PM 66 vs Saw Stop??

[Jon Middleton]

I'm the original owner of a mid 90's Powermatic 66. It also has a melamine extension table with a Jessum router lift. Works fine, but I'm wondering about selling it and going with a Saw Stop. Ideas?

[Frank Pratt]

I have a SS PCS, and chose it for it's build quality and functionality rather than the blade brake. It's just a nice bonus. In my opinion, having a good riving knife & guard are a more important safety feature than the brake. Changing out the guard & riving knife takes just a few seconds & is tooless. Fit & finish are top notch. Well, except for the extension table, which is really low rent. You'd definitely want to build a better one to support the router lift. Do not get the 'premium' fence cause it is anything but. The T-glide is the one to get.

[Jim Dwight]

I also have a SS PCS and I am pretty happy with it. The safety equipment was my primary reason to spend the most I have ever spent on a tool to get it. The safety system also adds some baggage from an operation standpoint to the extent I keep the manual in the shop for when it starts doing something goofy. But that is pretty rare, usually it operates without nonsense. My only real complaint is the riving knife. It is OK for a thin kerf blade but too thin IMHO for a regular kerf blade which is what I normally use. And they do not offer one about 0.1 inch thick like I think is appropriate. As a result, I have had the saw overload when the board pinched the blade I was cutting. A wedge in the kerf solved it but it never would have happened with a thicker riving knife.

There are many great things. Squaring the top to the blade isn't bad. The rip fence is great (Bisemeyer type, the aluminum did not impress). The height adjustment is quick. The angle requires many rotations of the wheel. Stops are adjustable. Miter slots are correctly machined.

I've never used a 66 so I don't really know how they compare. My guess is the blade brake system if the only big advantage of the SS.

[Jake Hillestad]

Here we go: You don't mention what SS model you're looking at so I'll assume PCS or ICS. Unless you feel you must have the brake you will gain 0 in terms of quality or capability. IMHO, money pi$$ed down the drain.

This coming from someone who used and maintained 2 ICS and 1 PCS simultaneously for the better part of a decade. Multiple brake misfires on the ICS's, replaced both ICS switches (one at 4 years and one at 9), PCS had excessive arbor runout, non existent dust collection capability on all, PCS trunnion issues, false door interlock codes, just to name a few problems. The extension table is also a joke for the money. The riving knife is a nice feature and quick to switch out, I will give them that.

[Mike Henderson]

The brake can save your fingers. Otherwise, I assume they're fairly similar.

I'm attached to my fingers so I bought a SS (so they'll stay that way:)).

Mike

[Andy D Jones]

For reference, I own an early 90's 3 HP Unisaw that I bought new, with 52" Unifence.

I wouldn't dream of wasting the $$$$ necessary for me to switch to a SS.

Too many other things for which I'd much rather spend $$

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Larry Frank]

Here we go again. Those who hate the SawStop and those that like it. I have heard and read ALL the arguments too many times.

I have a PCS and like it. It is a solid well built saw.

[Myles Moran]

Here we go again. Those who hate the SawStop and those that like it. I have heard and read ALL the arguments too many times.

I have a PCS and like it. It is a solid well built saw.

Yea, you nailed it. People either love it, can't afford it, or think they're immune to a mistake costing them a finger. My PCS is amazing, wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Robert Chapman]

I have a SS PCS and I love it. It is a very high quality saw with an excellent safety feature. I am also a pretty mature guy [79+years] and I want to keep all my current digets.

[Jim Becker]

I would need a very compelling reason to exchange what are essentially the same level of tool (assuming you mean the higher end SS vs the PM66) They are both great saws and the only real differentiator is the safety device on the SS. If that's important to you...go for it. Just keep in mind about what the realistic price will be for selling your PM66. Even if it's pristine...it's still a used saw.

[Steve Mathews]

As one to never refuse a suggestion from my wife to buy a new tool I jumped at the opportunity and purchased a SawStop ICS with a 5hp single phase motor. After about a year of ownership I find it doesn't cut wood any better than my previous Unisaw or Jet cabinet saws. However I think the ICS version is a bit more stout. I haven't experienced any false trips or problems with the saw and it has served me well. SawStop customer service has been good albeit lacking some technical knowledge about their product at times. If it has given my wife some piece of mind and has potentially saved a few of my digits I think it was money well spent. Now if my wife would see a new John Deere tractor in a similar light.

