New Grizzly 0623x or 2 year old Hammer K3 Floor demonstrator sliding tablesaw

[Bob Hardin]

Hi all,
couple weeks ago I stated that I pulled the trigger on a Hammer K3 saw. Well, it still hasn’t shipped (maybe soon). So, my dilemma is should I cancel this purchase, and purchase a new Grizzly 0623X for a couple grand less?

I’m pretty upset that the Hammer is still sitting on the showroom floor. But I guess my real question is, is the 2 year old European slider as a demo worth that much more that the Grizzly is new?

Any thoughts or considerations I need to consider?

bob

[Stewart Lang]

I wrote a review of my G0623x not too long ago. I honestly love it, I'd have no hesitation about pulling the trigger on one again, especially compared to the pricier Hammer. I've seen a few Hammer's in person. They're alright, but I don't think there's much there to make it that much better than the G0623x. They almost felt flimsy to be honest, at least in comparison. My G0623x slides super smooth, cuts perfectly square with easy repeatability if you need to take the slider fence off. Plenty of support for cutting 4x8 panels, rips well, came setup well from the factory. Easy to adjust basically anything. Plenty of HP. I can't see what a more expensive Hammer would have to offer.

I do think certain lower-end European makes tend to be a bit hyped up, like Hammer, especially for the price. Grizzly offers better value in that range. Higher-end European makes are probably built better, but also much more costly.

Here's my review btw: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?275570-2019-Grizzly-G0623x-10-quot-Sliding-Table-Saw-Review

[Richard Coers]

I wouldn't take 10 seconds to make the decision. Hammer all the way. Better machine in my opinion and much better resale if that makes a difference.

[ed vitanovec]

I was real happy with my G0623X, had to sell due to several moves.

[David Buchhauser]

That Grizzly G0623X slider looks like a fine piece of equipment - in my estimation. I'm sure that the Hammer is a nice machine also, but at 2K more for a used one I feel that the G0623X is worth some serious consideration.
David

[Mike Kreinhop]

Is the shipping delay of the Hammer a result of recent world events? If so, do you think the Grizzly will be delivered sooner?

[David Buchhauser]

Grizzly generally ships their larger equipment via UPS Freight. From my recent personal experience, most of the UPS stuff has generally been running on time. The Grizzly site shows the G0623X in stock at both locations available for immediate shipment. In addition, it's on sale thru April 20 at a nice 10% discount (savings of $339 - which will probably be enough to cover most of the freight + sales tax). As an added bonus, it is manufactured in Taiwan (not China) which generally indicates better quality. I know this from personal experience with my Grizzly equipment.

Sounds like they're keeping the Hammer on the showroom floor for the time being. Bob would need to contact the vendor directly to get the facts. By the way, I've always had prompt shipping and extraordinary customer service from Grizzly - I've probably got at lest 20 of their machines. Also have some top of the line Japanese stuff (Matsuura, Nakamura Tome, etc) to compare the Taiwan machines to.
David

[David Stone (CT)]

Just going by the pictures on Grizzly's website, the sliding table design on the G0623X appears to preclude the user from standing in the conventional position while ripping with the rip fence because the fixed part of the sliding table sticks way out from the front and there's a leg, occupying the real estate where your body would be. I assume the alternative is to stand to the left of the saw and lean over, which felt awkward, at best, when I tried it on my saw, especially passing my arm over the top of the blade (even with the guard on and using a push stick). I'd be curious to hear from those who have this saw how they use the rip fence and whether or not this design feature is a drawback in practice--or maybe I am missing something? Note that the K3 (and some other small sliding table saws) have a table that only sticks out less than a foot, so you can stand where you would with a cabinet saw.

[Steve Wurster]

I own a K3 Winner 79x48, and I never even really considered buying a Grizzly equivalent. The fit-and-finish of the Hammer is almost certainly better than the Grizzly. As David notes, those legs would probably get in the way, and aren't present on the Hammer machines. The smaller crosscut fence on the Grizzly just looks like a stock miter gauge; compare that to the Hammer which has a registration piece on the sliding table itself that allows for perfect setup each time, and a very beefy fence. The Hammer also supports 12" blades, although with the Hammer/Felder bore w/ registration pins so unfortunately you can't use standard off-the-shelf blades.

