How important are rulers in cabinet making?

[Gabriel Marusic]

My dad is a hobbyist woodworker that primarily makes furniture for around the house and I recently decided I want to join in the hobby with him. As our first project I decided I want us to build cabinetry for my laundry area (selfish, I know) and in spending time on the forums and youtube to do research I'm experiencing a bit of information overload. As I'm gearing up on this project I've been upgrading and investing in tools to work on the project but I need to pump the brakes a bit as it's adding up quickly and I'm trying to figure out what's actually necessary.

One part I'm stuck on is measuring instruments, and what I actually need for the job. I'm a bit pedantic with details and don't want to slop something together. I've got a fastcap tape measure that I like, a 6" machinist square and a 12" incra ruler which I thought would be fine until I started doing some research. So in reading up on measuring it sounds like a lot of people are just using the tape measure for rough cuts and then rulers and story boards for everything else? Can I get by with what I have, or should I invest in rulers. If so, what sizes would I need? I think my skillset will be a greater margin of error than any measuring device but I probably don't need to compound things.

Apologies for the very basic question, the amount of information we have at our disposal these days makes for a ton of consideration.

[Ben Grefe]

If you're just getting started then a quality combination square (https://www.amazon.com/iGaging-Combination-Square-Steel-Precision/dp/B01MRAANT9/) and tape measure will do 99% of what you need. Maybe 99.9%.

I use a Milwaukee tape measure for almost all of my measurement work in my shop, even through I have decades of accumulated measuring/layout devices. Get a cheap layout knife too, although for cabinet making it's even better to plan out all of your cuts, set the fence once and then just plow through material. Being 1/32 off isn't that big of a deal if ALL of the boards/sheets at that length are 1/32 off.

Layout tools are the kind of thing you can use forever. They *shouldn't* go bad (tape measures do get beat up, but squares/guides/etc shouldn't). Buy a quality one and use it, don't go wild before figuring out what styles you like.

[Philipp Jaindl]

To be honest you can get away with just a Tape Measure for the vast majority of things though a Steel Ruler is very handy to have in many applications. Same thing goes with Squares a regular one will do most things fine though a Combination Square is one tool i definetly wouldnt want to miss anymore.

Personally, Tape Measure, Steel Rule(300mm) and a Combination Square is all i use and so far i never needed anything else.

Whats far more important is that you use one tool and stick with it i.e. dont use 3 different tape measures or rulers, 100mm on one Tape measure/ruler might read as 101 or 99,5 on others.

Marking Gauge, Knife and Mechnical Pencil are something you want to get aswell, the latter saving on having to resharpen Pencils all the time.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Not very.

I use a 16’ Stanley Tape measure because it doesn’t have 32nd markings. I use a a 6 and 12” Starrett combination square. That’s pretty much it. If I need a ruler function, the square does the trick. Oh, and a whole bunch of sharp pencils.

[Jim Becker]

I work exclusively with metal rules unless the need is longer than 1000mm/40" which represents my longest rule. I only us a tape for longer stuff or for quick and dirty checks. Squares, including combo and fixed also play an important role and I have them in various sizes including a little tiny one I got off a flea market table that sometimes is just the thing in a tight space.

[Richard Coers]

Technically speaking, you don't need any measuring device to build a cabinet. You can take a piece of wood and make a story stick. That can define all the major dimensions of the box to fit in the location. After that you just need to be consistent. If you mix different measuring devices, make sure they all match. I also prefer a 3/4 x16' tape. I hate the 1" tapes with the large crown. You have to tip those darned things over so much to get accurate.

[Tony Joyce]

Whats far more important is that you use one tool and stick with it i.e. don't use 3 different tape measures or rulers, 100mm on one Tape measure/ruler might read as 101 or 99,5 on others.

This is very sage advice.

[David Utterback]

I posted on the error I made by using a 24" drafting ruler for 30+ years. When I was putting a 2nd tape on my sawstop, the one I had ordered did not line up well with the existing one. It varied +/- 1/32 . When I checked the tapes with my go-to drafting rule, it did not agree with either of the two tapes. I then did interval measures along its length and it was off by more than 1/32" in a couple of places.

Of note, I would read the rule in widely different ways during actual use. Sometimes I would start well away from the end and even at times reading it backwards. Lesson learned: check all your measuring devices against each other. I learned my lesson 30+ years too late.

[Lee Schierer]

It doesn't matter what you use to measure. Just be sure to use the same instrument through out. As you can see from the above comments, various manufactured scales vary. As long as you stick with one device you will have no real issues. I normally use a Stanley 30 foot tape measure for any measurement over 12". For smaller more precise dimensions I use a 12" stainless steel rule which I have checked for agreement with my Stanley tape for 12". When measuring drill bits and other small objects I use my 6" HF digital calipers. Your can't go wrong for $17.99 unless you are a machinist.

[Bill Space]

Technically speaking, you don't need any measuring device to build a cabinet. You can take a piece of wood and make a story stick. That can define all the major dimensions of the box to fit in the location. After that you just need to be consistent. If you mix different measuring devices, make sure they all match. I also prefer a 3/4 x16' tape. I hate the 1" tapes with the large crown. You have to tip those darned things over so much to get accurate.

This^^^

When I want things to be exactly the same I cut a standard length piece for each dimension and use that as my reference when cutting all the pieces I need.

Works for me...generally I just use a standard measure to get close but do not trust myself to be repeatable that way. I also use a knife edge rather than a pencil to mark the cut point, but prefer to use my “standards” to set stops to position the pieces I will be cutting.

