Appraisal Accuracy

[Mike Hutchison]

I have been puzzled by the lack of tools showing up on the Antiques Roadshow
and the appraisal values that come up on that show for a number of things.
One example of the latter would be when they do a re-play of an Early American
furniture piece and the value, some 15+- years later, is 30% less. Unless the
furniture has been heavily damaged in some manner in the interim, that is gibberish
in my view.
Recently I went to the PBS site-Antiques Roadshow and typed in "Hand Tool Appraisals"
I believe there were 9 results. Can't recall the time span the results covered. In any case,
one spot was for a No. 42 Bailey and a No. 1 Bailey. The No. 1 looked really good and had
original box. In this case, the "value" seemed a little high to me-$5,000.00
(The No. 42 was approx. $1,400.00)
Non-Serious Question 1:
Are tool collectors the "rowdy/unwashed" members of family?
I have found the "scholarship" applied to tool collection as intense, if less stodgy, than say
paintings or Asian artifacts.
Question 2:
Does anyone else wonder at the numbers that some of these folks come up with?
FWIW, my incredulity in re: "value/s" is not restricted to results on the Roadshow.

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, value lies in what someone will pay for something. Markets wax and wane. Go up and go down. Fifteen years ago, from memory, the market was higher for antique tools. It's just part of a cycle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

The value of old tools can be mysterious. A TV show will be very selective to maintain viewer interest, a $50 Bailey plane won’t make the show. Old hand router planes seem to sell for more than a new Lee Valley hand router plane! Years back Norris style infill planes were $900, now you you see the same for $233.
Museum quality with a box and good users are worlds apart. On line shows or blogs, (thinking of England) popularise certain tools and drive the price up.

Within any category there is a huge range of ‘condition’, you can buy in at a level matching your restorative skills and time on hand.

New tools are somewhat similar, an extreme example would be a new fret saw, ranging from $10 to $349; I have both.

[Warren Mickley]

The value of hand made antique furniture has gone way down. I was at an auction with an antique dealer last year. The auction seller had been one of his customers. He was buying pieces that he sold at a profit the the seller. The prices were much lower than he had bought them the first time, before making his profit.

My wife bought an 18th century Windsor by a famous maker for $40. The seller knew very well what he had, but she bought it because she liked the turnings. The workmanship is better than famous makers of today. Twenty years ago makers were charging $700 for such a chair.

[glenn bradley]

Derek hit the nail on the head. Speaking of "value" in general; if a Tiffany lamp is valued at $5000 and it doesn't budge while competitors are moving similar lamps at $2800 the seller needs to get aligned with the 'current' market. Something is as valuable as the market says it is regardless of original cost or our opinions. If it costs more to make or acquire something than the market will pay, that is a non-viable product. If you can make a pair of Oakley sunglasses for $5 and sell them for $350, that is a viable product :).

[Charles Guest]

Sad state of affairs, though there are some individual bright spots:

https://www.skinnerinc.com/search?s=Windsor+chair

Imagine six of these for $1,200:

https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/3275M/lots/115

The wood to build one would cost you almost what this sold for:

https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/3275M/lots/3

[Pete Taran]

Most of the appraisals are done by real tool collectors. Lee Richmond, who some may know did several in the past and has used this fact to promote his business. I know him personally and he is almost always at the MWTCA national meets. I once bought a pair of pristine snipe bills from him. You can see his profile at: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/appraisers/lee-richmond/

He also runs a site selling tools, but looks like he is winding it down after many years: https://www.thebestthings.com/

If Lee appraised it, it's likely worth what he says it is at that time. Of course, those value on the roadshow are what an owner would expect to collect from a collector. If you sell to a dealer, expect to get at least 50% less.

This appraisal has a video, and I think that appraisal is actually low even in 2014: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/season/15/washington-dc/appraisals/cesar-chelor-plane-ca-1755--201006T14/ Having that plane is like owning a Honus Wagner baseball card.

[Jim Koepke]

Searching for a #42 Bailey found many street addresses but no planes. Went to the Antiques Roadshow site and discovered it is a Stanley Miller's Patent #42.

As mentioned by Derek, the collector market fluctuates. For a collector finding a Stanley/Bailey #1 is no big deal. Finding a Stanley/Bailey #1 SW Hart with the original box and in superb condition is the challenge. In such cases having the box adds significantly to the perceived value.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Most of the appraisals are done by real tool collectors. Lee Richmond, who some may know did several in the past and has used this fact to promote his business. I know him personally and he is almost always at the MWTCA national meets. I once bought a pair of pristine snipe bills from him. You can see his profile at: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/appraisers/lee-richmond/

He also runs a site selling tools, but looks like he is winding it down after many years: https://www.thebestthings.com/

If Lee appraised it, it's likely worth what he says it is at that time. Of course, those value on the roadshow are what an owner would expect to collect from a collector. If you sell to a dealer, expect to get at least 50% less.

This appraisal has a video, and I think that appraisal is actually low even in 2014: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/season/15/washington-dc/appraisals/cesar-chelor-plane-ca-1755--201006T14/ Having that plane is like owning a Honus Wagner baseball card.

What is almost humorous, is seeing Lee Richmond swoop in on the dealers, at tool sales, such as the MWTCA shows. I've seen him pick out in moments a half dozen saws, priced at $10 to $15 each, then have the same saws show up (untouched, as on one occasion, I looked through the stack before Lee!) on his site at $75 to $150! Guess, some dealers should learn a bit more about what they're selling!

[Jim Koepke]

Guess, some dealers should learn a bit more about what they're selling!

