Vise Chop facing Ideas?

[Rob Luter]

Greetings to all -

I'm about to make some tweaks to the chop on my twin screw vise. I need to lighten it up quite a bit and apply a new facing. I started out with leather when I built it in 2008, but the thickness wasn't uniform enough. I changed to a self adhesive cork a few years ago, but it moves around with humidity and isn't very durable. Has anyone used the cork/rubber composites or sheet rubber? I'd like a little resilience to the material but it needs to be durable.

432277

[Dave Anderson NH]

I have used the cork/rubber on the faces of my Emmert vise for 10 years without deterioration. Since it is a metal faced vise I attached flexible magnet material on the back of both pieces with pressure sensitive adhesive so the cork/rubber is removable. Works like a charm.

[ken hatch]

Rob,

Crubber from Benchcrafted works very well. Use contact cement to apply.

ken

[Jim Matthews]

I have used the cork/rubber on the faces of my Emmert vise for 10 years without deterioration. Since it is a metal faced vise I attached flexible magnet material on the back of both pieces with pressure sensitive adhesive so the cork/rubber is removable. Works like a charm.

Where do you source the cork?

[John Keeton]

I used the Crubber that came with my BC leg vise kit and used 3M spray adhesive on the vise faces and on the Crubber. Works great. I can’t speak for durability as it is new, but the Crubber has a durable feel to it. BC sells the Crubber separately. I got my vise from Highland and they may also carry it.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I took home some excess from work while I was still working Jim. However, you can buy it from McMaster-Carr or MSC Direct. I used 1/8" thickness for both durability and ease of handling.

[chris carter]

Personally, I would just replace the leather with new leather. It sounds like you just got really bad leather the first time around.

Crubber is not nearly as durable as leather. Even on Benchcrafted’s website, where you’d expect them to put their product in the best light they reasonably can, they describe it as lasting “years under normal use” and they describe the benefits of using rubber cement to make it easier “when it’s time to replace the Crubber.” That doesn’t exactly instill confidence in me as they clearly expect you to have to replace it. Meanwhile, you can reasonably expect 3-4oz veg tan leather, which costs about the same or cheaper depending on market conditions, to last the life of the bench under normal use. Additionally, according to Andy Klein’s test on youtube, it has better grip than Crubber.

I’m not knocking Crubber. My father-in-law has it on a moxon vise I’ve used and it works fine. But it’s primary selling point (other than the Benchcrafted name) is that it’s easy to purchase. With leather you need to do a little research to figure out what kind/weight to buy and then source it.

[David Eisenhauer]

I have some thin suede leather (from a hobby leather shop) scrap material on a face vise and my Moxon and the crubber on my BC leg vise. Both hold great and both were glued on with Wellwood contact cement. 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other. I did also use some left over "dropoffs" from the irregular shaped/sized suede leather pieces I cut up to add to my holdfast faces and other clamps as well. Again, it works well and I still have more leftover suede for future use..

[Rob Luter]

Thanks for the replies. If I had my druthers I'd use leather, but sourcing a piece that big that is uniform in thickness has been problematic. I'll check out the crubber.

[ken hatch]

Personally, I would just replace the leather with new leather. It sounds like you just got really bad leather the first time around.

Crubber is not nearly as durable as leather. Even on Benchcrafted’s website, where you’d expect them to put their product in the best light they reasonably can, they describe it as lasting “years under normal use” and they describe the benefits of using rubber cement to make it easier “when it’s time to replace the Crubber.” That doesn’t exactly instill confidence in me as they clearly expect you to have to replace it. Meanwhile, you can reasonably expect 3-4oz veg tan leather, which costs about the same or cheaper depending on market conditions, to last the life of the bench under normal use. Additionally, according to Andy Klein’s test on youtube, it has better grip than Crubber.

I’m not knocking Crubber. My father-in-law has it on a moxon vise I’ve used and it works fine. But it’s primary selling point (other than the Benchcrafted name) is that it’s easy to purchase. With leather you need to do a little research to figure out what kind/weight to buy and then source it.