A brand new K3 48x48 starts at $4790 right now; that's obviously without an outrigger (that's an $1100 accessory for that saw). What model is the used K3 demo machine? I'm thinking it's either larger or has more accessories than the stock K3 48x48.

[Jim Becker]

After looking at the photos in the referenced previous thread, I have to say that I'd much prefer the design of the Hammer. I'm a sliding saw user, although a larger one. There are reasons that Euro sliding saws are designed the way they are and it seems like the alternative product has compromises in design that I wouldn't appreciate. I will note that I'm not concerned with quality of the alternative product at all...the manufacturer stands by their products. My concern is with the actual design; one is designed for purpose and one appears to be assembled from a combination of stuff that already exists in other formats. But that's just an opinion...

[Derek Cohen]

Hi all,
couple weeks ago I stated that I pulled the trigger on a Hammer K3 saw. Well, it still hasn’t shipped (maybe soon). So, my dilemma is should I cancel this purchase, and purchase a new Grizzly 0623X for a couple grand less?

I’m pretty upset that the Hammer is still sitting on the showroom floor. But I guess my real question is, is the 2 year old European slider as a demo worth that much more that the Grizzly is new?

Any thoughts or considerations I need to consider?

bob

Hi Bob

You do not say which K3 you have selected, that is, the length of the slider, and what accessories come with the package.

I have had a K3 for the past 3 or so years, and I think that it is built like a brick outhouse. Mine has provided faultless and precision service. I work with West Australiann hard wood, and there is nothing harder! The 4 hp K3 powers through everything. I am very happy with it.

The Grizzly looks to be a nice machine. I expect that you spent the same amount on the K3 in question. However, the K3 is likely to be a machine worth double the Grizzly, and generally there is a good reason for this.

Is there a reasonable reason for hold up in delivery? Such as Covid-19?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Hardin]

No, not covid delayed. Just normal delays.

[Bob Hardin]

Ok, I’m sold. I’ll give Felder a couple more days. They've already been paid and it’s a bit frustrating. I want to start playing! Lol

[Mike Kreinhop]

Ok, I’m sold. I’ll give Felder a couple more days. They've already been paid and it’s a bit frustrating. I want to start playing! Lol

At least you're not waiting on a new K3.

[Derek Cohen]

OK. The guys at Felder in Perth provide fantastic service. Obviously not necessarily so in your area (where are you?).

You have to ask yourself which saw you really want. In your heart. If it is the K3 - well you could have purchased the Grizzly at the time but did not do so - another month may not mean much in the grand scheme of things. In a year, the frustration of waiting will be forgotten. At the same time, good backup is important, and is this a portend of things to come?

I assume that you have spoken with the Seller and asked them why the delay?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Hardin]

So true. They said 3-6 months (maybe more). Ouch!

[Bob Hardin]

So, the drama continues... After I called about the saw not being shipped, they finally shipped it Wednesday. The delivery estimate said expected delivery Friday the 17th. Well on Friday I called the shipping company and they said it was still on the dock in Delaware (I live in Georgia).

Then the shipping company called later Friday and asked if they could deliver it Monday. I said sure; then asked what kind of truck would deliver it. They said an 18 wheeler. Well only one problem; there is a covered bridge they have to cross to get to my house that is only 13’ high. They said the truck was 13’ 6” high.

I had specifically told Felder that I needed a box truck to deliver this machine with a lift gate because of the bridge. And I had it written into the contract. I told them I wouldn’t purchase it if I had to pick up an 800 lb machine because I have no way to move it.

So I called my rep on Friday and explained. He said he would get back to me that afternoon. Know what I heard? CRICKETS!!!

I am so soured on this deal. I know I’m small potatoes, but $5k is alot of money to me for a demo (aka: used) machine that’s 2 years old! I expected more from a company with the reputation of Felder!

Any advice?

[Mark e Kessler]

Sorry I can’t offer advise but Is this deal out of The Delaware location? I can’t speak about the other locations but if so sounds familiar, it’s like pulling teeth - took over a year to resolve a defective j/p (which was to my satisfaction and am happy with the replacement, albeit took forever). And now they are trying to pass the buck on a defective saw that was delivered in October which took forever to even order because of the lack of return calls.

hope it works out, Mark



So, the drama continues... After I called about the saw not being shipped, they finally shipped it Wednesday. The delivery estimate said expected delivery Friday the 17th. Well on Friday I called the shipping company and they said it was still on the dock in Delaware (I live in Georgia).

