INCRA or Sawstop router lift or other? (PCS tablesaw shopping)

[Ralph E Burns]

I am a hobbyist and have decided to get a router table with INCRA fence. Because I don’t have storage space in my garage for a separate table, I’m looking hard at the Sawstop PCS saw, replacing Dad’s 70-y/o Rockwell, and adding the right-wing router table. It’s a win for storage, and a win to get the incremental fence on both the saw and router. A big win is the PCS folding outfeed table.

I would like to use the router table and INCA fence to make finger and dovetail joints. Sometimes I make weird stuff for work.

For the router lift, I see a few choices:


Sawstop RT-LFT (https://www.sawstop.com/images/uploads/manuals/M_RT-LFT.pdf)
INCRA-MAST-R-LIFT-II (https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Mast_R_Lift_II_p/incra-mast-r-lift-ii.htm) (Jessem lift with INCRA magnetic inserts)
Use the unlifted plain-jane INCRA solid Magnalock RT (https://www.incrementaltools.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MLPALUMINUM) plate I have sitting new in a box (MLP690890-AL (https://www.incrementaltools.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MLPALUMINUM)). I don’t do work this all day long, so could save some dollars or sell it new.

I’m leaning towards the INCRA lift… made in Canada vs Taiwan? Here’s a YouTube comparison (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_oTsKaMTBc) of sorts. I have ordered and am waiting on delivery for a fixed Makita RF1101 router, deciding on Makita over Porter Cable. My other routers are Festool 1400 and Shaper Origin.

I hear the Sawstop feels Taiwanese, although the cast iron top should be fine spec’ed to .010”. Currently, I’m figuring as pictured: 1.75hp (save $ over 3hp?), mobile base, folding outfeed table, and right-side router table (https://www.sawstop.com/resources/img/configurator/saw-images/professional-cabinet-saw_TGP236A_RRT_FOT_MB-PCS-IND.jpg). It will barely fit in my garage storage space.

And then I throw away the Sawstop fences and put on the INCRA TS-LS Fence (https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_TS_LS_Joinery_System_52_Range_p/ls52-ts-wf.htm). Like this poster (https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/incra-rails-on-sawstop-and-incra-ls-fence/msg371824/#msg371824).

There will be some work remounting the Sawstop outfeed table outside the rear INCRA rail, like this (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?271385-SawStop-PCS-Folding-outfeed-Table-and-Incra-TS-LS).

And then I’ll need suggestions for a small mobile dust collector. I have heard that my Festool CT-26 at 137cfm isn’t enough.

Any red flags? Besides that I’ll be broke.

431663
431664
431665

[Robert Chapman]

Get the SawStop Industrial base. It is much better than the Professional base.

[Ralph E Burns]

Get the SawStop Industrial base. It is much better than the Professional base.

Will do...(this picture? (https://www.sawstop.com/resources/img/configurator/saw-images/professional-cabinet-saw_TGP236A_RRT_FOT_MB-PCS-IND.jpg)) Sawstop won't even bundle the PCS base with a right-side router table.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I and a hobbyist also. I bought the SawStop PCS 175 about 4 years ago. Last year I upgraded the saw to the 3HP 220V motor, very pleased with hose easy it was to do and the results. When I bought the saw, I did not have a 220v feed. If I was to buy again, I would opt for the 220v up front.

Also last year, I changed out the system for the Incra TS-LS Positioner and added a router table into the right end of the saw. It takes me about 3 minutes to go from the tablesaw mode to router.

I bought the Incra router table extension and installed a Jessem Master Lift Ii, but swapped out the router top plate for the Incra Magna Lock with Cleansweep inserts.

Although, when I initially bought my saw, I had to move it away from a wall to use it and put it away, in the evening, so the wife could put here car away. The ICS mobile base made this super easy. I put a few duct tape markers down on the garage floor and could roll it and position it perfectly , so the legs on my outfeed table did not need adjusting.

Before I bought the Incra TS-LS fence system, I mad a folding outfeed table and attached to the SawStop outfeed fence rail with a large piano style hinge.

I've since moved and although my saw still sits on the ICS mobile base, I no longer move my saw.

I initially bought my TS-LS positioner in Imperial. Around January 2020, I converted it to metric, which I now use throughout all my tools and much prefer it.

With the router table in the saw, I did buy the support legs from Incra, not sure how well the mobile base works with the extra weight of the router stuck out there.

I did make my own router dust collection box, out of a melamine shelf, an this box makes a good place for the router fence storage when not in use.

The Incra fence rails will provide you with an easy place to attach a folding outfeed table.

This was my folding outfeed table, attached to the Incra fence, after I was not longer using the piano hinge. So you can see that it would be easy to mount a hinge tooth's rail.
https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraTailAbove_zpsxe7wa5lq.jpg

This was the piano hinge I was using (mcMasterCarr)
https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/OutfeedHinge_zpsoujvwsfq.jpg

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/SawStopIncra1_zpsub0ejje6.jpg


https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/SawStopIncra2_zpsegblx5ma.jpg

Router Dust Collection Box
https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraFence2_zps6ykh0rgx.jpg


With front cover on
https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraFence3_zpsa0i37f8g.jpg

Front cover off for access
https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraFence4_zpshk9u8hg1.jpg

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraFence5_zpsjupj9zbu.jpg


If you cannot see the above photos here is a link to most of them https://s1094.photobucket.com/user/cedwards874/slideshow/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence

[Jim Dwight]

I don't know anything about Incra fences. But I like the Bisemeyer style fence on my 1.75hp PCS. I learned the hard way to stick with thin kerf blades, at least for thick cuts. With good (I like Freud) thin kerf blades (including a dedicated ripper) I cut 3 inches deep with a normal feed rate. I think full kerf blades last longer and kind of prefer them but they trip the thermal overload of my saw on deep cuts. Infinity blades were noticably worse than DeWalt or Freud.

My lift is home made and would be hard to use on an extension table setup.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I would like to get your opinions on the Shaper Origin, I'm very close to buying one.

I believe the router lifts, under the Incra name are the Jessum and Woodpeckets. I actually have bothe of these, the jessum in my Sawstop table and the Woodpeckers in a standalone Router cabinet. Of the two, I would probably buy the Jessum version over the Woodpeckers. Both work well, but I'd had to send my Woodpecker back to have the fine adjust gears replaced and the slide rails tend to get a little bunged up with debris and require me to take the whole unit out to clean occasionally.

[Frank Pratt]

Will do...(this picture? (https://www.sawstop.com/resources/img/configurator/saw-images/professional-cabinet-saw_TGP236A_RRT_FOT_MB-PCS-IND.jpg)) Sawstop won't even bundle the PCS base with a right-side router table.

I can see that. The ICS base provides more support for that end of things. I have an Excalibur router lift, which the SawStop lift was cloned from, and it is built like a tank. There are 4 threaded posts that raise and lower a very robust aluminum frame that holds the router motor. I tossed the OEM extension table & made a much more rigid one from 3 layers of 18mm Baltic birch.

[Andy D Jones]

A few thoughts...

