Edge Joint after Ripping

[Mike Burke]

I am embarrassed to ask but I'm going to anyway.

For yrs I have cut my pieces, like rails n stiles, 1/16 wider and then edge joint to clean up the saw blade marks and get a finished smooth edge.

But as per my other post about my jointer..some times I will end up with different widths on the board, narrower on one end than the other....normal for a ill adjusted jointer ?
I always try to just run them over the jointer once but some times thats not the case.

Is this the correct way clean up the edge after ripping stock ?

Thanks

Mike

[Ron Selzer]

Glad you asked, very interested in the responses you get
Ron

[Peter Kelly]

Run the parts on-edge through the thickness planer.

[vince dale]

Stand them on edge and run them through the planer

[Prashun Patel]

I don't do it that way. I use a #4 hand plane or block plane set to a very fine shaving. this will remove the marks, but not alter the width.

My trouble with the jointer isn't the uneven planing (which probably just means your jointer needs alignment) but that it leaves the tiniest scallops that are only marginally better than the blade marks off the saw.

I have also run things through the planer on edge. It's risky on narrow parts, and risks snipe. If you're going to do it this way, cut your parts over length by 6" and cross cut after you do your jointing.

I suspect most planer users maintain their knives better than I do, but my planer can leave a tiny ridge if there is a nick in the cutter. A planed face or edge in my shop also benefits from a final pass with a smoothing plane to remove that sliver.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I do a similar process, but sometimes it's a little tough to tell which is the jointed edge and the newly sawn one.

I think a lot of your finish saw quality comes down to the saw blade you are using. If I'm ripping a lot, I put in a Forrest 20T thin kerf blade. This goes through wood like butter and produces a near glue joint edge almost every time.

I then, if necessary, pass the cut edge through the jointer, but most times, the sawn edge is smooth enough that 180-220 grit will remove any trace of a saw cut in seconds.

[brent stanley]

If my saw isn't set up well, I just use an outboard fence on the shaper to bring everything down to final width. This lets me use the power feeder for this last step, but I will also run them through the thickness planer on edge if they're wide enough and the shapers are set up for something else. If it's rail and stile work, I'll often just mill the profile at the same time as bringing it down to final width using the outboard fence on the shaper. Two steps in one, and again, the power feeder keeps the digits well away from everything.

B

[Eric Schmid]

You’ll want to start with getting your jointer set up properly. You need to be able to trust the results so the remainder of your preparation is consistent. Same goes for all machines used in the process.

My process has evolved as follows. With the full dimension stock, join face and one side. Then run this through planer, opposite face and side. Now rip on the bandsaw (or table saw), a bit oversized. Parts then get ganged on planer using reference surfaces from the jointer. Use final light pass to remove jointer marks.

If the original stock is being reduced to more than two pieces you’ll need to reestablish a reference surface for the additional pieces.

Hand planes are very useful for final fitting. With well tuned machines you will have very little to no final fitting/cleanup to do.

[George Bokros]

Get a good ripping blade like a Freud Glue Line Rip blade. I never have to do any clean up after ripping.

[Mark Daily]

Get a good ripping blade like a Freud Glue Line Rip blade. I never have to do any clean up after ripping.

+1: this is the blade I use and it works great. Just keep it clean and sharp. I take all of my blades to a good, local sharpening shop and they come back sharper than factory.

[Chris Fournier]

I am not a fan of gluing off the jointer. There are a lot of variables and most folks run their knives way too long and end up with a burnished edge which is not great for gluing. I have a rip glue blade on my table saw and I will use that to produce ready for glue joints. I make sure that my stock is flat, if it's not there's no point in moving on to edging. I have also learned not to be a miser in the shop, we deal with a waste factor and getting too caught up in this we tend to try to get too much out of too little. I mention this because it is my experience that the quality of a table saw cut is greatly reduced when the entire blade is not in the cut - material on both sides of the blade. Trying to get a good glue joint by taking off a 1\16" never really came out to my satisfaction. I usually leave 1/4" over finished dimension and get my final surface from there (my saw kerfs are about 3/16" due to 12" and 14" diameters). Keep your rip glue blade clean and sharp and avoid thin kerf models.