Then the shipping company called later Friday and asked if they could deliver it Monday. I said sure; then asked what kind of truck would deliver it. They said an 18 wheeler. Well only one problem; there is a covered bridge they have to cross to get to my house that is only 13’ high. They said the truck was 13’ 6” high.

I had specifically told Felder that I needed a box truck to deliver this machine with a lift gate because of the bridge. And I had it written into the contract. I told them I wouldn’t purchase it if I had to pick up an 800 lb machine because I have no way to move it.

So I called my rep on Friday and explained. He said he would get back to me that afternoon. Know what I heard? CRICKETS!!!

I am so soured on this deal. I know I’m small potatoes, but $5k is alot of money to me for a demo (aka: used) machine that’s 2 years old! I expected more from a company with the reputation of Felder!

Any advice?

[Scott Bernstein]

Sorry to hear about all the troubles with Hammer/Felder. I purchased by combo jointer-planer last year from the Delaware location. I reported on the delivery and installation process in another post. I anticipated the most difficult part of the process would be the "last mile" to the house and actually getting it in the garage. To avoid all that, I hired a rigging crew to deliver it. The 18-wheeler from Hammer/Felder was able to deliver to the rigging company warehouse and from there they brought it on a smaller rollback flatbed truck along with three guys, a forklift, and a great insurance policy to my garage. If you can afford this saw, you can afford a rigging crew.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Sorry to hear about the hassle. For what it's worth, I think you'll be very happy with the Hammer once it arrives. And while $5k might seem like a lot of money to you, it's probably peanuts to Felder (not to excuse poor service, but you don't buy the cheapest car on the used car lot and expect them to roll out the red carpet for you). Finally, my experience with Felder is that they have a very "German" attitude: there is no "customer is always right" mentality, business practices are conservative/slow (this isn't Amazon 2-day shipping, etc).

Take a breath. You're buying a fairly exotic piece of equipment. It won't show up overnight.

[Bob Hardin]

Thanks Dan. Very nice reassurance.

[Steve Wurster]

I'm pretty sure when I had both of my Hammer equipment delivered, I arranged the truck size with the shipping company, and not with Felder. I think Felder just contracted with the freight company, who later called me and arranged delivery time and truck size. Definitely call the freight company first thing on Monday, hopefully before they put the pallet on a truck.

[Bob Hardin]

I'm pretty sure when I had both of my Hammer equipment delivered, I arranged the truck size with the shipping company, and not with Felder. I think Felder just contracted with the freight company, who later called me and arranged delivery time and truck size. Definitely call the freight company first thing on Monday, hopefully before they put the pallet on a truck.

I talked with them Friday. They said they don’t own smaller trucks. I really don’t know what’s gonna happen. Interesting though.

[Matthew Hills]

I talked with them Friday. They said they don’t own smaller trucks. I really don’t know what’s gonna happen. Interesting though.
would it be feasible to rent a box truck with lift gate (and pallet jack?), and transfer at a point they can manage?
I'd probably want to check out the pallet size... that would be annoying if it doesn't fit on the lift gate.

Matt

[Rick Potter]

If you paid to have it delivered to your door, and told them of the bridge and problems, you shouldn't have to do anything but be there when it is delivered. It's their problem, don't make it yours.

[Jim Becker]

I kinda have to agree with Rick here. You were up-front about the delivery challenges and requirements. The vendor needs to deal with this.

The machine you're getting is a very good tool. It's just disappointing to hear of your customer service challenge...keep on working the phone.

[Bob Hardin]

I kinda have to agree with Rick here. You were up-front about the delivery challenges and requirements. The vendor needs to deal with this.

The machine you're getting is a very good tool. It's just disappointing to hear of your customer service challenge...keep on working the phone.
I am trying. Yes, I was upfront, that’s why I had it specified in the sales agreement. I just hate being in limbo. Oh well!

[Mike Kreinhop]

It's easy for someone who doesn't have an interest in the saw delivery to say let the vendor figure out the delivery. Our hopes won't be dashed if the delivery truck arrives at the choke point, backs up, and returns to the depot.

