Sharpening Plane Irons and Chisels, Sandpaper?

[Jon Middleton]

I have a CBN wheel coming for my half speed Delta grinder, and am setting up the Wolverine tool rest. I want to use a granite tile and wet dry sandpaper to flatten my waterstones and hone my tools. I also bought one of the cheap Wood River honing guides which doesn't look too bad. What brand/type of sandpaper works best?

[Andrew Nemeth]

John,

You may want to repost this over in Neanderthal haven or have one of the mods move this thread there. Lots of sharpening talk over there.

As for an answer to your question, I’ve always just used wet/dry aluminum oxide paper commonly used for auto body work since it’s locally available. However, I soon learned that paper was much more expensive in the long run and bought a coarse (500) Atoma diamond plate and Shapton GlassStones. I use the Atoma to flatten the GlassStones.

I’m not an expert by any means, but I’d imagine people will want to know what water stones you already have, and what additional you are hoping to achieve with sandpaper. If you already have a CBN wheel coming, and you have a few water stones, it may be best to just invest in a stone or two, and/or a stop and some honing compound.

If you’re set on disposable media, and your looking for “the best”, you may want to check out Lee Valley as they stock multiple types of sharpening films (I see diamond, aluminum oxide, and micro-abrasive). I’ve always been too impatient when it comes to such a commodity and have locally sourced aluminum oxide wet/dry paper from NAPA or other auto supplies stores. I know many people have mentioned being happy with the sharpening films from Lee Valley. If I was still using paper and/or film, and since I can’t just run down the street to the store anymore, I’d order a variety from lee valley and see what works best with my steel.

[David Bassett]

Most sand paper will cut most metal used in hand tools. Wet / dry will allow you to use a lubricant (water w/ a few drops of dish soap is easy/common). If you have some less common super-steel, the diamond films (e.g. from LV) or the grinder belts with ceramic abrasive (e.g. 3M's Trizac???, forget name) might be necessary. Also, auto supply stores are more likely to have finer grit papers than the paint section at your hardware / big box store.

Search "scary sharp" on this site for a gazillion specific recommendations.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a CBN wheel coming for my half speed Delta grinder, and am setting up the Wolverine tool rest. I want to use a granite tile and wet dry sandpaper to flatten my waterstones and hone my tools. I also bought one of the cheap Wood River honing guides which doesn't look too bad. What brand/type of sandpaper works best?

Jon, you may want to say what grit the CBN wheel is that you have. For plane blade and bench chisels I recommend 180 grit.

The honing guide is a copy of the Eclipse, a great standard, no longer made. Unfortunately, the Chinese copies require tuning to work well (such removing paint and filing the base flat).

I would stay away from sandpaper if you want optimum results. For a primary bevel, a 1000 diamond stone, and polish on 8000 Pro Shapton. That is a basic system.

Honing guides are for creating secondary bevels. Do not attempt to hone full bevels. You will waste time and effort. The idea of sharpening is to be repeatable, and you need to make up a simple jig to set up the honing guide to set the angles each time.

25 degree primary and 30 degree secondary will work for all blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

I guess I'd better start popping the Pop Corn....salted? Buttered? Plain? Caramel?

[Robert Hazelwood]

Sandpaper works fine, it's just more annoying to use. Needs to be stuck down well, either PSA paper or using spray adhesive. When you want to change you have to remove the adhesive residue, etc.

What I like sandpaper for is coarse work, because I've found coarse stones of all types to be lacking. Either they don't stay flat or don't stay fast cutting. And since I only do coarse work (like flattening a chisel back for example) very occasionally, the hassle isn't much of a burden. For everyday honing a stone is much more convenient, and is just nicer to use. However I think you can get a perfectly good edge with sandpaper alone.

You mentioned you have waterstones, so I'd use those for sharpening tools. IF you are missing a grit then fill in with sandpaper.

For the coarse sandpaper grits I normally use, 80 and 220, I like Mirka Gold. Though I doubt there is a huge difference between brands.

[Jon Middleton]

I have some basic waterstones, 400/1000 and 3000/8000. I guess I just need to keep them flat. I ordered the CBN from Rob Cosman, an 80 grit. He has an interesting take on sharpening, establishing the primary bevel with the coarse wheel, taking it all the way down to just short of the edge. Then just honing a tiny secondary bevel with a 16000 grit stone. I'll try the coarse wheel, it's just a matter of getting the bevel even across the tool. The sandpaper could be used to flatten the stones, I guess, or maybe buying a stone from Sharpening Supplies. Rob uses a diamond lapping plate, but those are quite expensive.

[Tom M King]

The easiest surface to use sandpaper on is a granite surface plate. It has just enough texture that a film of water will hold the sandpaper in place, without having to glue it down, which makes changing grit sizes really easy. I still use sandpaper for sharpening some things, like 8" jointer knives. If you don't wear a sheet out, it can be rinsed, and left on the sink to dry for next time.