[Jon Middleton]

I would need a very compelling reason to exchange what are essentially the same level of tool (assuming you mean the higher end SS vs the PM66) They are both great saws and the only real differentiator is the safety device on the SS. If that's important to you...go for it. Just keep in mind about what the realistic price will be for selling your PM66. Even if it's pristine...it's still a used saw.

Yep, I realize it's not worth what I paid for it. I figure $1000-$1200. Maybe a bit more with the router lift.

[David Kumm]

The ICS will be a little heavier build than the PM and the PCS a little less. Buy for the safety, not the build. I use a feeder on my old Whitney so my fingers stay clear. Dave430028

[johnny means]

If I could buy an insurance policy that would replace any digits lost on a table saw for a couple of grand, it would be a no brainer for me. I push wood through saws daily for a living, so my calculated risk and my exposure are high. That's how I made the calculation to go with a SawStop. I can't see any other real advantage.

[Mike Henderson]

If I could buy an insurance policy that would replace any digits lost on a table saw for a couple of grand, it would be a no brainer for me. I push wood through saws daily for a living, so my calculated risk and my exposure are high. That's how I made the calculation to go with a SawStop. I can't see any other real advantage.

Yeah, if you have employees you pretty much have to have a SawStop. I can see the attorney questioning a shop owner in a trial: "You mean to say that you were aware of a product that would have saved my client's fingers and you were too cheap to provide it for your employees?"

I also expect insurance companies may charge higher premiums or refuse coverage unless you provide flesh detection technology on your table saws.

Mike

[John Goodin]

This is one question that only you can really answer. At it’s core I think it is a combination of your financial means and willingness to spend money to reduce risk and increase your comfort level while in the shop. For some it is wasted money, for others it is money well spent. Of course there are also the people who would buy a Sawstop but can’t squeeze it into their budget.

[Carroll Courtney]

This is one question that only you can really answer. At it’s core I think it is a combination of your financial means and willingness to spend money to reduce risk and increase your comfort level while in the shop. For some it is wasted money, for others it is money well spent. Of course there are also the people who would buy a Sawstop but can’t squeeze it into their budget.
Well said,but I'll keep my PM66. I know a guy who cut two fingers off while using a BS, and I know another guy who took off 3 fingers while using his TS which his fingers never come in contact with blade(kickback)

[Patrick Walsh]

I have a very old SSICS. It was one of the first machines I purchased when I was building a shop. Yet to have logged mucho hours behind a table saw I was convinced the safety feature was a must. Now with many many hours spent behind a table saw day in and day out for years I don’t feel as strong about this. As Johnny suggested based of volume of exposure maybe I should be more concerned and see the added value. So that’s my two cents on the safety features. Point being if you spend lots of hours behind a saw you get comfortable much more so than with i intermitent use. But then sheer exposure so you can argue either way. Either way the finger eater feature can’t be seen as a bad thing except cartridges. I have set one off by mistake and if you don’t have one durning say a pandemic and need it well. Well you got bigger problems right so still not a problem.

Quality machine to machine I see it as a draw. The sawstop is nice but not so much nicer than a 66 that I see the SS as much different. However the big hang up for me is te unisaw and it’s miserable dust collection and complete lack of any designed into the machine. Table saws create so much dust and I get so tired of climbing under the 66 weekly to clean out the base stacked full. The SS on the other hand with a good dust collector collects like a dream and I have never once had to vacuum out my base. That alone makes it worth it to me.

The worm gear on the 66’s are also always crap and really hard to turn. The handles also like to snap off. My sawstop is kinda hard to turn but not like break something hard like the 66. I have cleaned both and it helps but does not resolve the issues. The 66 due to lack of dust collection I think adds to it being so miserable.

I will add that both saws I see generally as little pos by comparison to say a Northfeild tablesaw. But that’s a whole nother conversation and generally the SS and the 66 meet the desires/requirements/needs of most wanting a tablesaw.

Get what you want I say. You gut should tell you...

Personally I wouldn’t ever buy a 66 or any powermatic based on the dust collection alone. But if I had one I might not be inclined to replace it?

[David Utterback]

Just made this switch myself last fall when I found an incredible deal on a pristine PCS less than 2 y/o. Drove over 1000 miles to get it back home and have absolutely no regrets. My 66 was a mid-90's model which I sold via CL to a young man who had operated one for years in a commercial shop. IIRC, the price was $1300.

The SS is stout and smooth. While I take comfort in the safety, the dust collection is much better than the Sharkguard on the 66. Adjustments are also smoother although the 66 could have been cleaned up a bit. I plan to try the dado set up soon so will need to change out the brake system. Supposed to be a piece of cake.