Chris,

I've had leather applied with glue (both hide and yellow) dry up and come loose where the leather was not re-usable. I've been using Clubber with contact cement for a couple of years now with no problems other than a small tear on the top which I repaired with new contact cement and it holds better than leather. Of course YMMV.

ken

[glenn bradley]

Another long term leather user here. If you are having consistency problems look to your supplier, not necessarily the material. It is though, of course, a natural product. ;-)

432295432296432297

This one has been on for about 4 years. The vises on my previous bench used leather from the same split and were on over 10 years when they left the shop along with that bench. I use a fairly thin leather (5 - 6 oz.) on the sliding jaw only. The improved grip is pretty impressive and I find the leather to be very long lasting with reasonable care. There is not a lot of sliding / levering motion to loosen or damage the leather in using a woodworking vise. Thess actions are reserved for my bench vises.

[Paul F Franklin]

I put rubberized cork on both my vises and am very happy with it, although being mostly a power tool guy they don't get the use that some others might. It's fairly "grippy" which lets you use less pressure than you might otherwise.

Bought mine from McMaster. "Water-Resistant Low-Pressure Rubber/Cork Gasket Material" The low pressure refers to its application in gaskets.

[Rob Luter]

Another long term leather user here. If you are having consistency problems look to your supplier, not necessarily the material. It is though, of course, a natural product. ;-)

432295432296432297

This one has been on for about 4 years. The vises on my previous bench used leather from the same split and were on over 10 years when they left the shop along with that bench. I use a fairly thin leather (5 - 6 oz.) on the sliding jaw only. The improved grip is pretty impressive and I find the leather to be very long lasting with reasonable care. There is not a lot of sliding / levering motion to loosen or damage the leather in using a woodworking vise. Thess actions are reserved for my bench vises.

I agree Glenn - My local source is a saddle and tack maker. He doesn't have the means to split large pieces. Sources for large split pieces were way too proud of their product for my wallet, not to mention large minimums.

Edit - How thick is the chop on your twin screw Glenn?

[chris carter]

You don't necessarily need a whole solid piece. On the bench I just finished up I used two pieces I bought on ye ol' electronic bay. I just told the seller I was matching them up and needed them to be the same thickness. They sent me two pieces that were the EXACT same thickness. I cannot find the seam running my fingers over the chop. I got two pieces of 16x9" veg tanned cow tooling leather 3 to 4 oz. for a whopping $22. Way cheaper than being forced to buy a half a hide!

[Barney Markunas]

What thickness cork-rubber gasket material (aka crubber) are you folks using? I've seen it available in thicknesses ranging from 1/32- on up to 1/2-inch. Is there a sweet spot? I'd rather not do the Goldilocks thing and try several different thicknesses before I hit "just right".
Thanks!

[Paul F Franklin]

I used 1/8" thick on the outer jaws only. Seems about right to me. I didn't put it on the inner jaws. My face vice is set into the bench so the inner jaw is flush to the side of the top and I like it that way, so I just lined the outer jaw.

[Rob Luter]

The adhesive backed cork I used last time was about 1/16 thick. Outer jaw only. It worked great and gripped like a mofo. Unfortunately it only lasted five years.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Here's the McMaster-Carr link:

https://www.mcmaster.com/cork-rubber/

You pay a few dollars more for the M-C product ($24 for 1/8 thick) than for a sheet of Crubber cut by Benchcrafted, but isn't it about the same stuff? You also can save about $5 each time you go down by 1/32". Either way, you can buy a 12" x 36" piece of it from M-C and have a lot left over.

A few days ago I read that David Eisenhauer recommended suede, so I found a 48"-long strip on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strips-of-Suede-Leather-Toast-48-Inches-Length-4-4-5-oz-Choose-Width/323776082344?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=512768667578&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I chose the 4" width, the widest that seller had. I figure I'll use the 4" x 16" cutoff to make two 1-5/8" x 16" strips for the bottom of the front chop.

432316

[glenn bradley]

Edit - How thick is the chop on your twin screw Glenn?

Let me go measure . . . The front vise is 2-1/4" while the end vise is 2-3/4". The reason for the difference? I put the front vise on first and shaped the chop per Lee Valley's instructions. This bevel was way-overkill for my use. By the time I got things where I wanted them I was at about 2-1/4" assuming I would just make a new one if it didn't work out; it has been fine. I use the ends of the chop to grab things and dog material across the left apron:

432314

That's why we love these twin screws right? No racking. I only point this out to emphasize that 2-1/4" hard maple has been plenty stout. HTH.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Glenn, the twin-screw vise works well for that dog setup, but the free-floating Moxon front chop would rack unless you put a spacer into the far end. I think spacers are easy, though. Neat idea in any case.

[Sam Shankar]

My benchcrafted leg vise has crubber. And it's great. And it doesn't seem appreciably different than the 32" x 32" sheet of rubberized cork that I got for $15 from Amazon.

