Covid, why wash your hands?

[Benjimin Young]

This forum contains a lot of smart people, many of whom, ( I am guessing here), like to understand why something works. So here is an article that apparently came for Johns Hopkins University but I cannot confirm that. In any case, it takes an interested look at Covid 19 from a chemistry perspective and some of it makes sense, at least to me.
There is lots of Dawn dish soap still on the shelf, (that is the dish soap ads they show cleaning crude oil of ducklings), that should cut through the "outer layer of fat" dont you think?

A virus is not a living organism, but only a molecule of protein (DNA) covered by a protective layer of lipids (fats), that upon being absorbed by ocular, nasal and mouth mucosa cells changes the genetic code of the cells and converts them into aggressor and multiplier cells. •

Since the virus is not a living organism but rather a molecule of protein, it doesn’t die but rather disintegrates on its own. The length of time it takes to disintegrate depends on temperature, humidity and the type of material where is sits. •

The virus is very fragile, the only thing that protects it is a thin external layer of fat. That’s why any soap or detergent is the best remedy because suds break down grease/fats (that’s why you have to suds up for 20 seconds or more in order to make a lot of suds).

Once the layer of fat is dissolved, the molecule of protein falls apart and disintegrates on its own. •
HEAT melts grease, that is why it is best to use water that is at least 25 degrees centigrade (you can do your math here or just use pretty warm water) to wash your hands, clothes, etc. Besides, hot water makes more suds and that is good. •

Alcohol or any mixture of alcohol at more than 65% will dissolve any grease/fats, especially the outer fat layer of the virus. • Any mixture of 1-part Clorox and 5 parts water dissolves the protein directly, which kills it from the inside. •

Oxidized water can be used besides soap, alcohol, and Clorox because peroxide dissolves the protein of the virus, but you have to use it alone and it damages the skin. •
.NO BACTERIACIDE WORKS. Since the virus is not a living organism, you can’t kill anything that is not alive with antibiotics, except to rapidly disintegrate its structure with everything mentioned above. •

NEVER shake clothes you have worn (or not worn) nor sheets (bedding) or anything made of cloth. As long as it is stuck to a porous surface, it is inert and will disintegrate in 3 hours (cloth and porous surfaces)

- 4 hours (copper which is naturally antiseptic and wood because it pulls away all of the humidity and it stays stuck and disintegrates),
- 24 hours (cardboard),
- 42 hours (metal) and 72 hours (plastic).

Don’t dust or use a duster as the molecules of the virus will float in the air for up to 3 hours and can lodge in the nose. •

The molecules of the virus are very stable in outdoor cold, air conditioning in houses and cars. It needs humidity to be stable and also darkness. Therefore, in environments that are dehumidified, dry, and with a lot of light will disintegrate it more rapidly. •

ULTRAVIOLET LIGHT on any object where it can land will disintegrate the protein of the virus.

For example, it is perfect to disinfect and be able to reuse a mask. Careful as it also disintegrates the protein in the skin (collagen) and can cause big wrinkles and skin cancer. •

No virus can go through healthy skin. •

Vinegar does not work because it doesn’t dissolve the protective layer of grease. • NO FIREWATER OR VODKA works. The strongest vodka is 40% alcohol and you need at least 65%. •

LISTERINE DOES WORK! It is 65% alcohol. •As does gargling with Hydrogen Peroxide!

The more confined space the virus is in, the more concentrated it becomes. Open-air and natural ventilation are the best. •

It is imperative to wash your hands before and after touching mucous areas, food, knobs, light switches, remote controls, cell phones, watches, computers, desks, TVs, etc. And when after using the toilet. •

You need to use lotion on your dry hands, because the molecules can hide in tiny cracks. The thicker the cream, the better. Also, keep your fingernails short! so the virus can’t hide in there either.

[roger wiegand]

A great deal of bogosity in this, but some kernels of truth as well. I don't have the energy to go through point by point. Start with the fact that corona viruses are RNA viruses not DNA viruses and go on from there. Washing your hands with soap and water is the single most effective things you can do. Dawn is a great detergent, and will be highly effective.