[Derek Cohen]

My dad is a hobbyist woodworker that primarily makes furniture for around the house and I recently decided I want to join in the hobby with him. As our first project I decided I want us to build cabinetry for my laundry area (selfish, I know) and in spending time on the forums and youtube to do research I'm experiencing a bit of information overload. As I'm gearing up on this project I've been upgrading and investing in tools to work on the project but I need to pump the brakes a bit as it's adding up quickly and I'm trying to figure out what's actually necessary.

One part I'm stuck on is measuring instruments, and what I actually need for the job. I'm a bit pedantic with details and don't want to slop something together. I've got a fastcap tape measure that I like, a 6" machinist square and a 12" incra ruler which I thought would be fine until I started doing some research. So in reading up on measuring it sounds like a lot of people are just using the tape measure for rough cuts and then rulers and story boards for everything else? Can I get by with what I have, or should I invest in rulers. If so, what sizes would I need? I think my skillset will be a greater margin of error than any measuring device but I probably don't need to compound things.

Apologies for the very basic question, the amount of information we have at our disposal these days makes for a ton of consideration.

Gabriel, this is an important topic. Many use their machines to dimension parts. That can work well, if the machines measure accurately and the same setting is used for all parts. The wrong way to go about dimensioning is to measure each part individually. Error will creep in inevitably. In hand tool woodworking, one learns to transfer measurement with a marking/cutting gauge, always do so from a reference side, and monitor this process. When you get into this type of thinking, you realise that tape measures are only for rough setting out, and steel rulers for fine tuning. The real measurements are generally made using the parts, themselves.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

These conversations are always valuable since we all tend to do things a little bit differently than each other. I returned the iGaging combination squares because the quality just wasn't that much better than something like a Swanson or an Empire from the BORG. PEC's hit the mark for me at about the same price point. The only Starrett's I have were gifted :o.

I put a small amount of effort into getting a set of rules and a tape that all matched and were consistent along their length. I certainly wouldn't want to fudge through with only a tape measure. As you noted, the tape is for roughing out things and rules and squares are for specifics. That doesn't mean you need to spend a ton. A set of these (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/rules/32568-stainless-steel-cabinetmakers-rules) for $35 (although some folks like them double sided and square ended at both ends) and one of these (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/tapes/32562-lee-valley-10-foot-tapes-for-cabinetmakers) for $7 (right to left because I am right handed) meet most of my needs during a build even though I have (Three Amigos reference) a plethora of other measuring and marking tools.

Trust me, everyone else's answers are right too. The best measuring tool for you is the one that let's you make accurate parts and saves you from do-overs and force-fits.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I have 12" rules with fine graduations that get used for anything they are large enough for. For larger stuff I use a tape measure. The rule is more convenient and probably more accurate.

But rulers and tapes are for what I call nominal dimensions, meaning a number off of a plan or that I pulled out of my head. These don't have to be incredibly accurate because they are just setting a baseline that other parts get fit to. There is a limit to how accurately you can mark from a ruler or tape, and some aspects of fine work require more precision.

Tools like marking gauges and techniques like transfer marking offer much more precision when required. Story sticks work great as well. These are low tech ways to get really accurate.

I also use dial indicators, calipers, and feeler gauges to measure small relative distances, like how much fatter is a tenon than the mortise I'm trying to fit it into, and after measuring I can use the same tools to adjust the machine setup to compensate.

Other times I just fit by trial and error, trimming a bit at a time and test fitting. This is inefficient but still effective.

So I really don't find the need for many rulers and tapes or for particularly fancy ones. I wouldn't at all mind having a 24" and 36" rule just to avoid wrangling the tape measure as often, but it's not been a priority.

[David Eisenhauer]

Even house build/remodel/repair projects that feature more power equipment use than hand tools do better when using stop blocks rather than measuring each individual piece. As for story stick use - "the new cabinet needs to be about waist high, right here (mark the vertical stick), it has to fit between the chair and the window, about this wide (mark the horizontal stick), the top shelf will hold books and the tallest book is this high (mark the stick for the top of the highest shelf), the shelf will be made with this thick material (mark the stick using a piece of the shelf material as a guide for marking the location of the bottom of the top shelf)", etc. Never used a tape for the entire thing, just set up two story sticks. The guys above are talking about marking the stick with a very thin "knife" cut rather than a pencil line. That thin knife cut line can always be found and transferred exactly to the material to be cut by use of a square and marking knife.

[johnny means]

I can go days without using anything but a combination square and a tape measure. The rest of my measuring implements are luxuries.

[Andrew Seemann]

I use a 12" Starrett 414-1 stainless rule for most dimensions 12" and less. I like it because it is easy to read. I hate to say it, but I have trouble discerning 1/32 and 1/64 graduations these days. Same reason I use pencil lines now rather than knife marks; a pencil line I can see is more useful than a knife mark I can't:)

I have a no-name 24" 4R rule that I occasionally use, but normally I use 16' Stanley tape measures for most work, I have close to a dozen in the shop and various tool boxes. I also have 6" and 12" Starrett combo squares and 6" Stanley try squares I use for that kind of work. I have some 6" 4R Starrett rules I use for small dimensions. I frequently use my 6" fractional dial caliper as well.

