New Sawstop 3HP PCS or a used 5HP ICS?

[Gabriel Garcia]

I've decided to get back into woodworking after taking a long hiatus. This past Dec, I smashed the tips of my ring and middle fingers on my left hand in a work related accident. Surgeries and pins to reattach my broken finger bone tips to go along with weeks of serious pain got me thinking. I've been out from work for months and looking at my wwing machines gave me a bit of anxiety, knowing now the pain and damage, physically and financially, a hand injury can cause.

That said, I started taking a hard look into buying a brand new PCS 3HP for about $3300 w/tax. Through a friend, I came across a used Industrial CS 5HP single phase for $2500 from a cabinet shop that went out of business. When I went to check it out, the brake cartridge was activated and the saw was definitely used daily. We did end up replacing the brake and got it running. It definitely needs some TLC. Using a dial indicator, it measured .017 across the blade (a good blade) which I'm sure I can get closer to .000 by adjusting the table. With all the shop chit chat with the shop owner, I forgot to measure rotational run-out of the arbor....I'll measure it tomorrow.

I called SS and given the serial#, it's an older model that uses the clear brake. The tech said the older models of the ICS are way over-built...even more so than the current model. Also said the ICS is a whole nother level of a machine.

So I need a little help as I'm undecided....get a shiney new 3HP PCS 36" fence with a warranty for $3300 or get a used 5HP ICS 52" fence for $2500 needing a little love? What would you do?

Thanks in advance for any input

Hopefully you can see the pics in the attached google pics link. BTW, if you see the label on the saw, it says it's a Professional.....early model ICS saws were called the Professional

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z5ss2TxGSrtLW2C29

[Larry Frank]

I would buy the new PCS. But that is just me. If you like the idea of completely going thru the ICS, then buy it.

[Lisa Starr]

Do you want to work on the machine or work using the machine? I enjoy repairing/refurbishing a used machine, if I can purchase it for a price that is commiserate with the work needed. Lots of people don't.

[Greg Parrish]

Is power demand a factor? 3hp runs on 20amp. That 5hp really needs 30amp for what it’s worth.

unless you Just want a project and are going to run it hard, all day long, Id prob just get the new one too for the difference in price. You’d get warranty, new arbor and bearings, new belts, etc. and ready to work right away.

[Brian Tymchak]

[QUOTE=Greg Parrish;3016081
You’d get warranty, new arbor and bearings, new belts, etc. and ready to work right away.[/QUOTE]

I don't know if this true or not, but I would also worry about finding those older brake cartridges. Are they still available from SawStop? Will SS always have those cartridges in stock?

[Greg Parrish]

Sure it's all true except maybe the "ready to work right away". It would take some setup of course, but you wouldn't have to rebuild, rework, or go through in the same way as if you bought one that had been rode hard in a cabinet shop. But good point about the cartridges. If the newer ones don't also fit, then that might be another issue to consider.


I don't know if this true or not, but I would also worry about finding those older brake cartridges. Are they still available from SawStop? Will SS always have those cartridges in stock?

[Dave Mills]

The older clear brakes are available (http://sawstop.3dcartstores.com/Table-Saw-Brake-Cartridge-for-10-Blades-Clear-fits-Model-CB_p_18.html), and since they still make and sell them, I can't imagine that the new ones fit the saw.

I'd get the new 3hp PCS, if it were me, unless you have visions of actually needing the serious beef of that used one.

[mreza Salav]

The 5HP rating is 20.5amp. Chances are you can run the saw on a 20amp circuit without problem unless you start cutting really really thick and fast using the full 5HP (something you wouldn't be able to do with 3HP). Then it would trip the breaker. To replace the circuit to 30amp you would need thicker wire (most likely 10g) and a 30amp breaker.

[Gabriel Garcia]

I added a pic of my electrical panel to the link.

Our house was originally pre-wired for an AC that was never used and he used that circuit for the table saw. It's a 30amp breaker.

I am now leaning toward the new saw

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z5ss2TxGSrtLW2C29

[Robert Maloney]

I have an older ICS actually it is a CB model. This thing is built like a tank. As for the clear brake, Sawstop still sells them and has no intention of stopping. If that is still a concern, Sawstop sells an upgrade kit to retrofit the saw to the newer blue brake. At almost 700lbs the saw is more stable than my unisaw. I too bought my saw from a cabinet shop going out of business. Aside from disassembling it to bring it home. It really wasn't anymore work than setting up a new saw and dialing it in. I have had the saw for about 6 years now and haven't had to do anything besides maintainance. If it were me and the saw didn't really appear to be abused, I would by the ICS and save the money.