I have a 3HP Unisaw (early '90's bought new), after a ~1.5 HP Craftsman from the late 80s. I would not go with <3HP on a 10" saw again. Especially on one as expensive as a SS. I would not trade that much HP for SS's safety system.

I have the Rockler Bench Dog router extension wing, which appears virtually identical to the SS extension (and included fence), except on two points:

1. The opening for the insert/lift on the Bench Dog extension is narrower than many insert/lifts, but Rockler sells a slimmer version of the same Incra lift you are wanting, that is made just for Rockler tables. I have it, am extremely happy with it, and recommend it highly (regardless of whether you go with the SS or Bench Dog extension).

2. The Bench Dog extension has dual slots for mounting the fence, which lets you mount the fence on either side of the bit. This lets you use the entire length of your table saw and opposite extension wing to support long work pieces, such as when milling tenons on the ends of bed rails. Note that if you mount the router extension on the right end, with the fence on the inboard side of the bit, you will normally work from the rear and/or end of the saw. If you choose the bench dog extension, and want to work from the front (or use the whole saw table for support), then mount the fence on the outboard side of the bit. My Unisaw is right-tilt, so I have mine on the left end, and unless I need the extra support length, I work from the front & left end of the saw with the fence inboard of the bit.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[ChrisA Edwards]

Here's a quick video of me using the router table to cut the beads on each edge of the Stiles for my Plantation Shutters. Notice the lack of debris from the cut. What does come out, at one point, is the debris from the mortise. I have the router fence connected to a 2.5" hose and the router box, below, connected to a 4" hose, both going to my Dust Collector


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=app7MQ_Y4zk&amp;feature=youtu.be

[Ralph E Burns]

Howdy and thanks all!

@ ChrisA: I want to be your clone! And I actually linked to photos of yours in my post #1. Answer about Shaper Origin: I’m not convinced it’s great for a real woodworker, but good for organic curves and such. The ability to hold tolerance over distance might be not as advertised (stay tuned). See my post here (https://community.shapertools.com/t/workstation-for-critique/3663/27?u=ralph2).

I’ll look into getting a full-length L-angle for mounting the INCRA rear rail, but using a longer bottom leg to remount the SS outfeed table. Will need to measure up and investigate. It kinda bugs me that the fence rail is supported by only a few brackets.

Question: are there issues with a bare metal INCRA fence and the SS brake sensor?

@ Frank Pratt: Did you start with the cast iron SS right router table RT-TGP and toss that in favor of homemade? I’d like to know if the SS cast iron router table is worth buying (especially since I’ll overpay and toss the SS router fence).

Y’all are all about power! I was trying to save money going with the 1.75hp. The local Woodcraft store suggested that 1.75hp would be okay if not doing thick hardwoods, and my buddy got a PCS 175 a few months ago and is happy. Though I would overheat Dad’s old 1hp Rockwell (http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1840.pdf) and just paid to have the motor rebuilt (& added Vega fence). I do have 220/1ph available right next to the saw in the garage; I added it a couple years ago for a Grizzly G0640X bandsaw (https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-17-2-HP-Metal-Wood-Bandsaw-w-Inverter-Motor/G0640X). If I keep buying bigger toys, then I’ll never retire! This SS + INCRA is a chunk of coin!

I reckon to either get the INCRA router lift (https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Mast_R_Lift_II_p/incra-mast-r-lift-ii.htm) or just use the unlifted INCRA plate (https://www.incrementaltools.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MLPALUMINUM) I already have(?). Unless it‘s worth getting a motorized digital readout one? And I’ll just get the SS RT-DCB router dust collector box (https://www.amazon.com/SawStop-RT-DCB-Downdraft-Collection-Router/dp/B07GZJWCSS), because the holes will line up without too much brain damage.

*** I'd love suggestions for small, stowable dust collectors. Maaaybe something akin to this Grizzly G0583Z (https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-1-HP-Canister-Dust-Collector/G0583Z), except fitted with a hard bucket instead of plastic trash bag, an a bonus for HEPA.

Cheerio - Ralph in Colorado

[Frank Pratt]

@ Frank Pratt: Did you start with the cast iron SS right router table RT-TGP and toss that in favor of homemade? I’d like to know if the SS cast iron router table is worth buying (especially since I’ll overpay and toss the SS router fence).

*** I'd love suggestions for small, stowable dust collectors. ???

Cheerio - Ralph in Colorado

I built my table before SawStop came out with their router lift or the cast extension table for it. But in a case of really bad timing, just as I finished my table, a local tool store was clearing out old Excalibur stock & had the cast iron extension table on for $99, down from over $400. Oh well.

I don't know of a small collector that would work with a table saw. They need lots of volume. I guess it would depend on your definition of small & stowable. I've heard that a shop vac works well for the blade guard collection though.

Nothing I've read about the Incra fences has convinced me that they are worth having. Too many downsides, cost being one, but the biggest thing is that it renders the entire right table saw extension completely useless for anything but holding the fence hardware.

[ChrisA Edwards]

With the SawStop, with power to the saw, but the blade not powered on, you can test items against the blade by touching the blade. If they are conductive, the red LED light will come on. If I need to rip something which is questionable, I just use the saw in the override mode with the safety brake turned off.

Yes the Incra Fence will trip the SawStop if it comes into contact with the blade while the saw is running, but why would it? I've ripped 1/8" strips with it. I actually zero my Incra Fence this way, move the fence until the SawStop Red LED comes on, which indicate the fence is just kissing the blade, then I adjust the ruler scale under the cross hair.

I think more people tend to trip the SawStop when they using an Incra miter gauge, change the angle, and don't adjust the fence position.

True, the TS-LS positioner does take up some real estate on the right side of the fence, but to me, that means I'm just a bit better organized with less clutter on that side.

If for whatever you need the entire table surface, without the fence, 4 handscrews allow you to take the fence off in about 30 seconds. The rails have registration bolts that allow you to align it accurately when you put it back. Mine had registration bolts for the fence in saw mode and another set for router mode.

With the way the Positioner locks in place when you clamp it, I know my fence is always set exactly where I want it. It's like when you register a miter gauge or saw adjust a preset stop, you know that tool is where you want it, same it true of every increment on the Positioner. The only extra step is a quick quarter turn of a thumbscrew to lock the fence, but this becomes a habit real quickly.

I thought the SawStop fence was good quality, but I would not go back to it. Being able to cut something and then being able to come back and cut that same exact width, several operations later, with precision accuracy, just gives you such confidence and pleasure using the tool.

[Ralph E Burns]

I'm a numbers guy, working as a solo mechanical design engineer, so maybe that's why I'm attracted to numerical scales, and attracted to the INCRA. I work both metric and inches with hardly any notice.

All that is holding me off is needing to figure out exactly what to order from INCRA (shopping is a time burn!). I want to revisit a PCS saw in person, do some measurements and see about full-length mounting angles to the saw table. Might that help keep all the sections joined flat? Also full-length front and rear rails. And I ought to read thru the LS-TS manual; questions like can I put the fence on the right side of the router so long work is supported by the table? The technical help Mark at INCRA is a goldmine. Then it's three months lead time for INCRA, but only a short time from Sawstop.