I am not one of those who believe you need to use the same rule or tape measure for a project. The entire point of standardization is that you can use any measuring instrument and it will match any other measuring instrument. If you have two tapes or rules that don't match, find out which one is right and throw away the wrong one:)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I use SS rulers and a Starrett tape to measure a lot. Recently I purchased a stainless steel center-finding ruler and I wonder why I waited so long. If I was just starting out, a good combination square would be my first purchase, followed by a good framing square, finally followed by a good steel straight edge. Note, good doesn't have to be extremely high priced, just accurate.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I find I turn to my 1991 folding yellow wooden Lufkin Red End extension rule probably more frequently than any other measuring tool in the shop. It can open up to 72" (which I rarely use), but best of all it has a metal depth gauge at the 1" – 6" end. The rule is very versatile for quick work, and for precise depth work to 1/32". Love that little thing. I think the contemporary ones are built more cheaply.

For highly precise work less than about 6" I have a dial caliper good to 0.001", and less if you interpolate. It's good for checking shaving thickness, dowel diameters, tenon thickness vs. mortise width, and dado or kerf widths and the like. I sometimes use it to transfer a measurement to my Veritas micro-adjust marking gauge.

To help me estimate how many shavings to take off when I need to fix wind, I have a set of 14 precision plastic shims in 0.0005", 0.001", 0.0015", 0.002", 0.003, 0.004", 0.005", etc. up to 0.030". The first five thicknesses are all I need for wind correction if a board has come off the jointer. I place a shim under the winding stick and that suggests the number of stop shavings I'll need. It's a little game I play to see if I can guess correctly. Thanks once again to David Charlesworth who showed me yet another way to get wrapped up in minutiae.

I would also describe my brand new router lift as a precision measuring instrument. I measure the cut on a sample piece with the caliper to see how many thou it's off, and then I can make that precise adjustment on the lift dial, usually in one try. What a luxury!

For mid-level precision I use a little thin 6" steel rule, and I use either the millimeter version and the inch rule, depending on how much math I want to do. Sixty-fourths can become head-spinning.

For design I have a Staedtler 12" drafting rule with a no-slip cork back, a three-sided architect's rule for scale drawings, and an ultra-cool, very smooth-running German compass I bought in 1973, which doubles as a spacer and lives in a hard plastic case (the company is Rotring, still in business). It's a relic from the past and a treasured instrument.

For measuring square in a cabinet I made up a set of four different lengths of sliding measuring sticks. I can check diagonals from about 8" to 45" or so with the set I have. I'll make a longer one if I ever need it. It's fun to do this completely without math or numbers of any kind!

I don't have a combination square (yet, but it's due in the mail some time soon!), but I sure do get a ton of use out of a 6" steel engineer's square. I'm constantly using it to check that I'm planing an edge square to a face or resetting the jointer fence or table saw blade after an angle setup. For larger square estimations I use a 12" plastic framing square, which seems accurate enough.

For angles I've been forced to use trigonometry, but I don't really mind. I do not own a protractor (again, yet! It's on the way), and when I needed to make six angle blocks for setting honing and polishing plane-iron angles, I confess to the community that I drew the angles on graph paper based on the tangent measure of the angle, and then cut out the paper to set my Crown sliding bevel gauge. Math is fun (and accurate), but it can be slow and I am looking forward to having a protractor head on a Starrett beam. Check's in the mail, David U.

Of course I always reach for my Home Depot tape measure! I am also known to hold up a part to the tape on my table saw rail. Why? Because it's there.

Does a straight edge count? I broke down last year and got a Starrett 24" (385-24). It is my reference for flat. I'm dreaming of making a trio of longer straight edges, but so far the need has not arisen.

Getting started in cabinet making? When I started it was all plywood and rabbet joinery, and the Lufkin, tape measure, and a middling try-square got the job done just fine, as I recall.

[Rod Sheridan]

It depends how you work.

For kitchen cabinets a tape is fine as long as you make all the important pieces the same length, doesn’t matter if all your cabinets are 1/64” shorter than desired.

The same isn’t true for joinery.

It also depends how you work, I tend to make components to a drawing and then assemble, steel rules and combination squares are needed in my case.

A story stick can also be used......Have fun......Rod

[Chris Fournier]

Purchase your tools as the need presents itself and you won't go wrong. Tape measures are for house building and rough break out in my shop. Once I get into the project I use steel rules. You don't know if this new hobby will stick (I hope that it does!) but I'd go easy to start. I'd spring for a quality combination square like a Starret or Mitutoyo. Look for used as there are great deals for top notch tools out there. I find a 6" hook rue to be invaluable on almost all projects. A good dial caliper will come soon enough and of course a trusty tape measure. Add as needed after this.

[Edwin Santos]

Speaking for myself and the kind of work I do, the rule and marking aids always at my side are:

1. 4" Starrett double square
2. 6" Shinwa steel rule, with markings on the short edge also
3. Woodpecker's Delve square (excellent for marking and all kinds of other little tricks)

I also use project specific story sticks, and it's nice to have a hook rule hanging on the wall for when measuring from outside edges. I reach for calipers sometimes also.

Lee Valley recently put out a product called the Veritas Layout Block. In one little extruded aluminum block, you have instant set-up dimensions for 1/8", 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and 1". I keep one on the Biesemeyer fence at my table saw and use it at the router table a lot too. For $7.50, it's a handy little thing, but beware that it is an easy item to lose.

Edwin

[Gabriel Marusic]

I posted on the error I made by using a 24" drafting ruler for 30+ years. When I was putting a 2nd tape on my sawstop, the one I had ordered did not line up well with the existing one. It varied +/- 1/32 . When I checked the tapes with my go-to drafting rule, it did not agree with either of the two tapes. I then did interval measures along its length and it was off by more than 1/32" in a couple of places.

