Springs for the Moxon

[Derek Cohen]

Rather than sidetracking Chris' Moxon thread, I will respond to Tom's comment about springs for a Moxon here.


Tom wrote: Since the wood you used is thick I would suggest you get some springs from the hardware store and put the springs in between the jaws. The threaded rod should go through the hole in the spring. Spring (s) can be cut with a dremel tool if need be. If springs are cut I would recommend washers at the end of the springs to keep the spring ends from cutting into the wood.

The springs make the whole vise easier to work with.


Tom is referring to the springs first described (as far as I am aware) by David Barron a few years ago. I discovered this video some months back, and posted my version of the springs. I have not seen any else mention using springs. As Tom notes, they are really useful. This may be seen in my recent video on lipped dovetailed drawers (they performed transparently for me now, but it was brought to my attention that they were working well).

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk0pFLmS9Tk

This is David Barrons version ...

https://i.postimg.cc/2yPFkDkg/Moxon-spring1.jpg

Note that David uses common "parallel" springs, that is, the sides of the springs are parallel.

Here's my chop with the springs I used ...

https://i.postimg.cc/dVcmgwSy/Moxon-spring4.jpg

Note that they are triangular ...

https://i.postimg.cc/VsTFBjq4/Moxon-spring5.jpg

David needed to drill a recess for his springs to fold into in order to close up his chop. With the triangular springs, they fold into themselves, and there is no difficulty closing the chop ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RVHLPNGm/Moxon-spring2.jpg

What is the benefit? Well, as soon as you loosen a wheel, the chop opens up automatically. It also maintains the tension, that is, stays open, rather than flops about, as other chops tend to do. This makes it mush easier to open one side to the width of the board (to be dovetailed), and then use the other side to lock or unlock the chop ...

https://i.postimg.cc/LsHk6vS4/Moxon-spring6.jpg


Where did I get these springs? I found them in my workshop! A lightbulb went off, and the rest is history, as they say.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Bulatowicz]

McMaster Carr carries the same kind of springs as Detek used (and many more): https://www.mcmaster.com/springs/spring-type~compression/confined-space-conical-compression-springs/

[Hilton Ralphs]

McMaster Carr carries the same kind of springs as Detek used (and many more): https://www.mcmaster.com/springs/spring-type~compression/confined-space-conical-compression-springs/


Thanks Michael and Derek.

[Tom Bussey]

Derek,

What is the free length of your springs and what is the spring at solid?

Die springs are sized by the hole size that they will drop into. And it looks as though this holds true with light springs also. The rod or hole diameter is important because it determines what size stripper bolt or spring retainer will fit inside. In case of light springs it will be outside diameter minus 2 wire sizes. So if one has a 3/4 shaft a I inch OD spring is needed.

Spring life is determined by the amount of, in this case, spring compression and the life decreases dramatically as it nears solid. Also a spring should have at least 1/8 inch preload to be effective. I am guessing that a lighter spring would require more preload.

So the working space between the two jaws come into play because if the working ares is 2 inches, a longer spring is needed than if clamping a 1/2 or under thick piece of material. In other words a 15/16 dia. spring will fit in a 1 Inch hole and the depth of the holes is determined by if the spring is 2 inches long than the combining depth should be 1 7/8ths but I would put more preload on the springs because it is easier to drill the hole s deeper than to shim the holes to get more preload. If cutting the springs then I would size the hole for a metal washer. The spring will stay in place because the threaded rod is passing through.

One last note if you want the springs to last then store the vise in the open position. In my case it is a 15 mile trip one way to get a new spring and what happens if it it is not in stock. Leave the vise open or have extra springs.

I hope this helps someone.

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks Michael and Tom- I’ve found McMaster can be a rabbit hole deeper than a sharpening thread!

[Jim Matthews]

I tried and abandoned the springs as shown. The required enlargement of the clearance hole in the chop was enough to allow easy adjustment.

Instead, a bronze bushing was adapted from out local plumbing supplier. The cast iron wheels interface on a heavy Delrin washer, as they were scoring the bronze.

[Derek Cohen]

I tried and abandoned the springs as shown. The required enlargement of the clearance hole in the chop was enough to allow easy adjustment.