[Bradley Gray]

I am happy with my 66. I would buy a feeder before I switched saws - safety and improved cut quality. Plus, I think the 66 will out live a high tech control system.

[Dave Sabo]

The worm gear on the 66’s are also always crap and really hard to turn. The handles also like to snap off.

This simply isn't universal.

While, you may have experienced this on yours the version I owned was smooth as silk. I also did a job in which the "jobsite" saw was a late 80's PM66. It was old when it arrived, was used by everyone and not babied at all. It's adjustments worked smoothly and the handles never even thought about breaking.

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm I have only used three I three separate shops on the regular and all three would for you a shoulder injury. I tried to resolve all three and as said it helped but did not fix them and wot back to bad in days.

But these were shop machines used for a lifetime by employees and probably as such negrlected. I don’t doubt they can work well. A worm gear is a pretty simple thing if it’s clean it should work..


This simply isn't universal.

While, you may have experienced this on yours the version I owned was smooth as silk. I also did a job in which the "jobsite" saw was a late 80's PM66. It was old when it arrived, was used by everyone and not babied at all. It's adjustments worked smoothly and the handles never even thought about breaking.

[Jack Frederick]

When building the shop I was talking with my daughter and she was interested in making a few things. I had a '48 Unisaw which I had gone through and loved. She arrived one day with a PCS for the new shop. I accepted;) and I have been very pleased with the saw. I like the ergonomics of the pcs compared tho the Uni and have found the dust collection to be much better than what I had rigged up. A major factor in preferring the SS is that I can never be sure that no one else will get in there. My Grands are 3, 6 & 8. I don't care how well you watch them they can squirt around. So peace of mind for me and reduced liability make the SS a good choice. The SS has added cost when you figure cartridge and blade replacement. I have had two. One the first day and I still have no idea why it went off. SS provided a one time free replacement, but it also ate the blade. The second, I was ripping a piece of fir. looked it over said all good. Apparently the last foot of that board had gotten wet and I didn't pick it up. Cartridge and blade +/-$200. I gave the Uni to a friend in need and I miss it. The 66 is a great saw as well. Do you have kids/grandkids others around the shop?

[Jon Middleton]

When building the shop I was talking with my daughter and she was interested in making a few things. I had a '48 Unisaw which I had gone through and loved. She arrived one day with a PCS for the new shop. I accepted;) and I have been very pleased with the saw. I like the ergonomics of the pcs compared tho the Uni and have found the dust collection to be much better than what I had rigged up. A major factor in preferring the SS is that I can never be sure that no one else will get in there. My Grands are 3, 6 & 8. I don't care how well you watch them they can squirt around. So peace of mind for me and reduced liability make the SS a good choice. The SS has added cost when you figure cartridge and blade replacement. I have had two. One the first day and I still have no idea why it went off. SS provided a one time free replacement, but it also ate the blade. The second, I was ripping a piece of fir. looked it over said all good. Apparently the last foot of that board had gotten wet and I didn't pick it up. Cartridge and blade +/-$200. I gave the Uni to a friend in need and I miss it. The 66 is a great saw as well. Do you have kids/grandkids others around the shop?

I'm pretty much the only one in the shop. I'm looking for a smoother saw, a bit higher quality if you will. The safety aspect would be nice, too. Both Howard Ng and Rob Cosman talk the SS up.

[Andrew Seemann]

A lot may depend on your individual situation. If you just run sheet materials through it and your fingers are never with a foot of the blade and you have a blade guard and some kind of splitter, it probably isn't as big of a safety upgrade. If you make lots of small parts and narrow rips and find your fingers are frequently near the blade, it probably is a bigger safety improvement.

My personal situation is that as soon as I have that kind of spare cash around I will likely get one. I find that I make lots of parts at a size that I can't use the Biesemeyer overarm guard on the saw. I also find, much to my constant annoyance, that as I get older, I seem to be getting slightly clumsier. I know my reaction time has slowed and my attention span isn't what it used to be. The combination of needing to frequently work near the blade and aging (and someday having more money when the kids move out:) ) just makes the increased safety a no brainer. I'm one of those never-had-an-accident-with-a-tablesaw people (other than kickback from being stupid when I was 17) and know how to use them safely, etc, but I don't want to rely on that forever. Kind of like seat belts. For all the years I have worn them, I have only needed them once (again when I was 17 and stupid) but that one time, they saved my life.