Of note, I would read the rule in widely different ways during actual use. Sometimes I would start well away from the end and even at times reading it backwards. Lesson learned: check all your measuring devices against each other. I learned my lesson 30+ years too late.

I would have never thought to check my measuring devices against each other. Thank you for that.

[Gabriel Marusic]

These conversations are always valuable since we all tend to do things a little bit differently than each other. I returned the iGaging combination squares because the quality just wasn't that much better than something like a Swanson or an Empire from the BORG. PEC's hit the mark for me at about the same price point. The only Starrett's I have were gifted :o.

I put a small amount of effort into getting a set of rules and a tape that all matched and were consistent along their length. I certainly wouldn't want to fudge through with only a tape measure. As you noted, the tape is for roughing out things and rules and squares are for specifics. That doesn't mean you need to spend a ton. A set of these (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/rules/32568-stainless-steel-cabinetmakers-rules) for $35 (although some folks like them double sided and square ended at both ends) and one of these (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/tapes/32562-lee-valley-10-foot-tapes-for-cabinetmakers) for $7 (right to left because I am right handed) meet most of my needs during a build even though I have (Three Amigos reference) a plethora of other measuring and marking tools.

Trust me, everyone else's answers are right too. The best measuring tool for you is the one that let's you make accurate parts and saves you from do-overs and force-fits.

The responses here have been incredibly helpful. I'm leaning towards getting a set of rulers like you suggested and then I think I'll have to go to the store and find a tape measure that matches the ruler's measurements. I like that cabinet makers tape measure though, hopefully they have something similar at the BORG.

[Jon Endres]

My go-to devices for most measuring around the shop are a set of Utilitas hook rules from Lee Valley, a 16' Stanley Leverlock tape measure, an old Stanley combination square, an Empire aluminum "speed square", and a Starrett dial caliper. I have other stuff but those are my go-to devices. Also, the heavy acrylic drafting triangles (Alvin, K&E, Staedtler Mars) are generally considered to be very accurate, I keep a couple in my shop to set square and 45° on my saws and fences.

[Jim Becker]

Gabriel, I have a set of the steel rules from Lee Valley...and they all match. I picked up a 40" from Woodcraft (house brand) and got lucky that it also matched. What I really like about them is they are dual scale...inches and metric. I work mostly in the latter, but for some clients have to work in the former. One set of rules to do it all.

[ray grundhoefer]

I have an assortment of tape measures and rules plus an old craftsman combination square with the adjustable protractor.
The one luxury I did allow myself was a good square. After fighting with the cheap framing squares you get at the Borg for years I bought the woodpecker 16x24 framing square Followed by the 12" one a couple years later.
They are not cheap but they are really accurate

[Patrick Walsh]

I’ve made landfills full of custom cabinets with a Stanley tape measure and empire combo square. And one that’s not square to boot. Not even a crap level as a straight edge.

As Derek mentioned and from a fine Woodworking well any Woodworking perspective I consider his advice is very sound. And he is eloquent and patient enough to share in a constructive manner.

Pretty much what matters is cutting all your like parts at the same time. And or using parts to size other plants. Measurements only really start to matter when they affect something else. Or become cumulative say in the case of a 64th compounded even four times nevermind ten.

I tend to cut spacer pieces to get repetitive spacing and such say in the case of a panel. Lots of ways to do it simular to a story stick just different.

[michael dilday]

If you buy quality tools they will all match. If they don't throw them out. You cannot use just one measuring device for everything. You will need a tape measure and a 12" combination square for starters. They are the most basic you will need. For a tape measure I recommend the Stanley Leverlock. The reason I use this is because the tab is protected so if you drop the tape measure it doesn't bend the tab. I use the 16' because it is long enough to measure anything I need but still compact enough for ease of use. A story stick is a nice compliment but not necessary. If you are doing any adjustable shelves then a Kreg shelf pin jig or similar is your friend. Surprisingly enough most of your measuring will be done when you cut your parts on the table saw or miter saw. Make sure your tapes on the table saw and miter saw are calibrated.

[Gabriel Marusic]

Gabriel, this is an important topic. Many use their machines to dimension parts. That can work well, if the machines measure accurately and the same setting is used for all parts. The wrong way to go about dimensioning is to measure each part individually. Error will creep in inevitably. In hand tool woodworking, one learns to transfer measurement with a marking/cutting gauge, always do so from a reference side, and monitor this process. When you get into this type of thinking, you realise that tape measures are only for rough setting out, and steel rulers for fine tuning. The real measurements are generally made using the parts, themselves.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That makes complete sense. I plan on cutting all the same sized pieces in one go without adjusting or making different cuts in between and the same will go for my dados.

[Alan Lightstone]

I have more Woodpeckers rules than any human being should own. And I use them a lot. An economical approach, no, but it works for me. I'm moving more and more to metric, as it just plain is easier. So I have 300mm, 600mm, and 1200mm long rulers.

I also use my Fastcap flatback tape measure for rough measuring. Very convenient as you will learn from yours.

And owning a good, accurate square is also very helpful.

But really, it's all about learning technique, and there is tons of great advice available here.

[Derek Cohen]

Gabriel, I wasn't kidding when I wrote that marking gauges are the number one measuring devices. I have a few :)

https://i.postimg.cc/cCqQPx93/Gauges-zpsauodsbwb.jpg

I do have a few Starrett 12"/300mm combination squares. I purchased them all on eBay quite cheaply about 20-odd years ago. Very nice, but they are not used for laying out parts. I do use the blades as straight edges and as rulers.

