Help me decide: Sawstop PCS31230-PFA30 vs Minimax SC 2C vs Hammer K3 Winner

[ADRIAN MACEIRAS]

Key factors in my decision:
1) Safety - I value my fingers a lot. I am also very much an apprentice woodworker. I have been hesitant to purchase a table saw because of this and have been getting by with a makita track saw. My only real experience with a table saw is from high school shop class and that was many years ago. I familiar with general table saw safety practices of using push sticks, riving knives to avoid kickback, cross cut sleds and other jigs (fritz/franz jig etc) to avoid getting your hands close to the blade, but I do not have a lot of hours practicing these techniques.
2) Fits in my shop - My shop is 20x20, but has a center support pole. It has dual overlapping barn doors - e.g. half of 20' can be open at any time and I am ok having to open the barn door to use the slider.
3) Features - I lean towards a slider over a traditional panel saw with respect to features. Ideally I would love to be able to straight line rip a full 8ft board and get into dimensioning rough lumber, but there is no way a full 8ft slider would fit my shop or budget. Current in flight projects are a GFRC concrete + live edge night stands and coffee table. This has involved cutting laminate sheet goods into molds for the GFRC and dimensioning a rough slab of walnut (inspired by this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRawVCDMuZ8)
4) Within my budget - ~5k - its not a 100% hard budget

I already own a Minimax FS 30 classic J/P and its been great (bought it used).

Sawstop PCS31230-PFA30
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/sawstop-3-hp-professional-cabinet-saw-with-30-premium-fence-system-pcs31230-pfa30

Minimax SC 2C
https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/minimax-sc-2g.706

Hammer K3 Winner
https://www.felder-group.com/en-kr/products/sliding-table-saws-c1947/panel-saw-k3-winner-p3055


Although I think in the long-term I would prefer a slider - given my lack of experience, desire for safety, and cost price point... the Sawstop is seeming the most appealing.

I am having a hard time getting footprints for how much floor space these sliders would require (with or without the support tables).

Im really just looking for others opinions, particularly those that have used both (sawstop vs a slider) and those with experience with these specific slider models. Thanks!

[David Stone (CT)]

I have a K3 in the same configuration as you are considering (I think). The sliding table travel maximum footprint is about 14 feet (with the six foot table). This might sound like a lot, but in practice this space needs to be clear of other machines and junk anyway, since it's largely the same real estate your body or work piece will occupy when pushing sheets of plywood and long boards through the rip fence. The minimum side-to-side footprint with the outrigger attached is determined by the length of the crosscut fence, which is about 4 ' on mine. My goal is to be able to crosscut things up to seven-ish feet without having to rearrange the shop, so in practice I keep six-plus feet to the left of the saw body clear for the outrigger's travels. I personally leave the outrigger on 95% of the time, but it takes just a minute or two to attach or remove, so it's easy to reclaim that space if/when desired.

My main shop space is 12 x 20' and the saw lives next to one of the long walls: it's a reasonably workable arrangement even in that small area, and I'd imagine the footprint of this saw, or the alternatives you're considering, should be a non-issue in the larger area you've got.

... As far as small entry-level sliding table saws like the K3 vs. the SawStop cabinet saw, there are countless threads here on that, so I won't opine except to say I think both are really good choices for most hobbyists, you can make anything with either, and having a genuine basis for strongly preferring one over the other in a hobby setting requires knowing one's own methods of work and the nature of what one tends to build--knowledge that, by definition, few of us have when we get into the hobby.

...Anything else specific to the K3 you want to know?

[Michail Kyriazanos]

I just delivered my SCM st3c a few days ago.

I would recommend a slider every day, of course it has a lot to do with living in Greece where cabinet style saws are not many.

I was between the Hammer and SCM myself. I decided to go with the SCM after I checked both, I believe that the slider construction is better and the optional attachments available suited my needs more.

I don't think that the sc2c will be much different in quality from mine st3c

[Jim Becker]

All of your three stated options are worthy. I'm a slider fan and user and wouldn't go back to a North American style cabinet saw. SCM/Minimax is in my shop, but the Felder/Hammer products are equally nice.

[Frank Pratt]

If you choose SawStop, do not get the "premium" fence. It's a really light weight flexible (in a bad way) fence. The T-glide is a Biesmeyer clone and is very good. I can't figure out why they offer that on a cabinet saw when it's more like something you'd find on a job site saw.

Personally, if my shop situation were different and I had the budget, I'd go with a slider.

[Derek Cohen]

I went through this choice 3 years ago.

My initial preference was for the SawStop because it was similar to my existing saw. It was familiar and comfortable. However, the more I read about sliders, the more it became evident that they were the future and offered much more options.

I went with the Hammer K3 as I knew Felder (already had 2 other Hammers), and their service was top class.