From INCRA, get the TS-LS, extra mounting hardware, router lift, and will look at their miter gauges (ChrisA - which miter?)
From Sawstop, a 3hp PCS, ICS base, folding outfeed table, right router table, and router dust box.
And a dust collector. Looking for one that rolls around on a sturdy base, has pleated 1 micron or better pleated filter on top and trash bucket on bottom... seeking an improved Grizzly G0583Z (https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-1-HP-Canister-Dust-Collector/G0583Z).

Stay safe - Ralph in Colorado (fire/EMT)

[Prashun Patel]

If you are willing to invest in an INCRA and Sawstop set up, i humbly suggest you get a larger, cyclone dust collector. I'd get that before even a router lift or even a fancy fence like the LS positioner (both of which I *love*).

There are roll-around cyclones that can fit your space (Grizzly even has a couple; I have been happy with Oneida too). A cyclone unit with a 1.5+hp motor will grow with you a little more than a 1hp unit.

[Frank Pratt]

As far as accuracy and repeatability go, for about a hundred bucks you can put a DRO on the fence. I got one because I sometimes have trouble focusing on the cursor & rule lines. The DRO solved that problem and allows me to exactly repeat a cut later if I need to.

A 2 stage collector, with a cyclone & HEPA filter is lots better than single stage. Saves you from cleaning filters every time (or more frequently) the bin is emptied. Oneida makes a smaller roll around collector that might work for you. Check out their website.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have the Incra 1000HD, which is very good, but for 99% of cross cutting, I use a cross cut sled. The Incra 1000HD comes out when I need to cut an angle on the end of a piece of wood.

The Incra system comes with a full length front and rear rail, neither are carrying much load. I was concerned about the 4 places the rails attach to the cast iron table, but you can buy extra L brackets ($16) and beef that up to be pretty much the same mount points as the L channel of the OEM rail mount.

I did find out, the difference between the 32" and the 52" Incra system is just the table rails being 20" longer, The arm for the TS-LS positioner is the same length, so to do a wider rip cut, you have to move the base of the TS-LS positioner. Not a huge deal as you would have a set of reference stops for each position.

I looked it this, as I figured I could get about a 42" rip comfortably where my saw sits now. But I can actually achieve this with what I currently have as the central arm is the same for both lengths.

Personally, I would skip the SawStop outfeed table and make you own. The Incra rails offer a much easier attachment point than the OEM rear rail.

For Dust Collection, I bought a mobile dust collector, but for less than $100, I ran Schedule 20 6" sewar pipe to a couple of drops with blast gates. When I moved house I removed it. Being lightweight, I just had to sparkle a few mount holes.

One thing you mentioned was using the router table, if I understand it, moving work parallel to the front rail, so you would have the support of the entire table.

My thought of this, you would have a vey short infeed support to the router bit and a massive support on the outfeed side. Using it right end, as in my video, you get reasonable support for both infeed and outfeed, but you could also slide your folding outfeed, along the fence rail, to provide extra table support and in theory, you could make a mini folding outfeed table that you could attach to the front rail when needed. You can see in my video, my current outfeed table is on casters and I actually rolled it down to provide extra infeed support for the long peices I was cutting.

[woody dixon]

Chris,

I am particularly interested in the router dust box. How does the knob at the top work to keep the door in place? Perhaps a picture of the part with the door off also. Nice work.

Woody Dixon

[ChrisA Edwards]

It is held in place by magnets

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraFence3_zpsa0i37f8g.jpg


Back side of the door

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraFence7_zpsynyznzhu.jpg

You can see the cabinet magnets on the bottom, these also help the door align
https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/IncraFence4_zpshk9u8hg1.jpg

[David Buchhauser]

I am using the Kreg router lift along with the Rockler dust bucket. Both work great - I'm very impressed with the fit, finish, and functionality of both.
David

https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-PRS5000-Precision-Router-Lift/dp/B079YY98N1

https://www.rockler.com/dust-bucket-dust-collection-kit-for-router-tables

[Ben Helmich]

I have a 3HP saw and love it. The only issue I have with it is if you rearrange your shop for any reason the 220V outlet is a problem. Unless you put 220V outlets all over. The 1.75HP saw has a normal 125V 15A plug on it (I think.) I’m in a two car garage and it seems like every time I bring a new tool home I have to move everything around.

[Ralph E Burns]

Hello & I gotta say thanks for all this SMC forum input. Y'all have been great. Remember I'm not a real woodworker...

Question for all and @ Prashun Patel, @ Frank Pratt: Do you think this 1hp Oneida Cobra (https://www.oneida-air.com/contractor-tools/industrial-vacuums/dust-cobra-full-unit-hepa-2-stage-vacuum) @ 245cfm will be sufficient? I'll struggle to make space for the 1.5hp Oneida Mini-Gorilla (https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-collectors/personal-shops/mini-gorilla/1-5-hp-mini-gorilla-cyclone-dust-collector) @ 583cfm, AND there's a open-box Oneida Cobra (https://images.craigslist.org/00e0e_aGizvwjusY3_1200x900.jpg) that I can get locally at a discount. Sawstop recommends 350cfm.

Today I visited my buddy who got a 1.75hp PCS a few months ago, and brought along one of my baddest examples for power cut: a 1-3/4" thick piece of maple butcherblock. The power from his saw seemed fine. While I overloaded Dad's old Rockwell saw a zillion times, I think that was because I had only one blade that was always getting dull in the middle of a project. That is solved by owning two good blades, plus I now have a 17" bandsaw for ripping thick stuff. A call to Sawstop revealed that the upgrade price is $500 later, which isn't that exorbitant compared to the $430 upgrade paid upfront on a new purchase. Although I do have 220V in the garage now, that voltage could be a PIA if I move (like into my basement). Plus, can't I always feed slower if the blade bogs down? Good choice? Bad choice?

I'll read the INCRA TS-LS (http://www.incrementaltools.com/TS_LS_Combo_1_p/tscombo-1.htm) manual tonight before ordering. Something I would like to get are front & rear rails that are a minimum of 67-3/4" long, which is the same width of the saw table. I may be able to buy my own L-angle (https://www.mcmaster.com/8982k127/) to mount both the INCRA rear rail and the SS outfeed table at once.

So far I'm thinking: 1.75 hp 110V PCS, ICS mobile base, 36" T-glide just to be safe, folding outfeed table, and I can order the cast iron router table (RT-C27), cast iron middle insert table (RT-ICW) and router switch (RT-PSW) without ordering the Sawstop router fence and save $190, and add a Sawstop Router Dust Collection box (RT-DCB).

Add either a 1/8" Forrest Woodworker II (https://www.forrestblades.com/woodworker-ii-all-purpose-saw-blade-for-table-saws/), 3/32" Thin-Kerf Woodworker II (https://www.forrestblades.com/woodworker-ii-thin-kerf/), or what's this Modified ATB-R Forrest (https://www.forrestblades.com/woodworker-ii-modified/) in either 1/8" or 3/32"? Greek to me, but website says modified gives faster feed with less side scoring (is the downside that it dulls faster?). I have 9" Thin-Kerf Woodworker II on Dad's old 1hp Rockwell.

And the INCRA router lift (https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Mast_R_Lift_II_p/incra-mast-r-lift-ii.htm) and a dust collector that minimizes footprint.

