good luck.

[ken hatch]

Mike,

Thought it was just me. Maybe not. Sorry I can't help.

ken

[Rafael Herrera]

Mike, I looked into this in the past. PMV11 steel is harder than O1 or vintage carbon steel. As a consequence it requires the right sharpening media and technique to get the keenest edge. An internet search will reveal plenty of information.

[Jim Matthews]

Veritas specs their PMV-11quite hard.

Do you hollow grind the bevel?

[glenn bradley]

One thing I like about PM-v11 is that I sharpen it just like anything else. I use DMT diamond stones up to about 8000 grit among other things.

[David Bassett]

David Weaver, on another forum, ...

I went searching to see if I could pull a useful quote or two and found I was wrong about when and may have been wrong about the Washita. This was going on last summer and for many of his experiments he was sharpening with diamond grit (5um and 1um at different times). Certainly diamond in that range works (I don't see why it has to be loose, there are PSA sheets and the plates of course too.) The more aggressive abrasives in synthetic, e.g. Japanese water stones and Crystolon & India oil stones, should also work.

I still think novaculite should work on PM-V11, just more slowly, and thought David reached that conclusion too. But, so far, all I find is vague statements, some I read to say not so good and others saying it works fine with his Washita. There's probably something in his experiments and rambling descriptions that's conclusive and hopefully somebody remembers! Sadly, I clearly don't.

Still, good luck.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I hollow grind on a CBN 180 grit wheel, then medium and ultra-fine Spyderco stones. As I am a woodworker and not a sharpening hobbyist, sometimes I forget the material in what I am sharpening, so yes, on ocassion, I have used a Washita, then strop to sharpen.

Tool steels are O1, PMV-11 and a few A2 (dislike it, but I ain't going to toss it). The vintage stuff I have I won't speculate on composition. As I said I ain't a sharpening hobbyist and sharpen tools when needed and as quickly as I can.

[Warren Mickley]

Mike, I looked into this in the past. PMV11 steel is harder than O1 or vintage carbon steel. As a consequence it requires the right sharpening media and technique to get the keenest edge. An internet search will reveal plenty of information.

I don't know where you looked, but pmv11 is harder than vintage steel only if you temper it less than you temper the other steels. O1 can be harder or softer than Lee Valley's pmv11 tools, depending on the temper. Japanese steel and cast steel are also capable of high hardness.

Stainless steels like pmv11 are abrasion resistant. That is why they are harder to sharpen, not because they are harder.

[John Keeton]

I am not anywhere near a sharpening guru, but I do own a couple of PMV-11 blades. I just use a scary sharp board with sandpaper, which works for my limited needs. But, as to the discussion here I saw this from Fine Tools -

[Larry Frank]

The mystique of PMV11 has been interesting with so much guessing. It would be no problem to get the hardness of a blade. However, this is a bulk hardness and the hardness of the carbide in it are much higher.

I often wish that I was still working and had access to the tools there such as hardness testing, light microscope, and a scanning electron microscope. With the SEM you could analyze the carbide and better understand the structure.

Pretty amazing that I have not found this information yet.

[Jim Matthews]

I've got a replacement blade for both a single blade traditional (small) wooden smoother and a double blade wooden Jack plane. They're made from Carpenter XHP steel and hardened to the same spec as PMV-11.

The most surprising aspect of these blades is how sharp they stay, even after heavy use.

The small block plane was pressed into fitting duty with plywood panels.

After final assembly, I prepared the blade for resharpening only to find it still sliced paper.

I get better results with this steel than with very expensive Japanese irons, without the involved prep or dedicated water stones.

As a long time adherent to O1 steel on Oil stones, I see these sintered steels as a game changer, well worth the trouble.

[Derek Cohen]

I would appreciate any help/suggestions about how to get PMV-11 chisels/plane blades sharp.

I don't know anything about types of steel, metallurgy etc., but I would like to think I have some appreciation for sharp edge tools. I've always been a little bit obsessive about getting the sharpest possible edge on chisels, plane blades etc., However I have no great analytical method for determining sharpness – for me I go by dragging my finger over the cutting edge and the efficacy of the cutting action working wood tells the tale.

For reference the primary angle on both chisels and plane blades is 25°. Secondary bevel angle for plane blades is 35° and for chisels 30°. I'm not exactly sure why two different secondary bevel angles, just the current state-of-the-art in my never ending chase for sharp.

Over the last 30 years I've gone through more sets of sharpening stones than I can remember. Currently I use three grades of Shapton Pro water stones and occasionally strop with green compound, one straight grain maple, the other leather, shiny side up.

