Plantation shutter joinery - biscuits ok?

[Robert Opalko]

I am building plantation shutters for kitchen windows (interior). The shutters will be painted. I have done one set of 4 (5 windows = 20 shutters) using M&T joinery. I didn't do a great job getting the mortises and tenons lined up and consequently the frames racked and don't close properly (I probably used too much clamping pressure too). I did not enjoy using the dedicated mortiser I have (Delta) it is just too finnicky to get the center. Additionally I don't have a good way to cut tenons except with a dado blade and going back and fort to test fit each mortise...took forever! Now to my question!

The shutters are 12" x 60" and the material will be 1-1/16" thick. I am thinking of using #20 biscuits for the joinery of the frame with 2 biscuits where each rail and stile meet. They would not be centered but roughly 1/4" of the way in the thickness of the material from each side - basically at the edges of where a "regular" tenon would be, sort of like in this picture:
430896

I would love your thoughts on this application and if you think it will work! Thanks again
430894
430895

Cheers

[Dave Sabo]

Now you know why mortice/tennon was the hallmark of craftsmanship.

To to answer your biscuit question, no. That will not be enough for a strong corner joint. You are placing the most stress on the biscuit's weakest axis.

Perhaps you you should consider using dowels. You could buy an adjustable jig for a few bucks , or I'd probably just make up my own for this project. A bit with a stop collar on it and you could whip them up almost as fast as the biscuit slots.

[lowell holmes]

I suggest you make test joints before committing to a particular method.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I've just finished cutting 268 Louvers for 10 windows of Plantation Shutters, 15 actual Shutters, most around 35" x 80".

I cut mortise and tenons for all the rails and stiles.

I finished a batch last year. I used a PM-TJ tenon jig for cutting 2" long tenons on my table saw and a PM719 for the mortises.

With the rail and stiles all at a constant thickness, it look minutes to setup each operation to produce consistent mortise and tenons.

I also have a Festool Domino, but not the XL. For the most part, there is not a lot of stress on the joints so I think large dominos of even 3/8" or 1/2" dowels would suffice.

You say you are in the deep south, if you are anywhere near Nashville, you are more than welcome to come use my mortiser.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIJWNBAUtyk

Continued.

[ChrisA Edwards]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w5ededWDHI

[ChrisA Edwards]

This build, I used my Shaper to make the tenons for the rails rather than the tabesaw tenon jig


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6cJ-qv_DU

[ChrisA Edwards]

My current batch of rails and stiles.

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Shutters/RailsandStilesCut_zpsrzuspibp.jpg

268 Louvers cut to length, with a few spare.
https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Shutters/LouversCutToLength_zpsq8m7rrg7.jpg

[Robert Opalko]

Thanks for the offer but I am not close to Nashville. All my rails and stiles were milled at the same time but the Delta mortiser did not prodeuce consistent mortises. The sides could be off by 1/16”. I think the casting of the mortiser was poorly made and I can see the chisel move when cutting. Yes I sharpen the chisels each time.


I've just finished cutting 268 Louvers for 10 windows of Plantation Shutters, 15 actual Shutters, most around 35" x 80".

I cut mortise and tenons for all the rails and stiles.

I finished a batch last year. I used a PM-TJ tenon jig for cutting 2" long tenons on my table saw and a PM719 for the mortises.

With the rail and stiles all at a constant thickness, it look minutes to setup each operation to produce consistent mortise and tenons.

I also have a Festool Domino, but not the XL. For the most part, there is not a lot of stress on the joints so I think large dominos of even 3/8" or 1/2" dowels would suffice.

You say you are in the deep south, if you are anywhere near Nashville, you are more than welcome to come use my mortiser.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIJWNBAUtyk

Continued.

[ChrisA Edwards]

What kind of wood are you using

[Robert Opalko]

Poplar for frame, basswood for louvers


What kind of wood are you using

[BOB OLINGER]

FWIW, I made about 27 plantation shutters from red oak about 10 yrs. ago. They range from about 26"- 70" in length . I started out with intentions of following Norm's procedures. I purchased a moulder, a bench top mortiser, and a tenon jig. I had never made mortises and tenons. After a short time, I declared the mortising and tenon corner jointing just wasn't going to work for me. Woodworking was (still is) a hobby, and I just didn't have the time or patience needed for this step. So, i used biscuts for all the corner joints. We've not had any joint failures. In our case, the shutters are seldomly opened (hinged), but my wife often adjusts the shutters. I have TOTAL respect for the above gifted Creekers that have mastered and used mortise and tennon jointing. However, the biscut application has worked without failure for us. Now, said that, a simple end table is in the planning stage (honey-do order) that will require mortise and tenon jointing on the legs. So, I'll see how that goes.