My buddies saw did have a blade burnishing / burning problem. His fence has a .006" waviness, while the saw blade angles left about .002", so a .004" pinch at blade back. It would would always burn the first part of the butcherblock rip, slower feed making the burn worse, and on only the first half of the board. Here's a pic from feeding as fast as I was comfortable.

431865
431866

[Ralph E Burns]

BTW I ordered:
- 3hp PCS, to play it safe power-wise.
- INCRA fence. I already received the INCRA router lift and am using in in a temporary table.

Thanks all for the guidance.

[Michael Drew]

As far as accuracy and repeatability go, for about a hundred bucks you can put a DRO on the fence. I got one because I sometimes have trouble focusing on the cursor & rule lines. The DRO solved that problem and allows me to exactly repeat a cut later if I need to.

A 2 stage collector, with a cyclone & HEPA filter is lots better than single stage. Saves you from cleaning filters every time (or more frequently) the bin is emptied. Oneida makes a smaller roll around collector that might work for you. Check out their website.

I'd like to see your DRO. Is it a Wixey, or other? I've been wondering just how to install one on my Incra TS fence.

[Will Blick]

Ralph, very impressed with your analytical approach to your buy. Very smart, as you have learned, much of this stuff like Incra is often back ordered quite long and you cant easily return a SS at Walmart for an upgrade.

I have the Incra LS set up on PM2k, with WP router table and WP lift. I can not comment on the which lift is the best, as its the only when I ever used. I do like the ability to make micro height adjustments with ease right at the table top...thats an option I would consider mandatory. There is even an electric version I would prefer now ;) The incra system is so versatile and useful, and with your technical expertise, you will master it in short time... for exact cuts and repeatability, it cant be beat. But for work that is not super critical
(say .01"?) standard TS Fences are more than sufficient. Incra takes precision to a new level. I am sure you are aware, the process of making joints on Incra is quite cumbersome vs. a jig, but it does offer greater versatility in the joint layout ...considering your technical expertise, you can make it work better than most users, who get frustrated with the set up and constant re positioning of the fence.

As for dust collection, as others have pointed out, you cant have enough. The router table can have so many ports to grab it all, a vac wont suck as well as a cyclone. I use a 2hp Laguna PFlux cycline AND my Festool Vac for adequate dust removal. For the TS, I also use both, the festool for top collection and the cyclone for bottom.

Since you are so well versed at CAD, I thought the Shaper Origin might be an option for you. I was intrigued by their recent push into the joinery field with their side attachment. But I wondered how such a system can have the accuracy for tight joints whereas precision is measured at least .001" or better. While the SO is brilliant and well executed product with great appeal for doing large work and folding it away, it seems precision work would be a rough go. I read your SO post you linked to, and it appears you had this exact issue.

However when I watch the SO videos with the jointer attachment, it seems they might have mastered it? I realize its a sales video, but if you could maybe shed some light on this, as you obvious have great experience at this. I am just curious your reasons for eliminating the SO for joinery, as it does seem like a great fit for you. Spend your time in CAD, then whip out the joint, vs the long set up of and tedious process of Incra joinery, which can be prone to human error as soo many movements are required for each joint.


Great saw selection of course, but for me, I would not get the 1.75hp, unless you can get away with a thin kerf blade. The wider blades in hard and or thick woods will bog down the motor, forcing a slower feed rate, creating wood burn, forcing another clean up operation. 3HP IMO is the sweet spot for a TS, only the hardest and very thick boards will challenge, in which case, a 5hp is the better solution...but my guess, 99% of cuts made on TS's dont need 5Hp.

[hugh lonner]

I have the 3hp PCS with the sawstop router table and dust collection box, but substituted in the incra Mast-R-Lift. It works really well. I just slide the dust collector I use on the saw over to the SS dust collection box and am amazed at the lack of dust. I use the dust right fittings so it is super easy to swap the hose over. I don't find the SS as big an upgrade over the cheap table saw I had before as I'd expected, but the router table and lift are by far my favorite part and they really impress me.

[Ralph E Burns]

@Will Blick : I do have time on the Shaper Origin. I hoped that it would provide me with adequate finger joints. Stay tuned, but thus far it has not by any stretch. I will be trying more finger-jointed boxes in a few days (37" long). Last box was a disappointment with .07" or .08" SO error. I had thought that I wanted a router table, so one thing has led to another and I'm adding the SS router table + INCRA to that 3hp SS (space saver). Lots sentimentality with Dad's 1950's(?) Rockwell that I grew up with; two generations of kid's toys and office desks. I did get the INCRA Jessem router lift two days ago and have put it to use on a temporary table. If the rest of the INCRA stuff turns out that nice then I'll be tickled.

Dust... how many CFM's is enough? SawStop said 350cfm is an ideal target. Space is a premium in my 2-car garage... it's used for the car! I'd have to remove some wall shelving to erect a dust collector. BTW, Dad's dust collector was a cardboard box under the saw. :-)

I'm not interested in a dust collector that doesn't do 1 micron or better filtering; think HEPA E12 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA#Specifications)? Many of you have Oneida... and there's budget Grizzly (https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-1-HP-Wall-Mount-Dust-Collector-with-Canister-Filter/G0785) and Rockler (https://www.rockler.com/canister-filter-for-rockler-1250-cfm-wall-mount-dust-collector) pieces (https://www.rockler.com/rockler-wall-mount-dust-collector-1250-cfm). I like the footprint of this quieter $1100 Oneida Dust Cobra (https://www.oneida-air.com/contractor-tools/industrial-vacuums/dust-cobra-full-unit-hepa-2-stage-vacuum) but it lists at only 245cfm (and there's a one listed locally on Craigslist (https://images.craigslist.org/00e0e_aGizvwjusY3_1200x900.jpg)). The next step at 580cfm 1.5hp Mini-Gorilla (https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-collectors/personal-shops/mini-gorilla/1-5-hp-mini-gorilla-cyclone-dust-collector) is more of a space challenge, and the one that looks killer is big bucks, 5hp SuperCell (https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-collectors/new-systems/supercell/supercell-high-pressure-14-gal-hepa-cyclone-dust-collector).

Choices, $$ and space and amps. What is the sweet spot?

[Will Blick]

Hi Ralph, understood on the space issue, that of course complicates things a lot. A few suggestions for you to chew on....
As you prob. know.... the greater the filtration requirement, such as 1 micron, the greater the resistance the moving air is confronted with, and therefore, it will generate less CFM at the router. I like your 1 micron requirement, I too am a dust fanatic, its the particles under 5 microns that causes the most harm to our health. Therefore, each time you increase the CFM requirement at the machine, and at the filtration the size of dust collector motor and cyclone size grows by the power of 4 ;)
One suggestion is.... do the best you can with dust collection with a small system, but wear a good respirator, which beats any dust collection. The fine particles settle rather quickly after a procedure. A dust meter will demonstrate this to you. Vac things up shortly thereafter. You dont have to use the respirator forever. Remember, even with the best dust collection, on things like a router table, certain cuts will always produce escaped dust regardless how well you designed your dust collection. The rare exception is, if maybe you alter the dust collection set up for nearly every type of cut. I know you have done a lot of work and are not a newb, but not everyone is aware of the dust in the air during procedures, even with good dust collection. And considering you will do more procedures like sanding, even with Festool set up, which does the best job of dust collection, the small particles we fear are still in the air we breathe, so respirator is still mandatory if you have a serious dust concern like you do.