Instead, a bronze bushing was adapted from out local plumbing supplier. The cast iron wheels interface on a heavy Delrin washer, as they were scoring the bronze.

Jim, I get the impression that you believe the springs are to aid smoothness of movement. They are not. The springs are to push the chop back, which aid in opening the chop. I used bronze bushings for smoothness. They have nothing to do with this topic.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

A statement of the obvious, first.
It's unlikely I'll ever cut many dovetails.

The not so obvious: my Moxxon is built directly into the bench, made of local Ash. The movable chop is made of two riftsawn pieces (top half and bottom half with opposing grain) - riftsawn.

At 27" between the "bolts" it moves enough to bind with Seasonal humidity changes. The chop is smaller than the mating front skirt.

It "moves" relatively faster than the bench itself.

After two months with the springs installed, it jammed again, trapped between the bolts. I asked my mentor how to approach the problem.

He suggested making one side "tight" and creating slightly more clearance on the other. Until the assembly may be adjusted. This was done without the springs, for expedience.

I found that with the left hand bolt "loose" the springs were surplus to requirements and one less thing to clean.

This allows me to pinch boards, drawers and long edges in place and tighten the works down on the other side, like leaning into a closet door.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

What is the free length of your springs and what is the spring at solid?

Die springs are sized by the hole size that they will drop into. And it looks as though this holds true with light springs also. The rod or hole diameter is important because it determines what size stripper bolt or spring retainer will fit inside. In case of light springs it will be outside diameter minus 2 wire sizes. So if one has a 3/4 shaft a I inch OD spring is needed.

Spring life is determined by the amount of, in this case, spring compression and the life decreases dramatically as it nears solid. Also a spring should have at least 1/8 inch preload to be effective. I am guessing that a lighter spring would require more preload.

So the working space between the two jaws come into play because if the working ares is 2 inches, a longer spring is needed than if clamping a 1/2 or under thick piece of material. In other words a 15/16 dia. spring will fit in a 1 Inch hole and the depth of the holes is determined by if the spring is 2 inches long than the combining depth should be 1 7/8ths but I would put more preload on the springs because it is easier to drill the hole s deeper than to shim the holes to get more preload. If cutting the springs then I would size the hole for a metal washer. The spring will stay in place because the threaded rod is passing through.

One last note if you want the springs to last then store the vise in the open position. In my case it is a 15 mile trip one way to get a new spring and what happens if it it is not in stock. Leave the vise open or have extra springs.

I hope this helps someone.

Tom, the length of the springs - that is, with the wheels relaxed and measuring between the chop and rear - is 1 1/4 to 1 1/2".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Bussey]

Derek,

I want to know what length of the spring is a solid. That is when the spring is compressed as far as will go. Also what is the thinnest stock you commonly use?

[Tom Bussey]

(At 27" between the "bolts" it moves enough to bind with Seasonal humidity changes. The chop is smaller than the mating front skirt.)

If it sticks with seasonal humidity changes drill out the holes, they should elongated anyway. If it is to tight the springs can't work.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

I want to know what length of the spring is a solid. That is when the spring is compressed as far as will go. Also what is the thinnest stock you commonly use?

Tom, this is the when the spring is compressed. The chop will close up against the rear ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RVHLPNGm/Moxon-spring2.jpg

This is with the springs loosened off - one side is 1 1/2" and the other is 1 1/4" ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Nj87cSWP/Moxon-spring3.jpg

There is no recess into the wood for the springs (as with David Barron's version). Only the lining is cut away ...

https://i.postimg.cc/VsTFBjq4/Moxon-spring5.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/4y0z55Gg/Spring1.jpg

Epoxy is used to hold one end, and centre it. The other end is, obviously, free.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Bussey]

I guess that is what I wanted to know, which is if you made it so the chop would close against the rear.