If a very log joint, or short one I suppose, doesn't close up nicely, as in perfectly I will haul out a suitable sharp bench plane to try and chase a good joint. Razor sharp hand plane and a careful touch is all you need. If you have a big #7 or #8 you can of course clamp up the two halves and run the plane over them simultaneously.

[Zachary Hoyt]

For small pieces like that I cut them slightly oversize on the bandsaw and then run them through the drum sander, which avoids the snipe and tearout problems that come with a planer, but the surface is still not finish ready without a little ROS cleanup.

[Richard Coers]

A 1/16" allowance is a ton to get rid of saw marks. You might want to buy a better saw blade. Not unusual for wood to move after ripping from internal stresses. I always put the jointed edge to the inside and often have to flush rout the outside to the case, or resize the stock when used in a door. A well tuned hand plane will remove only a few thousandths to rid the saw marks.

[Mel Fulks]

I think the biggest cause of problems is jointers with a stick to adjust out feed table. After that would be the
cheap low grade knives that most machines are "wearing". A hand wheel can be easily calibrated to move the table
a single thou.at a time to allow easy setting for hollow joints. All of my panel edge prep has always been done on jointer. The boards get an alignment V Mark
and are jointed one face "in" ,next face "out" which I find more reliable that trying to keep the fence perfectly square.
A small piece of grit in wood ,or the slightest dulling of knives,can make out feed table "climb", learning how to adjust outfeed is a must.

[Darcy Warner]

Any ripped or cut edge gets something else done to it, through shaper, sash sticker, tenoner, moulder, etc.

[Gregory King]

As Prashun mentioned, a sharp block plane is the most preferred. If the wood is straight grain, you get ideal jointing. But most times there will be a directional grain change part way down leading to tear out in most pieces. I find it easier to clamp the pieces in the vice and sand it with 120 grit in the ROS.

[Robert Hazelwood]

If the edge can go through the planer then typically that's what happens. Then a lick or two with a smoothing plane before assembly. Substitute sanding for the plane if you like.

The jointer in theory should not put a taper on an edge that is already straight, but it can't guarantee parallel like a planer can.

[Andy D Jones]

Glue line rip blades usually have "TCG" (triple chip grind) teeth to provide a smoother ripped edge.

Ensure that the saw blade is parallel to the rip fence. Some prefer to have it toed out a thousandth or two.

Use a feather-board when ripping, to consistently hold the wood up against the rip fence.

Sending them through the planer on edge, ganged together, also ensures final widths are uniform for all such pieces.

Sanding the edges while ganged and clamped together will also help steady the sander for better, more uniform results. Gang and clamp them together on a known flat surface.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Dylan Wyatt]

I am surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but maybe I am the only one it happens to. Sometime when I rough rip pieces on the tablesaw, due to stresses in the wood, the board will get a bit of crook in it. to remedy this, I normally run pieces through the jointer then through the planer on edge afterwards to get the exact same width of pieces. This normally happens only when the pieces are narrow. What could be causing the uneven width is that you get a slight crook in the pieces while ripping then when you joint one edge you are not taking off a consistent thickness but instead straightening a crook; therefore, yielding different widths.

[Mike Burke]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions/insights/advise.

The saw marks aren't that bad..I'm just picky. I use a Freud 10" combo blade most of the time and my table saw is tuned up in good shape.
My old craftsman jointer has a Non adjustable out feed table and the knifes are a pain to get just right.

Its a give and take game...get rid of the saw blade marks but might end up with jointer scallops if the knifes are off a little.
I am going to get a good block plane and learn how to use it. Good tool to have in my shop. I have couple but their not precision tools.

I thought it is interesting that many suggested to gang them up and run them through the planer...I have a buddy that does that and says that's a good way to go.

