New Hammer combo machine on the way!

[Todd Solomon]

Fellas,

I just pulled the trigger on a new Hammer C3 31 Comfort. Really excited about getting back into woodworking after a seven year break!

After laying out the 1-car shop space for the shop in my 3-car garage, it became clear that I didn't have enough room for separates. I initially tried to get a Hammer A3 31, only to find it's on back order for 6+ months. They had a Hammer K3 sliding table saw in stock, but the slider was only 31" long, I quickly realized that I wouldn't be getting the benefit of the slider for much of my planned projects. However, they had a C3 31 combo machine in stock locally and at just the right size. I've watched enough videos to see that switching between jointer-planer to saw work is not a biggie. The big hit comes when I want to use the shaper. At this stage as I near retirement, I'm in less of a hurry and want to enjoy the process of woodworking, so I decided to pull the trigger.

Hammer has a pretty comprehensive package as part of their sale on the machine. I knew what I wanted, as I used to own a couple of Felder machines. To my surprise, those extras were pretty much what I was looking for. Upgrades included in the discounted package deal are:

80" slider and outrigger
Spiral cutter block on the 12" jointer planer
scoring unit with blades
precision miter index system (exactly sets common angles with a pin)
prep for dado
Various shaper goodies, including upgraded precision fence system, 1-1/4" spindle, and a 1/2" router collet
mobility kit


I added a couple of extras that I will use frequently:

shorty crosscut fence for smaller work
a couple of table extensions, one for slider and one for saw outfeed or planar outfeed
digital planer thickness readout in the handwheel


First project will be a lot of fun and will be putting this beast through all the paces. It's a large armoire for my daughter to hang her clothes in. I have a beautiful stash of African mahogany, including some nice figure for the raised panel doors. One piece of wood is just over 11" wide and another is 9", perfect for the capacity of this machine. I'll get a ton of work on the shaper, jointer-planer, and will make full use of the 80" slider stroke. I kinda wish I had a bandsaw, as I need to book-match resaw the doors. I may pay the local lumberyard for this, as all but 4 cuts can be done on the slider. I'm keeping my eyes open for a used bandsaw.

I'm most excited about learning to use the shaper, as I've had a fair amount of experience with the rest.

I'm in the process of moving, so I won't be able to set up the shop for over a month. In the meantime, I'll have to settle for Norm Abrams re-runs :)

Cheers

Todd

[Mike King]

Nice! Enjoy your combo machine — I love mine (cf741)!

[David Eisenhauer]

Welcome back to wworking Todd. I imagine you will enjoy your new machine putting it through the paces. Sounds like the package will do some good. A word about the probably beautiful looking African Mahogany you have - it can move considerably. I have never had kiln dried wood move as much after initial dimensioning as I have for the one larger project I completed using African Mahogany. Best to sneak up to final dimensions in two-three steps and clamp down to prevent movement or to have it settle in at a flat/straight state. It is some pretty stuff though and finishes nicely. Easy to work when you can get it to settle down. Good luck and have fun with your new machine.

[Todd Solomon]

Nice! Enjoy your combo machine — I love mine (cf741)!

Very nice! Years ago I had a K700S Plus and an AD741. Sweet machines both of them, actually remarkable the level of quality and attention to detail. The Hammer is the little brother haha. It gets pretty solid reviews, looking forward to actually cutting something again.

[Todd Solomon]

Welcome back to wworking Todd. I imagine you will enjoy your new machine putting it through the paces. Sounds like the package will do some good. A word about the probably beautiful looking African Mahogany you have - it can move considerably. I have never had kiln dried wood move as much after initial dimensioning as I have for the one larger project I completed using African Mahogany. Best to sneak up to final dimensions in two-three steps and clamp down to prevent movement or to have it settle in at a flat/straight state. It is some pretty stuff though and finishes nicely. Easy to work when you can get it to settle down. Good luck and have fun with your new machine.

Thanks David, and I appreciate the insights on the African mahogany. Years ago I made a settee with carved cabriole legs out of it, I was impressed at how well it worked. Really nice wood and beautiful once finished. I bought these boards already kiln dried about ten years ago, they have been patiently waiting in a rack this whole time.

Most of the grain is straight, but I wonder if the raised panels will give me any trouble? The bigger pair of panels will be about 10-1/2 x 35 x 3/4" each, solid one piece. I am planning to book match them, where the left door is the mirror of the right door, but each panel is one piece. They do have a bit of figure, not too crazy. Fingers crossed they won't move too much. Any thoughts? Maybe the wood has reached equilibrium after all this time?