Woodcraft sells nice granite surface plates, usually on sale several times a year for around 30 bucks.

[David Bassett]

... Rob uses a diamond lapping plate, but those are quite expensive.

I'd argue not in the long run. Many options for diamond flatten plates. Atoma plates, while not perfect and not the cheapest, are generally well respected for flattening. Some people have reported good luck with the really cheap generic plates from China. Others have reported problems, e.g. not flat or poorly bonded diamonds.

I really like Japanese Knife Imports' store brand diamond flattening plate. Cheaper than Atoma, (unless Amazon has a stupid cheap moment,) and I know and trust the owner, Jon, to insure the quality:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-supplies/products/diamond-flattening-plate

Their store front is shutdown with Los Angeles' shutdown / shelter orders, but they've been allowed to resume shipping.

[Robert Hazelwood]

The sandpaper will work well enough for flattening water stones. The diamond stones are just more convenient.

I agree with Tom about the granite surface plate. Woodcraft sells one that is 6" wide and 18" long, which is perfect for the sorts of tasks woodworkers would use a surface plate for. And dead flat, which is not necessarily true for a granite tile.

[Tom M King]

Sandpaper wears out awfully fast flattening stones. I bought two replacement Atoma sheets-140, and 400, and put them on one of those Woodcraft granite surface plates, but my sharpening sink drainboard has room for several surface plates, and one double swivel spout covers anything on that drainboard. I don't know where you would get the replacement sheets, these days, though. Stu got his Sister to pick them up for me back when he was doing that sort of thing. We do a Lot of sharpening though, working on the old houses.

[Scott Winners]

I used sandpaper for a while, with a piece of float glass for a backing plate to keep the sandpaper flat. It worked just fine, but the price of the sandpaper eventually got my attention.

Then I "upgraded" to a various sizes of abrasive grit, just the grit in jars and was getting sections of close out vinyl floor tile from my local flooring place cheap/free. It didn't take long to realize my edges were changing the shape of the surface of the vinyl flooring that was carrying the adhesive- and my edges were coming out crowned instead of square. So I stopped doing that. Do not do this. I can send you some grit free if you need to convince yourself. Try them on one blade that needs a lot of work anyway, then go back and do it right.

I went to diamond stones because I don't have running water in my shop.

If you do have running water, and a drain, and some water stones already, I would seriously suggest you look at filling out your water stone collection. The folks that have them - and are set up to use them - rave about them. Maybe one diamond plate for water stone flattening. Besides no running water and no drain, my shop also gets below freezing a couple times annually, very very bad for waterstones and plumbing.

Since my coarsest diamond plate is 300 grit, I do still occasionally bust out the plate glass and sandpaper when I need 60/100/220 to get up on the 300 grit diamond stone with a new to me vintage tool, but my diamond stones paid for themselves in sandpaper $ savings fairly quickly.

[Jim Matthews]

Whatever works fast enough that you'll keep blades sharp is a good choice. I figure for most of us occasional woodworkers, the costs are comparable over the years.

I never found sandpaper sufficiently durable to survive my hamfisted attempts to sharpen.

My two oil stones and a strop fit in a Tupperware tote.

[Arnold Maguire]

Hi Jon: I was able to get 4 nice long pieces of tempered plate glass by looking on buy/sell websites for someone getting rid of old fireplace screens/enclosures. Regular old wet/dry sandpaper sheets from the hardware store work ok, but I glue them to the glass with 3M adhesive. Water will make them stick, but also makes them tear too easily.
I have also used the micro films sheets for the finer grits with success, and being plastic film, they don't tear like the paper.

[Chris Fournier]

Flatten your coarsest waterstone however you like and then use it to flatten your other finer stones. Rinse them all and off you go. Sandpaper is expensive, a bit annoying to use and pretty messy. My opinion only. But I do use it on granite to flatten my 800 grit stone.

[Jon Middleton]

Flatten your coarsest waterstone however you like and then use it to flatten your other finer stones. Rinse them all and off you go. Sandpaper is expensive, a bit annoying to use and pretty messy. My opinion only. But I do use it on granite to flatten my 800 grit stone.

I tried fine drywall screens but they didn't last very long. Same story with wet dry sandpaper. I wonder about the Double-Time stone from Sharpening Supplies. It will require flattening too after a time, which isn't great. Sounds like the Trend products aren't very flat. Any thoughts on the Atoma, DMT or the Shaptons?

[Andrew Nemeth]

The Atom 400 ‘whetstone’ that I have is quite flat and works well for me to flatten my Shapton GlassStones. I use the Atoma 400 to flatten my 1000 GlassStone, then I use the 1000 to flatten the 4000, and the 4000 to flatten the 8000. I have used the Atoma to flatten my 4000 and 8000 GlassStones too, but Atoma just seems to eats too much of each stone and the finer stones get considerably more expensive. I’m not sure which way is better or less expensive, but my feeling is that both methods work about the same and I’m preserving my more valuable stones. Maybe someone else can chime in on that because, as I’ve said, I’m not sure which method is better.