I found the shutter construction as very challenging (precise measurements are needed throughout construction) but very, very rewarding. If you have any further questions along the way, I'd be happy to pitch in on my experience.

[Joe Cowan]

I started making shutters for my house years ago using Norm's plan, and stopped after one window. The painting was too big a challenge for me, as I did not have a sprayer and tried hand painting.

[Robert Opalko]

Hi Bob, how many biscuits did you use in the corners (if you remember)?


FWIW, I made about 27 plantation shutters from red oak about 10 yrs. ago. They range from about 26"- 70" in length . I started out with intentions of following Norm's procedures. I purchased a moulder, a bench top mortiser, and a tenon jig. I had never made mortises and tenons. After a short time, I declared the mortising and tenon corner jointing just wasn't going to work for me. Woodworking was (still is) a hobby, and I just didn't have the time or patience needed for this step. So, i used biscuts for all the corner joints. We've not had any joint failures. In our case, the shutters are seldomly opened (hinged), but my wife often adjusts the shutters. I have TOTAL respect for the above gifted Creekers that have mastered and used mortise and tennon jointing. However, the biscut application has worked without failure for us. Now, said that, a simple end table is in the planning stage (honey-do order) that will require mortise and tenon jointing on the legs. So, I'll see how that goes.

I found the shutter construction as very challenging (precise measurements are needed throughout construction) but very, very rewarding. If you have any further questions along the way, I'd be happy to pitch in on my experience.

[BOB OLINGER]

Hi Bob, how many biscuits did you use in the corners (if you remember)?

Goodness, I'm not sure, but I think I put in 2 evenly spaced. Sorry, I can't definitively say :confused:

[Mel Fulks]

Never made any with adjustable slats ,but many with rounded edge slats , and the bevel slat type. Those are cut with
dado set and were much more expensive. We would make a ratchet stick and pawl to accuratlely cut the slots.

[Robert Opalko]

Thanks again. It always helps to hear from folks who have done something vs speculation.

I glued up a rough test frame yesterday with double biscuits, no slats. I just took it out of the clamps and it is extremely rigid. I don’t have a homemade test machine to measure force like the woodgears guy so I tested it the same way I test my welds, I bounced it on the concrete driveway :D. Actually I did it 3 or 4 times trying different angles to hit corners of the frame. The joints did not fail. I am sure if I did it enough I could get the frame to break, but... Yes this is not scientific and I don’t know how having louvers in it would affect the result but it did change my mind about biscuit strength...


Goodness, I'm not sure, but I think I put in 2 evenly spaced. Sorry, I can't definitively say :confused:

[Robert Engel]

IMO biscuits are not a substitute for joinery.

In my research on shutters and don't recall them mortised but rather dowelled. Building shutters is production work and mortising adds a lot of unnecessary work.

Dominoes would also bee a good choice. I see no reason why dowels couldn't be drilled all the way through from the sides to simplify the process.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I mentioned earlier doweling as a possibility. I bought the Milescraft 1311 dowel jig.

It is easy to use and very repeatable and accurate.

I would think the dowels would be much stronger joint than the biscuits.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adQgULMbg1o

[BOB OLINGER]

Thanks again. It always helps to hear from folks who have done something vs speculation.

I glued up a rough test frame yesterday with double biscuits, no slats. I just took it out of the clamps and it is extremely rigid. I don’t have a homemade test machine to measure force like the woodgears guy so I tested it the same way I test my welds, I bounced it on the concrete driveway :D. Actually I did it 3 or 4 times trying different angles to hit corners of the frame. The joints did not fail. I am sure if I did it enough I could get the frame to break, but... Yes this is not scientific and I don’t know how having louvers in it would affect the result but it did change my mind about biscuit strength...