I am happy to send a big hunk of it to you for free if you PM me. I'm paying forward a spare plane blade that another creeker sent me for free.

[Tom Bender]

I put leather on both jaws about 5 years ago and it still looks new. Got it from a shop that does fancy leatherwork in or near Kentucky. Can't remember who. Told them what I wanted and they sent me exactly what I wanted; and a spare set just because. I think it was about $25. The pieces are 27" x 2" x 1/8", no need to go to the bottom of the chop. Glued on a little proud on top and hand planed flush with the vise closed. Slick. It's not a smooth surface, it's rough and grips like tiger paws.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Or just get this (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/supplies/project-materials/76643-split-leather)from Lee Valley when they have stock again. Free shipping to boot.

[John Keeton]

I have no knowledge of how durable when used on vise chops, but “split leather” and “suede” are terms used for the flesh side of a hide. It is less dense and structurally less durable than top spit, also called grain split. Top grain leather would seem a more durable choice applied with the split face out. It would provide the same rough surface, but with a more dense and durable consistency.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Back to this thread as I move to the chop-lining step. When you read Benchcrafted's blurb in praise of Crubber, it ends by calling it "Every bit (and perhaps moreso) as grippy as suede." So, is suede the gold standard? Two questions:

1) Does suede pick up all kinds of sawdust and small chips? I wouldn't want to grind those into my parts.

2) Should you cut the liner only as long as the distance between the lead screws, or the full width of the front chop and put holes in for the screws? I'm leaning toward the latter as I think this would distribute the clamping force better, but I've seen people do it both ways. (This is a Moxon, not a twin-screw that started this thread.)

[Scott Winners]

If you really want to stick with leather, figure out how big a piece you need and have it processed. I dunno if Tandy leather is still a thing now that Radio Shack is a walking zombie, but there is a process where you can take a piece of leather , run it through a machine with a hand crank on it, and it all comes out unfirm thickness with some shavings scraped off it. It is one way to make garmet lkeather, like for jackets and skirts. And belts.

You want the hair side probably, with the flesh side scraped down to unform thickness. Dang it, my google fu is failing me. Anyway, much cheaper (likely) to a buy a long thin piece at uniform thickness, rather than a short wide one.

Once you know the name of the machine that can bring say a 4x16 inch strip of leather down to uniform thickness all you have to do is find someone that has one. Sorry, long week here.

[Michael J Evans]

Rob I've never used it but I think sheet rubber would work really good in this application. Uniform thickness, durable but yet forgiving, resistant to various things, etc
I did some research for you and there is a michiana supply that shows they stock sheet rubber. Likely have some rems as well.

[Rob Luter]

I've yet to do anything with this. I found some cork but it was really fragile. As cheap as it was that was really no surprise. I'll likely source some crubber eventually. The raw maple chop has been working OK for the time being.

[Derek Cohen]

I purchased cork-rubber on eBay.

This is the inside of the chop ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TheLastMoxon_html_m36f01ea.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Rob, I used cheap cork from Michaels (or somewhere, can’t remember) and stuck it on with the 3M stuff. This is what it looks like after about 3 years. Desperately needs replacing. Maybe I abuse it, or didn’t apply it well, but it’s not long lasting. I’ll likely try the crubber or the cork/rubber Derek shows.


446783

[Rob Luter]

Rob, I used cheap cork from Michaels (or somewhere, can’t remember) and stuck it on with the 3M stuff. This is what it looks like after about 3 years. Desperately needs replacing. Maybe I abuse it, or didn’t apply it well, but it’s not long lasting. I’ll likely try the crubber or the cork/rubber Derek shows.


446783

That was my experience too. I had originally lined it with cork years ago and it held up OK. That said, it shrank and grew with humidity and you had to be careful not to tear it. I went to Michaels or Hobby Lobby and got some fresh cork and it wasn't the same stuff. It would crumble when you tried to cut it. I'll probably order some crubber from Benchcrafted. I need to measure my vise chop first.

[John Keeton]

I had Crubber on mine and it did well, but I used 3M spray adhesive and it failed. I haven’t replaced it with anything yet, but mine doesn’t get the use that most of you all are accustomed to. On the base of my shavehorse I do have a piece of inner tube rubber and it works very well. Originally, I had a piece wrapping the head, but it didn’t hold up. I haven’t seen the need to replace it.