Atoma is a bit of a unique product as they are constructed with a flat plate that a much thinner diamond impregnated layer is layered on top of. The diamond impregnated layer is removable for replacement and is available by itself. I believe some people have just purchased the replacement layer(s) and adhered to the substrate of their choice. I’m considering getting a coarser replacement sheet to add to the back side of my Atoma plate for flattening chisel and plane blade backs as I do a bit of tool restoration.

As for cost, that is the reason went the Atoma route. As of 3 years ago, it seemed like the best value for me. There are probably superior flattening products on the market, both diamond sharpening plates and purpose built flattening plates, but the cost of some of those products was more than the cost of the three stones I own. If I remember right, there was another diamond product that was comparable price wise (maybe something from DMT) but the quality control for flatness was suspect. Since I was ordering online, I went with the Atoma instead of rolling the dice and potentially having to deal with returns. You can pick up the Atoma “whetstones” on Amazon. I’m sure I didn’t pay more than $50 for mine when I purchased it 3 years ago.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing and how it works out for you.

[Jon Middleton]

I ordered the Double Time Flattening Stone today. But in the meantime, I finally got around to trimming a piece of granite that had been the kitchen backsplash before a remodel. It' about 21"x21", so a nice large, flat surface to work on. I used a drywall screen and was able to get all four surfaces flat enough. Each one would stick to the others with water. The screen left some scratches, so I finished the 3000 and 8000 grit stones with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I was able to sharpen three chef knives to cutting newspaper.

The guy a Sharpening Supplies said that the DTFS will last three years with normal use. I may start with the drywall screens first and thereby slow the wear on the DTFS. The Norton Flattening stone is cheaper at $32. The DMT diamond lapping plates are $200, but you need two of them as one will only do under 1000 grit, the other 1000 grit and above.

[David Bassett]

I ordered the Double Time Flattening Stone today...

So, you drop $50 on a stone that will wear instead of a $55 diamond plate that is well regarded and used by many or the Atoma diamond plate used by many more (most?) which I just saw on Amazon for $65?

Interesting.



... but you need two of them as one will only do under 1000 grit, the other 1000 grit and above.

That is not my experience, nor the experience reported by most people I've heard state a preference. In fact the only people I know seriously advocating multiple grits of diamond plates literally have thousands of dollars of stones and are either trying to optimize a specific stone for a specific purpose or just treat multiple plates to play with as a negligible cost. Confused as to the authority that specified this is a "need".

[ken hatch]

Norton makes a flattening stone, also made of Silicon Carbide. You might want to do a search of SMC to read reviews. BTW, I read the "Double Time Flattening Stone" promotional material. Two things about that material, one stated and one not: the DTFS is not for use on Arkansas stones because it is not hard enough. The not stated part or at least I didn't see it was after the first use how do you keep the DTFS flat.

The Norton stone is worthless, I expect the DTFS is the same.

ken

[Chris Fournier]

I tried fine drywall screens but they didn't last very long. Same story with wet dry sandpaper. I wonder about the Double-Time stone from Sharpening Supplies. It will require flattening too after a time, which isn't great. Sounds like the Trend products aren't very flat. Any thoughts on the Atoma, DMT or the Shaptons?

I've never used those brands Jon.

[Jon Middleton]

So, you drop $50 on a stone that will wear instead of a $55 diamond plate that is well regarded and used by many or the Atoma diamond plate used by many more (most?) which I just saw on Amazon for $65?

Interesting.




That is not my experience, nor the experience reported by most people I've heard state a preference. In fact the only people I know seriously advocating multiple grits of diamond plates literally have thousands of dollars of stones and are either trying to optimize a specific stone for a specific purpose or just treat multiple plates to play with as a negligible cost. Confused as to the authority that specified this is a "need".

The diamond lapping plates I saw are the DMT, which include the Dia-Flat, recommended for waterstones coarser than 1000 grit:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Dia-Flat-Lapping-Plate-P412C111.aspx

and the Dia-Flat 95, which is recommended for waterstones 1000 grit and finer:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Dia-Flat-95-Lapping-Plate-P451C111.aspx

The recommendation for two plates came from David at Sharpening supplies, because the regular Dia-Plate leaves scratches on the finer stones.

The Shapton is $400, highly recommended by Rob Cosman:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Shapton-Diamond-Lapping-Plate-P237C111.aspx

I have not seen a $50 diamond lapping plate.

[Jon Middleton]

Norton makes a flattening stone, also made of Silicon Carbide. You might want to do a search of SMC to read reviews. BTW, I read the "Double Time Flattening Stone" promotional material. Two things about that material, one stated and one not: the DTFS is not for use on Arkansas stones because it is not hard enough. The not stated part or at least I didn't see it was after the first use how do you keep the DTFS flat.