If a person compresses the the spring to solid then he knows how deep to counterbore the holes so that the vise can close. A spring will not last going to solid and staying there which could happen with this type of vise so it is recommended collapse a spring more that 75 per cent of its travel. Example: you have a 2 inch long spring in the free state and at solid it is 1/2 inch then the travel is 11/2 inches. If you want the spring to last as long as you do, then fix it so the spring never gets collapse more than 75% . That would be 1.5 X .75 = 1.125 (11/8)

So it you have a 1 inch diameter spring drill a 1 inch diameter ( flat bottom drill a forstner drill works the best) 1/2 inch deep ( actually 9/16 but it isn't rocket science actually 5/8 will work fine the spring just wouldn't open the chop as far. in both the chop and the solid jaw. That way the spring will be contained. If not contained the loose end of the spring will tend to flop around and either the chop or solid jaw will have to be made thicker to accommodate the spring depth.

If you are using a 3/4 acme threaded shaft then a 3/4 hole can be drilled the chop, the chop can rest on the threads for up and down movement. But the chop needs to be elongated so it can open and close without binding.

I will finish after breakfast.

[Tom Bussey]

In Derek's posts he used metal tubing in the holes. This allows for the clearance on the thread so that the chop can move more freely. Metal on metal also allows movement more freely than wood on metal which is the best of both worlds.

In other wards with the springs installed when the chop is loosened the part can be removed easily and the chop cannot wiggle and close on its own or if the chop is bumped it will remain open to the exact position it was left in.

All in all the springs added on the moxon vise are a great upgrade. Not necessary but if done right they will improve function and it will be noticeable if the vise is used a lot.

I hope what I had to say helps.

[Tom Bussey]

I got to thinking about what I wrote and since my vise is a little different from most. If a person needs to counter bore for a spring it would all need to be in the chop. The chop would be backed up by the washer and the hand wheel to it wouldn't be s a strength issue. Just correcting myself.

[Tim Andrews]

I just finished my Moxon vise about 4 weeks ago, and it has been fantastic in my garage shop where I don’t have the space for a permanent bench with an installed vise. I remember seeing Paul Seller’s video but had forgotten about it, so thanks Derek for starting this post.

After using my vise I can definitely see how the right springs will be useful to keep the jaws open. I ordered springs from McMaster Carr mentioned earlier in this thread and received them today. Unfortunately, they are far too stiff to work well for this purpose. I got the 3.5 inch springs planning to drill a 1 1/16 recess to allow the jaws to close completely, and chose the smaller diameter of the 2 options. Since the minimum order is 6 springs, I even tried stretching one open to twice its normal length, cutting it in half so that the same length had half the number of coils, but still too stiff.

If anyone has a link to a weaker spring that would work for this purpose, I would appreciate if you post it.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I just finished my Moxon vise about 4 weeks ago, and it has been fantastic in my garage shop where I don’t have the space for a permanent bench with an installed vise. I remember seeing Paul Seller’s video but had forgotten about it, so thanks Derek for starting this post.

After using my vise I can definitely see how the right springs will be useful to keep the jaws open. I ordered springs from McMaster Carr mentioned earlier in this thread and received them today. Unfortunately, they are far too stiff to work well for this purpose. I got the 3.5 inch springs planning to drill a 1 1/16 recess to allow the jaws to close completely, and chose the smaller diameter of the 2 options. Since the minimum order is 6 springs, I even tried stretching one open to twice its normal length, cutting it in half so that the same length had half the number of coils, but still too stiff.

If anyone has a link to a weaker spring that would work for this purpose, I would appreciate if you post it.

Which springs, specifically, did you order? McMaster Carr carries a number of different spring rates for each size. . .

[Tim Andrews]

I ordered these: https://www.mcmaster.com/9657k455

There are 2 options at this length of compression springs, and I got the smaller diameter spring.

[Bill Carey]

Reading this thread got me to wondering: is there a distinct advantage to have a "floating" front chop, or is it simply a matter of the hardware chosen to build your moxon? I used Yost vise screws that attach to the front chop so it moves with action of the screw.

Just wondering if there is a nuance to a floating front chop that I missed.
429938

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I ordered these: https://www.mcmaster.com/9657k455

There are 2 options at this length of compression springs, and I got the smaller diameter spring.
Another option might be Century Spring Company (www.centuryspring.com). They have a greater variety of spring rates for similar size springs.

[chris carter]

Reading this thread got me to wondering: is there a distinct advantage to have a "floating" front chop, or is it simply a matter of the hardware chosen to build your moxon? I used Yost vise screws that attach to the front chop so it moves with action of the screw.