I am more likely to use this Veritas Sliding Square, since it works more like a marking gauge (in fact, that is often how I use a Starrett 6" double square - that is a very useful square)

https://i.postimg.cc/y8gmb5L9/veritas-sliding-square.jpg

More commonly used are these square: 4" and 6" double square. Starrett, Vesper, and Moore&Wright ..

https://i.postimg.cc/zBsj5XQ5/Squares2-zpsdnbjkxoi.jpg

These are for joinery ...

6" and 9" Vespers ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RhrsgFS2/Vesperat-WIA3.jpg

Note that none of the square have graduations. They are for marking, not measuring.

Another marking tool is a set of dividers ...

https://i.postimg.cc/G2P71chb/Template2.jpg

If you need a tape, get a small one - 3m is enough. Festool and BMI ...

https://i.postimg.cc/kXncBCKg/Tape1a-zpsiyexqh2h.jpg

Below are drawer panels for stopped dados ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/EntryHallTableForANiece5_html_69f6d790.jpg

They are set out with templates/story sticks ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/EntryHallTableForANiece5_html_mdd5c081.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/EntryHallTableForANiece5_html_m376ec8e3.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/EntryHallTableForANiece5_html_1ddee0e4.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/EntryHallTableForANiece5_html_1ddee0e4.jpg

(Incidentally, I later ripped out the dividers as the grain rain thee wrong direction - how I missed this at the start, I do not know).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/EntryHallTableForANiece5_html_m6cb2b80d.jpg

The point I want to make is that good rulers are important, but a method that offers repeatability without measuring is even better. This is equally valid for power- and hand tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Gabriel Marusic]

I have more Woodpeckers rules than any human being should own. And I use them a lot. An economical approach, no, but it works for me. I'm moving more and more to metric, as it just plain is easier. So I have 300mm, 600mm, and 1200mm long rulers.

I also use my Fastcap flatback tape measure for rough measuring. Very convenient as you will learn from yours.

And owning a good, accurate square is also very helpful.

But really, it's all about learning technique, and there is tons of great advice available here.

I'd love if we used metric out here. My head hurts when I start to look at 32nds and I still can't read them right. My dad and I have a system where we'll look at the closest quarter inch and basically call out the 32nds as whole numbers. Something like an inch and a quarter plus 2 as an example.

A 6" Groz square was one of the first things I ordered so I'm glad I have that coming. I'd love to get some of those woodpeckers rulers but can't justify it just yet, I'm sure I'll rationalize it down the road sould this project goes well. At the moment I'm thinking maybe some PEC seconds in 12" and 36".

The information and support here are amazing, I've got 3 pages of perspective on measuring instruments and I haven't even asked for opinions on the construction techniques yet.

[Jim Becker]

There's nothing keeping you from using metric, Gabriel, other than the decision to do it. I switched two years ago and am uber-happy with that decision. I still need to use Imperial for some clent work, so having the rules I mentioned from Lee Valley that have dual scale covers all the bases.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/rules/32568-stainless-steel-cabinetmakers-rules

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/woodriver-set-of-4-stainless-steel-cabinetmakers-rules

[Gabriel Marusic]

There's nothing keeping you from using metric, Gabriel, other than the decision to do it. I switched two years ago and am uber-happy with that decision. I still need to use Imperial for some clent work, so having the rules I mentioned from Lee Valley that have dual scale covers all the bases.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/rules/32568-stainless-steel-cabinetmakers-rules

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/woodriver-set-of-4-stainless-steel-cabinetmakers-rules

It certainly would be easier and it’s not like I have any investment of note in measuring tools. Did you have to change the tape on your table saw or switch other tools? Rulers and tape would be easy but I’m wondering what the other implications would be.

[Jim Becker]

My machinery already has dual metric/Imperial scales on it...SCM/Minimax slider and J/P. My Festool stuff already had metric scales. Changing a tape on a North American type table saw isn't that difficult and dual scale tapes are available out there to ease the change and to support "those times" when you need to use the alternative scale like I do with some clients. What you don't want to do is mix both systems on the same project if you can avoid that. ;) "Some" of my client work, particularly the CNC stuff, I'm doing in metric even when they specify decimal inches...because I'm just like that. LOL The CNC doesn't care what system I use.

[Gabriel Marusic]

I hadnÂ’t even heard of a marking gauge before posting this thread as well as some of the other measuring devices. That said after reading through all the replies here I feel pretty good about what I have, outside of needing a good combination square. I like the idea of the story sticks in conjunction with templates and cutting all the same sized pieces in one go.

That is a beautiful piece in the pictures and is akin to art. Here I am racking my brain just trying to make a plywood box.

[ChrisA Edwards]

If metric is your preference, before you start buying measuring tools, go that route and save yourself some money.

I made the switch, from Imperial to Metric, at the start of this year, my 2020 New Years resolution, and have not had any real difficulties, but it cost me about $400-$500 to buy the measuring tools I use in Metric.

I printed out and laminated a sheet of conversions, showing Inch fractions, Inch Decimals and Millimeters and stuck in on my wall. I occasionally have to go cross reference a metric size back to imperial, but rarely.

I have a FastCap and Starret tape measure, I use the FastCap one most of the time, three Shinwa Steel rulers (Amazon) 300mm, 600mm and 1000mm, which I love. All seem to be marked accurately to each other.

I have a couple of Woodpeckers Delv Squares, which are my go to for marking square lines, but unfortunately they are marked Imperial. These were a Woodpeckers One Time tool offer. When they offer it again, in Metric, I'll buy the larger one again.