The Norton stone is worthless, I expect the DTFS is the same.

ken

I won't use the DTFS on anything besides waterstones. I hear that it's possible to flatten the DTFS, but it's supposed to stay fat for several years. As I said above, I can prolong its useful life by flattening the waterstones with drywall screens first.

[David Bassett]

... I have not seen a $50 diamond lapping plate.

$55. Post #9 in this thread:

I'd argue not in the long run. Many options for diamond flatten plates. Atoma plates, while not perfect and not the cheapest, are generally well respected for flattening. Some people have reported good luck with the really cheap generic plates from China. Others have reported problems, e.g. not flat or poorly bonded diamonds.

I really like Japanese Knife Imports' store brand diamond flattening plate. Cheaper than Atoma, (unless Amazon has a stupid cheap moment,) and I know and trust the owner, Jon, to insure the quality:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-supplies/products/diamond-flattening-plate

Their store front is shutdown with Los Angeles' shutdown / shelter orders, but they've been allowed to resume shipping.

Amazon popped up one of the Atoma's for $64 several days ago. (It might be $120 today, they & their 3rd party vendors make pricing weird.) You can search there if you're really curious.

You ask here, many people took the time to answer, and then you appear to have ignored them and listened to the sales guy. (BTDT, got a box of stones out in the garage I keep saying I should sell, but honestly can't figure out why anyone would want them for even the cost of shipping. :( )

[Jon Middleton]

$55. Post #9 in this thread:


Amazon popped up one of the Atoma's for $64 several days ago. (It might be $120 today, they & their 3rd party vendors make pricing weird.) You can search there if you're really curious.

You ask here, many people took the time to answer, and then you appear to have ignored them and listened to the sales guy. (BTDT, got a box of stones out in the garage I keep saying I should sell, but honestly can't figure out why anyone would want them for even the cost of shipping. :( )

That's a bit harsh. I looked at that plate, it says to not use it on 400 grit stones. I didn't ignore it, was just looking for one plate do flatten all my waterstones. Maybe I'll look at it again. Not sure about the Atoma, don't really care too much for the replaceable sheets. It's $73 on Amazon today, replacement sheets are $80 for four? Maybe that would be better.

[Tim Nguyen]

I just recently went down a similar path, so I will share my limited experiences. I tried the water stones and the diamond plates. I personally settle on the diamond plate after gouging my water stones. I was using Naniwa Chosera water stone since I had 800, 1000, and 3000. I next tried the Ultra Sharp stone kit. I like them and the wider size made it nice. They were heavy and stay put.

But than I tried the super cheap thin diamond stones. For example from this guy. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0826QD5TT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I got the 400, 800, 2000, and 3000. Follow up with a super cheap 6000 water stone. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D6M2FTP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Advantages:
Cheap, cheap, cheap.
It works and cuts and polish nicely. I can shave hair afterward, but I stop testing on myself. Just a few passes on the stropping leather helps.
Disadvantages:
Thin. make sure it is well supported. I made a sharpening station a la Paul Sellers. The plywood backer helps support it and stops splashing little grit spot on my admittedly throw away bench top. Hummm, maybe I should think about that....
I found the 400 grit has worn down some, but still cuts well. Maybe closer to the 800 now. Full disclosure, I did abuse the 400 when I started. Did I say cheap, cheap?

I found keep a consistent grounding angle was harder. I upgraded to the Veritas honing guide and it has been good. If I was doing a do over, I would rather use the Lie Nielsen guide. The Veritas is finicky with the angle projection. I tried using some stop blocks, but found I skew the blades and have to readjust.

[Rafael Herrera]

I started with waterstones, the hassle of keeping them flat and all the dancing around with different grits made me look for something else. I switched to a Washita and a strop for most of my routine sharpening. Be cautious of the advise of internet gurus that may have a financial stake on what you buy.

[ken hatch]

I started with waterstones, the hassle of keeping them flat and all the dancing around with different grits made me look for something else. I switched to a Washita and a strop for most of my routine sharpening. Be cautious of the advise of internet gurus that may have a financial stake on what you buy.

Rafael,

Smart move, one, two or even three Arkansas stones will likely cost less than one of the high tech water stones and if you are not sharpening thick A2 cutters are probably faster if you count all the prep work on the water stones and they get the cutter just as sharp. The bonus is those stones will last your life time and likely your grandkids life time.

Full disclosure: I have sharpening round heels and love to use/play with different stones including way too many JNats, a number of different synthetic water stones, most of the different make diamond stones and oil stones. Of the lot when I'm serious about sharpening the cutter to do some work the Pike Lilly White Washita, the Norton Hard White, and the Dan's Hard Black come out to play. The only stones that work as well as the Arkansas stones are the JNats and there is an order of magnitude or two difference in cost.

BTW, there is a lot of sharpening sizzle and little steak being sold.

ken

[Jon Middleton]

I started with waterstones, the hassle of keeping them flat and all the dancing around with different grits made me look for something else. I switched to a Washita and a strop for most of my routine sharpening. Be cautious of the advise of internet gurus that may have a financial stake on what you buy.