If I was expecting the saw, and had little confidence that the vendor or shipper paid any attention to my delivery restrictions, I would be proactive with coordinating with the vendor or the shipper. Been there, done that.

[Bob Hardin]

The manufacturer called late today and said they can get it delivered as in the agreement for an additional $440. I told them “no way”! They then said maybe they can get it reduced. I told them to get it reduced to zero as per our agreement or cancel the order. They said if i cancel then I forfeit the original $1080 deposit. I asked why I would lose anything since they were the ones not abiding by the agreement/contract. They said let’s see what they can do.

I am so ticked that I really don’t want their equipment anymore. Oh well, we’ll see what happens Tuesday...

[mreza Salav]

The manufacturer called late today and said they can get it delivered as in the agreement for an additional $440. I told them “no way”! They then said maybe they can get it reduced. I told them to get it reduced to zero as per our agreement or cancel the order. They said if i cancel then I forfeit the original $1080 deposit. I asked why I would lose anything since they were the ones not abiding by the agreement/contract. They said let’s see what they can do.

I am so ticked that I really don’t want their equipment anymore. Oh well, we’ll see what happens Tuesday...

That's bizarre. I would be upset to the point of wanting to take my business elsewhere too. Hopefully someone sobers up and realizes they have to honor a contract once agreed on.

[Mark e Kessler]

So you are saying that your bill of sale says delivery included? Is there a line item showing the dollars for delivery? I have received a machine shipment for free from Felder and the invoice shows the cost for delivery then a subtraction of that charge with a note of something like “management discount” or somthing like that.

What am I missing? as much as I would like to bash Felder....

mk



The manufacturer called late today and said they can get it delivered as in the agreement for an additional $440. I told them “no way”! They then said maybe they can get it reduced. I told them to get it reduced to zero as per our agreement or cancel the order. They said if i cancel then I forfeit the original $1080 deposit. I asked why I would lose anything since they were the ones not abiding by the agreement/contract. They said let’s see what they can do.

I am so ticked that I really don’t want their equipment anymore. Oh well, we’ll see what happens Tuesday...

[Bob Hardin]

So you are saying that your bill of sale says delivery included? Is there a line item showing the dollars for delivery? I have received a machine shipment for free from Felder and the invoice shows the cost for delivery then a subtraction of that charge with a note of something like “management discount” or somthing like that.

What am I missing? as much as I would like to bash Felder....

mk
It says shipping/handling $475. The next line says “Shipping is quoted as a residential lift gate service via a box truck.” This is because of me being in the mountains.

[Jim Becker]

So you have it in writing...that's good. (Do keep in mind that some box trucks have that same height as a tractor-trailer since you have a bridge involved)

[Mark e Kessler]

ok, thats good, why are they asking for more did you request a change? Don’t know if this helps but i am on the side of a (small) mountain/hill as well and a steep drive with a 90deg turn and a 26’ box with lift can barely do it, took the felder tech 1 hr to get it up around the corner and turned around so a standard delivery service would just drop it at the bottom, also can’t even be done i. The winter. I found that UPS freight has a small liftgate truck that can get up (but not in winter). If it hasn’t shipped i would call around (maybe u did that already?) and check on that then have felder ship via that freight company, thats what they did for me.


It says shipping/handling $475. The next line says “Shipping is quoted as a residential lift gate service via a box truck.” This is because of me being in the mountains.

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight but the Covid situation is creating all sorts of chaos right now for anyone who is trying to deliver things via third-party LTL. In fact, we had a conference call for the whole US sales team about this yesterday. Companies saying they can deliver via R/LG and then backing out on that, freight costs changing on almost a weekly basis (even though gas is cheap right now, labor is the issue), cases where we arranged for inside delivery and now, the driver "Doesn't want to do it" because they have to go inside an enclosed building and aren't being supplied with PPE by their company, etc. I have no knowledge of the OP's situation except to say, trust me: We want to get machines delivered just as much as the customers want to to receive them but our carriers keep moving the goal posts on us, too. I hope this makes sense.