I'm able to get 01 steel and Japanese edge tools more than sharp enough to satisfy me right off the stones. My frustration is my PMV edge tools never feel as sharp, I think regardless of whether I strop or not. The PMV tools work fine and seem to hold their edge for a long time, but when I'm looking for that final feathery thin final shaving from a finish plane on a show surface, feels like I'm not 100% there. Maybe my perception is off and given the imprecise nature of determining sharpness, maybe this is all in my head. Regardless, I would very much appreciate any advice and suggestions for my fellow Creekers about how you get optimal sharpness from your PMV tools. Thanks in advance for your help!

Best, Mike

Mike, I use 30 degrees for all bench chisels and BD bench plane blades. These are hollow ground (as Tony does) on an 8" 180 grit CBN wheel, and then my first choice set of 1000 Pro Shapton and 6000/13000 Sigma. Wire off on green compound on hardwood. The edges are as sharp as any out there.

https://i.postimg.cc/br4xy9Jd/Ultimate-Grinding-Sharpening-Set-Up-html-71b2c2d0.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Hazelwood]

Not really sure why you are having issues with the V11. Shapton stones should be able to abrade it effectively enough. I wonder if there is some issue with retaining the wire edge? Very light forward passes, alternating bevel to back, raising the angle on the bevel side just a hair, is the way to thin and hopefully remove the wire edge. Sharpness, as gauged by my fingertip rubbing over the edge, increases noticeably after several rounds of this.

Other than that I would double check the geometry, e.g. making sure there isn't something like a back bevel or persistent wear bevel. Make sure the secondary bevel is kept very small.

I would say that I prefer very hard stones like oil stones, especially for the final step of sharpening. I have a set of Shaptons and they are good for big jobs but for normal sharpening I don't like the edges as much as those I get from oil stones. I think a lot of it has to do with the hardness, a translucent ark is like a piece of glass. The shaptons seem a bit rubbery in comparison, even though they are fairly hard compared to other synthetic waterstones. This is my experience with freehand sharpening at least, it may not apply if you use a guide. Anyways, for wear resistant steels like V11 I find a Spyderco ultrafine ceramic stone provides a similar feel to the arkansas stone and a gives nice edge.

[William Fretwell]

Mike, your secondary bevel is very different from the primary bevel, the primary bevel becomes redundant. My planes are 25 degrees, sometimes I use a micro bevel of 1-2 degrees, mostly 01 some D2 and one A2. Thick bevel down blades are huge work without hollow grinding, that alone hinders progress. Carpenter steel, Elmax etc. get sharp and keep it but not as sharp as 01. Nothing gets as sharp and keeps it as long as my Barr chisels, 01, hand tempered.
Modern steels are more work, I have grown to dislike them. They all need frequent sharpening for optimum results, I prefer to sharpen 01 more easily a bit more often. For rough work modern steels have their use but I finish with 01.
So don't expect too much of modern steels and you won't be disappointed.

[Jim Koepke]

The PM-v11 blades in my spokeshave and shooting plane from Lee Valley are a bit more work but sharpen quite fine on my Arkansas stones.

They can shave hair, slice paper or pull a fine shaving off of softwood end grain.

Who could ask for anything more?

432530

This was a surprise. Using the brush to sweep away some dust off the sole cut some of the bristles.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Mike, your secondary bevel is very different from the primary bevel, the primary bevel becomes redundant. My planes are 25 degrees, sometimes I use a micro bevel of 1-2 degrees, mostly 01 some D2 and one A2. Thick bevel down blades are huge work without hollow grinding, that alone hinders progress. Carpenter steel, Elmax etc. get sharp and keep it but not as sharp as 01. Nothing gets as sharp and keeps it as long as my Barr chisels, 01, hand tempered.
Modern steels are more work, I have grown to dislike them. They all need frequent sharpening for optimum results, I prefer to sharpen 01 more easily a bit more often. For rough work modern steels have their use but I finish with 01.
So don't expect too much of modern steels and you won't be disappointed.

William,

I couldn't agree more, especially the "...all need frequent sharpening..." part. So the modern steels will let you work longer with an inferior cutter, big whoop.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

William,

I couldn't agree more, especially the "...all need frequent sharpening..." part. So the modern steels will let you work longer with an inferior cutter, big whoop.

ken

Ken, don't lump all "modern steel" into the same category. Steels like A2 and D2 have large carbides. Powder Metal (PM) steels have the finest grain around, probably finer than O1. PM-V11 gets as sharp, or sharper than O1. And holds the edge 4x as long. That is fact. Sharpening PM-V11 is as quick as O1 when you do it right. I do it all the time :)

It may be different for those working with softer timbers, but when you work with hard and abrasive woods, then the durability of these blades is appreciated.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

"Powder Metal (PM) steels have the finest grain around, probably finer than O1."