Hi Rafael, I'm circling back to your way of thinking. I bought waterstones for our kitchen knives after watching a bunch of videos put out by the guy at Burrfection. He doesn't flatten his stones because he doesn't thin it's necessary. Maybe not for knives, but sharpening plane irons and chisels requires a flat surface. I bought a nice little Veritas block plane a little bit ago so I could trim the splines off flush on some picture frames I've been making. So, deeper dive than really necessary into planes, sharpening, etc. Watched lots of Rob Cosman videos.

I had a couple of Norton combination aluminum oxide stones along with a couple of nice Washita stones for over 20 years, but somehow they disappeared in a kitchen remodel. I think I'm going to buy an oil stone system, as I agree that the waterstones require more flattening than they're worth. They do fine for kitchen knives, though. There's a guy, Stefan Wolf, on youtube, who gets more than satisfactory results with his oil stones, which seem much less finicky than waterstones. So, my question is, any ideas on a complete oil stone system for sharpening? I plan on starting with a replacement Norton JB8, or maybe the Crystolon, then add one or two natural stones. Been looking at the Natural Whetstone website and it looks like a solid company. Ideas?

[ken hatch]

Hi Rafael, I'm circling back to your way of thinking. I bought waterstones for our kitchen knives after watching a bunch of videos put out by the guy at Burrfection. He doesn't flatten his stones because he doesn't thin it's necessary. Maybe not for knives, but sharpening plane irons and chisels requires a flat surface. I bought a nice little Veritas block plane a little bit ago so I could trim the splines off flush on some picture frames I've been making. So, deeper dive than really necessary into planes, sharpening, etc. Watched lots of Rob Cosman videos.

I had a couple of Norton combination aluminum oxide stones along with a couple of nice Washita stones for over 20 years, but somehow they disappeared in a kitchen remodel. I think I'm going to buy an oil stone system, as I agree that the waterstones require more flattening than they're worth. They do fine for kitchen knives, though. There's a guy, Stefan Wolf, on youtube, who gets more than satisfactory results with his oil stones, which seem much less finicky than waterstones. So, my question is, any ideas on a complete oil stone system for sharpening? I plan on starting with a replacement Norton JB8, or maybe the Crystolon, then add one or two natural stones. Been looking at the Natural Whetstone website and it looks like a solid company. Ideas?

Jon,

I'm going to jump in and add my thoughts as your question is in my wheelhouse. First, I've never dealt with Natural Whetstone, they may be a good company or not but some of the sellers are better at the patter than the walk. I have many stones from Dan's and from Dan's you get what you paid for.

A natural oil stone is not good for grinding for that a course or medium India works well and is very cheap. For honing and polishing I use three stones (truth is two stones would work just as well). The three stones are first a Washita, followed by a Hard White Arkansas from Norton, then final polishing on a Dan's (Ultra Fine) Black Arkansas. Of the three stone rotation either the Washita or the Hard White could be skipped with little effect on the quality of the edge.

Translucent stones are pretty but they cost more and I've never found one that will polish as well or better than the Black Arkansas. One thing to remember about oil stones, they are natural stones and all will be slightly different. I have several Black Arkansas stones but the one I use daily is special and will go to the grave clutched to my breast.

ken

ken

[Jim Koepke]

I plan on starting with a replacement Norton JB8, or maybe the Crystolon, then add one or two natural stones. Been looking at the Natural Whetstone website and it looks like a solid company. Ideas?

My small Crystolon stones are great for coarse work. Great for working out nicks.

Less aggressive are some Washita stones. These are a bit difficult to find as they haven't been quarried for a while.

My main Arkansas stones are from Dan's Whetstones > https://www.danswhetstone.com

A hard Arkansas and a black Arkansas do most of the fine work. The soft Arkansas isn't as aggressive as hoped. It cuts a little more aggressively than the hard Arkansas. It gets used for very minor nicks or when a blade has gone too long without sharpening.

My eyes are always looking for different stones at yard sales, flea markets and estate sales. Found a nice 8"X1"X1/2" Washita at an estate sale for $1. It was mixed in with a lot of well worn Crystolon stones. The woman said her departed husband sharpened scissors in his time.

Across the shop is my water stone sharpening set. Now that things aren't freezing they will likely get more use.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Hi Jon,

My dad and I built a workshop many years ago, mostly power tools. He's gone now and I decided to start building things about a year ago. I also decided to use mostly hand tools. I started to buy mostly vintage tools to equip my workshop. I also have a preference for vintage cast steel cutting tools. To sharpen these tools I currently use a Washita stone and a strop with paste. I have a coarse diamond stone and a fine crystolon, that I use, along with sandpaper, to restore the edge of the tools I buy. So far I manage with that. I only have one iron made of A2 steel, for the new Stanley block plane, that I can easily get a burr with the Washita and finish it with the strop.