[Edwin Santos]

A great deal of bogosity in this, but some kernels of truth as well. I don't have the energy to go through point by point. Start with the fact that corona viruses are RNA viruses not DNA viruses and go on from there. Washing your hands with soap and water is the single most effective things you can do. Dawn is a great detergent, and will be highly effective.

I didn't know bogosity was a word. Your post got me to look it up, and now I know it is, and believe me, I'll be using it a lot. Props to you sir.

Apparently bogometer is a word also, defined as "a notional instrument for measuring bogosity". So it seems that some aspects of the quoted article contained sufficient bogosity to trip your bogometer.

BTW, I felt much of the article was good info, at least for this layperson. But being that I'm a layperson, my opinion could be bogus.
Edwin

[Frank Pratt]

Roger & Edwin, good responses. There is way too much misinformation & disinformation floating about. Being careful & selective about which sources to pay attention to is important. When I read an article that has more than a couple of minor factual errors, I just stop & disregard the entire thing.

[John Lanciani]

Listerine is about 22% alcohol for flavored versions, 27% for original.

[John Makar]

Bummer about Vodka not working.

[Bill Dufour]

Alcohol above 85% will not bother the virus if it is like other viruses. The high concentration alcohol will cause it to go into a defense mode and it can "live" in pure alcohol for several years. Around 65% alcohol it does not activate the defenses and it dies. It can "live' in a freezer for two years or more. No idea about refridgerator temperatures and survivability.
Bill D.

[Jason Roehl]

One of my issues with this article is...

25°C (77°F) water supposedly helps melt the virus' fat layer. How would it not then melt in the body, which is 37°C (98.6°F)?

[Doug Dawson]

One of my issues with this article is...

25°C (77°F) water supposedly helps melt the virus' fat layer. How would it not then melt in the body, which is 37°C (98.6°F)?

In conjunction with soap/detergent, and lathering.

That's why we shouldn't do drugs. :^)

[Michael Weber]

I had to google about the alcohol content of listenine and it seems it's about 27 percent. The rest of the post seems logical with reasonable and effective precautions. Thanks for posting it.

[John K Jordan]

This forum contains a lot of smart people, many of whom, ( I am guessing here), like to understand why something works. So here is an article that apparently came for Johns Hopkins University but I cannot confirm that.

Benjamin, the article was labeled by Snopes as "misappropriated":

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/johns-hopkins-covid-summary/

The recommended Johns Hopkins sites:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/coronavirus/

JKJ

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I look at the washing hands from a more practical physical point.

Provided I don't have nicks, cuts, wounds on my hands, if I come in contact with a virus carrying glob of moisture say on a grocery cart handle while grocery shopping for example, the most likely way of me being infected by that speck of virus is from contacting my eyes, mouth or nose. If the speck of virus survives the trip home and is still on my hands when I get into the house, carefully, thoroughly washing my hands should remove it and wash it down the drain removing it's presence and danger. The key is in the thorough washing technique to remove it.

If you touch your face, wipe eyes, pick your nose, wipe your mouth, you take chance on placing that same speck of virus onto a wet more direct entry into your body.

Wearing a mask around others is as much about you, should you be infected and contagious, not spreading the virus should you cough or sneeze as it is about preventing you from catching the virus should an infected, contagious person cough or sneeze in your presence.

[Bill Dufour]

One of my issues with this article is...

25°C (77°F) water supposedly helps melt the virus' fat layer. How would it not then melt in the body, which is 37°C (98.6°F)?

The way it works is that as soon as the virus gets into the wet body tissue the outer layer breaks down and the RNA strand is free to move into a likely looking cell and take over from the existing DNA. Just like a bird hatching as soon as it starts to hatch the eggshell is just in the way.
Bil lD

[Jan Smith]

I didn't know bogosity was a word. Your post got me to look it up, and now I know it is, and believe me, I'll be using it a lot. Props to you sir.

Apparently bogometer is a word also, defined as "a notional instrument for measuring bogosity". So it seems that some aspects of the quoted article contained sufficient bogosity to trip your bogometer.