Is this what the marketing department says, or is there real documentation.

" PM-V11 gets as sharp, or sharper than O1. And holds the edge 4x as long. That is fact."

Documentation?

When I try to duplicate your tests, my chisels always come out better, by a lot.

[John Keeton]

Warren, this may be relevant -

(http://www.pm-v11.com/TestingSharpening.aspx)http://pm-v11.com/

[Derek Cohen]

When I try to duplicate your tests, my chisels always come out better, by a lot.

Documentation of your results, Warren?

As for PM-V11 test results of surface and longevity, ask David Weaver. He posted them on WoodCentral. You know this, so why ask the question?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

That's hilarious.

It's like one of those 1970's Kung Fu movies where just looking at a sword shaved off your eyebrows.

[Tony Zaffuto]

"Powder Metal (PM) steels have the finest grain around, probably finer than O1."

Is this what the marketing department says, or is there real documentation.

" PM-V11 gets as sharp, or sharper than O1. And holds the edge 4x as long. That is fact."

Documentation?

When I try to duplicate your tests, my chisels always come out better, by a lot.










Warren,

I live and have my manufacturing plant in DuBois, PA. If you wish to visit a powder metal part manufacturing plant when Covid19 wanes, let me know. 70 to 75% of my output goes into new automobiles, and the only stuff for tools are parts I make go to Black & Decker/Dewalt.

The Lee Valley process is proprietary, however the material can be determined. But knowing the material does not mean a plant can make the parts, however, as how it is compacted and then sintered (baked) determines the output (much as what you said earlier in this thread). Do a bit of reading about how CPM and carbide materials are made and you'll begin to get a bit of background. Kennametal, among a number of other carbide cutter manufacturers, used to produce the majority of their output in Latrobe, PA, though that ended in the early 90's.

Rob Lee and I have spoken through the years and he suggested that I might want to test some of his products: I declined as more validity would accrue through woodworkers that know far more than I. However, I have purchased a number of LV tools that use the PMV-11 material (several plane blades and a chisel) and the performance is superb.

T.Z.

[Warren Mickley]

Documentation of your results, Warren?

As for PM-V11 test results of surface and longevity, ask David Weaver. He posted them on WoodCentral. You know this, so why ask the question?

Regards from Perth

Derek

David Weaver's results were between 8 and 30 percent longer for pmv11 than O1. It was not the "4X as long" that you claimed earlier today. I did one of David's tests using a 1915 plane iron; I quit when I had bested his pmv11 longevity. I reported this on Woodcentral and you, Derek, responded to my post, so I assume you read it.

[Mike Allen1010]

Veritas specs their PMV-11quite hard.

Do you hollow grind the bevel?

Yes Jim I hollow ground the primary bevel at 25° on an 8 inch diameter wheel. Based on some of the very helpful feedback here, I'm thinking I will re-grind the primary bevel and change from a my current 35° secondary bevel angle to approximately a 30° bevel angle or something slightly less. I'm hearing that based on the grain structure of PMV 11 steel it's more likely than 01 to be able to maintain a sharp edge at at the slower secondary bevel angle.

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for help with getting PMV irons sharp. I'm especially grateful that people with real knowledge and expertise in this area like Warren, Derek and Tony took the time to share their insights and suggestions. My primary takeaways are:

* Based on the fundamental metallurgy of PMV and test results from Lee Valley, for things like sharpness, edge durability etc. and the practical experience of folks here on SMC, seems to me PMV has real potential to provide a sharp, durable edge and I just need to do a better job of figuring out how to achieve that.

* I do hollow ground primary bevel on 8 inch diameter abrasive wheel (sorry don't know the specific type/characteristics – it's the gray one). I'm going to change my secondary bevel angle from 35° to 30°.

* I'm going to experiment with using a "harder" final finishing Waterstone and strapping final wire edge on maple with green compound. I currently use series of three Shapton Pro Waterstone's - yellow, purple and tan. I can't remember the specific grits but I think the final is something like 30,000. It is noticeably "soft ". I think I have a SypderCo finishing stone that's a lot harder.

I very much appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions. To me this thread is a great example of the benefits of the CM SMC community – credible, fact based feedback from experts with hands-on experience. I'm grateful!