Erik

[Bob Hardin]

No dog in this fight but the Covid situation is creating all sorts of chaos right now for anyone who is trying to deliver things via third-party LTL. In fact, we had a conference call for the whole US sales team about this yesterday. Companies saying they can deliver via R/LG and then backing out on that, freight costs changing on almost a weekly basis (even though gas is cheap right now, labor is the issue), cases where we arranged for inside delivery and now, the driver "Doesn't want to do it" because they have to go inside an enclosed building and aren't being supplied with PPE by their company, etc. I have no knowledge of the OP's situation except to say, trust me: We want to get machines delivered just as much as the customers want to to receive them but our carriers keep moving the goal posts on us, too. I hope this makes sense.

Erik
Thanks Erik. The machine is actually sitting in Atlanta, about 80 miles away.

[Bob Hardin]

ok, thats good, why are they asking for more did you request a change? Don’t know if this helps but i am on the side of a (small) mountain/hill as well and a steep drive with a 90deg turn and a 26’ box with lift can barely do it, took the felder tech 1 hr to get it up around the corner and turned around so a standard delivery service would just drop it at the bottom, also can’t even be done i. The winter. I found that UPS freight has a small liftgate truck that can get up (but not in winter). If it hasn’t shipped i would call around (maybe u did that already?) and check on that then have felder ship via that freight company, thats what they did for me.
Mark, nope no changes requested. My property is actually easy to get to; just not with an 18 wheeler (he could get here (except for the height) just wouldn’t be able to turn around).

[Alex Zeller]

Did you pay with a credit card (at least the deposit)? If so I would stop payment. I'm guessing if they have the choice between eating shipping to Atlanta and back as well as crating they should be a little more willing to get it the last 80 miles. You may want to give them the option of crediting you the cost of renting a truck that could pick it up and bring across that bridge. Other than that I would ask to speak to a supervisor or manager and see if they will want to resolves this. If it's part of the sales agreement then they are obligated to honor their side.

[David Kumm]

If I had a machine 80 miles away at a freight terminal, I'd go and get it. You can rent a drop deck trailer and a pallet jack and be home in half a day. That is a pretty light machine. Waiting for someone else to fix a problem seldom goes well. Dave

[Ronald Blue]

So what happened here? Did they get it to you or did you have to figure out how to get it to your shop?

[Bob Hardin]

So what happened here? Did they get it to you or did you have to figure out how to get it to your shop?

ok, so my sales rep took the reigns and got them to deliver in a van the next day, at no extra charge. He was good all along. There are some parts missing (saw blade guard and riving knife, among others). But, got it hooked up and am pleased with the quality.

[David Publicover]

Congratulations on the new saw! I’m glad it worked out the way you wanted. At least the missing pieces could be mailed or you could take a drive and fetch them. No big logistics issues there. Enjoy your new toy!

[Bob Hardin]

Congratulations on the new saw! I’m glad it worked out the way you wanted. At least the missing pieces could be mailed or you could take a drive and fetch them. No big logistics issues there. Enjoy your new toy!
Actually, I’m in Georgia and they’re in Delaware. Pretty good road trip. Lol

[David Publicover]

Oops. I thought it was an 80 mile trip. Pack a lunch rather than a suitcase lol! In any case, enjoy!

[Gary Sosa]

I cannot accommodate a semi in my property either. Last June, the shipping company planned to deliver my K3 on a semi, though I had explained my requirements to Felder-Sacramento. They got it sorted and a forklift brought the K3 (79 x 48) to my converted 1920s chicken coop in Salt Lake. They pushed the pallet into the structure and I wrestled it into place. Wow! I’m amazed every time I use it (so far mostly ripping boards for the shop conversion. I’ll be breaking down some plywood for the interior soon, and have been watching lots of YouTube “fritz and franz” videos, figuring out workflow, and scaring myself with my own lack of experience. And enjoying every minute. You’ll be having fun soon. Looking back, Felder has been great to work with.

[Jim Andrew]

Think you got a great deal! Mine was 7000, and I had to wait months to get it, then they delivered it to my local Coop, and I had them load it on my tilt bed lawn mower trailer, which I backed into my shop and unloaded it.

[Bob Hardin]

Think you got a great deal! Mine was 7000, and I had to wait months to get it, then they delivered it to my local Coop, and I had them load it on my tilt bed lawn mower trailer, which I backed into my shop and unloaded it.
Thanks Jim. Having fun with it