[Roger Bull]

I also have an older ICS 5HP and love it. There have been many times I was glad to have the extra power. I would chose the ICS between the two.

[Myles Moran]

Where is your shop? If you need to get the saw up or down and steps or similar, you might not be as happy moving a super heavy ICS in there. If you can back a trailer in to drop the saw off of, I'd save the money and get the ICS. A little elbow grease and it'll be good to go.

[Paul F Franklin]

Having just gone through the assembly and setup of a new PCS, I don't think checking and adjusting the ICS will take any more time than assembly and setup of a new PCS. You will save the assembly time, which is not insignificant, and either way you need to go through all the steps of checking all the alignments and making any necessary adjustments. If you have room for the bigger saw, and can check that the tables are flat and there isn't a lot of runout on the arbor, you'll end up with very nice saw and save some money that can go toward accessories or other tools.

[Steve Mathews]

I would go with the ICS unless it was abused.

[ChrisA Edwards]

The money you save on the ICS, you could buy the refit kit for the safety brake or a couple of the older style safety brakes and then you'd have the best of both worlds.

I recently had my friend, an electrician, swap out a 50A GFCI breaker for a normal one in my main panel, as my new lathe with VFD was tripping it. He put a tester of the line and had me turn on various power tools. I wanted to know if I could run multiple 220v tools, at the same time, on that breaker.

So his load testing showed my 3HP SawStop pulled just shy of 4A, my Hammer A3-31 around 5-6A. Both of these were on the same 20A breaker in the sub panel that's fed from the 50A circuit. Combined the two machines are 7HP. I don't think you will have an issue with the ICS on a 20A circuit.

The A3-31 had a momentary hit of about 60A as it started.

[Gabriel Garcia]

Thanks for all the input! I just checked the arbor on the used ICS and it was probably .0005-.001". The needle just flickered.

Also, I might be able to get it for $2000 as the guy seems to just want to unload it.

My circuit breaker is a 30amp.

I'm still going back and forth. With the new saw I buy piece of mind, with the used saw, I can possibly save $1300 and get a beefier saw. I have to decide by this afternoon if I want to take advantage of the SS promotion of the dust collection or mobile base

[David Kumm]

I have machines dating back to the 1930s and all will be alive when the new stuff dies. Go for the better build if condition is good. No comparison between ICS and PCS but only you know what your needs are. Dave

[Frank Pratt]

For $2000, I'd go for the ICS. Resale value on SawStop is generally quite high.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I have an old ICS 5 hp. I don't think you will be unhappy. If it ran, get it. The electronics won't allow the saw to run if it wasn't 100%. You checked the runout. Use the saved monies to buy some blades and dust collection. If it's old, dust collection is not the best. Well, non existent above the blade for me.
I'm going to assume that if the guy ran a good shop, the machine would NOT have been abused. Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you. Down time is lost money.

Just my $0.02.

[Dave Sabo]

Runout of .0005" is nothing.

$1300 will buy you a lot of mobile bases, dust collection, premium sawblades, and still leave you with lots of dough left for wood.

for $2000 - ICS everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Rod Wolfy]

I have a new PCS, but given that I could buy an ICS for $2k, I'd trade you for it. That is a great deal! As others have said, the machine will not run unless the electronics are all working properly and the mass of the heavier cabinet will make it vibration free. You could even cut down the fence to make it a 36" or put in a router table on that side. The assembly on my PCS was an all day thing. The 5hp alone would be worth the upgrade, but for $1300 cheaper and maybe no sales tax?!

You could likely buy it, shine it up and then resell it on CL for $3k, as they hardly ever come up. Run, don't walk.

[Gabriel Garcia]

Again thanks to everyone for the input. In the end I got royally screwed by the seller. The saw sat unused for 2 years with the brake activated. I negotiated with the guy that I'd buy the new brake (if he reimbursed me, which he did), get it running, and check the arbor. If it checked out ok, I had the first option to buy it. I got it running , fixed the bent door latch, and even cleaned up some splattered paint with acetone. We agreed to a price of $2300 since I did the work to make sure it was working properly, I just had to return with my truck to pick it up at 3pm with tools to break it down for transport. When I returned with my truck, he was gone. His employees were there and said he'd return. I waited a while before he called me. The short of it, he said he was going to hold onto the saw because he forgot he had promised it to one of his long time customers. I couldn't f'n believe it . I tried to stay calm and let him know that it wasn't cool that he was screwing me. He apologized...yadda yadda yadda.

I left, went straight to Woodcraft and bought the 3HP PCS (today was the last day of their promotion). Done deal! I get a new saw and peace of mind that comes in perfect condition with a warranty. To be honest, I was so peeved with the whole situation that I didnt even feel that excitement of buying a new saw. I'm picking it up this weekend and I'm sure I'll be over this whole situation and stoked on the new saw by then.