Robert, thanks for the info. So, how strong do you need them to be? If I was in your situation, I'd consider "case closed." Wish you well.

[Robert Opalko]

Thanks, I havent seen this one; going to check it out.

[Robert Opalko]

This doesn’t appear to be self centering on a workpiece?


I mentioned earlier doweling as a possibility. I bought the Milescraft 1311 dowel jig.

It is easy to use and very repeatable and accurate.

I would think the dowels would be much stronger joint than the biscuits.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adQgULMbg1o

[Robert Opalko]

Thanks, so I am thinking you mean to clamp the frame up in some manner first, then drill all the way through the stiles into the rails? This sounds like I would need to be very precise in drilling at an angle parallel to the stile face..?


IMO biscuits are not a substitute for joinery.

In my research on shutters and don't recall them mortised but rather dowelled. Building shutters is production work and mortising adds a lot of unnecessary work.

Dominoes would also bee a good choice. I see no reason why dowels couldn't be drilled all the way through from the sides to simplify the process.

[Edwin Santos]

Thanks again. It always helps to hear from folks who have done something vs speculation.

I glued up a rough test frame yesterday with double biscuits, no slats. I just took it out of the clamps and it is extremely rigid. I don’t have a homemade test machine to measure force like the woodgears guy so I tested it the same way I test my welds, I bounced it on the concrete driveway :D. Actually I did it 3 or 4 times trying different angles to hit corners of the frame. The joints did not fail. I am sure if I did it enough I could get the frame to break, but... Yes this is not scientific and I don’t know how having louvers in it would affect the result but it did change my mind about biscuit strength...


Robert, thanks for the info. So, how strong do you need them to be? If I was in your situation, I'd consider "case closed." Wish you well.

I used to count myself among those that sneer at biscuit joinery, and then one day I had to take something apart that had been joined with biscuits and I could not believe how tenaciously they held. I think your driveway bouncing test tells you something about adequacy.

Are biscuits "better" than a mortise and tenon joint? Absolutely not.
Are they good enough to adequately complete your job? Probably yes.

Use the largest biscuit size you can. Double them up if you have the thickness to do so. Biscuits are designed to absorb glue as they decompress, so avoid starving the joint of glue.

I have had trouble with some brands of biscuits being inconsistent in thickness. So now I spend a few extra dollars and stick with the Lamello brand which are always snug.

If you end up going the dowel route, have a look at the Jessem Doweling jig.
Edwin

[Robert Opalko]

I am going to spray mine but the problem is finding an organic vapor respirator right now is, if not impossible, pretty darn close. I am hoping by summer they will be for sale again!


I started making shutters for my house years ago using Norm's plan, and stopped after one window. The painting was too big a challenge for me, as I did not have a sprayer and tried hand painting.

[Nate Secrist]

Hi Robert,

Do you have a pocket-hole (Kreg) jig? I used pocket holes to connect the rails to the stiles. I then plugged the holes and sanded them flush, since I was going to spray white lacquer on them.
The Kreg jig worked very well and it is very strong.

Thanks

Nate

[Robert Opalko]

I do have one, I may try that one set. I avoided asking about that here as I thought pocket-hole joinery was a four letter work on this forum from what I have read! haha
thanks and cheers


Hi Robert,

Do you have a pocket-hole (Kreg) jig? I used pocket holes to connect the rails to the stiles. I then plugged the holes and sanded them flush, since I was going to spray white lacquer on them.
The Kreg jig worked very well and it is very strong.

Thanks

Nate

[Robert Engel]

Thanks, so I am thinking you mean to clamp the frame up in some manner first, then drill all the way through the stiles into the rails? This sounds like I would need to be very precise in drilling at an angle parallel to the stile face..?

yes.

You would still use a jig or you can drill the stiles on the drill press first, assemble and use them as a guide to drill rails.

You can make a squaring jig for the shutters on the assembly table.

[Jim Becker]

If you keep a clear packing tape dispenser available in your shop, it's easy to prevent any staining/sticking relative to your clamps...just put a little tape on the clamp once you figure out where the glue joints will be. That's not limited to pipe clamps, either. My BowClamps have a layer of tape on them and I sometimes use the tape with my parallel clamps, too, depending on what I'm doing.