Out of curiosity I bought an oilstone mined in Canada, the seller claims it is Novaculite. I sometimes finish a blade with it. It is harder than my Washita, it cuts slowly, but it can get a burr. It leaves a little more polished surface. I don't use it that much. The Washita and strop are enough for my needs.

To recondition my stones I used coarse silicon carbide grit on float glass. I got all my stones flat with that. I used sandpaper at first and it took a long time and it was very dusty.

I think I spent about $200 on this setup. When you research this, you get all kinds of advice to get Tormeks, all kinds of ceramic stones, natural japanese stones, diamond stones, this jig and that jig, these sequence of grits, etc. etc. They may be necessary if you are dealing with some of the harder steels like PM-V11 or A2, but for my carbon steel tools, they're not necessary. In fact, they're necessary if you must have 32.5 degree bevel with the 37 degree micro bevel, and the back bevel, and the mirror finish, and the sub-micron level flat face, etc. In less than 1 minute I am back planing or paring with my setup.

At some point I will splurge on a black Arkansas from Dan's, but I'm not in a rush.

For a little historical context, the Washita stones were marketed to carpenters and joiners. A Lily White Washita was all he needed to keep his tools sharp (some even used the palm of their hands as a strop to finish a plane iron.) For other trades, like carvers, die makers, dentists, surgeons, they recommended a hard Arkansas to get really keen edges and avoid gouging the stone. Check this pamphlet, it's very interesting: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31175035165789&view=1up&seq=3.

Nowadays, the consensus seems to be that you can get the well graded newly mined Novaculite Arkansas stones from Dan's Whetstone. For a less expensive alternative one can buy them from Natural Whetstone.

Good luck,
Rafael

[steven c newman]

I have a very coarse oil stone
I have a 600 grit Medium India oil stone
I have 1k, 1.5K, 2k, and 2.5K grit wet or dry paper
432186
432187
I have an old leather belt for a strop....haven't added any "green stuff" to it, in almost a year.

And THAT is it for my sharpening set-up. Usually just the 600 and the 2500 and then the strop...to "refresh" an edge.

YMMV....but this is mine.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Hi Rafael, I'm circling back to your way of thinking. I bought waterstones for our kitchen knives after watching a bunch of videos put out by the guy at Burrfection. He doesn't flatten his stones because he doesn't thin it's necessary. Maybe not for knives, but sharpening plane irons and chisels requires a flat surface. I bought a nice little Veritas block plane a little bit ago so I could trim the splines off flush on some picture frames I've been making. So, deeper dive than really necessary into planes, sharpening, etc. Watched lots of Rob Cosman videos.

I had a couple of Norton combination aluminum oxide stones along with a couple of nice Washita stones for over 20 years, but somehow they disappeared in a kitchen remodel. I think I'm going to buy an oil stone system, as I agree that the waterstones require more flattening than they're worth. They do fine for kitchen knives, though. There's a guy, Stefan Wolf, on youtube, who gets more than satisfactory results with his oil stones, which seem much less finicky than waterstones. So, my question is, any ideas on a complete oil stone system for sharpening? I plan on starting with a replacement Norton JB8, or maybe the Crystolon, then add one or two natural stones. Been looking at the Natural Whetstone website and it looks like a solid company. Ideas?

Fine India - replaces 800/1000 grit waterstone (Norton)

Soft Arkansas - Replaces 3000-5000 grit waterstone (recommend Natural Whetstone)

Translucent Arkansas - Finishing stone (recommend Dan's for this one)

These are what I use, along with my translations to a typical waterstone routine. You really can't directly compare grit ratings with natural stones but these are the functions each serve in the routine.

Get a coarse or medium Crystolon if you want to do heavy work like removing knicks, but I don't recommend them for day to day sharpening because they are friable, somewhat like waterstones, and won't stay as flat as an India. But the Crystolons are the fastest cutting stones I have used, it's just not something that's needed day to day.

The fine india and soft ark are relatively inexpensive, but a good trans ark or surgical black ark is pricey. Dan's is good about getting the surface flat and with a good finish, very important for the translucent ark. For the soft ark I have heard that Dan's tend to be a bit finer and slower cutting than you'd want, and that Natural Whetstone has a more aggressive stone. That's what I bought and I really like the soft ark, cuts fast but leaves quite a good surface, ready for the finishing stone.

[Jon Middleton]

Thanks, everybody. I watched a video wherein a guy dulled a blade intentionally on a coarse stone, then sharpened it on a combination Norton India stone followed by a strop. It was very sharp. I'm thinking that the Norton, either the IB8 or larger IM2, is a good way to start. I misspoke above, as the JB8 is the Crystolon version. The Fine side is supposed to be 400 grit, I don't think I'll have much use for the coarse side. Following that up with an Arkansas, maybe the soft from Natural Whetstone makes sense. I'd rather avoid the very pricey translucent stones, maybe a strop would be a good way to go? I'm not really into planing .001" wisps off a 2" thick slab of curly maple, just want a clean cutting edge on my chisels and planes. Lots of approaches out there, I prefer something simple. I sharpened my chisels with the CBN 80 grit wheel from Cosman followed by the fine side of a cheap silicon carbide stone, then 1500 grit sandpaper on granite. They're sharp enough, but I think there's a better way.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

$55. Post #9 in this thread:


Amazon popped up one of the Atoma's for $64 several days ago. (It might be $120 today, they & their 3rd party vendors make pricing weird.) You can search there if you're really curious.