[Jim Andrew]

Does your machine include the power feeder for the shaper? If you use the shaper, you are going to want the feeder.

[Jim Becker]

That's a really nice machine, Todd, and a great re-entry into the "sport". :)

And thank you for your Friend of the Creek contribution!

[Rod Sheridan]

Very nice Todd, I essentially have machine in 2 pieces, a B3 Winner and an A3-31.

Three suggestions are;

1) a stock feeder especially with an arm long enough to use on the jointer

2) a curve guard and rebate head with matching guide ring for pattern copying

3) a 30mm spindle for the shaper so you can share the dado cutter between the shaper and saw. In addition Felder have tooling sales, 30mm tooling is very common as most of the tooling in the world is metric.

You’re going to love your new machine.....Regards, Rod.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Also a happy C3-31 owner, here. You're right that the comfort package has nearly all the goodies you're likely to want. Enjoy the new tool!

[Todd Solomon]

That's a really nice machine, Todd, and a great re-entry into the "sport". :)

And thank you for your Friend of the Creek contribution!

Thanks Jim, good to be back! The hardest part is that, with moving to a new home, it may be two months before I actually start using it. But I'm excited.

You're welcome, I can't think of a better cause than to support this hobby and community. We all need our mental health too, especially with this shelter in place.

[Todd Solomon]

Also a happy C3-31 owner, here. You're right that the comfort package has nearly all the goodies you're likely to want. Enjoy the new tool!

Thanks Dan!

[Todd Solomon]

Does your machine include the power feeder for the shaper? If you use the shaper, you are going to want the feeder.


Very nice Todd, I essentially have machine in 2 pieces, a B3 Winner and an A3-31.

Three suggestions are;

1) a stock feeder especially with an arm long enough to use on the jointer

2) a curve guard and rebate head with matching guide ring for pattern copying

3) a 30mm spindle for the shaper so you can share the dado cutter between the shaper and saw. In addition Felder have tooling sales, 30mm tooling is very common as most of the tooling in the world is metric.

You’re going to love your new machine.....Regards, Rod.

I'm trying to go a little more minimalist this time, saving money for retirement which is hopefully only three years out. So this time around, I plan on buying tools only as I need them.

I've been wondering about the feeder though, and I am glad you both brought it up. I plan on making a prototype of the frame and panel doors before cutting my nice wood. It is then that I was hoping to find out if I can do this without a feeder. I am hoping that if the work is securely clamped to the sliding table, I can slowly push it into the shaper with enough control. Is it that hard to do without a feeder? Is the concern quality of cut, or primarily safety? I don't mind if I need to sand out a few imperfections.

[brent stanley]

I'm trying to go a little more minimalist this time, saving money for retirement which is hopefully only three years out. So this time around, I plan on buying tools only as I need them.

I've been wondering about the feeder though, and I am glad you both brought it up. I plan on making a prototype of the frame and panel doors before cutting my nice wood. It is then that I was hoping to find out if I can do this without a feeder. I am hoping that if the work is securely clamped to the sliding table, I can slowly push it into the shaper with enough control. Is it that hard to do without a feeder? Is the concern quality of cut, or primarily safety? I don't mind if I need to sand out a few imperfections.

Hi Todd, often (but not always) the feeder will give you better finish, but the big benefit is safety. It'll help you keep your digits away from whirling sharp things. The Shaw guard will let you make your door parts safely without a feeder, but it takes proper setting and push sticks etc. I suggest you purchase this book and study it extensively! https://amzn.to/2R7mqkU

It will open your eyes a lot but also help you be safe.

If you take a look at my YouTube channel, I have a couple of recent videos about using the shapers for kitchen cabinet doors. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCERSQeoSXm_y9dzcAHMMbWQ

[Todd Solomon]

Hi Todd, often (but not always) the feeder will give you better finish, but the big benefit is safety. It'll help you keep your digits away from whirling sharp things. The Shaw guard will let you make your door parts safely without a feeder, but it takes proper setting and push sticks etc. I suggest you purchase this book and study it extensively! https://amzn.to/2R7mqkU

It will open your eyes a lot but also help you be safe.

If you take a look at my YouTube channel, I have a couple of recent videos about using the shapers for kitchen cabinet doors. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCERSQeoSXm_y9dzcAHMMbWQ

Book ordered, thank you! I'll check out your YouTube channel as well, much appreciated.