Just wondering if there is a nuance to a floating front chop that I missed.
429938

I have a twin screw on my bench and the chop floats. I find it an advantage more than a disadvantage. If I need my hands free I can put my piece of wood in there and then use my knee or my hip to push it closed and hold the wood temporarily before turning the handles. Also, I don't have a lot of grip strength in my right hand (damaged tendons - long term recovery) and if I have a really heavy piece of wood clamped up I can use the same technique when loosening the vise and then I have both hands available to keep the piece from falling rather than just one hand. I personally don't have any issue with needing the chops to automatically open. When I release the tension, the piece easily comes out (unless I rack the chop hard, then you get a little wedging action and I might need to give it a bump with the palm of my hand to release it). I dunno; I've never found myself saying "I wish this chop automatically opened." But that's just my experience.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a twin screw on my bench and the chop floats. I find it an advantage more than a disadvantage. If I need my hands free I can put my piece of wood in there and then use my knee or my hip to push it closed and hold the wood temporarily before turning the handles. Also, I don't have a lot of grip strength in my right hand (damaged tendons - long term recovery) and if I have a really heavy piece of wood clamped up I can use the same technique when loosening the vise and then I have both hands available to keep the piece from falling rather than just one hand. I personally don't have any issue with needing the chops to automatically open. When I release the tension, the piece easily comes out (unless I rack the chop hard, then you get a little wedging action and I might need to give it a bump with the palm of my hand to release it). I dunno; I've never found myself saying "I wish this chop automatically opened." But that's just my experience.

Chris, I have used twin skew vises for some years before I build my current bench, and then moved to a leg vise and wagon tail vise. Of course, the Moxon is a twin screw vises, which is why you are referring to it.

Here's the thing: I use the twin screw/Moxon differently to you. For me, mine is an efficient method.

Let's take the springs out of the equation for a moment. When I want to clamp a board, I do not attempt to use both screws. I place the board at one end of the chop, and close the chop on that side. Once this is done. I leave that side alone, and only work with the screw on the other side.

Now I can open and close the vise with one screw. Open the chop, place the board in the centre, and tighten the single screw. Done. Want to remove the board? Just loosen one screw and remove the board. Done.

What the springs do is hold the chop to the open position so that sliding the board behind the chop is uncomplicated by a floppy chop closing the gap.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[chris carter]

Chris, I have used twin skew vises for some years before I build my current bench, and then moved to a leg vise and wagon tail vise. Of course, the Moxon is a twin screw vises, which is why you are referring to it.

Here's the thing: I use the twin screw/Moxon differently to you. For me, mine is an efficient method.

Let's take the springs out of the equation for a moment. When I want to clamp a board, I do not attempt to use both screws. I place the board at one end of the chop, and close the chop on that side. Once this is done. I leave that side alone, and only work with the screw on the other side.

Now I can open and close the vise with one screw. Open the chop, place the board in the centre, and tighten the single screw. Done. Want to remove the board? Just loosen one screw and remove the board. Done.

What the springs do is hold the chop to the open position so that sliding the board behind the chop is uncomplicated by a floppy chop closing the gap.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I often do the same working off only one screw.

I'm not saying springs aren't great. I just think it's a personal preference thing. Just like (as I was responding to Bill's post), a floating chop vs one that moves with a turning of the screws is just a personal preference. No better or worse for all, just better or worse for some with a preference toward one or the other. I did notice on your moxon (which, I might add, looks more like a piece of art than a tool! One day I will have that level of skill....), you have leather (or crubber?) on both sides. I only have leather on the outer chop as that provided so much grip that both sides would have been extreme overkill for me. But IF I DID have it on both, then I could see the difficulty of getting wood in and out - particularly without smashing up the leather. Since I only have it on the outer subconsciously tilt the piece of wood by a degree or two so it slides past the top of the leather every time. That wouldn't work very well with leather on both sides I don't think. I'd need to open the chop further than the tiny amount I currently open it to turn a piece of wood around or swap say one drawer side for another drawer side. In that case, yeah, springs would probably be preferable for me.