You ask here, many people took the time to answer, and then you appear to have ignored them and listened to the sales guy. (BTDT, got a box of stones out in the garage I keep saying I should sell, but honestly can't figure out why anyone would want them for even the cost of shipping. :( )

when you see a crazy cheap price on the Atoma. On one occasion, it was just the sheet that you can attach to the plate (so that you can replace the diamonds if you wear them out).

[Rafael Herrera]

Jon,

Did you use this 80 grit wheel every time you sharpened? Wouldn't that remove a huge amount of metal over just a few sharpenings?

Have you considered the diamond plate alternatives? Have a look at this blog post, for about $20 you could set up a sharpening system (https://paulsellers.com/2020/03/edge-sharpening-under-10/).

Rafael

[David Bassett]

when you see a crazy cheap price on the Atoma. On one occasion, it was just the sheet that you can attach to the plate (so that you can replace the diamonds if you wear them out).

Heck, some of them are probably counterfeit. Hard to tell sometimes with Amazon 3rd party sellers.

Back when they were harder to find in the US they seemed to go for $110-120. The fact they were so much cheaper in Japan was part of what Stu offered with his service. Then the plated sheet of diamonds was usually only $10 less than the sheet plus substrate. So the replacement sheet only doesn't seem to explain the bulk of the price drop.

BTW- stock Atoma's are plenty good enough for stone flatten IMO. But the double stick tape between the substrate and diamond sheet can telegraph slightly, for more critical uses you can improve the flatness (slightly, it's not much out) by reworking that interface. There's a thread here, from maybe 5 years ago?, that describes that effort.

[Jon Middleton]

Jon,

Did you use this 80 grit wheel every time you sharpened? Wouldn't that remove a huge amount of metal over just a few sharpenings?

Have you considered the diamond plate alternatives? Have a look at this blog post, for about $20 you could set up a sharpening system (https://paulsellers.com/2020/03/edge-sharpening-under-10/).

Rafael

Good question. The answer is no. If you watch Rob's video, he regrinds the primary bevel only after repeated honings make the honed area too long. You grind the primary bevel down to where only a very narrow secondary bevel remains, just a sliver. You then only need to hone a very small area to produce a cutting edge. As Rob explains it, only the secondary bevel contacts the wood. It's a very easy and quick process.

[Charles Guest]

Jon,

Did you use this 80 grit wheel every time you sharpened? Wouldn't that remove a huge amount of metal over just a few sharpenings?

Have you considered the diamond plate alternatives? Have a look at this blog post, for about $20 you could set up a sharpening system (https://paulsellers.com/2020/03/edge-sharpening-under-10/).

Rafael

The grinder is only meant to thin 99% of the time. It only shortens when you need to go all the way to the cutting edge to take out a nick. If you regularly produce a burr at the grinder you're wasting tool steel, and have a misunderstanding of the purpose of the tool.

[Jon Middleton]

The grinder is only meant to thin 99% of the time. It only shortens when you need to go all the way to the cutting edge to take out a nick. If you regularly produce a burr at the grinder you're wasting tool steel, and have a misunderstanding of the purpose of the tool.

Agreed. That's what Cosman says and what I do.

[Rafael Herrera]

Good question. The answer is no. If you watch Rob's video, he regrinds the primary bevel only after repeated honings make the honed area too long. You grind the primary bevel down to where only a very narrow secondary bevel remains, just a sliver. You then only need to hone a very small area to produce a cutting edge. As Rob explains it, only the secondary bevel contacts the wood. It's a very easy and quick process.

There are quite a few Cosman's videos. He strikes me as an entrepreneur trying to get you to buy something.

I looked into these CBN wheels and they sell for $100 and up. The Cosman branded one is $180. He's selling his products using a format where he teaches you something.

I'm not inclined to follow this type of advise, it reminds me of personalities like Rachel Ray, I don't buy pots and pans from Rachel Ray just because she recommends them.

My personal experience is that I've only needed to grind the bevel of vintage tools or nicked edges. The quickest way to do it is with sandpaper and a honing guide. I use a bench grinder in the worst cases. I would not spend my limited budget on a $180 wheel that would be used only occasionally.

There are many different approaches to sharpening, I prefer old school and cheap, chose what suits you best.

Raf

[Jon Middleton]

There are quite a few Cosman's videos. He strikes me as an entrepreneur trying to get you to buy something.

I looked into these CBN wheels and they sell for $100 and up. The Cosman branded one is $180. He's selling his products using a format where he teaches you something.