BTW, I felt much of the article was good info, at least for this layperson. But being that I'm a layperson, my opinion could be bogus.
Edwin

That might be a new favorite word of mine too and it gave me already a much needed smile.

Thank you Roger.

[Benjimin Young]

Benjamin, the article was labeled by Snopes as "misappropriated":

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/johns-hopkins-covid-summary/

The recommended Johns Hopkins sites:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/coronavirus/

JKJ

interesting Snopes site John, thanks.

[Benjimin Young]

Apologies, it seems I may have offended a few and this was not the intent. :o
I respect this forum and the opinions of many of the people in the forum. There was no intent to mis-lead, hence my disclaimer at he beginning of the post, "but I cannot confirm that". There was however an intent to stimulate thought and get your input to my comment that "some of it makes sense, at least to me".
Thanks to John for the Snopes site, an interesting site, thanks to Roger, I had to look up bogosity in my Funk and Wagnels, and thanks to all for reading and providing input.
Stay safe, healthy and sane in these difficult times.

[Steve Demuth]

The way it works is that as soon as the virus gets into the wet body tissue the outer layer breaks down and the RNA strand is free to move into a likely looking cell and take over from the existing DNA. Just like a bird hatching as soon as it starts to hatch the eggshell is just in the way.
Bil lD

No, that is not how it works. The virus cannot infect a cell just by dissolving and loosing RNA into the extracellular environment. An intact virus particle binds to an antigen on a cell surface, which breaks the cell membrane and the viral coat, allowing the two to merge, and the internal contents of the virion - the RNA - is thus transported into the cell. The RNA is then translated by the cells mitochondria into a factory for producing more viral RNA and proteins.

So, you need intact viral particles, not loose RNA to start an infection. What makes SARS-CoV2 so easy to spread is that it has evolved a very effective binding protein for antigens expressed by human lung cells.

[Wade Lippman]

One of my issues with this article is...

25°C (77°F) water supposedly helps melt the virus' fat layer. How would it not then melt in the body, which is 37°C (98.6°F)?

There are all different kinds of fat. Only difference between a fat and an oil is whether or not it is solid at room temperature. But in the context of viruses, that is not necessarily meaningful.

[Wade Lippman]

Alcohol above 85% will not bother the virus if it is like other viruses. The high concentration alcohol will cause it to go into a defense mode and it can "live" in pure alcohol for several years. Around 65% alcohol it does not activate the defenses and it dies. It can "live' in a freezer for two years or more. No idea about refridgerator temperatures and survivability.
Bill D.

Can you document that? It is hard to believe that a virus has a defense mode. It does nothing except inject RNA. Otherwise it is inert.

[Wade Lippman]

As long as it is stuck to a porous surface, it is inert and will disintegrate in 3 hours (cloth and porous surfaces)


I just read that a mask will have identifiable viruses for up to 7 days if not disinfected. I have doubts about that, but also about 3 hours.
I am rotating 3 masks, leaving each to age for maybe 5 days, as I don't use one daily. I am hoping that will work out.

[Brice Rogers]

There are a lot of hand sanitizers out there that are 60% alcohol. I once googled, why don't we use higher percentage alcohols? It said that it dries to quickly and that the lower alcohol content stayed around longer and was more effective than say 70, 80 or 90% alcohol.

But my suspicion is that 65% alcohol and 60% alcohol aren't really much different. I can't imagine that there is anything magical with that 5% difference. But perhaps one works just a little bit better or a little faster.

BTW, if you can buy Ever Clear alcohol (three common concentrations: 120 proof, 151 proof and 191 proof), it is actually a vodka. Some states outlaw it. Some states restrict it ( 191 proof is not available in Ca.) . In some states you can get the full strength 191 proof (about 95% ethanol alcohol). But I'm starting to see more availability at not-outrageous prices for isopropyl alcohol on ebay.

[Bohdan Drozdowskyj]

Can you document that? It is hard to believe that a virus has a defense mode. It does nothing except inject RNA. Otherwise it is inert.

The wet alcohol enters the virus and causes the insides to harden and slowly disintegrate. If you hit it with pure alcohol the outer later is instantly hardened and this prevents the entry of more alcohol into the virus protecting it and it remains viable.