I would go with the manufacturer (of a slider) who will give the best backup and service.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ChrisA Edwards]

Of your 3 choices, for me, the short stroke sliders don't have any significant advantage over the cabinet saw to justify the price difference.

If I'm going to give up space, for a slider, it's going to be a slider that will rip a minimum of 8', otherwise, if I'm buying a slider for cross cutting, I'll save the $2000 and use a sled on the cabinet saw.

I have this debate with myself all the time. I have a nicely setup SawStop, pretty much in a dedicated location, even though it sits on the ICS mobile base. It's location gives me 9' of outfeed, so I've almost set aside enough room for a slider, but when I look at the few operations where a long'ish stroke slider would be an advantage, I can overcome those fairly easily using other methods to achieve that cut, i.e. breaking down sheet goods with a track saw, using a straight edge jig on my cabinet saw.

Yes, a slider is in my future, but most likely it will be a used, slightly larger unit than you listed.

[Rick Potter]

I'll be back. Gotta make some popcorn.

This might go long.

[Erik Loza]

Hi Adrian, I emailed you from my company account. Let me know if you want to talk to any local Austin Hammer owners. There are a bunch.

Erik

[Keith Albertson]

I have a SawStop and love it. I'm a retired orthopaedic surgeon and bought mine about 10 years ago after a long night repairing another woodworkers damaged hands. I can personally vouch that the mechanism works, since I've set it off myself (stupidly ran it into a piece of aluminum miter gauge).

The saw fits my shop and my work style. I don't do much with large sheets, and I can break those down on the rare instance I need to with a track-saw set up. I have several sized cross cut sleds which work well for me, and I feel secure with the knowledge that if I do anything extra stupid the saw will protect me. I remain diligent against kickback at all times of course. The saw is extremely well made, sturdy, with a solid mobile base. I have the Beisemeyer clone fence and it has been great.

I can't speak to the European saws, though I have a friend who has one and adores it. But with the hobby type work I do, I don't see any need to ever switch at this point. I'm set in my ways. As you are just starting out, and you have a good budget, you will be happy with whatever you get. I just wanted to say you won't be unhappy with the SawStop if you decide to go with it. Be sure to get the 3 HP and the better fence. There is a sale on now, you can get a free overarm dust collector arm or a mobile base. SawStop prices are fixed everywhere, so buy from a trusted local dealer as opposed to online.

[Patrick Kane]

I certainly think the slider options are more capable machines than the sawstop, but i dont know if i agree that they are as safe. I think the slider safety argument is misconstrued via marketing--mostly silver-tongued Harry from Felder--and applied universally to all sliders. If you are ripping off the slider wagon, then yes, they are definitely safer than conventional ripping at a cabinet saw. Your hands can be feet away from the blade with your material clamped to the wagon. This is accurate for 8-12' machines. I dont think it applies to short-stroke machines. You will primarily be ripping using the rip fence in a similar manner to the sawstop. Assuming most of your rip cuts are greater in length than 48"+/-, which the majority of my own are.

How much do they weigh? Why is that info not readily available? I just spent 5 minutes of my life on Felder and SCM's sites and went through the PDFs too. Im sure i could find it if i dug up the felder book i have somewhere in the house. Beside the basic specs, the sliding tables on the euro models will be far above the quality of the sawstop sliding table accessory(if you go that direction). I had a jessem slider attachment on my unisaw for years. It was a very nice thing, but not the same quality or accuracy. On top of the quality, the sliders were meant to operate with the sliding table. Thankfully, my unisaw was right tilt and had a unifence, but the sawstop will be left tilt and with a bies fence. This means you cant easily slide the fence extrusion back before the blade to use as a stop with the sliding table. It also means the blade will potentially cut into your sliding table fence at a full 45. I think the sliders take 12" blades, so you gain some cut capacity. I find a 12" blade to be big enough to cover most bases. Ive been happy for my 13.75" capacity on the felder a few times for thick crosscuts and thick 45 bevels.

Fun purchase either way, enjoy!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Patrick, it all depends what you’re making of course.

Mainly I make solid wood furniture on 49” stroke slider so most ot my pieces are short enough to rip with the sliding table.

Longer rips of course use the conventional fence, however for me they’re rare. If I do that I can always use the stock feeder if I have a lot of them.....Rod

[Todd Solomon]

If I had the room, I'd go MiniMax or Felder/Hammer without a doubt. I've owned both brands of sliders, fantastic machines and very safe. Only reason I'm going with a portable saw now is because I don't have the room. But I do miss my sliding table!

Todd

[Andy D Jones]

I've had my Unisaw for almost 30 years, and I wouldn't consider "upgrading" to any other table saw.

But I might be tempted by a slider, though perhaps with a longer slide than you are considering. And a shaper.

