New Fence

[John Leech]

After 28 years it's time to install a new fence for our backyard. I put the current fence in on the cheap. That also describes the quality of the install. I'd like for this fence to be done right and not look like the redneck eye-sore that it has been. That said, we live on top of a hill quite a distance from the nearest neighbor and the only person who the fence has irritated is me! What I'd like is feedback on what I plan on doing. I've not yet started, so at this point I'm pretty much open to anything.

My current plan has me setting 8 foot 4x4 pressure treated posts 2 feet deep. The posts will have their ends sealed with FlexSeal (or some equivalent) to extend their longevity. The posts will rest on a bed of gravel and I will set them in concrete making sure to extend the concrete above grade to keep soil away from the posts.

The posts will be 92 1/2 inches apart, so I can screw 8 foot pressure treated 2x4s to their faces. Cedar or pressure treated (I haven't decided) pickets will be nailed to the fence rails. There will also be 2 gates that I'll build using half-lapped 2x4s. The only sticking point is that I'd like one section of the fence to be removable. My plan is to use a U-shaped bracket to allow the rails of the removable panel to rest in.

My hope is that this fence will give me at least as many years as my redneck fence of 28 years?

Thoughts? Have at it....

John

[Jim Koepke]

My plan is to use a U-shaped bracket to allow the rails of the removable panel to rest in.

The half barrel hinges that are often used for gates in farm fences and such might be an easy way to accomplish this. Four sets would do the job, one pair top and bottom at each end.

Also, not sure how this is from state to state, but here in Washington there are two grades of pressure treated lumber. One grade is for ground contact and one grade is for use abobe ground only.

That section of fence might be awful heavy to lift off. You may want to make it more like a gate that looks like the rest of the fence.

jtk

[John Leech]

Thanks for the idea about the half barrel hinges, Jim. I had not thought of those.

I'm sure that pressure treated lumber has changed in the past 28 years. Likely more environmentally friendly in exchange for shortened longevity. As a result my goal of 28 years for this fence is likely unreasonable. But a guy can dream.

[John K Jordan]

What's the frost line depth in your area? I always make sure my posts are deeper, not usually a problem since the frost line is about 18" here. I put most of my posts 3' in the ground. I use a hydraulic post driver for round posts and drill a hole with an auger for square posts. My PT wooden posts always rest on compacted gravel as you mentioned, gravel around the bottom of the post, then compacted gravel or soil to the top. The PT posts rated for direct ground contact haven't been affected by the dirt. I install posts that support a significant load differently (concrete punch pad, thin gravel layer for drainage, compacted gravel around the lower part of the post, then concrete fill). If putting them in concrete you can also make a small square form or a short piece of sonotube around the top of the hole and the concrete would be a bit higher than the ground level. But I don't know anyone who sets line posts in concrete, just corner posts and maybe one or two in the middle of a long run. I like to put a little steel in concrete collers since I've seen some of them crack and split apart.

I would do one thing different about the rails and pickets - put it together with screws instead of nails. I like to use screws for everything.

When we moved in the deck at this house had multiple removable panels. The builder used 2x4 rails and 2x2 spindles and the ends of both the upper and lower 2x4s rested in wooden brackets. (Each section could be lifted then lowered to rest the upper rail in the lower brackets to improve the view while sitting on the deck.) This held up for 25 years then we tore it all down and built a larger deck. I suspect good steel brackets would work even better than wood brackets.

JKJ



After 28 years it's time to install a new fence for our backyard. I put the current fence in on the cheap. That also describes the quality of the install. I'd like for this fence to be done right and not look like the redneck eye-sore that it has been. That said, we live on top of a hill quite a distance from the nearest neighbor and the only person who the fence has irritated is me! What I'd like is feedback on what I plan on doing. I've not yet started, so at this point I'm pretty much open to anything.

My current plan has me setting 8 foot 4x4 pressure treated posts 2 feet deep. The posts will have their ends sealed with FlexSeal (or some equivalent) to extend their longevity. The posts will rest on a bed of gravel and I will set them in concrete making sure to extend the concrete above grade to keep soil away from the posts.

The posts will be 92 1/2 inches apart, so I can screw 8 foot pressure treated 2x4s to their faces. Cedar or pressure treated (I haven't decided) pickets will be nailed to the fence rails. There will also be 2 gates that I'll build using half-lapped 2x4s. The only sticking point is that I'd like one section of the fence to be removable. My plan is to use a U-shaped bracket to allow the rails of the removable panel to rest in.

My hope is that this fence will give me at least as many years as my redneck fence of 28 years?

Thoughts? Have at it....