My second suggestion is, and I feel is the BEST of for health and budget...is to follow the Bill Pentz method on NOT filtering the cyclone waste, but instead exhausting it directly outside. Tons of info on the web if you have not yet found it. I used this for 10 yrs. I am not sure this is possible in your situation, as you must consider some outdoor noise (which a custom low cost muffler can reduce 90%) and sucking out air which you must then heat / cool the new introduced air. Most cyclones will capture particles greater than 15-20 microns, with the smaller dangerous particles being exhausted outside, which are of course invisible to the eye. This GREATLY increases the CFM at the machine, and will allow you to get a much smaller cyclone. Its hard to compare cyclones when they all have different filtration values, so its not that easy.

Next, consider a ceiling mount cyclone such as Rockler and Penn Industries makes a nice unit that is on the quiet side and can be ceiling mounted, but you add your own cyclone. this will remove the footprint from the floor, and prevent the storage issue. If you can exhaust the waste outside, you would best accomplish all your objectives...

As for the SO, I am sure you have seen their video on the joinery accessory they sell (I am unsure if you used that added accessory in your failed test, pls share) and the making of dovetail joints. They fit like a glove in the video. For many ww's, that is an appealing option, i.e. a joinery machine in which most of the work is done in CAD vs. on the cutting jig itself, while at the same time, a tool that can perform large scale CNC work. Then, when completed it takes up no floor space. If it worked, it would be a massive breakthrough in ww and provide tremendous value to ww's.

However, as I mentioned, when I see how the machine finds its bearings, which is quite novel and impressive and obviously can work very well for things like signage, I had my doubts it would ever deliver accuracy sufficient for super precision joints. I also found it hard to believe they would produce a sham video on their website to sell the joiner accessory. Hence what interested me about your experience. So any additional input you can share with us, would be greatly appreciated, as like many of us, you appreciate precision.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I drank the Coolaid and have bought the Shaper Origin and ordered the Workstation. I expect I'll receive the SO later this week, but the Worlstation is not shipping until around September.

I watched a lot of SO Youtube videos and have been on their last two live demonstrations. Th first live demo, I saw, they cut finger joints and butterflies as inserts to brace cracks. Both were done live so they convinced me, enough, to spend close to the price of my Sawstop, that this will perform accurately.

I wonder if the choice of bits and the actual material, being cut, has a major factor on the success of the operation.

I'll be using this on plywood and well as solid stock so we'll see.

[Will Blick]

Congrats Chris!!
I think that is why they do the live demos, more convincing eliminates any editing ;)
I wanted to see the live demos, but work got in the way.
The joint precision was scary good in the recorded demo.
Of course, quality bits would matter, as the CNC assumes a certain diameter, angle, etc. Run out in the bearings matter, all the same things for CNC I would think.
More importantly, the domino layout, or even domino dot size is prob. the biggest factor for precision, as its those dominos that give the router its exact location. A truly brilliant product IMO. Hopefully by the time they start shipping the joinery accesory they will continue to fine tune all these details....so even newbs will have the required success to turn the SO into the super value tool that will assure its place as a staple for limited space ww's.
Not to hijack the thread, but did u buy it for joinery primarily, or for the larger CNC tasks?

[ChrisA Edwards]

Not to hijack the thread, but did u buy it for joinery primarily, or for the larger CNC tasks?

I wanted a full 4x4 minimum gantry CNC, but that looked like a $7000+ proposition. Being new to the whole idea of CNC, and also just a hobbyist, I don't really have a need for one other than as a toy. For doing small stuff, making jigs, small wood signs, I figured the SO would be a suitable tool.

[Will Blick]

There is tens of thousands of us that feel the same as you!
IMO, the joinery option if perfected, will push this product into the mainstream for our type, hardcore hobbyist, with limited floor space who desire multi application use for a tool. Complex tools that get little use, are often hard to re acclimate yourself to all the tools rules, nuisances, etc.
BTW, did the early adapters get a discount?
this is becoming the new norm for specialized tools in the ww field, sell them before they are made.

[Ralph E Burns]

Hello, hello, hello and 1, 2, 3:


I know you have done a lot of work and are not a newb...

1. Dispel any notion that I'm anything other than a novice! I would like to up the skillset and make tip-top cabinets for the campervan... some foam-core vacuum-bagged curvy things. Partly to honor Dad, and partly just driven that way - which is why work hasn't started!


follow the Bill Pentz method on NOT filtering the cyclone waste, but instead exhausting it directly outside.

2. Aha... vent to the outdoors! I didn't understand until your writing that the particles exhausted to outdoors are small and the big chips vortex into the dust bin. I live in a cabin (not really) in the woods (1 acre, shared driveway). The closest thing to the side of the garage is the hot tub on a deck about 25’ away. The point about sucking out heated air is a bugger…. It’s often @#%$#& cold in the garage here at 6,600 Colorado feet. There’s a tiny 65 sq. ft. shop adjoining the garage with electric heat and workbenches for working on smaller stuff. In winter, I’ll draft the electric shop heat from the shop into the garage, light a small propane heater, and leave the door to the house open (bachelor style). Car back in at night.

The garage outlet has 30A, single phase 220V and 20A 110V. The Sawstop will already draw 13A 220V. More pleasant to avoid doing electrical upgrades… the Bill Pentz 5hp Cyclone draws 21A 220V (https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/cv1800-series/25-cv1800-lh-single-phase-no-filters.html). Are there other turnkey ones? Or is the route DIY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v5079FPCsY) with a quality 2-3hp impeller (who’s???) plus a cyclone like Dust Deputy (https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-deputy/dust-collector-kits)?

Yea, yea, there’s health and yea I should pay attention, tho my primary objective is to have a clean shop so when I HVLP spray finish then it’s not a weekend of murder trying to eliminate dust. I do have a half-dozen Festools and their dust extractor (137cfm).


I drank the Coolaid and have bought the Shaper Origin and ordered the Workstation.

3. The Shaper Origin fills a niche. The personal question is which one? I built a real nice SO workstation before Shaper offered one. Mine is 48” wide, and see the post, my trials in post #26 and current 37” work box project post #38 (https://community.shapertools.com/t/workstation-for-critique/3663). Here’s my take: The SO is vision-guided and some accuracy over short distances, but because it stitches together many images to scan a larger taped area, an optical parallax error accumulates. So while I’m able to get a light press-fit in small parts with a few thousandths clearance, I got maybe 1/16” or 2mm error in the finger joints over 37” (would drive a fella to spend for INCRA). It is not a result of router bits, or feed rate, because I’m taking finishing cuts of .005” and on the first box designed in .01” glue line. I’ve got seven more of these boxes to build and get out of my life, so stay tuned. If I use the same scan and setup for all mating parts then perhaps the error will be matched between parts for an easy fit and I’ll be none the wiser.