I'm not inclined to follow this type of advise, it reminds me of personalities like Rachel Ray, I don't buy pots and pans from Rachel Ray just because she recommends them.

My personal experience is that I've only needed to grind the bevel of vintage tools or nicked edges. The quickest way to do it is with sandpaper and a honing guide. I use a bench grinder in the worst cases. I would not spend my limited budget on a $180 wheel that would be used only occasionally.

There are many different approaches to sharpening, I prefer old school and cheap, chose what suits you best.

Raf

Hi Raf. I bought the CBN wheel because it's better balanced, holds up well, never needs dressing, etc. It's expensive, but not prohibitive. Between the time I ordered it and it was delivered I used my old wheels to grind the bevels. It worked fine, but I don't regret buying the CBN. It's easier and faster for sure. In retrospect, I think a finer CBN wheel would be better for my use. Rob prefers the 80 grit because it's faster. I have plenty of time to mess around in my shop, and would prefer a nicer finish. Rob doesn't use or recommend a honing guide, he thinks that given the tiny amount of honing required, learning to do it by hand is easy enough. I'm happy with my results thus far and think things will improve.

Thanks to all for the help offered here. Still not certain which way I'll go, but I'm sure I'll get very good results.

[Jim Koepke]

I have a CBN wheel coming for my half speed Delta grinder, and am setting up the Wolverine tool rest. I want to use a granite tile and wet dry sandpaper to flatten my waterstones and hone my tools. I also bought one of the cheap Wood River honing guides which doesn't look too bad. What brand/type of sandpaper works best?

Getting back to the original question, Norton 3X was my last purchase of sandpaper a few years ago. My understanding is their Pro Sand series of sandpaper is even longer lasting.

As for using sandpaper for blade sharpening, my Veritas Mk.II Power Sharpening System (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system) uses sandpaper mounted on disks to sharpen blades and has been working for me for about two decades. Most of the time now it is used for restoring old tools that come into the shop.

My blades usually do not get to a point of needing grinding before honing.


You grind the primary bevel down to where only a very narrow secondary bevel remains, just a sliver. You then only need to hone a very small area to produce a cutting edge. As Rob explains it, only the secondary bevel contacts the wood. It's a very easy and quick process.

My experience with secondary bevels is limited. My sharpening is done freehand. If not careful a flat bevel will develop a secondary bevel or a convex bevel. The savings in time between maintaining a flat bevel or using a secondary bevel is not that great. The exception to this is with thick blades. Thick blades can have a problem with the stiction between the blade and the stone. Often a side to side motion can help when stiction develops.

When a secondary or convex bevel is noticed it can usually be corrected with a coarse stone or a quick trip to the Power Sharpening System.

jtk

[steven c newman]

When a plane iron or a chisel comes into the shop, with an edge looking like this ~ ( have seen a few, too) or so badly out of square to the edge that they would pass for a skew chisel...THEN the grinder will get used. Then the 6" disc on the side of my belt/disc sander with a 180 grit pad, and a big glass of water....until a nice, square to the sides edge appears will a single bevel, and a flat back.....Then the 2 oil stones, then a few W-or-Dry papers up to 2.5 K grit....then a plain leather strop. And that is it. I also lay those papers right down on the last oil stone used, with a dab of oil between them ( keeps the paper from moving around too much)

Expensive sandpaper? I usually buy an assortment pack, at about $6....3 times a year..if that. I do not overthink this process..I have work needs to be done....and not charging the Windmills of the Perfect Edge Clan.....

[Jon Middleton]

When a plane iron or a chisel comes into the shop, with an edge looking like this ~ ( have seen a few, too) or so badly out of square to the edge that they would pass for a skew chisel...THEN the grinder will get used. Then the 6" disc on the side of my belt/disc sander with a 180 grit pad, and a big glass of water....until a nice, square to the sides edge appears will a single bevel, and a flat back.....Then the 2 oil stones, then a few W-or-Dry papers up to 2.5 K grit....then a plain leather strop. And that is it. I also lay those papers right down on the last oil stone used, with a dab of oil between them ( keeps the paper from moving around too much)

Expensive sandpaper? I usually buy an assortment pack, at about $6....3 times a year..if that. I do not overthink this process..I have work needs to be done....and not charging the Windmills of the Perfect Edge Clan.....

Yep, it's easy to get carried away, not just in this but all hobbies. People who do this for a living take a no nonsense approach.

[Jon Middleton]

Used the Double Time lapping stone today for the first time. Works fine, not too expensive. Pretty good for waterstones.

[Charles Guest]

I have a CBN wheel coming for my half speed Delta grinder, and am setting up the Wolverine tool rest. I want to use a granite tile and wet dry sandpaper to flatten my waterstones and hone my tools. I also bought one of the cheap Wood River honing guides which doesn't look too bad. What brand/type of sandpaper works best?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvvv9K3BAA8&t=68s

Plenty more videos on sandpaper sharpening which by the way has been around as long as have abrasive papers.