John

[Stan Calow]

How tall? I'd go with pressure treated for cost because cedar and PT will both turn gray anyway. If you spray with sealer, it might extend life some, but its a lot of work for the benefit. Make a double gate so you can get the biggest possible piece of equipment into the yard.

[Jim Becker]

Your post plan sounds very reasonable as long as the depth is appropriate for your area. You may want to consider using fence panels rather than individual pickets if you can get the style you want...less work. They are generally flexible enough to adapt to changing elevations, too. Using the panels may or may not slightly change your spacing. The removable panel/section is a good idea for wider access when needed...I'd look at using the type of heavy connectors uses for typical farm gates with the "L" bolts on the outside posts all facing upward so the eye bolts can slip down over them. Only about 2" of vertical lift would be required to remove the panel...two people should be able to handle that. You can provision some form of latch on the inside to insure that the panel isn't lifted inadvertently by weather or, um...curious humans.

[Jerome Stanek]

If you have freezing ground you may not want to concrete them in as the frost can lift them out

[Mark Daily]

Does anybody have any experience with vinyl fencing like this?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Freedom-Actual-6-ft-x-7-82-ft-Ready-to-Assemble-Emblem-Sand-Vinyl-Flat-Top-Vinyl-Fence-Panel/50374100

Don't know if it’s suitable for cold locations.

[Jim Koepke]

If you have freezing ground you may not want to concrete them in as the frost can lift them out

One of the causes for frost lifting the concrete is the top inch or two being larger around than the bulk of concrete below grade. The water under the lip is what freezes and lifts the concrete plug.

jtk

[John Leech]

Great comments here, thanks.

John, frost line here is generally considered to be the same as yours. 18 inches. I suspect that it's less than that in reality because one of the ways I saved money originally was to cut the posts in half and set them anywhere from 10-12 inches. My decision to dig 24 inch holes came about from the desire to add a few inches of gravel and added security.

Stan, I'm planning to use pressure treated posts and they will be cut 3 1/2-4 feet above grade. I'll make the decision once the pickets (3 1/2 feet tall) are on. So long as I'm not like a former employee of my grandpa who once said, "I cut it twice and it's still too short" I should be OK.

Jim, I used panels the first time and they worked fine for a portion of the fence, but for the section on a slope they only appeared plumb if you were leaving Bourbon Street after a long night. I'll give them a once over, but think pickets may be easier and better in the long run. The purpose of the removable section is not to keep things in (other than the dog) but to get the riding mower into the back yard in the fall, so I'm not concerned about 'curious humans.' If they want, they can just look over the fence, but if they mess with my hammock, we'll have words! LOL

Mark, I toyed with going the vinyl route, but the quality of plastic seems low. Not to mention having to find replacement parts several years down the road when the inevitable branch crashes through the fence

[Kev Williams]

I'd like for this fence to be done right and not look like the redneck eye-sore that it has been...
John

Funny- Seems the popular thing right now is people paying good money for old weather-beaten rickety half rotted wood, going for the 'rustic' (red-neck eyesore?) look.. ;)

If you're dead-set on a new fence, put the old wood on Craigslist, you may get enough for it to pay for the new fence :D

[Brian Elfert]

If longevity is a concern I would look at the galvanized fence posts they make now that are designed to have a vinyl post sleeve go over them.

[Ben Darrah]

What is the actual purpose of the fence?

[Bill Dufour]

Use a grass board. I put a tongue and groove on my boards so they overlap and add strength. I actually tongue half the boards and groove the other half to save handling. I am in the process of rebuilding my fence. They did not use a grass board So I cut off the bottom 8" of the rotten boards and set them up on a the grassboard. I have used hardiplank for grass boards. Many people here seem to think this town is dead level and make no provision for slope at all. A grass board allows for slopes to be considered. Dog eared boards hide minor differences. Concrete will rot out fence posts sooner. If you are going to paint the fence paint the grass boards before installation, even with a sprayer it saves a lot of time and trouble.
Bil lD
Bill D

[Jerome Stanek]

I have seen posts that have heaved even the concrete wasn't to the top of the hole. as long as the frost has a place to grip i can lift it. When I was building pole barns we would drill a hole 4 feet deep as our frost line is 3 feet then we would put a concrete base in it. We made our own bases using a 5 gal bucket that fir the hole. then we would back fill with dirt

[Mark Daily]

A local building inspector who is also a contractor showed me a post mounting option I had never heard of.
Slide the post inside a 2’ section of square channel steel so the wood is about 4 inches higher than the bottom of the steel. Fill the hole with crushed gravel and concrete or whatever you want to use to hold the post in place. This prevents the wood from ever having contact with the ground or concrete.