Thanks again!

[Dave Sabo]

That sux big time. You should have taken your brake module while you were there.

[Greg Parrish]

Based on that info and price, I'd go this route too if you have the power capacity in place. That is a much bigger difference in price and you've now confirmed most of the concern items with your measurements. Regards.

EDIT: Well, I wrote too soon. Just read your last comment and see what happened. That sucks. Sorry to hear that. Some people just are not honorable in this world. Things happen for a reason and I'm sure the new saw will be a joy to own as well.




Thanks for all the input! I just checked the arbor on the used ICS and it was probably .0005-.001". The needle just flickered.

Also, I might be able to get it for $2000 as the guy seems to just want to unload it.

My circuit breaker is a 30amp.

I'm still going back and forth. With the new saw I buy piece of mind, with the used saw, I can possibly save $1300 and get a beefier saw. I have to decide by this afternoon if I want to take advantage of the SS promotion of the dust collection or mobile base

[Mike Henderson]

I'm sorry the guy stiffed you. I had a similar thing happen to me on a large drum sander. I went to the guys place, checked it out, and paid him in cash. Took a picture of him holding the cash. Then went and rented a truck with a lift gate to pick it up.

When I got back the guy said he had changed his mind and backed out on the deal. Gave me my money back but I was out about $100 for the truck rental.

Mike

[Patrick Walsh]

I had a guy do a very simular thing to me with a Martin shaper a few years back.

Unlike you I actually totally lost my shit on him.

What he did was just so dishonest, I have zero tolerance for people that just care of me myself and I. When they do I just can’t help but tell them how big a pos they are. Doesn’t do me any good but I’m pretty passionate that people that suck and are shitty need to suffer the way they make others suffer and not be let off the hook.

Some people let shit go. Not me not so much.

Enjoy the saw. I purchased a used ics years ago in simular condition to the one you got screwed on. It’s been a great saw. For me I could use more Hp and a bigger blade. But that’s not the norm for most. You will enjoy the “New” saw!






Again thanks to everyone for the input. In the end I got royally screwed by the seller. The saw sat unused for 2 years with the brake activated. I negotiated with the guy that I'd buy the new brake (if he reimbursed me, which he did), get it running, and check the arbor. If it checked out ok, I had the first option to buy it. I got it running , fixed the bent door latch, and even cleaned up some splattered paint with acetone. We agreed to a price of $2300 since I did the work to make sure it was working properly, I just had to return with my truck to pick it up at 3pm with tools to break it down for transport. When I returned with my truck, he was gone. His employees were there and said he'd return. I waited a while before he called me. The short of it, he said he was going to hold onto the saw because he forgot he had promised it to one of his long time customers. I couldn't f'n believe it . I tried to stay calm and let him know that it wasn't cool that he was screwing me. He apologized...yadda yadda yadda.

I left, went straight to Woodcraft and bought the 3HP PCS (today was the last day of their promotion). Done deal! I get a new saw and peace of mind that comes in perfect condition with a warranty. To be honest, I was so peeved with the whole situation that I didnt even feel that excitement of buying a new saw. I'm picking it up this weekend and I'm sure I'll be over this whole situation and stoked on the new saw by then.

Thanks again!

[Rod Wolfy]

Wow, that really sucks! You should send him a repair bill for your time & the repairs, then small claims court.

[Steve Mathews]

Sorry to hear what happened but there's something to be learned from the experience. Many of us including myself have received the short end of a deal. My last experience involved an auction transaction that was actually paid for but the seller (through an auction house) refunded my credit card purchase without my knowledge. This was one I wasn't about to let go. Resolution is currently before a small claims court. It should be interesting how it will turn out. On the brighter side of your situation you will have a new saw that I'm sure will bring you a lot of enjoyment. Don't let the experience from an unscrupulous seller ruin it.

[Ronald Blue]

What a bummer that is! As someone said you should have taken the brake cartridge with you. I had a similar deal from someone her a few years ago. They'd listed a stationary disc sander here and it was close enough to go get. I messaged about it a couple times. Then the next message it's sold to someone else. Really??? Someone that was picking up some other things bought it. He couldn't remember if he had promised it to them. Money makes peoples memory do funny things. In general 99% of the people here are great guys. I found the one that wasn't. It obviously sounds like his "good customer" offered more money. Hope the new saw is a joy to use.

[Ben Helmich]

It's no wonder that snake went out of business, huh? Bet he overpromised and underdelivered on a regular basis. You'll enjoy your new saw. Don't be bothered by what happened. It's all on him, not you.