SO’s own workstation might offer different possibilities than mine, and perhaps I should have sat thru the entirety of the last live streamed demo. It might be more accurate to index parts than use a big wide scan.

Here’s a point of comparison; I used the SO to inlay the new router lift into a piece of Baltic birch to make a temporary shaper table while waiting for the SS table. The router lift measured 9.2475” x 11.7475” with calipers, so I drew 9.25” x 11.75” inlay hole to cut with SO. The 9.25” was front-back and 11.75” left-right with SO tape out front, always 100% tape health meter. I had to add maybe .005” or so left-right (I forget), and about .025” front-back. And that’s stepping up about .002” per cut and try.


432703
432704

[Will Blick]

Interesting take on the SO...time will tell on this...
maybe long joints can be problematic as it must overlay scan views of the dominos as you suggest...more room for error vs. doing a 6" box joint.

As for the Bill Pentz method... I was only referring to his premise of exhausting cyclone waste outside. He pushes this as the FIRST option, as he took in lots of super fine dust particles and ended up with serious lung disease. His white papers on the subject are a must read for anyone concerned about lung health for ww. I am grateful for the education he provided me and many other ww's. All good cyclones will operate similar, i.e. it will exhaust invisible particles. I realize you will add some heating costs, but you wont require the cost of major hepa filters, cleaning them, replacing them, etc. I think u will find with fine dust vs. shavings, a 1 micron filter will get clogged quite often. The more they get clogged, the greater the suction loss. So if you do go the HEPA filter route, be sure to get one with the manual clean system, otherwise, you have to remove the large filter and brush the interior, vac it, air gun, which also creates a ton of fine dust you must contend with. EVen with the manual clean system, you still need to take it off and clean it as I stated above, but much less often. These 1 micron filters perform much better with shavings, such as a jointer vs. router dust which is not heavy enough to fall, so it easily passesto the to the filter and clings. And trust me, you can get 3x the suction at the machine from the same HP cyclone if you exhaust outside vs. a 1 micron filter, and that is with a clean filter. Since u have limited power as well, u may want to enter that into your decision equation. Lots of cyclone makers out there, including home made systems on ebay, they come in all sizes. You can mix n match a cyclone with a fan system, or buy a complete system.

IF possible, I prefer get a cyclone with turning vanes in it, which is on the Pentz system, but maybe others too, not sure. I find the turning vanes is the key to pushing waste down into the waste bin vs. continuously swirling in the cyclone till you turn off the cyclone.... again, the continuous swirling sends more dust towards the filter. And if you can hang it high on the wall, sometimes limited or no foot print loss based on your ceiling height.

Not trying to push you one way or another, just sharing my 15 yrs experience with many different dust collection issues in several shops.
Also, a room dust collector mounted near the ceiling should be mandatory if you plan to use the same space for finishing.... you gotta get the dust out of the air, as no system will collect 100%.
Hope this helps...

[Andrew Pitonyak]

When I added my router, SawStop did not offer a lift. So, I did the following:



Purchase a router lift.
Create my own template and route a hole in the side table that came with my sawstop.
Re-enforce the the top so that it would not sag with the extra weight.
Build a box for dust collection
Attach an external power switch


How many of these steps are automated if you use their router table? As it is, I do not have a router table fence as I would like. I made one, but I clamp it to the sawstep fence. it works, but, it is not great.

SO just decide how much work you want to do on your own. What I like about the SawStop (based on a cursory glance) is that much has already been done for you and their instructions are usually top notch.

None of this looks at how easily thing adjust, or, how much inserts cost. Some companies have expensive inserts and some are much less expensive.

[Ralph E Burns]

@Will Blick: I'm sold on the outside vent. Thanks!!! Want to figure out a modest-current one that I can power without an electrical upgrade. Not sure where to turn for that yet.

@Andrew Pitonyak: I ordered all five of your checklist instead of DIY.

[ChrisA Edwards]

A friend electrician measured my 220v 3P Sawstop at around 3-4A when running.

I was concerned about running my Hammer A3-31 J/P and the SawStop off the same 30A circuit, at the same time, so while he was swapping out a 50A GFCI for a regular 50A, he put his load tool on and measured the draw while I powered various machines on and off. With both machines running I wa pulling around 8A to 9A. The J/P, being 4HP, had the heavier draw.

Thanks for the info on the Shaper Origin.

[Ralph E Burns]

Anybody have a Bill Pentz Clearvue Cyclone (https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/)? And a clampmeter? @Will Blick?

I'm hoping to get a measurement of the nominal current draw for that 5hp 220V single phase motor, without the torque draw of downstream filters, just exhausting to the outdoors. Understood that YMMV due to ducting, but that'd at least give a point of reference for a possible CV1800 purchase.

Cheerio! - Ralph

[Will Blick]

I no longer have the clearview up n running, as I moved out of that shop....
Now use a Laguna P with filters hate it... just temporary.
but IIRC, about 22amps at 240V...if you pull 220V, u will of course, pull more amps, its linear.
I had lots of 8inch ducting...
Call ClearVue, they are very helpful and know their products well... they might have start using a more efficient motor which will effect the numbers even more...or even a more efficient fan impeller.
Beware of electrical upgrade, there is often many "gotchas" attached to those.... but if your main service is big enough, its also something to consider.

[Will Blick]

Since you are still at the exploratory stage, and space is an issue....
if your garage borders outside, and its not an eye sore based on your house layout...
you can build a room outside your garage wall, enclose the cyclone and waste bin. Then exhaust inside the room, which then exits outside... Clearvue has a nice drawing of this set up somewhere on their web site....it will benefit you twofold, if you build the room soundproof, the room acts as your muffler...and with no duct run to get to the outside, you will draw even less power, as most applications still need to duct outside.

[Frank Pratt]

Anybody have a Bill Pentz Clearvue Cyclone (https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/)? And a clampmeter? @Will Blick?

I'm hoping to get a measurement of the nominal current draw for that 5hp 220V single phase motor, without the torque draw of downstream filters, just exhausting to the outdoors. Understood that YMMV due to ducting, but that'd at least give a point of reference for a possible CV1800 purchase.

Cheerio! - Ralph

The real world current draw of a 5 HP single phase motor will be anywhere from 10 A - 22 A. It will depend a little on the motor itself, but a lot on how much static pressure loss there is from ducting & filters. Going with no filters will increase the airflow and the motor current.

[Ralph E Burns]

I'm going to try and stick with the existing 30A single-phase breaker for both the 3hp SS and dust extractor. Today's static voltage measures 244VAC and it's a 10GA wiring run unless upgraded.

I'm working along the lines that motor torque is proportional to current, and exploring to see if the Clearvue 5hp motor will run much less than full current load since I'll use no exhaust filter. Understood that the ducting will be an unknown... just trying to get in the general ballpark and assuming that a filter is the big load. Clearvue thus far hasn't provided a nominal current when there is no exhaust filter (I suspect they will play it conservative and avoid that question). They did say that their impeller requires 4hp and they oversized to ensure that the motor was not operating near capacity.

Optimal would be: 3hp SS + Clearvue 5hp on the existing breaker. Just don't start both simultaneously. Obviously this is pushing it.