431681

The bottom 18” of the cedar post in the photo had all four sides shaved off so it would fit into a piece of standard size steel. This created a “shelf” for the post to rest on, keeping it 6” above the bottom of the steel. The post was then bolted to the steel to prevent it from coming apart.

It is more work and expense, and the steel may rust through some day but it will last longer than the wood alone.

[Mark Daily]

Great comments here, thanks.

John, frost line here is generally considered to be the same as yours. 18 inches. I suspect that it's less than that in reality because one of the ways I saved money originally was to cut the posts in half and set them anywhere from 10-12 inches. My decision to dig 24 inch holes came about from the desire to add a few inches of gravel and added security.

Stan, I'm planning to use pressure treated posts and they will be cut 3 1/2-4 feet above grade. I'll make the decision once the pickets (3 1/2 feet tall) are on. So long as I'm not like a former employee of my grandpa who once said, "I cut it twice and it's still too short" I should be OK.

Jim, I used panels the first time and they worked fine for a portion of the fence, but for the section on a slope they only appeared plumb if you were leaving Bourbon Street after a long night. I'll give them a once over, but think pickets may be easier and better in the long run. The purpose of the removable section is not to keep things in (other than the dog) but to get the riding mower into the back yard in the fall, so I'm not concerned about 'curious humans.' If they want, they can just look over the fence, but if they mess with my hammock, we'll have words! LOL

Mark, I toyed with going the vinyl route, but the quality of plastic seems low. Not to mention having to find replacement parts several years down the road when the inevitable branch crashes through the fence

Probably why I’ve never seen anybody using it.

[Ronald Blue]

Don't waste your time on the concrete. Two feet seems shallow even for where you are. Shoot my mailbox post is 3-1/2'. Whatever depth you decide on set the post with gravel. Easy peasy! Try one for yourself. You will love it. Set the post in the hole, start adding gravel and squaring and getting it plumb as you go. By the time you get to the top of the hole the post will be solid. Just wiggle it a little as you add it. It's the only way to set a post. I grew up hand tamping fence posts on the farm. Never again. It's fast too!
The metal square tube might be fine in Arizona but in the midwest it will rust out quickly.

[Jim Koepke]

Slide the post inside a 2’ section of square channel steel so the wood is about 4 inches higher than the bottom of the steel.

The big box stores sell post setters. They have a shaft on the base to set in concrete and a bracket to hold a 4X4 post. There easy to find in the store, not so easy on the web site.

IMO, a post set properly in concrete is likely to last just as long.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

A hybrid approach might be best here...corner posts? Definitely in concrete and maybe set deeper, too. Intermediate posts mostly set in tamped gravel like Ron mentions with every third or fourth post in concrete if you feel the need and where it may make sense for stability due to terrain. The two posts bordering the removable panel should also be in concrete and perhaps set deeper, too. Same for other gates.

[John Leech]

It's never been said that woodworkers lack strong opinions!!! LOL!

Thanks for all of the suggestions and pointers on fence installations. I finished the fence last week and it looks great. The best part of the whole project was that I was able to recruit and pay my 16 year old daughter to work alongside me. Normally I'm against paying her since she "lives here and needs to contribute," but due to the shutdowns there are no jobs available that I'm willing to let her work. Best part was listening to her troubleshoot as we looked at installation problems and design. Not to mention the fact that I got to witness my somewhat timid daughter utter the sentence "we were running a nail gun" with glee.

Gates don't sag, and posts are plumb. All in all a good, fun project

Thanks for your help.

John

[Jim Becker]

That sounds like a win-win, John! 'Glad your daughter got to work with you for both the camaraderie and the experience of making something.

I've been doing similar with my soon to be 21 year old younger daughter, but it involves cooking. The combination of limited work hours (only back-of-house accounting at the restaurant she's worked for since age 15) and stay-at-home even while classes were still running as well as a serious boyfriend who is a good cook provided the opportunity for her to learn to cook things she enjoys eating and it's been great...about twice a week has worked for us.

[Bill Dufour]

Too late now but sounds like you should have bought ten foot posts and cut them in half.
Bill D

[Greg Parrish]

Our fence here in Florida is around 10 years old and one thing I'd do differently today is to use 6x6 posts instead of 4x4. All of the fences around me that have the larger posts look better and the posts stayed straighter over time. The cost difference at install would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. That said, I've had to replace nearly 6 to 8 sections of our fence over the years due to ground rot. Pressure Treated wood just doesn't hold up the way it did in the past.