I should have clarified - the Crubber held up well. It was only the adhesive bond that failed. I may attempt another adhesive at some point.

[Paul F Franklin]

I got my rubberized cork from Mcmaster. I used 1/8" thick. Grips well, doesn't collect chips and "stuff" and has held up well.

[chris carter]

Back to this thread as I move to the chop-lining step. When you read Benchcrafted's blurb in praise of Crubber, it ends by calling it "Every bit (and perhaps moreso) as grippy as suede." So, is suede the gold standard? Two questions:

1) Does suede pick up all kinds of sawdust and small chips? I wouldn't want to grind those into my parts.

2) Should you cut the liner only as long as the distance between the lead screws, or the full width of the front chop and put holes in for the screws? I'm leaning toward the latter as I think this would distribute the clamping force better, but I've seen people do it both ways. (This is a Moxon, not a twin-screw that started this thread.)

1) No. The leather will not pick up sawdust and chips. I've never had that happen.
2) My bench, and my previous one, had twin screw vises instead of Moxon vises. But I would still go all the way across because situations could arise where you might want to clamp outside the screws. My father-in-law has a Moxon and I have personally clamped outside the screws on it - so there you go! It's only a few inches so I don't really see the advantage of staying inside the screws (a couple dollars??).

Here's a shot of my outer chop (again, twin screw instead of Moxon, but they do the same thing really). My previous bench had a similar twin screw with leather and although that bench was retired after just three years, the leather was in perfect condition. This shot is my new bench after one year of use. I include the photo to demonstrate that a seam in the leather is meaningless. Because of the dimensions of my chop I was getting into the quarter-hide land and I didn't want to spend that much. So I bought two small pieces and just lined them up. It has absolutely zero impact and you'd never know other than being able to see some hide glue on the seam.
446787

As for Crubber - I personally would not use it. It's not significantly cheaper than 3oz veg tan leather, but it is nowhere near as durable. My father-in-law has had no issues with Crubber on his moxon after a few years, but that vise rarely gets used. But if you search all over this forum and the rest of the interwebs you find plenty of reports of it eventually breaking down and needing to be replaced. With leather, the only failure is related to perhaps choosing the wrong kind of leather, or not sufficiently gluing it - but the leather will last eons. Benchcrafted even makes references to Crubber's comparatively short life span. So I would only use Crubber if you don't like animal products or if leather is too expansive in your country. So yes, I would say that veg tan leather is the gold standard. Put it on fuzzy side out, and scratch up the smooth side before gluing to your chop. Then use a knife to cut out the holes and trim off the excess.

[Michael J Evans]

In regards to using two pieces instead of one solid.
I can't understand why anyone would have objections to using two pieces. Even if they were minutely dimensionally different, isn't the leather compressible?
How exact do you really have to have the clamping force distributed?

[Bob Jones 5443]

Alright, I'm going with soft two-sided suede. I hope I'm not violating a rule here, but here's the link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strips-of-Suede-Leather-Toast-48-Inches-Length-4-4-5-oz-Choose-Width/323776082344?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=512768667578&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I am not affiliated with the seller.

I'll cut it to full width, and then cut a narrow, parallel strip to cover the bottom inch and a half of the front chop.

I have brush-on contact cement. Any pros/cons for using that here? Mine is low-VOC, but still smells, so maybe it will hold. I used it recently to bond Formica to plywood for my router table.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I purchased cork-rubber on eBay.

This is the inside of the chop ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TheLastMoxon_html_m36f01ea.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, how do you remove the lead screws from the rear chop? I guess you could unscrew the rods through the rear of the vise.

Since reading your blog, I've also wondered how your front chop behaves through those bushings. Does it angle in and out or does it need to go on and off "straight?"

[chris carter]

Alright, I'm going with soft two-sided suede. I hope I'm not violating a rule here, but here's the link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strips-of-Suede-Leather-Toast-48-Inches-Length-4-4-5-oz-Choose-Width/323776082344?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=512768667578&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I am not affiliated with the seller.

I'll cut it to full width, and then cut a narrow, parallel strip to cover the bottom inch and a half of the front chop.

I have brush-on contact cement. Any pros/cons for using that here? Mine is low-VOC, but still smells, so maybe it will hold. I used it recently to bond Formica to plywood for my router table.