[Todd Solomon]

Hi Todd, often (but not always) the feeder will give you better finish, but the big benefit is safety. It'll help you keep your digits away from whirling sharp things. The Shaw guard will let you make your door parts safely without a feeder, but it takes proper setting and push sticks etc. I suggest you purchase this book and study it extensively! https://amzn.to/2R7mqkU

It will open your eyes a lot but also help you be safe.

If you take a look at my YouTube channel, I have a couple of recent videos about using the shapers for kitchen cabinet doors. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCERSQeoSXm_y9dzcAHMMbWQ

Brent, it is a surprisingly small world. Coincidentally, I watched both of your frame and panel door videos before you replied to my post, one of them twice. Your videos are instructive and entertaining, so much so that I went onto the Whitehill website and picked out insert tooling that matches the profile I was looking for! I ended up finding an American company, Rangate, that offers a very similar limiter cutter heads and tooling (I'm guessing it's the same mfr as Whitehill). Any how, they talked me out of using the insert cutterheads for the rail and stile cuts. The gentleman told me that the cuts would not be accurate enough (too loose or too tight Etc.), and I wouldn't be happy with the result. Any validity to this? His recommended tooling was more fit for a pro shop rather than a hobbyist ($3,000!). He rents the tooling for $300 for a month. I decided to pass.

Long story short, I went a different direction and bought an Amana 3-wing reversible carbide rail and stile cutter, and a raised panel cutter (not insert tooling style). However, for future projects, I would prefer an insert style limiter cutterhead as you had used, as the inserts are not that expensive once you have the head. You clearly had good results with your cutterhead. Sounds like I should reconsider and get one?

Great YouTube channel, thanks!

Todd

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm trying to go a little more minimalist this time, saving money for retirement which is hopefully only three years out. So this time around, I plan on buying tools only as I need them.

I've been wondering about the feeder though, and I am glad you both brought it up. I plan on making a prototype of the frame and panel doors before cutting my nice wood. It is then that I was hoping to find out if I can do this without a feeder. I am hoping that if the work is securely clamped to the sliding table, I can slowly push it into the shaper with enough control. Is it that hard to do without a feeder? Is the concern quality of cut, or primarily safety? I don't mind if I need to sand out a few imperfections.

As Brent commented safety and finish are both improved by the feeder.

That said for a few pieces I hand feed, the Shaw guard will give you downwards pressure and pressure towards the fence, which is good.

Does your fence have the safety bars that bridge the fence openings?

I don't normally make raised panels, I make Shaker style doors. For coping I use the sliding table with a tenon hood/table and for the sticking I use the feeder normally although for a few pieces I hand feed.........Regards, Rod.

[brent stanley]

Brent, it is a surprisingly small world. Coincidentally, I watched both of your frame and panel door videos before you replied to my post, one of them twice. Your videos are instructive and entertaining, so much so that I went onto the Whitehill website and picked out insert tooling that matches the profile I was looking for! I ended up finding an American company, Rangate, that offers a very similar limiter cutter heads and tooling (I'm guessing it's the same mfr as Whitehill). Any how, they talked me out of using the insert cutterheads for the rail and stile cuts. The gentleman told me that the cuts would not be accurate enough (too loose or too tight Etc.), and I wouldn't be happy with the result. Any validity to this? His recommended tooling was more fit for a pro shop rather than a hobbyist ($3,000!). He rents the tooling for $300 for a month. I decided to pass.

Long story short, I went a different direction and bought an Amana 3-wing reversible carbide rail and stile cutter, and a raised panel cutter (not insert tooling style). However, for future projects, I would prefer an insert style limiter cutterhead as you had used, as the inserts are not that expensive once you have the head. You clearly had good results with your cutterhead. Sounds like I should reconsider and get one?

Great YouTube channel, thanks!

Todd

Hi Todd, not to sound like a pedant here but terminology has caught us up before. :) Some people consider "insert tooling" to be any type of tooling where you "insert" a knife into the tool body for use, where some people reserve that terminology just for heads that hold the little thin carbide tips. Some people call the style I have in that video a "Euroblock" or "limiter head" though that's not universal unfortunately!

While some might claim otherwise, both styles require user input when installing knives to get perfect results. Often tooling companies will provide a little gauge you are supposed to use when inserting and setting the carbide tips and though there are differences in quality (and thus ease of installing inserts) none of them are fool proof and can be done incorrectly without proper attention. I don't own any Rangate, but a student of mine did and he was getting mediocre results with it until I reset the inserts for him. In North America the commonly available knives for the limiter heads or euroblocks are the cheap, churned-out-like-sausages 40mm knives that are mass produced in cheap steel and are really hit and miss. I have some and they're fine for some things though I wouldn't rely on them for cope and stick. Unfortunately, those economy grade knives are the only ones I've seen people use here though shops I've been in in the UK didn't have many or any of these due to quality. As you have seen, high quality, pin retained knives properly installed in a quality head produces excellent results. This is why thousands and thousands of people use them for this.