This is something that always amazes me about some of the dealers in my forays into rust hunting. One of my regular stops had two pair of tarnished Starrett dividers priced at $2 for the small one and $3 for the large one. My comment to him was that he should look into these because his price was too low. My interest in dividers at the time wasn't what it is now. He kept asking my if I wanted them at the marked price. He practically twisted my arm. They came home with me and have become welcome additions to my kit:

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A used tool dealer in Portland seems to look on ebay for the best price on pristine items and then asks for that on rusted junk with missing parts. He does often have other items like special bits for a brace and other 'bulk items' that come through and are priced attractively.

For a buyer the important part is to learn to analyze the sellers. Some are softer on prices than others.

Candy often when hearing the appraisal on Antiques Roadshow will wave and say, "bye bye." There are many items we would sell in a heart beat at those prices. There are also those we would be happy to keep even at the prices quoted.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

While I understand the romance of using tools that have history - are current makers building superior products, for active use?

It seems to me that if we hope to keep interest in our hobby alive, we should pay a premium to keep those carrying on the tradition in business.

Paying $6000 for a plane means it's too valuable to use in a shop setting.

I doubt ALL my tools are worth so much.

It feels a lot like the market for vintage guitars that nobody plays. What's the point?

[al heitz]

Lo, some just love shelf princesses.

[Pete Taran]

Al,

That's not the point at all. The person who will pay $6000 for a Cesar Chelor plane is not buying it to use. It's part of a collection, just like baseball cards, coins, match box cars, comic books, etc. Some woodworkers are also collectors. Some collectors are just collectors. I'm a user and a collector. Some stuff is too nice to resell, some gets sold immediately. It all depends on how I like it and if I have a better one in the collection.


Lo, some just love shelf princesses.

[Andrew Seemann]

The value of antiques and collectables has taken a nosedive in recent years. Unless something is museum quality, it likely is worth less than it was than 10 or 20 years ago.

The reasons are pretty straight forward. Baby boomers are downsizing, and the generations before them are dying off, all at the same time. Gen X already has fully stocked houses and doesn't want any more stuff, and and Millenials haven't been able to afford big houses, don't have the collecting bug their parents did, and have different tastes. Basically the market is flooding with items that are having less and less demand.

Pretty much everything that was collected by the WWII generation, Silent generation, and Baby Boomers has dropped in value: Antiques, Lionel trains, Hummel figures, baseball cards, coins, stamps, muscle cars, you name it. All these collections are hitting the market at the same time. Much of it now isn't even worth what it cost originally.

Furniture has been particularly hard hit. Other than mid century modern, all the old styles are not in style now. The people building their households now don't want it. It doesn't fit their style or mode of living (let's not turn this into a Millenial bash thread either, if they don't like it; they don't like it. I'm 50 and like antiques, but my mother has plenty of family heirlooms that I don't want/need/have-room-for either). Large furniture is quite difficult to get rid of. China cabinets (no one uses fine china anymore, I can't remember the last time our wedding set saw the light of day, so why would you need a cabinet to house it?), curio cabinets (no one wants the Hummels or Waterford, no need for cabinet for it), and especially entertainment centers are nearly impossible to find a home for. Even charities often won't take them, because they can't give them away either.

Case in point, I have a 1959 Hammond A100 organ (basically a B3 with built in speakers) in good condition that I will happily give to anyone on this list for the price of hauling it out of my house (FYI this is a serious offer, PM me if interested). I think I paid $1,200 for it 15 years ago.

A few years ago, my brother, step siblings, and I went through my dad and his wife moving out of their house of 25 years and into the old folks home. We had a heck of a time getting rid of stuff. For example, I ended up with half of his woodshop, the fact is I really only wanted (and had room for) a quarter of it. This isn't me being ungrateful, it just was more stuff than I had enclosed space for. I'm still working on finding homes for some of the things.

Old woodworking tools seem to have held some of their value, I think they still have a utility value that keeps them from going lower, maybe not as bad as old coins, many of which are only worth the weight of their silver. They also have a certain "magic" some people; I admit, I prefer prewar 750 style chisels in certain situations over any current new chisel. Old tools also wear out, like that #4 blade in one of the other Neander threads, so they do need to be replaced over time, unlike a lot of other collectables.

p.s. That Hammond comes with a full pedal board, bench, and light too:)

[Jim Matthews]

The value of antiques and collectables has taken a nosedive in recent years. Unless something is museum quality, it likely is worth less than it was than 10 or 20 years ago.

Case in point, I have a 1959 Hammond A100 organ (basically a B3 with built in speakers) in good condition that I will happily give to anyone on this list for the price of hauling it out of my house (FYI this is a serious offer, PM me if interested). I think I paid $1,200 for it 15 years ago.



p.s. That Hammond comes with a full pedal board, bench, and light too:)

Does it have Bluetooth?

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[Zach Dillinger]

I'm a certified and USPAP-compliant personal property appraiser (stuff, not land/ buildings). An important thing to note about Antiques Roadshow and the like is that they almost always give insurance valuations, which are by definition not Fair Market Value. The differences are slightly technical and pedantic but an insurance valuation is not reflective of what an object would (or should) sell for in the retail or auction markets. If anyone has any appraisal questions, please feel free to get a hold of me.

[Mel Fulks]

Windsor chairs were cheap. So the survival rate is low. Part of that is they were used outdoors,too. That increases today's demand. Sideboards were expensive
but demand is low now and you can buy a period one cheaper than you can have one made. Hall chairs are interesting
but don't bring much. They were made as a kind of parking space for a servant to keep them handy. They are interesting
in their design variety and pretty cheap, but bear little resemblance to a Barca Lounger.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Old hand router planes seem to sell for more than a new Lee Valley hand router plane!

And that is why I own two new Lee Valley hand router planes.