I'll let you know if I make any progress.

Cheers, Mike

[Thomas Crawford]

Anecdotal evidence from me:

I have the bevel up jointer and jack planes from Veritas. One PM-V11 and one A2 blade. I was stupid and tried to put a radius on them and jacked them all up so I had to take them both to the grinder and start from scratch. I just have one of the cheap 2-speed grinders from woodcraft they used to sell with a blue norton 50 grit wheel.

I ground them both to ~30 degrees on the grinder, then used 1000 - 4000 - 8000 grit norton waterstones plus leather strop (micro-bevel 33ish). I can say it took half the effort and time to do the PM-V11 vs the A2. Both take as thin of shavings as you would want. I'm going to order a couple more PM-V11 and throw the A2 in storage.

[ken hatch]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for help with getting PMV irons sharp. I'm especially grateful that people with real knowledge and expertise in this area like Warren, Derek and Tony took the time to share their insights and suggestions. My primary takeaways are:

* Based on the fundamental metallurgy of PMV and test results from Lee Valley, for things like sharpness, edge durability etc. and the practical experience of folks here on SMC, seems to me PMV has real potential to provide a sharp, durable edge and I just need to do a better job of figuring out how to achieve that.

* I do hollow ground primary bevel on 8 inch diameter abrasive wheel (sorry don't know the specific type/characteristics – it's the gray one). I'm going to change my secondary bevel angle from 35° to 30°.

* I'm going to experiment with using a "harder" final finishing Waterstone and strapping final wire edge on maple with green compound. I currently use series of three Shapton Pro Waterstone's - yellow, purple and tan. I can't remember the specific grits but I think the final is something like 30,000. It is noticeably "soft ". I think I have a SypderCo finishing stone that's a lot harder.

I very much appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions. To me this thread is a great example of the benefits of the CM SMC community – credible, fact based feedback from experts with hands-on experience. I'm grateful!

I'll let you know if I make any progress.

Cheers, Mike

Mike,

Please do. I've a number of PM-11 cutters and chisels in my shop that are gathering dust mostly because I couldn't see any advantage over my Japanese #1 white paper chisels or the laminated blue paper plane cutters.

ken

[Will Blick]

Its very tricky matching a metal type to the ideal stone. Sure any will work, but stones characteristics really do work much better with a given metal type. I find the Shapton HR series stones work GREAT with PMV-11. On the LV web site, they suggest another brand which they sell...its possible they work well also. If someone is doing low volume, sandpaper, or diamond paste would also do well, assuming good technique... same true with stones... if that stone is not flat, u wont maximize sharpness, so always check with a good straight edge.

[les winter]

I use a medium India and a Dan's Hard Black Arkansas followed by a hard leather strop with the green stuff. My tools include A2 and PMV11 blades and chisels. I have used water stones in the past.

My input is that if you keep your micro bevels very narrow, the oil stone and strop combination works just fine. Not fast, but fine. I prefer raising a significant burr, so I probably get only 3-4 honings before I need to grind a new hollow. I find PMV11 easier to sharpen than A2 particularly with regard to removing the burr. Both get very sharp.

[Jim Matthews]

PM with long winded explanification sent.

[Derek Cohen]

Although David Weaver does not post here any longer, he reads the forum, and will post elsewhere his comments. This is an extract from the post he made these about this thread ...

I suppose there will always be fans of carbon steel - I think carbon steel is still the best choice for rough work as I'm convinced it nicks the least easily and when it does, grinding anything like that out is twice as fast as pretty much anything else on the market.


But for planing in clean wood, there isn't a carbon steel iron on earth that will match V11 or XHP (Edit to explain that XHP is a steel that David believes is the same as PM-V11] if they are made to even remotely similar spec.

When comparing numbers from one board to the next, to have any relevant comparison, you'd need to use both irons on the same board, and probably rotating back and forth.


What I found in tests (since it's quickly forgotten) is not a longevity difference of 10 or 30% in long grain, rather a factor of 1.8 to slightly greater than 2 in several tests.
In the two full tests that I did head to head with my O1 iron (which would outlast probably 99.9% of stock stanley irons), the footage was 1570 feet for V11 to 780 for O1. when I made an xhp iron, first iron that I made - 4046 feet XHP, 2224 feet with my O1 iron.


I also used a ward plane just to test edge properties with less than optimal sharpening and footages were about 20-25% less than my O1 irons (still love ward irons, but using them side by side, it's undeniable that even good O1 has enough alloying in it to make a difference).


Regards from Perth

Derek