You may want to consider how you could orient your saw diagonally in your space, to work around the column.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[David Kumm]

While a long slider is my fist choice, a short stroke does have benefits. The subtable needs to sit flush with the front of the saw to allow for traditional ripping, and the machine needs to be stout enough for a feeder. Dave431063

[Gary Markham]

I went through this process about 18 months ago. I went with the k3 winner package. 80” slider with the outrigger. I love it When I considered the sc 2c the rep pointed out some limits and suggested the 3c is a much better saw. 2c has a lighter weight construction and won’t take a dado I think. I decided I really wanted a slider over the saw stop to help with larger panel cross cutting that is hard to do with a sled because of width. So it came down to 3c or k3. In the time I have used the saw I have not had to rip against the fence. I always stay to the left of the blade and use the slider. Even made a simple slider sled to rip a 2 1/2 thick x 9ft long fire place mantel. Always use my fritz and franz jig. I have been Woodworking for 30 years a had a great griz 1023 before this saw. Never had an accident and only a few minor kickbacks. Am very safety aware. Still the slider feels much safer.
good luck
gary

[Rod Wolfy]

Adrian, I've had a Jet 3hp w/ 52” fence, a Felder BF631, a Bosch job site saw and a SawStop, in that order. I had to downsize to a 2 car garage, which is 20' square.

I learned with the Jet how hard it is to cut down full sheet plywood panels. With the Felder, I didn't have a full frame, just the slider with (2) 20” accessory tables attached (I could balance up to a 48” sheet, no problem).

I found that despite a larger shop space in the past, I had better accuracy cutting my sheet stock down in the driveway. When I got to a smaller space, I had to downsize. In large part, a 52” table was just a landing spot for junk. It's very hard to crosscut an 8' sheet of plywood on a regular cabinet saw.

I liked the Felder slider and I would love one that ran up to the blade, but none of them have the safety of the SawStop (ok, the $20k Felder probably does). But, as I get older, I have found I'm more injury prone, too. (I'm in the middle of my 4th shoulder surgery at the moment).

It seems like you already have a track saw. I would recommend the SawStop with the 3hp motor, too. However, get it with the 36” fence and the mobile base. It comes with the better fence, too. You can move it aside when you really need to.

You may be able to park a full Euro slider in your small shop; however, your going to give up a lot of space, which is not going to then be available for other tools later on. I use the track saw, the SawStop and and a combo 12” jointer/planer all the time. This is after lots of tools and purchases over 20 years.

[Todd Solomon]

This post help clarify things for me too, thank you Rod. Like the OP, I'm trying to figure out how to equip my shop after a 7 year hiatus.

Like you, I've had experience with a few table saws, first with a crappy contractor table saw, then a MiniMax 9' slider, then a Felder 9' slider. Then sold my equipment to pursue other hobbies, but now am going to set up a small shop again.

With my last shop I went maximum everything, lol. This time, I don't have a lot of room. Shop space is tight- a one car spot in my 3-car garage, but that space has to store other items too. I can pull my cars out of the garage to create temporary space to work.

Your comments about going to a smaller table rings true in my case, as I too have a track saw for large sheet goods. I think I can make a Hammer K3 31 x 31 work well. 31" rip, 34" slider travel, no outrigger. That combined with a 12" jointer/planer will keep footprint small (I've owned a 12" Minimax and a 16" Felder prevously, both were absolute dreams to use).


Adrian, I've had a Jet 3hp w/ 52” fence, a Felder BF631, a Bosch job site saw and a SawStop, in that order. I had to downsize to a 2 car garage, which is 20' square.

I learned with the Jet how hard it is to cut down full sheet plywood panels. With the Felder, I didn't have a full frame, just the slider with (2) 20” accessory tables attached (I could balance up to a 48” sheet, no problem).

I found that despite a larger shop space in the past, I had better accuracy cutting my sheet stock down in the driveway. When I got to a smaller space, I had to downsize. In large part, a 52” table was just a landing spot for junk. It's very hard to crosscut an 8' sheet of plywood on a regular cabinet saw.

I liked the Felder slider and I would love one that ran up to the blade, but none of them have the safety of the SawStop (ok, the $20k Felder probably does). But, as I get older, I have found I'm more injury prone, too. (I'm in the middle of my 4th shoulder surgery at the moment).

It seems like you already have a track saw. I would recommend the SawStop with the 3hp motor, too. However, get it with the 36” fence and the mobile base. It comes with the better fence, too. You can move it aside when you really need to.

You may be able to park a full Euro slider in your small shop; however, your going to give up a lot of space, which is not going to then be available for other tools later on. I use the track saw, the SawStop and and a combo 12” jointer/planer all the time. This is after lots of tools and purchases over 20 years.

[Jim Becker]

That sounds like a good plan, Todd...you'll get the precision you enjoyed previously in a smaller, more affordable footprint by going with a short stroke slider and a J/P combo.