[Tim Andrews]

Another option might be Century Spring Company (www.centuryspring.com (http://www.centuryspring.com)). They have a greater variety of spring rates for similar size springs.

Michael, thanks for posting that link. I previously did a Google search for over an hour and that company didn’t show up. Their website is a bit difficult to navigate with so many options, because their search filters don’t work well (at least on my computer), but at least they have some springs that might work.

I found a link on EBay and ordered some springs here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/293247074523

They have smaller diameter, weaker springs that I think will work. For $6 including delivery, it’s worth a shot. They are coming from China, so delivery is 2 to 5 weeks. But since my vise works well as it is, I can afford the wait.

[Bill Carey]

....... When I want to clamp a board, I do not attempt to use both screws. I place the board at one end of the chop, and close the chop on that side. Once this is done. I leave that side alone, and only work with the screw on the other side. .............Regards from Perth

Derek

I do exactly the same thing - set the left side and only operate the right to clamp or release a board.

So it seems - except for Chris' kinda unique case - it is simply a matter of the hardware chosen that dictates a floating chop. Or as you referred to it, a floppy chop. (Whatever floppy chops really are, they can't be good. :D )

[Derek Cohen]

The name of the spring I am using is a "conical spring".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Bussey]

The springs on a moxon style vise are a a nice very cheap addition, but if you have a reason for not wanting them or if they are to complicated then by all means don't use them. It is not rocket science.

[Tim Andrews]

Hi, just a quick update to this thread. I was having difficulty finding springs that were not too strong, and were the right diameter. I found these springs on EBay, and even though they took a month to arrive, I was in no hurry and the price was right at $6.00 with shipping: https://www.ebay.com/itm/305mm-Compression-Spring-304-Stainless-Steel-Pressure-Springs-All-Sizes-Dia-Long/293247074523?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=592106935243&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

The spring I ordered was 1.5mm diameter steel, 25mm OD, 305mm length (about 12”). I wanted a longer spring than some others have used, so that it would still work when the jaws were opened over 3”. After some experimenting, I ended up trimming the springs to about 4 1/2” length on each side, and drilled a 1” diameter by 1/2” deep recess to accommodate the folded spring and allow the jaws to close completely.

As Derek indicated, I consider this a very nice upgrade to the Moxon vise. It works quicker and more efficiently with the springs added.

[Adam Grund]

Can I bring back an old thread and ask those of you who bought the conical springs, where you got them?
I’ve searched a number of online spring specific stores, as well as McMaster Carr, and so far have been unsuccessful at finding a spring where the small end diameter is at least .750/ 19mm (the size of the shaft on my vise)
I suppose one fox could be cutting the spring further up wherever the diameter enlarges to the diameter needed

Thanks,
Adam

[Patrick Whitehorn]

Adam,
I ordered these: https://www.mcmaster.com/1692K47/ They are quite large, but they work very very well.

Patrick

[Adam Grund]

Adam,
I ordered these: https://www.mcmaster.com/1692K47/ They are quite large, but they work very very well.

Patrick
Hey thanks!
I’m not sure why, but when I searched the first time I didn’t see any options up that large. Must’ve just not paid attention close enough

[Paul Saffold]

Another option is to skip the springs and the problems they have with being left compressed, and add a garter. I have mine on the outside of the chop so no morticing involved.
I did this back in 2011 and since have realized some problems with my design of the B-O-B. Were I to make another it would be copied from Derek's beautiful design, but with garters.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169530-Bob-s-wearing-garters!-and-leather!!&highlight=bench+on+bench

[Adam Grund]

Another option is to skip the springs and the problems they have with being left compressed, and add a garter. I have mine on the outside of the chop so no morticing involved.
I did this back in 2011 and since have realized some problems with my design of the B-O-B. Were I to make another it would be copied from Derek's beautiful design, but with garters.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169530-Bob-s-wearing-garters!-and-leather!!&highlight=bench+on+bench

Thanks for the idea. By the time you posted, I had already bought and installed the springs (didn’t realize there was a McMaster Carr minutes from where I work, so I was able to skip the shipping)
But if I run in to problems or worn out springs down the road, I’ll give this a thought.

Adam