Got this from some scientific report but I can't remember which.

[Frank Pratt]

Alcohol above 85% will not bother the virus if it is like other viruses. The high concentration alcohol will cause it to go into a defense mode and it can "live" in pure alcohol for several years.Bill D.

????? That doesn't sound right at all. References for this? I'm not saying it's wrong, but it certainly doesn't pass the smell test.

People, please let's not be posting stuff that isn't factual. There's been plenty of that just in this thread.

[Wade Lippman]

The wet alcohol enters the virus and causes the insides to harden and slowly disintegrate. If you hit it with pure alcohol the outer later is instantly hardened and this prevents the entry of more alcohol into the virus protecting it and it remains viable.

Got this from some scientific report but I can't remember which.

Solutions of 70% alcohol should be left on surfaces for 30 seconds (including cellphones) to ensure they will kill viruses. Pure (100%) alcohol evaporates too quickly for such use. From WebMD

Soap contains fat-like substances known as amphiphiles, some of which are structurally very similar to the lipids in the virus membrane. The soap molecules “compete” with the lipids in the virus membrane. This is more or less how soap also removes normal dirt from the skin.
The soap not only loosens the “glue” between the virus and the skin but also the Velcro-like interactions that hold the proteins, lipids and RNA in the virus together.
Alcohol-based products, which pretty much includes all “disinfectant” products, contain a high-percentage alcohol solution (typically 60-80% ethanol) and kill viruses in a similar fashion From the CDC

Nowhere does it say that 100% alcohol doesn't work; only that it evaporates too rapidly to be practical. So I think it is fair to say that your scientific report is questionable.

[John K Jordan]

...if I come in contact with a virus carrying glob of moisture say on a grocery cart handle while grocery shopping for example, the most likely way of me being infected by that speck of virus is from contacting my eyes, mouth or nose. If the speck of virus survives the trip home and is still on my hands when I get into the house, carefully, thoroughly washing my hands should remove it and wash it down the drain removing it's presence and danger. The key is in the thorough washing technique to remove it.
...

Call me paranoid, but after leaving the store I'm always concerned about what I might touch before I get to the hand-washing - the credit card, the car door handle, the button to open the hatchback, the keys and doorknobs at the house. I put the credit card in my shirt pocket before going into the store to avoid touching my wallet. Our vehicles and house are keyless entry. I carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer in my back pocket anytime I'm out and use it often. Then the hand washing with soap at home.

I didn't read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned, but I find the mask and gloves are a good reminder that stops me from otherwise touching my face without thinking.

JKJ

[carey mitchell]

The best info I have come across about alcohol is that <60% is ineffective in dissolving the fatty layer, and any that is much >70% causes the layer to harden.

When washing hands in the shop I use Simple Green, which really does a good job on oily materials. The wife would probably frown upon it upstairs.

I've never heard peroxide called "oxidized water," but I suppose it would be true. That term, however, is confusing to most. There are a number of other points in the article that are not exactly correct; that's the problem with anecdotal info.

[Myk Rian]

The reason Dawn is suggested: it's a grease cutter. The Covid-19 virus is a Protein. Not a living organism. It is protected by a layer of fat. Dawn washes the fat from it, the Protein shrivels away.

[Ronald Blue]

[QUOTE=carey mitchell;3010506]The best info I have come across about alcohol is that <60% is ineffective in dissolving the fatty layer, and any that is much >70% causes the layer to harden.

When washing hands in the shop I use Simple Green, which really does a good job on oily materials. The wife would probably frown upon it upstairs.


The CDC says use at least 60% alcohol content hand sanitizer. Nowhere does it say if it's stronger it doesn't work. Do you have documented facts to prove your assertion that 70% has the opposite effect? Use hand sanitizer if hand washing isn't an option. There is nothing other than using soap along with water stated in their recommendations. They state there is no documented advantage to using antibacterial soap. Just use soap and water for a minimum of 20 seconds. Soap because it helps break down dirt and oils and water because it washes the dislodged particles away.