[Alan Lightstone]

I have a SawStop and love it. I'm a retired orthopaedic surgeon and bought mine about 10 years ago after a long night repairing another woodworkers damaged hands. I can personally vouch that the mechanism works, since I've set it off myself (stupidly ran it into a piece of aluminum miter gauge).

The saw fits my shop and my work style. I don't do much with large sheets, and I can break those down on the rare instance I need to with a track-saw set up. I have several sized cross cut sleds which work well for me, and I feel secure with the knowledge that if I do anything extra stupid the saw will protect me. I remain diligent against kickback at all times of course. The saw is extremely well made, sturdy, with a solid mobile base. I have the Beisemeyer clone fence and it has been great.

Adrian:

I'm a retired anesthesiologist, and have seen way too many patients with missing fingers and had to take care of them when we tried (very often in vain) to reimplant fingers, or complete amputations of their digits.

How you get to a safe saw is not terribly important, as long as you get there. So a slider is great. So is a SawStop (my personal choice, an ICS). A conventional cabinet saw - not worth the risk to me. I like my fingers. I plan on keeping them. I also made multiple crosscut sleds, and have a panel saw and a track saw to cut down large sheets, as I can't lift them anymore.

Good luck with your choice. Just stay safe.

[Harvey Miller]

I have a Sawstop with 36” fence & mobile base in my 12' x 13' basement ‘shop’. Before deciding on which one to get I made a light wooden frame of it’s ‘footprint’ and used it to see how it would fit my space. Walking around the footprint gave me an idea of it’s practicality in the space.
It spends most of it’s time butted against the wall, only moved out when the workpiece requires it (with infeed & outfeed stands as required). I still use a tracksaw and portable cut table for full size sheet goods.

[Phil Gaudio]

Sawstop: hands (with all five fingers) down.

[Brian W Evans]

Adrian,

Here is a link to a catalog that has the dimensions for the Minimax machine: LINK (https://www.scmgroup.com/products/docs/artis/minimax/Minimax%20gamma%20Classic%20e%20Lab/Minimax%20Classic%20range%20and%20Lab_rev00_feb20_ Eng.pdf), including how much space it requires.

I have a Minimax SC4 Elite (8.5' slider), which is a fantastic machine. It's in this catalog (https://www.scmgroup.com/products/docs/artis/minimax/Minimax%20gamma%20Elite/Minimax%20Elite%20range_rev00_feb20_Eng.pdf).

One thing that is possible with a slider is that you can do most or all of your work to the left of the blade and not really need the rip fence. You can therefore put the saw very close to a wall on the right side of the blade and have room for big outrigger on the left. If you have room to slide a 8.5' table forward and backwards, I would look for a used 8 foot slider. The machine itself will be more robust and you'll have the bigger capacity. I was able to leave the extension table on my saw to the right of the blade, but I almost never use it. I don't really think I'd miss it if I took it off.

My shop has poles, too, but I have just over 9' to the left of the blade and just enough room front to back for a full stroke of the slider. This covers 99.9% of what I need to do, even with sheet goods.

[Jim Andrew]

I have a K3 Winner, 79x48. A lot of the time I could get by with a 48x48, but it is nice to have the longer length occasionally. Never have seen a minimax, although have seen a SCMI, which is a great size for a cabinet shop. The owner of the cabinet shop said they bought and use it for the safety it affords. And is easy to square up their panels.

[Greg Parrish]

I’ve not listed it for sale but If you were closer I’d offer to sell you my Felder KF500 Pro setup. However it would be more than your budget if including the power feeder, bracket, blades, dado and shaper head. It’s in superb condition with nearly every option. I’m just not using it much these days. :)

[ADRIAN MACEIRAS]

Thanks everyone for their individual perspectives. This is a lot to digest and now I am leaning more towards buying the largest slider than can reasonable fit in my space. Unfortunately, I decided that I should first add A/C to my garage so working through installing a miniduct a/c atm which is going to delay this purchase by a few months.

[Jim Becker]

The MiniSplit is a great choice (no regrets from me on mine!) and yea...see what you can fit comfortably.

[Darcy Warner]

The table saw is way down on my list machinery that could maim me.

[Stephen White]

Thanks everyone for their individual perspectives. This is a lot to digest and now I am leaning more towards buying the largest slider than can reasonable fit in my space. Unfortunately, I decided that I should first add A/C to my garage so working through installing a miniduct a/c atm which is going to delay this purchase by a few months.

Hey I added a split AC (rated for 600') in my garage in Texas and really impressed. It is an attached garage with 3 walls insulated but that unit will get the shop comfortable in about 20 minutes in 100 degree heat and at a couple grand installed pretty cheap. I just bought a 2k contractors sawstop, maybe consider that for now since you have to do the AC and bump up later.