Whithill manufactures their own tooling right there in their own shop in the UK and retails from there too with no middle man. They buy high quality knife blanks by the train load from Germany and grind them for you right there to your specs. Much or maybe all of Rangate's stuff is manufactured in Italy by TWT which is a merger of Zuani and Garniga and someone else so both options are from across the pond. I use my tooling to make a living but I have zero interest in churning out enormous volumes of anything which really (along with abrasive materials like MDF and exotic hardwoods) is the realm of carbide inserts. If I do have a large run of something the knives for the limiter heads can be tipped in carbide for longevity. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with carbide insert tooling, it's just with the volume and type of work I do in a one to three person shop, it doesn't pay for itself . That said, any general purpose tooling I own that gets used a LOT or in abrasive materials is carbide insert, ie. rebate blocks, adjustable groovers, lock miter, seal groovers, trenching head, shaker door sets, edge banding and more but anything with a variable profile is done with limiter heads in HSS. Put it this way....if someone gave me a Rolls Royce calibre, insert-style kitchen door set 10 years ago, it would still be sitting on the shelf unused. Inevitably the profiles that come with those sets are uninteresting and you have limited to no ability to make your own profiles. So you would be trying to compete with kitchen door factories that are doing the profiles popular that year and can produce huge quantities of doors a day for peanuts. If you do find a discriminating client who appreciates the color and grain matching attention to detail a small custom shop can offer to a set of doors with a common profile, then a set of quality HSS knives will be good for more than a kitchen's worth of doors. Sounds like you got brazed carbide tipped tooling which is a quick and reliable way to start off, but like you seem to be anticipating, you'll outgrow it.

Not everyone in North America is concerned about it, but I suggest you seriously consider tooling that is MAN rated for safety. It is required in much of Europe but not here so you have to ask. If you decide you want MAN rated (it's up to you), don't accept an ambiguous answer like "Yeah you can feed it by hand" ask specifically if it meets the standards for MAN rating in Europe. These standards are explicitly documented and well understood and if they don't know or won't say, walk away.

Thanks for the kind words! The videos are fun to do though take a lot of time. I try not to do "how to" videos though they might be fun one day. I am editing one right now on making a simple country or shaker style table using tenons cut on the shaper. The whole build took 6 hours, but the video work more than that! I upgraded the microphone and camera and I hope it makes a difference. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

Cheers,

B

[Todd Solomon]

That's a wealth of info and I appreciate you sharing Brent.

Your description of the care needed to set the knives correctly and accurately in the limiter block makes sense. And I'll go with Whitehill limiter heads when the time comes. As a matter of fact, I nearly bought one today from a Creeker, but his was for a 30mm spindle. My spindle is 1-1/4".

I'm subscribed and I see a bunch of videos on shaper tooling and techniques on your YouTube channel. Looking forward to viewing them.


Hi Todd, not to sound like a pedant here but terminology has caught us up before. :) Some people consider "insert tooling" to be any type of tooling where you "insert" a knife into the tool body for use, where some people reserve that terminology just for heads that hold the little thin carbide tips. Some people call the style I have in that video a "Euroblock" or "limiter head" though that's not universal unfortunately!

While some might claim otherwise, both styles require user input when installing knives to get perfect results. Often tooling companies will provide a little gauge you are supposed to use when inserting and setting the carbide tips and though there are differences in quality (and thus ease of installing inserts) none of them are fool proof and can be done incorrectly without proper attention. I don't own any Rangate, but a student of mine did and he was getting mediocre results with it until I reset the inserts for him. In North America the commonly available knives for the limiter heads or euroblocks are the cheap, churned-out-like-sausages 40mm knives that are mass produced in cheap steel and are really hit and miss. I have some and they're fine for some things though I wouldn't rely on them for cope and stick. Unfortunately, those economy grade knives are the only ones I've seen people use here though shops I've been in in the UK didn't have many or any of these due to quality. As you have seen, high quality, pin retained knives properly installed in a quality head produces excellent results. This is why thousands and thousands of people use them for this.