I'd never used a digital caliper for woodworking, but now have several for different situations. I use the Igaging brand, they are cheap, seem to have good battery life and appear to be more than accurate enough for my wood working.

I can still visualize Inches easier than cm or mm, but that is slowly changing as I do more projects.

[lowell holmes]

https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=yard-sticks&catalog=4294607847

[Ryan Yeaglin]

I would say a good compliment of measuring tools would be 12' or 16' tape, 25' tape, 6" and/or 12" combo square (if money allows buy a quality square set with a center head and protractor), 2' framing square, bevel square and a pair of dividers for layout work.

[David Utterback]

I am feeling very tiny after seeing Derek's tools.

[Jim Becker]

I am feeling very tiny after seeing Derek's tools.

https://qaf05a.sn.files.1drv.com/y4mQnyco8CbktBfOQPpiq1qCZVv7X0EBzwXZ4huUGN2r4MPsGQ BuRyPsvR02MDS02Y901DWWAzJPc_3e3kVITQXQIqiGz7WZysiK MoFCrOzwHPovUtQUHn7kdGcyRMNfC_WnZzFqtkso3_6BeEZ8kM a1WGQ1zBmgOT5yT2ipk7PNDc7VGxGlnZQ3wGHSIBcO4Ed84OVw YHBTeEjO1uIeD9rfw?width=408&height=479&cropmode=none

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t even need to see Dereks tools to feel tiny...



https://qaf05a.sn.files.1drv.com/y4mQnyco8CbktBfOQPpiq1qCZVv7X0EBzwXZ4huUGN2r4MPsGQ BuRyPsvR02MDS02Y901DWWAzJPc_3e3kVITQXQIqiGz7WZysiK MoFCrOzwHPovUtQUHn7kdGcyRMNfC_WnZzFqtkso3_6BeEZ8kM a1WGQ1zBmgOT5yT2ipk7PNDc7VGxGlnZQ3wGHSIBcO4Ed84OVw YHBTeEjO1uIeD9rfw?width=408&height=479&cropmode=none

[Jim Becker]

I don’t even need to see Dereks tools to feel tiny...

...says the man who owns and covets "big iron"....:D :D :D

[Patrick Walsh]

Well don’t us men compensate for our inadequacies with big and or flashy fancy stuff ;)




...says the man who owns and covets "big iron"....:D :D :D

[Brian W Evans]

Derek, I love that Veritas sliding square. I've never heard anyone else mention it, but it must be popular since they recently came out with a 10" blade for it.

[Brian W Evans]

Gabriel,

I just want to add that I find myself using my digital caliper more and more often. A decent caliper won't set you back that much and can do lots of different measurements that other tools can't - or at least can't do as well. They're not a layout tool, but for machine setup, finding out thicknesses, measuring hole depth, etc., it's very useful.

I will also say that I measure less and reference more, the more woodworking I do.

[Derek Cohen]

I am feeling very tiny after seeing Derek's tools.

Sorry David :D

Would it make you feel any better if I said that I made some of them?

Actually, teasing aside, making a marking gauge or a marking knife is a fun project.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I love that Veritas sliding square. I've never heard anyone else mention it, but it must be popular since they recently came out with a 10" blade for it.

Brian, thanks for the heads up. I did not know this.

I mentioned earlier that I use a combination square this way - they are useful for scribing lines at a distance from the edge of a board, setting projections, depth gauge, setting the height of a saw blade or router bit ... even for marking or checking square! Who’d of thought that! I use the blades off two as winding sticks (to check for twist in a board).

I have a couple of Mitutoyo digital vernier caliper gauges - Mitutoyo are vey reliable but also very Expensive, however I managed to get them secondhand (be careful about this as there are fakes out there). They are invaluable for checking thicknesses. The Mitutoyo are extremely reliable, for example, about returning to zero, unlike cheapies. The inexpensive other I have is one from Wixey. I like this one as it also does Imperial fractions. That is a useful tool for converting between the two measurements.

I grew up with both Metric and Imperial. I visualise larger lengths better in Imperial, but Metric is easier to use. I am now moving increasingly to metric owing to the European machines I have being metric.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Seemann]

I am feeling very tiny after seeing Derek's tools.

My first thought was, criminy, that cost more than my whole collection of used planes. And most of my layout tools too.

[Gabriel Marusic]

My machinery already has dual metric/Imperial scales on it...SCM/Minimax slider and J/P. My Festool stuff already had metric scales. Changing a tape on a North American type table saw isn't that difficult and dual scale tapes are available out there to ease the change and to support "those times" when you need to use the alternative scale like I do with some clients. What you don't want to do is mix both systems on the same project if you can avoid that. ;) "Some" of my client work, particularly the CNC stuff, I'm doing in metric even when they specify decimal inches...because I'm just like that. LOL The CNC doesn't care what system I use.

Looks like PEC makes rulers with metric on one side and imperial on the other so I could get the best of both worlds. There seem to be a lot of new "seconds" on ebay where they only have cosmetic issues and didn't pass quality control but measure accurately. A number of them are over 50% off too.

[Gabriel Marusic]

Gabriel,

I just want to add that I find myself using my digital caliper more and more often. A decent caliper won't set you back that much and can do lots of different measurements that other tools can't - or at least can't do as well. They're not a layout tool, but for machine setup, finding out thicknesses, measuring hole depth, etc., it's very useful.

I will also say that I measure less and reference more, the more woodworking I do.

Is there an easy way to tell if the digital caliper is accurate? Not that cost is the only determining factor, but I recall it being pretty cheap.