Compromise would be: 3hp SS + Oneida Dust Deputy Cyclone + somebody's 2-3hp blower (? who's?). The upside of the compromise is that it's smaller, and I could juggle layout and mount it on a shelf above the storage spot for the table saw. Less brain damage this route?

[Frank Pratt]

I'm going to try and stick with the existing 30A single-phase breaker for both the 3hp SS and dust extractor. Today's static voltage measures 244VAC and it's a 10GA wiring run unless upgraded.

I'm working along the lines that motor torque is proportional to current, and exploring to see if the Clearvue 5hp motor will run much less than full current load since I'll use no exhaust filter.

Optimal would be: 3hp SS + Clearvue 5hp on the existing breaker. Just don't start both simultaneously. Obviously this is pushing it.

You've got it all wrong there. If you remove the filter, the motor load will go up. Less static pressure = more airflow = higher motor load. Didn't I say that just one post back?

If you try running a 3 HP say & a 5 HP blower anywhere near capacity you'll trip the breaker.

Let me try to understand your thinking. You are willing to spend for a top notch, powerful saw and a top notch, powerful dust collector, but you're not willing to spend a tiny fraction of that for another circuit? You won't be able to use either one to near their potential. So why not just save a bucket full of money & get yourself a 1.5 HP saw & a little dust collector that will only do half a job. Then you will only need the one circuit.

[Ralph E Burns]

If you remove the filter, the motor load will go up. Less static pressure = more airflow = higher motor load. Didn't I say that just one post back?

Yes you did, and my thinking is indeed opposite. Less dynamic pressure = less motor torque = less current. Current is almost linearly proportional to torque (not speed), is that right?


Let me try to understand your thinking. You are willing to spend for a top notch, powerful saw and a top notch, powerful dust collector, but you're not willing to spend a tiny fraction of that for another circuit?

Correcto! I've been blowing big bucks and trying to go cheap here! :D Not excited about outgrowing the old breaker box... hence some fast-footed rationalization that neither motor needs to be at capacity together.

This is just an occasional hobby and I'm the guy with too many hobbies!

[Jim Becker]

Ralph, for the blower on the DC, contrary to "initial logical thought", the least load on the system is when all the blast gates are closed off and no air is flowing. The most load is when the maximum amount of air is flowing. That's why you never run a cyclone system without duct work attached and the bin fully sealed--you can damage or kill the motor. So when you are working with the DC on and the gate is open to your saw, the power draw on the DC is going to be higher than if you had the gate closed. That has to be taken into consideration relative to your power supply. It's pretty much a "best practice" to have a big DC system on a dedicated circuit since it's used with "all the tools". But those tools can easily share a circuit because one person can only run one tool at a time.

[Ralph E Burns]

Hmm, ok! Does seem odd…

I'll take a hard look at the breaker box, but it's looking full. And don't think I'll replace the breaker box without doing the prep work for generator backup. And that's more complicated b/c the house is divided into two subpanels...



Beware of electrical upgrade, there is often many "gotchas" attached to those....

I started wanting the Shaper Origin to do things and then when it didn't a router table and now look!

[Will Blick]

Yes, with all ww tools, its a slippery slope $. I doubt u can run the SS and Clearview on 30amps, the moment u pass a thick hard wood through the SS, u will trip the breaker.
Interesting take on the amperage increasing without a filter. I admit I never tested this. I would have thought the filter acts as an additional load / resistance to the system, increasing amp draw. Has anyone ever tested this to confirm?

[Will Blick]

Without getting into specifics of fan curves, motor curves, motor types, etc. (which all matter in system design, static pressure drops, duct resistance, etc.) Cyclones are relatively basic motor and impeller, nothing complicated, although they also have a fan curve, which often is not published for most ww products.
Regardless, as a general rule, when airflow encounters greater resistance, such as a clogged filter, energy consumption will increase...
> A clogged filter causes those systems to use 15 percent more energy, according to the U.S. Department of Energy.
A clogged filter is similar to adding load onto the system vs. a clean filter. Removing a filter would decrease the resistance on the system, reducing energy consumption.
I hate to start WWIII on these forums, as I have seen it happen...
Maybe someone can explain how this generally accepted premise is untrue in the application we are discussing here?

[Ralph E Burns]

Y'know... all my electrical load problems disappear if I'm able to change my Sawstop order from 3hp to 1.75. And after easily test cutting maple butcherblock on my buddies 1.75, the 3hp choice was more of a "what the heck".

[Frank Pratt]

Regardless, as a general rule, when airflow encounters greater resistance, such as a clogged filter, energy consumption will increase...

That is a common misconception but is absolutely not correct. The opposite is true. If you don't believe me or the mountains of supporting data that is readily available, then come over to my shop and have a look. I've got a collector with an amp meter on it. The more clogged the filter is, the lower the current.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Y'know... all my electrical load problems disappear if I'm able to change my Sawstop order from 3hp to 1.75. And after easily test cutting maple butcherblock on my buddies 1.75, the 3hp choice was more of a "what the heck".
DON'T!

The Clearview 1800 is on my wish list, but for the past 4 years, I've used a 1.5HP 110v DC and it has performed well. Well enough to the point, I question whether the CV1800 is more of a whim than a need.

If you buy the 3HP SawStop and find it's an issue, I have a complete 1.75HP motor and controller than can scale you saw down. I'd be happy to do that, not that I have use for the 3HP motor, I already have one.

[Will Blick]

As I mentioned, I never tested this myself...
so your tests prevail...
The small Google search I did, suggested the opposite, including studies by the DoE, although, much of the reports were for HVAC systems. There must be something unique about a Dust Cyclone that defies this general premise....nonetheless very interesting. I am glad this was contributed now to the OP as this will probably influence his decision. When I return to my shop next month, I will run this test with my Laguna PFlux2 Cyclone as it has a large Hepa drum filter. I will report my findings.

[Ralph E Burns]

Is it that as you remove the filter the motor naturally compensates with higher flow and thus higher RPMs at essentially the same torque?

I'm reading thru the Bill Pentz blog this morning, and then I've got to get out the garage and make chips. I'll call Oneida and see if they can point me to a blower matched to their 5" inlet cyclone. I'll hold off calling my Sawstop dealer and bumming them out with an order change. A problem I have using the Shaper Origin is that it goes slow, my mind wanders and I get distracted and then stop making chops.

I'm okay replacing my old breaker box to add a circuit... just not now. I'll probably shoulder the work and that'll spin into a big time suck. My work is booked a year out and that campervan sits ignored.

[Will Blick]

Dont have time to get into motor / amp talk right now...
but as for your decision cutting the SS down to 1.75
u might want to ask around about that...
much depends on what u are cutting.
if you never plan to cut thick material, than fully agreed 1.75hp will suffice.
but if you plant to cut hard woods, that are thick, say 2"+
you might regret this decision.
If you do go 1.75HP, use the thinnest kerf blades you can find to reduce the amount of cut load on the motor.