If you haven’t purchased yet, I strongly recommend getting a full grain veg tan leather in 3 to 4 oz. Here’s a link to where I got mine: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192766711720

My first vise I used contact cement. A pain in the butt, but it worked fine with zero issues. I wouldn’t do contact cement again because of the pain in the butt part (I do a little leather working though, and I do use it for leather to leather bonds before stitching – so it’s not like I hate the stuff in general). I’ve used TBIII and Elmers Glue All for a number of leather strops and no issues. My current bench vise I used liquid hide glue. That was the easiest and I partially chose it because if I ever have to re-glue a section (or heaven forbid, replace it all), I won’t have to scrape all the old glue 100% off. You can pretty much use just about any type of glue. That said, Wood by Wright has a video where he did both sides of his vise with contact cement on one side and hide glue on the other and the contact cement had peeling while the hide glue side was perfect. That is anecdotal though….

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, how do you remove the lead screws from the rear chop? I guess you could unscrew the rods through the rear of the vise.

Since reading your blog, I've also wondered how your front chop behaves through those bushings. Does it angle in and out or does it need to go on and off "straight?"

Yes, unscrew through the rear, Bob. I’m not sure what you mean by angle. Everything is square.

Further to the design, I have triangular springs on my chop ...

https://i.postimg.cc/4y0z55Gg/Spring1.jpg

These springs collapse and allow the chop to close up, but assist in opening it when the wheels are loosened ...

https://i.postimg.cc/dVcmgwSy/Moxon-spring4.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Nj87cSWP/Moxon-spring3.jpg

I’ve been using cork-rubber for over two years now, starting with my previous Moxon, when I also added it to the leg vise and tail vise. It still looks like new (and I do use the bench and Moxon a bit). I like that it is grippy and has a memory - when indented by a dowel, for example, it will return to its shape.

Note that my bench vises and Moxon used suede leather before, and I removed this as it would soak up oil (from finishes, or spills) and lose its grip. The cork-rubber repels oil. Leather also wears and eventually needs to be replaced. The cork-rubber will no doubt need to be replaced at some stage ... when? At this rate, in about 5 years or so. I can live with that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Jones 5443]

Derek, thanks for the crisp detail.

By "angled," I was hunting for the word to describe letting the front chop pivot from side to side as you pull it out or push it in. I see yours is on bushings, so the springs are helpful. I took a chance and am just using elongated holes in the chop, so the wood rides on the Acme thread. Maybe there will be bushings in my future.

Well, the suede/Crubber/leather debate lives on, along with the choice of glue. Stumbling forward to the next decisions. I'll post the completed vise in another thread (pre-oil, pre-lining).

[Phil Stone]

Chris, what type of glue do you use for gluing the leather to the wood? I used 3M spray adhesive, and it's not good at all -- edges are peeling off, etc.. I'll try your suggestion of roughing up the smooth side before applying adhesive.

[chris carter]

Chris, what type of glue do you use for gluing the leather to the wood? I used 3M spray adhesive, and it's not good at all -- edges are peeling off, etc.. I'll try your suggestion of roughing up the smooth side before applying adhesive.

I have use contact cement, TBIII, Elmers Glue-all, and TB liquid hide glue. They all work for gluing leather to wood. I prefer the PVAs and LHG because it's easier. Definitely rough up the smooth side - you can use a knife to scrape it or a rasp or whatever. I'm very familiar with 3M Super77. It is great stuff for certain applications - and YES, it does lose it's adhesion over time so it should never be used for anything permanent.

[steven c newman]

Mine just uses the leather nail bag from my old Carpenter's nail apron.....the leather belt is the strop I use. I just cut enough of the nail bag to cover the inside face of the chop....

[Tom Bender]

About 5 years ago I installed leather only to the top 2" and never needed more. Installed it a little proud of the top, clamped tight and planed smooth. Way better than trying to cut it perfectly with a knife either before or after gluing in place.
448681
The 2" x 1/2" x 27" jaws are removable, held by magnets and a french cleat. The hard maple set never gets used. They are slick and tend to need a crushing grip. The leather grips like an octopus.

[Scott Winners]

You want the hair side probably, with the flesh side scraped down to unform thickness. Dang it, my google fu is failing me. Anyway, much cheaper (likely) to a buy a long thin piece at uniform thickness, rather than a short wide one.


Huh. I got Chris Schwarz's latest workbench book over the New Year. In that book crubber is his second favorite, his first choice for face vise faces is suede, glued down with epoxy. Garment weight suede should be a slam dunk, something like 4-6 ounce thickness I think. I got 9.5 million internet hits in 0.56 seconds.