[Derek Cohen]

Is there an easy way to tell if the digital caliper is accurate? Not that cost is the only determining factor, but I recall it being pretty cheap.

You need to use it against a known and reliable master. Then open and close it. See if it returns to zero each time. Measure the same part a few times.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Good article here on Combination Square from Bob Lang (Popular Woodworking): https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/combination-squares/?utm_campaign=PWW%20Editorial%20Newsletters&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=87669364&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9mjy96ipuBOEHa-OibEfQhc6hHsSJRglUHJrpUaFXD0YxZzU33LNq9xfBhVCiC8pT vDyZ8&utm_content=87609353&utm_source=hs_email

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Gabriel Marusic]

Good article here on Combination Square from Bob Lang (Popular Woodworking): https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/combination-squares/?utm_campaign=PWW%20Editorial%20Newsletters&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=87669364&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9mjy96ipuBOEHa-OibEfQhc6hHsSJRglUHJrpUaFXD0YxZzU33LNq9xfBhVCiC8pT vDyZ8&utm_content=87609353&utm_source=hs_email

Regards from Perth


Derek

Thank you, that is an incredibly helpful article. I ordered a Groz 6" Machinist Square a week ago but I really should have ordered a good combination square instead. I didn't realize how versatile they are.

[Scott Bernstein]

I think if one has the option (or luxury) of using fine measuring tools it is a good idea, for many of the reasons already stated in terms of accuracy, repeatability of measurements across various tools, etc... I use a lot of WoodPeckers, Chris Vesper, and Starret intruments. Of course you don't need the fancy stuff. A decent big-box ruler and square will probably do just fine for most things. However, using good measuring tools that may have been expensive to purchase, encourage me to pay more attention to measuring and detail. I think for me at least, this is a big benefit of using good tools.

[Jim Becker]

Looks like PEC makes rulers with metric on one side and imperial on the other so I could get the best of both worlds. There seem to be a lot of new "seconds" on ebay where they only have cosmetic issues and didn't pass quality control but measure accurately. A number of them are over 50% off too.

Just make sure that whatever "set" you buy all match up with measurement. You need consistency across multiple length rules. The LV set I have plus the 40" from Woodcraft all match up exactly...I tested them. And I do highly recommend dual scale regardless of personal preference given we live in the real world.

[Kevin Jenness]

Gabriel,

For a dive down the rabbit hole, here's a recent thread that may interest you https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?275871-Metrology-for-the-cabinetmaker

In the meantime, you can accomplish a lot with a measuring tape, a bevel gauge, a framing square and an adjustable square. If you find the need, rulers, calipers, dial indicators and the rest will follow.

[Ryan Yeaglin]

I think if one has the option (or luxury) of using fine measuring tools it is a good idea, for many of the reasons already stated in terms of accuracy, repeatability of measurements across various tools, etc... I use a lot of WoodPeckers, Chris Vesper, and Starret intruments. Of course you don't need the fancy stuff. A decent big-box ruler and square will probably do just fine for most things. However, using good measuring tools that may have been expensive to purchase, encourage me to pay more attention to measuring and detail. I think for me at least, this is a big benefit of using good tools.

While I don't doubt that woodpecker's stuff is accurate, I feel what they ask for their products is A LOT for aluminum tools, I would much rather spend my money for a Starret tool.

[Jim Dwight]

I have 12 inch, 18 inch, and 24 inch steel rulers which agree with each other and my tape measures. The rip fence for my table saw is set to them. I do not normally use a combination square for measuring. I use stop blocks whenever possible. It lets me avoid cutting to marks which I find not to be reliable. When I got a track saw I started doing it more and got a 0.5mm pencil and a Incra T square. It is a very accurate way to mark within it's length limitations. But I made what I call track positioning sticks with adjustable stops to avoid cutting to marks with the track saw too. Whenever possible I also make parts to fit the project measuring against what is already made rather than making parts to the dimensions of the plans. Even small "errors" add up.

I use metric dimensions only when I have to (e.g. with my domino) and even then I convert to inches. I cannot think in metric. I can manipulate dimensions in metric but I have no feel for what they mean. So I use the dimensions that mean something to me.

I also use a dial caliper but it's main scale is in 64s of an inch. It always seemed like the battery on my digital was shot when I needed to use it. I mainly use it to check thickness.

I have an old Skil biscuit joiner I rarely use. But it's crummy fence caused me to make a bunch of blocks about 2x4 inches that vary in thickness by 1/16 inch. I have them from 1/8 to over 1 inch. Very handy for setting table saw blade height, router bit height, etc.

[Myk Rian]

Get a good steel rule, or 2. 15" - 24", and a 4'er. A carpenters square also.
Also, a set of marking tools such as a scribe and/or chisel tip.

I won a set of scribes from sawmill creek some years ago for making the 1 millionth post.
It's something I take very good care of, and made a cherry box for them.

If you intend on doing precision work, they are a must. Without, this would have been much more difficult to make.

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=170334&d=1232826753

[Gabriel Marusic]

Gabriel,

For a dive down the rabbit hole, here's a recent thread that may interest you https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?275871-Metrology-for-the-cabinetmaker

In the meantime, you can accomplish a lot with a measuring tape, a bevel gauge, a framing square and an adjustable square. If you find the need, rulers, calipers, dial indicators and the rest will follow.

Thank you for that, interesting read and I could certainly see myself getting obsessed with precision down the road. I'm detail driven, though I'll have to temper that for my first project.