[Gustav Gabor]

I wonder if lacquer thinner would possibly be effective against this virus?
Seems to kill everything else, but probably not Covid 19.
Since I can't find hand sanitizer anywhere, and I happen to have over 100 liters of lacquer thinner in the spray booth, it'd be awesome if it could work!!

[Frank Pratt]

I wonder if lacquer thinner would possibly be effective against this virus?
Seems to kill everything else, but probably not Covid 19.
Since I can't find hand sanitizer anywhere, and I happen to have over 100 liters of lacquer thinner in the spray booth, it'd be awesome if it could work!!

Kinda hard on the skin though.

[Robert Engel]

The virus has been shown to be spread primarily through surface contact/entry through mouth, nose, eyes. IOW contaminated hands touching the face.

The virus is not that hardy, so even simply washing the hands will work.

Aerosol droplets not a primary method of spread. Face masks probably to more good making people aware how often the subconsciously tough their face!

I suspect grocery stores are a major point of spread. People handling items, etc.

Unless cashiers change gloves between every customer, they may be contributing to the spread!!

In the end, I am not sure we will ever know how much effect "social distancing" has had, as opposed to sanitizing surfaces such as door handles, shopping carts, etc.

[Jon Nuckles]

The virus has been shown to be spread primarily through surface contact/entry through mouth, nose, eyes. IOW contaminated hands touching the face.

The virus is not that hardy, so even simply washing the hands will work.

Aerosol droplets not a primary method of spread. Face masks probably to more good making people aware how often the subconsciously tough their face!

I suspect grocery stores are a major point of spread. People handling items, etc.

Unless cashiers change gloves between every customer, they may be contributing to the spread!!

In the end, I am not sure we will ever know how much effect "social distancing" has had, as opposed to sanitizing surfaces such as door handles, shopping carts, etc.

The following quote is from an NPR online article on why you don't need to disinfect your groceries:

"Know the dangers — focus on the people, not the food

Many people worry about the possibility of picking up the coronavirus from things like grocery store conveyor belts or cereal boxes. But every expert NPR spoke with agrees that the biggest risk when it comes to groceries is being inside the store itself with other people who may be infected.


"While it is possible to contract the virus [from contaminated surfaces], the majority of transmission is probably going to be from respiratory droplets, which you're exposed to when you're around other people," says Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at the Center for Infection and Immunity at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health."

[John K Jordan]

...the majority of transmission is probably going to be from respiratory droplets,...

I read that article and the "probably" is the part that negates the entire argument for me. Playing the odds may be OK with bank account but not with my compromised lungs!

A few years after this is all over I'd like to be around to read what the researchers actually found.

JKJ

[Tom M King]

We're not playing any guessing games here either. We stocked up a little over a month ago, and are good to go for a while yet, without having to go into a store. I have more work to do here, by myself, than I will ever get done anyway. We're both working longer hours, not watching a clock, than we did when we each had hired helpers, and I'm getting kind of used to it.

[Jon Nuckles]

I read that article and the "probably" is the part that negates the entire argument for me. Playing the odds may be OK with bank account but not with my compromised lungs!

A few years after this is all over I'd like to be around to read what the researchers actually found.

JKJ

John,
I have my decontamination table set up on my screen porch and nothing comes in the house until it has been disinfected and, if possible, left untouched for a few days. I posted the NPR article only to counter Robert's belief that aerosol droplets are not a primary cause of the spread of Covid-19. I will be 60 this year and have been woodworking since my 20's; I'm not taking any chances with my lungs either.
Jon

[Mel Fulks]

The elbow bump has been suggested as a safe replacement for hand shakes. That would be just a little more dignified
than "pants drop mooning". George Washington had a better way, he did not do hand shakes. He just used a brief
formal ,not overly deep , bow.

[Jason Roehl]

The elbow bump has been suggested as a safe replacement for hand shakes. That would be just a little more dignified
than "pants drop mooning". George Washington had a better way, he did not do hand shakes. He just used a brief
formal ,not overly deep , bow.

No thanks. We're supposed be coughing and sneezing into our elbows (NOT our hands or free air). Why would we then want to bump them with others?