[Frank Pratt]

As I mentioned, I never tested this myself...
so your tests prevail...
The small Google search I did, suggested the opposite, including studies by the DoE, although, much of the reports were for HVAC systems. There must be something unique about a Dust Cyclone that defies this general premise....nonetheless very interesting. I am glad this was contributed now to the OP as this will probably influence his decision. When I return to my shop next month, I will run this test with my Laguna PFlux2 Cyclone as it has a large Hepa drum filter. I will report my findings.

Any pump or blower that uses an impeller will behave in the same counter intuitive way; the more resistance to fluid flow, the less hard the motor works. Positive displacement pumps or compressors do not behave this way.

[Will Blick]

Interesting, thx for sharing.
of course, like all fans and motors, their unique respective curves would demonstrate what you describe. Of course this data is rarely available for the cyclones we are discussing here as they are on the low end of the market, consumer and prosumer.
But the premise of adding load while reducing energy draw will fall off the curve at some point, otherwise, our ww cyclones will fall into the category of perpetual energy machines ;)

[Ralph E Burns]

Talked to a local vendor (https://airpro.net/) today:

"The blower will always spin at the same speed no matter the load applied (until we're over the HP of the motor and the breaker trips). As the static pressure changes the CFM and HP used also change based on the fan curve. Moving the vertical line left or right on the fan curve will show you the resultant values. As static pressure goes down the CFM goes up and so does the used HP and amp draw."

So it's about the fan; see the attached PDF.

Also the sales engineer commented that another non-intuitive thing is that a stronger horsepower motor used in the same exact fluidic circumstance (same fan, same CFM, same pressure, same!) as a smaller one will use less power. We didn't get into the why that is.

More later about his suggestions.

[Will Blick]

You are getting good info...
yes, its about the fan curve first, as it represents the load in a cyclone.
However, as a working system, ultimately, its about the fan curve and the motor curve which can provide a curve for the working system. With more sophisticated systems, the working system curve is provided.

Yes, single speed motors run at a fixed speed, till the load overwhelms it...then, u will either trip a breaker (if sized properly, which is not always the case), or potential over heat the motor which should trip an internal thermal breaker... if none of these safeties work, the motor can stall... then, the conductors feeding it will heat up, adding more load, which will eventually trip the breaker or melt the conductor ;)

A larger HP motor "can" use less energy for a given load output vs. a lower rated hp motor, assuming the load is in the sweet spot of the motors curve. The motor curve will show the load vs. the energy consumption, which represents the motors efficiency at different loads. At different loads, the efficiency can vary greatly based on the design of the motor. Motors running at max capacity will have often generate greater resistance in the windings, producing heat, thereby decreasing overall efficiency. Hence why systems are designed with all the components to work efficiently as as system.
Not all motors are created equal, hence the huge variance in price.

So how has all the added info effect your purchase decision?

[Ralph E Burns]

I'm leaning towards 220V SawStop and 110V dust collector.

From Bob - Woodcraft Sawstop dealer: "The order is still a week or so out, so you can make up your mind later. I sell equal numbers of 1.75 and 3hp PCS, and both customers are happy. If I had full breaker box issues like you, I'd pick the 1.75 in a heartbeat and save the money. And we have the 5hp Clearvue Cyclone here at the school, they are nice but way overkill for a garage shop. I'd look at a 1.5hp Jet dust collector."

From Aaron - Airpro (https://airpro.net/): "Garage shop and 4" saw air port? I'd get a throwaway shop vac from Home Depot. If you really want a cyclone, then get this Cincinnati fan with a 1/2hp motor, sized 400 CFM for that saw."


What I think: I'd be happy enough with 1.75 or 3hp saw. I normally cut verrry slow on a tablesaw for small chips without any burn. The test cut with a 1.75hp on maple butcherblock was fine (except the SS fence had a bulge). I hear the 3hp comes with a more usable dust collector blade guard. I have never used a tablesaw blade guard and not sure how to cut small pieces with one. I did already buy a 1/8" ATBR Forrest blade, dado and ZCI. Forrest guy said thin kerf blades usually don't survive a Sawstop activation. Does seem to me that the table saw should have amply more power than the track saw.

Maybe I'll tell Aaron to size for two 4" ports and see what he comes up with. I could hang a second inlet from the ceiling. I prefer the aluminum rotor that Cinci uses. I can mate with Oneida Cyclone and 17-gallon squat barrel and put on a new shelf over the space where the table saw is stored, in using leftover space in the garage.

@ChrisA: I have had better results with the Shaper making finger joints for my 37" boxes by making sure I never rescan. I am programming .014" clearance between fingers for a light friction fit on baltic birch. There is still lousy forward-back accuracy. My workstation is excellent but I could consider their little plastic one also. I missed today's web session in lieu of a fire department call.

[Jim Becker]

First rules of dust collection....it's the most important tool in the shop and it'd never "overkill" to have something more capable. So I disagree with "Aaron". A lot.

[Will Blick]

AGree with Jim...
no throw away HD dust collector can handle the dust volume from TS.. not even close.
I use a Festool Dust collector only for the top, and it only works marginal for the top collection, hopefully u should have better luck with SS. But u mentioned that the 1.75 does not have equal top dust collection as the 3hp. This matters a lot...as if their is not a proper design of the dust shroud, it will will be disappointing.
Interesting stats the rep sent you... noise data reporting is impressive.
You did not mention if noise was an issue, if so, like many fans, that is quite loud. If u are in an isolated area, this cold be a non issue. I am currently using a Laguna PFlux, as noise is an issue in my current set up. It is very quiet considering its size. ONce I move out of this small shop, I will move to my next shop, i can relax the noise requirement.
lots of variables to consider, u are doing a good job collecting info...

[Frank Pratt]

From Bob - Woodcraft Sawstop dealer: "The order is still a week or so out, so you can make up your mind later. I sell equal numbers of 1.75 and 3hp PCS, and both customers are happy. If I had full breaker box issues like you, I'd pick the 1.75 in a heartbeat and save the money. And we have the 5hp Clearvue Cyclone here at the school, they are nice but way overkill for a garage shop. I'd look at a 1.5hp Jet dust collector."

From Aaron - Airpro (https://airpro.net/): "Garage shop and 4" saw air port? I'd get a throwaway shop vac from Home Depot. If you really want a cyclone, then get this Cincinnati fan with a 1/2hp motor, sized 400 CFM for that saw."

If Aaron is saying that a 1/2 HP blower is good, then I would tend to not trust his advice on anything related to dust collection. That won't be nearly enough to give you even marginal dust collection. And the 400 CFM rating is fiction.

Even the 1.5 HP Jet suggested by Bob is too small unless you move it from machine to machine & connect with only a short length of flex. I did that for a couple of years & it gets old in a hurry.

I have a 5 HP Oneida in my shop & would in no way say it's overkill. A 3 HP would do the job for the most part, but the 5 HP works better at the miter saw station & for quickly cleaning up the air after.

[ChrisA Edwards]

@ChrisA: I have had better results with the Shaper making finger joints for my 37" boxes by making sure I never rescan. I am programming .014" clearance between fingers for a light friction fit on baltic birch. There is still lousy forward-back accuracy. My workstation is excellent but I could consider their little plastic one also. I missed today's web session in lieu of a fire department call.

Thanks for the info, I was on the Shaper demo today and actually took delivery of my Shaper Origin this morning.