Thanks again for the replys
learn something everyday :)

[glenn bradley]

As expected, there are as many answers as there are woodkworkers. My tablesaw is aligned well enough to provide me a glue ready or other no-show surface. If the edge is going to be front and center with finish applied, like you, I require better. If it takes more than a pass over the jointer to remove your saw marks I would look to the saw and try to improve there. I use a pass or two with a hand plane but, I'm taking off pretty thin shavings. If you do a lot of rails and stiles that require edge cleanup you would find an oscillating edge sander to be a boon to your shop. See, plenty of answers ;-)

[Andrew Hughes]

Those craftsman jointers with a fixed outfeed are the worst. I had one till the blades flew out and destroyed the infeed table and head.
It doesn’t surprise me that your not satisfied with the surface it leaves. I couldn’t believe the difference when I finally bought a jointer with a adjustable outfeed.

[Mike Burke]

I am surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but maybe I am the only one it happens to. Sometime when I rough rip pieces on the tablesaw, due to stresses in the wood, the board will get a bit of crook in it. to remedy this, I normally run pieces through the jointer then through the planer on edge afterwards to get the exact same width of pieces. This normally happens only when the pieces are narrow. What could be causing the uneven width is that you get a slight crook in the pieces while ripping then when you joint one edge you are not taking off a consistent thickness but instead straightening a crook; therefore, yielding different widths.


Dylan..I have experienced this quite often....It happens to me too. You are right.

[Lee Schierer]

Mike, I've glued boards both ways depending on the project. I also have a full kerf Freud Glue line rip blade and it makes very smooth cuts. 95% of the lumber I use is kiln dried and dimensioned when I bring it home. I have very very little problem with reaction wood of any kind from my supplier. I am fortunate that my jointer has both tables that are adjustable.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions/insights/advise.

The saw marks aren't that bad..I'm just picky. I use a Freud 10" combo blade most of the time and my table saw is tuned up in good shape.
My old craftsman jointer has a Non adjustable out feed table and the knifes are a pain to get just right.

Its a give and take game...get rid of the saw blade marks but might end up with jointer scallops if the knifes are off a little.
I am going to get a good block plane and learn how to use it. Good tool to have in my shop. I have couple but their not precision tools.

I thought it is interesting that many suggested to gang them up and run them through the planer...I have a buddy that does that and says that's a good way to go.

Thanks again for the replys
learn something everyday :)

Regardless of how well your TS or jointer cut, they do not leave a finished surface IMO, at least for fine work. Perhaps good enough for a glue joint, but there are always tiny blade scallops or saw marks just due to the nature of how the tools operate, and when you apply finish they show up. So no matter what you have to finish the surfaces with a plane or sandpaper.

I encourage you to get a plane and spend some time learning to use it. However I would not recommend a block plane for this type of job. It can work well but only with cooperative grain, as Gregory mentioned above. I would instead recommend a #3 or #4 size bench plane- vintage Stanley, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or WoodRiver. They are more ergonomic than a block plane and, most importantly, they have the blade oriented bevel down and have a chipbreaker. With a little practice you can set the chipbreaker such that it eliminates tearout from reversing grain, and after sharpening that is the biggest issue new plane users have.

I try to finish almost everything with a plane, using little or no sandpaper throughout a project. You don't have to go to that extreme (I just don't like sanding) but its fairly easy to reduce the amount of sanding to just the finer grits.

If you decide to go down that road check out the Neanderthal Haven forum.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I think the biggest cause of problems is jointers with a stick to adjust out feed table. After that would be the
cheap low grade knives that most machines are "wearing". A hand wheel can be easily calibrated to move the table
a single thou.at a time to allow easy setting for hollow joints. All of my panel edge prep has always been done on jointer. The boards get an alignment V Mark
and are jointed one face "in" ,next face "out" which I find more reliable that trying to keep the fence perfectly square.
A small piece of grit in wood ,or the slightest dulling of knives,can make out feed table "climb", learning how to adjust outfeed is a must.

I have a jointer with a stick on the outfeed, and while I otherwise like the machine that feature is annoying. It can still be made to work by learning how to bump the stick just right. But a handwheel would be so much better. I understand the stick on the infeed, very quick and easy, but on the outfeed you rarely adjust and when you do you need precision and not speed.