[Gabriel Marusic]

I think if one has the option (or luxury) of using fine measuring tools it is a good idea, for many of the reasons already stated in terms of accuracy, repeatability of measurements across various tools, etc... I use a lot of WoodPeckers, Chris Vesper, and Starret intruments. Of course you don't need the fancy stuff. A decent big-box ruler and square will probably do just fine for most things. However, using good measuring tools that may have been expensive to purchase, encourage me to pay more attention to measuring and detail. I think for me at least, this is a big benefit of using good tools.

I very much like well made tools, regardless of the craft. I'd much rather spend the money once on a good tool and know I can rely on it down the road. I'm also likely to be more inclined to work better with better tools. The psychological benefit is tangible when it causes you to up your game.

[Gabriel Marusic]

Get a good steel rule, or 2. 15" - 24", and a 4'er. A carpenters square also.
Also, a set of marking tools such as a scribe and/or chisel tip.

I won a set of scribes from sawmill creek some years ago for making the 1 millionth post.
It's something I take very good care of, and made a cherry box for them.

If you intend on doing precision work, they are a must. Without, this would have been much more difficult to make.

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=170334&d=1232826753

I think I will buy a couple of PEC rulers off of ebay that are seconds and are about half the price of normal. I'm currently looking at a Starrett combination square as well since it is so versatile.

That is a beautiful dresser, hopefully someday I'll be able to make a piece like that.

[Myk Rian]

That is a beautiful dresser, hopefully someday I'll be able to make a piece like that.
Thanks. It's a tool chest.

[Jack Frederick]

I have a set of metal rules I bought from Garrett Wade years ago. I also have Starret squares and use the 6'" Combo all the time. I have assorted rules around the shop, one of which stays on the bench and is painted so I don't take it out for general work. I find that I still use a 6' Lufkin "Inside" folding rule at the bench and it to stays on the bench.

[Gabriel Marusic]

I have a set of metal rules I bought from Garrett Wade years ago. I also have Starret squares and use the 6'" Combo all the time. I have assorted rules around the shop, one of which stays on the bench and is painted so I don't take it out for general work. I find that I still use a 6' Lufkin "Inside" folding rule at the bench and it to stays on the bench.

I just purchased the Starrett 6" combination square this morning!

[John Makar]

I probably have at least one of all the tools identified by others in this thread, plus scads of inherited high-grade machineist tools. I actually use them all. I also am pathetic when it comes to resisting the measuring tool pimps at Woodpeck. My latest love is a 12" Incra measuring-marking rule. I did not know I needed rough precision down to 1/32", but it turns out to be so. You Should own a Starrett 12" miter rule. Some form of measured try-square tho in truth the Starrett can also handle that, and some form of high quality (as in accurate marking that you can actually read) 12" or better ruler. I reach for my old folding rule regularly, and then regret it because it is an old technology with lots of flaws. From there the odds are on something by Woodpeck or Incra.

Keep in mind the same disruptive technology growth that has turned over everything else is at work in woodworking as well. While older forms like folding rules, tape measures, etc. maybe a part of the process, new forms have arisen that are considerably better. I now own a [Woodpeck] precision stainless and aluminum modular story-stick thingy that fits in a nice case, and turned a lot of Poplar sticks into stuff used to test the cut on my router table.

It's contextual as well. I make boxes. I dabble in furniture and other whatnot, but boxes be me. A minute gap in a box seam can be fatal. Square needs to really, really be 90 degrees. A bit off of 45 degrees on a miter can make you truly miserable later in the day. On a larger scale you can fudge things a bit. I made a patio bench once with redwood, a radial arm saw, and yard stick, 30 years ago, and it is still a darn fine patio bench.

[Gabriel Marusic]

While I don't own anything from Woodpeckers yet, I have been ogling them and really want that 24" T Square. Since posting this thread I purchased a Starrett 6" combination square, a groz machinists square, a PEC 12" ruler, a fastcap tape measure and some 38" straightedge. I do feel like I could use a longer ruler, maybe a 24" or so, and a larger square, machinist or combination. Since I'm dabbling in making cabinets as my first go round, being square is incredibly important to me. I'm trying to reign in my spending, but seemingly always find something I "need".

[Derek Cohen]

If you want to go BIG, then you can make your own ...

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Layout%20Square%20in%20wood/.highres/A5.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Layout%20Square%20in%20wood/.highres/A6.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds

This is pretty accurate - it is accurate enough for any woodwork. And it has remained this way for several years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

While I don't own anything from Woodpeckers yet, I have been ogling them and really want that 24" T Square.

I bought that a couple years ago when I caught a show discount opportunity...mine's the metric equivalent, but obviously the same product otherwise. I haven't really used it much, likely because not long after acquiring it, I bought my CNC, but when it's the right tool, it's the right tool. As previously mentioned, I have multiple steel rules from 6" long up to 40" long so I can select the length that best suits the measuring operation I need to do.

[lowell holmes]

You can find metal yardsticks at Lowes and Home Depot.

[Gabriel Marusic]

If you want to go BIG, then you can make your own ...

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Layout%20Square%20in%20wood/.highres/A5.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Layout%20Square%20in%20wood/.highres/A6.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds

This is pretty accurate - it is accurate enough for any woodwork. And it has remained this way for several years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I would love to make a square like that. I'll have to look for some plans . What kind of joints did you use?

[Derek Cohen]

Gabriel, the sides are all held with half-laps. This is a very strong joint as it has a large glue area.

It is easy to achieve a high level of accuracy with the side flip method for checking squareness. Just plane away the parts that are not.

This square is very useful when laying out lines and when checking the squareness of a case.

Regards from Perth

Derek