Whithill manufactures their own tooling right there in their own shop in the UK and retails from there too with no middle man. They buy high quality knife blanks by the train load from Germany and grind them for you right there to your specs. Much or maybe all of Rangate's stuff is manufactured in Italy by TWT which is a merger of Zuani and Garniga and someone else so both options are from across the pond. I use my tooling to make a living but I have zero interest in churning out enormous volumes of anything which really (along with abrasive materials like MDF and exotic hardwoods) is the realm of carbide inserts. If I do have a large run of something the knives for the limiter heads can be tipped in carbide for longevity. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with carbide insert tooling, it's just with the volume and type of work I do in a one to three person shop, it doesn't pay for itself . That said, any general purpose tooling I own that gets used a LOT or in abrasive materials is carbide insert, ie. rebate blocks, adjustable groovers, lock miter, seal groovers, trenching head, shaker door sets, edge banding and more but anything with a variable profile is done with limiter heads in HSS. Put it this way....if someone gave me a Rolls Royce calibre, insert-style kitchen door set 10 years ago, it would still be sitting on the shelf unused. Inevitably the profiles that come with those sets are uninteresting and you have limited to no ability to make your own profiles. So you would be trying to compete with kitchen door factories that are doing the profiles popular that year and can produce huge quantities of doors a day for peanuts. If you do find a discriminating client who appreciates the color and grain matching attention to detail a small custom shop can offer to a set of doors with a common profile, then a set of quality HSS knives will be good for more than a kitchen's worth of doors. Sounds like you got brazed carbide tipped tooling which is a quick and reliable way to start off, but like you seem to be anticipating, you'll outgrow it.

Not everyone in North America is concerned about it, but I suggest you seriously consider tooling that is MAN rated for safety. It is required in much of Europe but not here so you have to ask. If you decide you want MAN rated (it's up to you), don't accept an ambiguous answer like "Yeah you can feed it by hand" ask specifically if it meets the standards for MAN rating in Europe. These standards are explicitly documented and well understood and if they don't know or won't say, walk away.

Thanks for the kind words! The videos are fun to do though take a lot of time. I try not to do "how to" videos though they might be fun one day. I am editing one right now on making a simple country or shaker style table using tenons cut on the shaper. The whole build took 6 hours, but the video work more than that! I upgraded the microphone and camera and I hope it makes a difference. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

Cheers,

B

[Todd Solomon]

I see the safety bars are offered by Felder that will fit my Hammer fence for $187. I've seen some vids of the Aigner safety fence in use, boy that looks nice. But I also found out that it costs about the same as my budget for a used bandsaw, lol. So I'll pick up the Hammer bars.

Update: I’ve confirmed that it does come with the euro spindle guard, putting pressure down and into the fence. I’m surprised that there is almost no mention of it on their website or in their catalog. In any case, looks like I’m good to go.


As Brent commented safety and finish are both improved by the feeder.

That said for a few pieces I hand feed, the Shaw guard will give you downwards pressure and pressure towards the fence, which is good.

Does your fence have the safety bars that bridge the fence openings?

I don't normally make raised panels, I make Shaker style doors. For coping I use the sliding table with a tenon hood/table and for the sticking I use the feeder normally although for a few pieces I hand feed.........Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes Todd, your machine comes with the 2 part Shaw guard for the shaper, I find it easy to use and it provides good hold down.

When I host seminars at Felder, the participants make a push block for the shaper, one with the cleat that's flush with the bottom of the block and projects to the inboard side, this is perfect for use with the Shaw guard, just make it about 10mm thick so it can pass under the clear outer Shaw guard.

The fence fingers are extremely useful from a safety and quality of cut perspective. You're going to have a lot of fun with your new machine...Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Funny, I've been following this thread since first started but I just now put two and two together Todd. :)

Hope the pieces from my saw help out. Enjoy the new combo unit. In a lot of ways, I wish I'd gone this route initially due to space constraints. Also, the idea of using a power feeder on the saw, shaper and jointer sure looks appealing. Can't do that easily on separates. Regards, Greg

[Rod Sheridan]

Funny, I've been following this thread since first started but I just now put two and two together Todd. :)

Hope the pieces from my saw help out. Enjoy the new combo unit. In a lot of ways, I wish I'd gone this route initially due to space constraints. Also, the idea of using a power feeder on the saw, shaper and jointer sure looks appealing. Can't do that easily on separates. Regards, Greg

Au contraire Greg, I do it often, I just move the J/P over and swing the feeder off the back of the saw/shaper........Rod.

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[Greg Parrish]

interesting. Thanks for sharing Rod. If my sawcends up selling without the feeder I may have to craft up a stand to work with my jointer on a stand alone basis.



Au contraire Greg, I do it often, I just move the J/P over and swing the feeder off the back of the saw/shaper........Rod.

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