[Randy Heinemann]

Regardless of the blade used to rip, I have never glued right off the saw. There is usually some slight rip marks. I would agree, though, that ripping 1/16" over size is too much. A 1/32", or possibly even slightly less is sufficient for doing a final jointing of the ripped edge as long as the first edge is jointed before ripping. I can almost always joint the ripped edge with only 1 pass through jointer taking less than 1/32" off.

I also agree with the response that, if you need the final width to be exactly the same as other parts, running through the planer on the last pass, taking a tiny amount off will accomplish that. I still think that ripping 1/32" over is sufficient for this method also.

[Scott Bernstein]

After reading all this maybe I should be doing something different...

I use a 16" jointer/planer combo machine to mill to final thickness and make one straight edge. I then rip to final width on my table saw, parallel to the jointed edge. I use a 3hp saw with a Ridge Carbide ripping blade. The edge of the piece is probably not totally glass-smooth like a skilled craftsman can do with a finely-tuned hand plane...but it's pretty close. I just go right to glue up from the table saw.

[Brian Holcombe]

Typically I’m planing on edge to make sure the part has parallel edges.

[Mark Hennebury]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slPslzwQh_M

[Robert Engel]

Glue line rip blades usually have "TCG" (triple chip grind) teeth to provide a smoother ripped edge.

Ensure that the saw blade is parallel to the rip fence. Some prefer to have it toed out a thousandth or two.

Use a feather-board when ripping, to consistently hold the wood up against the rip fence.

Sending them through the planer on edge, ganged together, also ensures final widths are uniform for all such pieces.

Sanding the edges while ganged and clamped together will also help steady the sander for better, more uniform results. Gang and clamp them together on a known flat surface.

-- Andy - Arlington TX
This ^^

A sanding disc on the table saw also works well.

[ChrisA Edwards]

That's cool, the machine plays smoothing music you can hear...:)

There's almost something therapeutic about watching the shavings peel off.

[Christopher Giles]

I have a Shelix head on my PM planer which cuts through the wood at an angle. This produces a smoother cut, but also can have a tendency to tip the wood part when running it on edge. This results in a cut that is square at the leading edge, and tipped considerably at the trailing edge, ruining the work piece. I find that in my case, 3/4" is not thick enough to resist this tipping effect, although thicker parts can be made to work. I have to rely on my jointer to remove saw marks, then an edge sander to produce a finished edge.

[David Eisenhauer]

Another factor in achieving a glue-capable run through a machine is to maintain a steady speed when pushing the material through the blade. Variations in the speed result in ridges in the surface and is one of the reasons that commercial outfits use powered feeders to push material through a machine. I can tell when I didn't plan my hand-position changes when ripping with either my TS or BS. On my TS, I use an older, full kerfed Freud 20t rip blade that typically leaves a glue ready surface if I maintain a fairly constant speed through the blade.

[Bob Riefer]

Perhaps I'm not being fussy enough, but I just went out to the shop to look at a large pile of boards that I ripped recently to check myself... I cannot see saw marks on any of the boards, nor have I ever noticed such a thing. I always use the table saw to rip to final width, and the edge obtained there is as nice as a jointed edge. I'm not claiming superior knowledge, this is how I was taught by a professional woodworker to do it.

(Note: and this is with a run of the mill saw blade, not some specialty blade)

Admittedly, I've only worked with maple, oak, pine, black walnut, ash, hemlock, black locust, and a mystery wood or two... so perhaps I'm just getting lucky?

[Jim Andrew]

Are these cuts for face frames or what use? On pieces that are not to be glued, I use my edge sander to clean up edges of boards. For glue-ups, I use my jointer.