[Joe Jensen]

I've owned 4 machines over 35 years. I owned a 1970s Era 3HP Unisaw with a Biesmeyer fence from 1984 until 1990. In 1990 I upgraded (an upgrade in my mind) to a new PM66. I loved that saw and never planned to change. In around 2005 my wife saw a demo of a Sawstop ICS and she insisted I get one. WOW, IMHO the Sawstop ICS was in a completely different tier than the PM66 and Unisaw. Larger cast iron table, Full adjustability to tune the saw for blade heal, etc. Heavier build, just a much better machine IMHO. In 2009 I changed to a Felder slider and I too is in another tier.

[Stewart Lang]

If SawStop made a European style slider, I'd be interested. But they don't. No way I'd ever give up my slider to go to back a regular table saw. It's just a steel box with a blade sticking up in the middle imo.

[Joe Jensen]

On safety, the Unisaw had no guard of any kind and no riving knife. I grew up with a 1940s sears craftsman with no guard so I was fine. The PM66 came with a guard and I installed it and removed it within an hour as it was terrible. The Sawstop came with a riving knife and guard that mounted to the riving knife and it trained me to use the guard. Once moving the Felder slider I always use a guard unless not cutting through the material all the way. Oddly the Sawstop trained me to use guards. Knowing what I know now I would have to have a riving knife with a guard on it on a traditional cabinet saw. Maybe an overhead guard but I am no longer comfortable using a saw with a guard.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Jon, about 20 years ago i purchased a new PM66 as my first table saw. I learned about kickback and the importance of a riving knife - added a micro jig splitter - on that saw. Agree with Patrick Walsh re the hand wheels needing frequent cleaning and lubing - otherwise frequent trips to the gym to build shoulder muscles. Put a Jess Em router lift in the side table and eventually sold it, very clean, for $1200 on CL. Sale of the PM was result of an Impromptu stop at a WW event in Pasadena as we were on way to visit in-laws (read= wife with me) and Jesse from Eagle Tools (great guy in every regard) was demonstrating a SS with the hot dog. My wife saw it work, looked at me and said “you are buying one of those”.

I got the 3hp ICS and have no regrets. I much prefer it to the PM. Hand wheels still smooth as silk after approx 7 years. Riving knife is nicely designed. Dust collection is MUCH better than the PM but not quite as good as it easily could be. Main surprise, to me, is that the rear dust port is only 4” whereas i can’t imagine why they didn’t do 5 or 6 , perhaps with a neck down adaptor for a 4”. This is especially so in a saw where they are touting its dust handling aspects. The only other thing was that i added a HTC roller out feed table and the base of the angled and collapsible arm mounts just above the port but i was able to plumb around it - this is more of a issue specific to me, as i was reusing the HTC that i had on the PM.

Very happy with the ICS. Bought the PM on reputation and the BUY USA ethos. Would not go back. The ICS is well engineered and well manufactured; location not really relevant to my decision process. The wife no longer worries about me out in the shop - that alone is worth price of admission.
Since you are asking the question, buy the ICS. If not, move up to a euro slider rather than any cabinet saw.

Only other thought is that if i were to do it again i might not get the 52 extension table. Had it on the PM too, but same problem with my (no need to characterize as “bad”) habit of making sure every horizontal surface in office or in shop is “utilized”. Those more judgmental than I would suggest i spread out my crap to accommodate the space available. The less kind would suggest i have hoarding tendencies and crap everywhere. Me: i have a visual memory and it helps to see my stuff . . . . The point: the side table becomes a storage location. Just a thought. Good luck and enjoy. Patrick

[Erik Loza]

If SawStop made a European style slider, I'd be interested. But they don't. No way I'd ever give up my slider to go to back a regular table saw. It's just a steel box with a blade sticking up in the middle imo.

We make one. Doesn't destroy the blade and you can reset it in seconds. Nothing else like it. You'll need about $50K.

Erik

[Stewart Lang]

We make one. Doesn't destroy the blade and you can reset it in seconds. Nothing else like it. You'll need about $50K.

Erik

I know you do ;) Super nice machine! I should clarify, "if there was a european slider under 10-15k with that safety feature" lol.

[Erik Loza]

I know you do ;) Super nice machine! I should clarify, "if there was a european slider under 10-15k with that safety feature" lol.


I hear ya' man... :D:D:D;)

[Jim Becker]

Erik, I'm curious if you think that the feature Felder has designed (which is quite different in sensing methodology from that other thing...) will begin to filter down to the more affordable machines in some reasonable time period?