[Dan Hahr]

Not trying to offend anyone here, but I've always felt that a glue line should be as invisible as possible. I align glued boards carefully to hide the different grain patterns and I make sure my edges are as square, smooth, and straight as possible. If edge gluing any boards into a panel, I always joint opposite sides in opposite orientations to eliminate any deviation from 90 degrees. If I hit it with a plane afterwards, it is set to only remove the ridges left by imperfections in the jointer knives and the scallops. Most times, I just drag a sharp scraper along the edge to accomplish this as I tend to screw it up more with a plane.

If I am dressing stiles or rails, or need to clean up aprons, etc, I rip to parallel on the table saw and joint one edge for square. I then plane the opposite side for square and parallel. I use the slow speed on my finishing planer and rarely have an issue with snipe due to the stiffness of the board on edge. Anything that needs to be the same width goes through the planer on edge (up to about 3" max). I do use straight knives.

I have several quality saw blades including a Freud Glue Line Rip. Even when new, the slightest adjustment of pressure on the board while ripping will result in saw blade marks. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they are not there. You can make a very nice glue joint with a glue line rip blade, but you can make it even less visible with a dressed edge. Use some stiff chalk to rub down your cut edge and highlight the blade marks... you might be surprised.

Now, you don't have to be as picky as I am.... a saw cut glue line is usually plenty strong enough.

Dan

[Mark Hennebury]

Joint, rip oversize, joint, thickness plane, finish with fine set handplane or supersurfacer.
Glue- up panels, always fitted with fine tuned hand-planed finish.

[Patrick Walsh]

Joint,

430539

Rip,

430540

Plane,

430541

I do all that oversized then repeat the whole thing after it sits overnight say 1/4” at time till I get to within 1/8” of where I want to finish. I then joint, rip, plane, joint rip plane one more time or two more times however you wanna slice it.

Did this today, well over a few days as it was 6/4 material.

I’m wicked picky and I just run the boards on edge through the planer on both edges for my last passes and my glue joints are prefect everytime. I do have a insert cutterhead so that helps. Never seen the scallops be a problem regarding my edge joints.

430542

430543

[Andy D Jones]

re: Supersufacer; Does Marunaka offer an optional accessory to roll those shavings onto cardboard tubes?...

Could make a lot of money these days with that...

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Mike Burke]

I would like to thank all that have contributed to this thread. Several of you have taken the time to share your techniques and shared your photos...Thanks for taking the time. It has been a eye opener for me in my pursuit for becoming a better wood working craftsman.


I have had some of my thoughts confirmed about getting a thickness planer in the future.


I have had my eyes opened to some hand tools that I have never pursued. A couple months ago I dug out some Old hand planes that have been around my work place for yrs. I posted on the Neanderthal Forum about them. Well yesterday I took one apart and did a quick restore. Knocked the rust off and did a crude sharpening of the knife. Its not perfect but it has sparked a interest for going with Hand Planes. I found two planes and in the photo is a no. 4 that I plan on using. I might need to get some new knifes.



The results were way better in one way than my jointer with no scalloping from the jonter knifes and a nicer finished edge. It will be a learned talent to keep the edge square.



I could go on but I will cut it short. This has been one of the most educational threads for me and has steered me to learn something new in my wood working.


Thanks430585

[Brian W Evans]

Jeez, Patrick, you need to get some better tools and a real workbench! :D

Seriously, VERY nice shop and some gorgeous lumber.

[Gregory King]

Joint,

430539

Rip,

430540

Plane,

430541

I do all that oversized then repeat the whole thing after it sits overnight say 1/4” at time till I get to within 1/8” of where I want to finish. I then joint, rip, plane, joint rip plane one more time or two more times however you wanna slice it.

Did this today, well over a few days as it was 6/4 material.

I’m wicked picky and I just run the boards on edge through the planer on both edges for my last passes and my glue joints are prefect everytime. I do have a insert cutterhead so that helps. Never seen the scallops be a problem regarding my edge joints.

430542

430543

Patrick, I was admiring your jointer table extension in the first picture. I definitely need one for my 8" Poitras. Was attempting to edge joint some 12' ash alone in the shop. Obviously the first 4 feet was a real struggle alone. How is your leg adjustable on that? Thanks. Greg