Westcott chuck for Felder fd 250 Horizontal Mortiser

[Peter Franklin]

Hi,
I have a 20 year old Felder fd 250. Chuck is giving me a lot of run out (10-20 thou). Westcott Chuck. 0-20mm. Is this something that's fixable and relatively an easy fix by someone who's never done it before? If not, does anyone know of a source for replacement Westcott Mortiser chucks? (Not Grizzly, please). They seem to be what all the new Euro machines are selling, but I can't find a source. Also, is it worth upgrading to a different type of chuck?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Peter

[Brian Holcombe]

Are you certain that it is the Chuck that is the issue? Iirc the Chuck slips over a shaft. Check the outside of the Chuck for runout and if it presents there then likely it’s the connection.

[Peter Franklin]

Thanks for your response. I checked the shaft connecting the chuck to the motor and there's no run out (or less than a ten thou or two). So I assume it's the chuck.

I recall reading previous posts from you when researching this issue. I suspect you've already sold yours, but do you recall the manufacturer of the chuck? The logo looks like it spells CODI or COPI, but it's hard to tell.

[Rod Sheridan]

Have you contacted Felder for a replacement?

[Peter Franklin]

Have you contacted Felder for a replacement?

Yes, I contacted them, though concerned it may take a while for them to get back given they're also 'working from home' these days.... Also curious if this type of problem is easily fixable.

[Brian Holcombe]

Measure the shaft first, should measure under .001”. Measure the outside of the Chuck, should read less than .001” then measure a shaft of a carbide bit in the Chuck. If that’s where your runout is presenting and no where else then I would disassemble the Chuck and clean it. If it’s not running out something as simple as a burr or just some junk can cause runout.

[Jeff Duncan]

Try a search for the Felder chuck, I saw what I think was a new one for sale recently, juts forget where???

No idea if you can get the runout fixed... they're pretty simple mechanisms. Pull it apart, clean it thoroughly, put it back together and recheck. Probably take all of 15 - 20 minutes.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Franklin]

Measure the shaft first, should measure under .001”. Measure the outside of the Chuck, should read less than .001” then measure a shaft of a carbide bit in the Chuck. If that’s where your runout is presenting and no where else then I would disassemble the Chuck and clean it. If it’s not running out something as simple as a burr or just some junk can cause runout.

Thanks, Brian. Checked shaft and outside of chuck and barely getting any runout -- maybe a ten thou or two. Disassembled, cleaned and put back together and much improved. I'm down to .002, far better than the .02 I was seeing before.

Not to be greedy, but I wouldn't mind getting it even better if possible. Other than taking apart, checking again for burrs or dirt and reassembling, and ideas on how to improve more?

[Brian Holcombe]

Excellent, glad that helped to resolve it. It would be nice to get it under .001” but I’m not certain that much improvement can be made without replacing the jaws. Sometimes it helps to just re-Chuck it and see if the number improves. Moving to a different design may help, by design a collet Chuck will have considerably less runout, unfortunately changing such a thing on that machine would be quite a task.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks, Brian. Checked shaft and outside of chuck and barely getting any runout -- maybe a ten thou or two. Disassembled, cleaned and put back together and much improved. I'm down to .002, far better than the .02 I was seeing before.

Not to be greedy, but I wouldn't mind getting it even better if possible. Other than taking apart, checking again for burrs or dirt and reassembling, and ideas on how to improve more?

Now that you've solved the chuck issue are the slots and mortises accurate enough?

If so, time to stop working on machinery and start working with the machinery:D

Regards, Rod.

[Brian Holcombe]

Now that you've solved the chuck issue are the slots and mortises accurate enough?

If so, time to stop working on machinery and start working with the machinery:D

Regards, Rod.

How so? Runout is tough on cutters, nothing wrong with chasing it out of the system.

[Wes Grass]

I planned, if I got one of these (never did), to see if I could adapt an ER-32 system on it instead. That morphed into buying the table attachment for the planer and building the rest around a belt drive spindle with interchangeable tool holders, like a milling machine. So I could drop the RPM way down for drilling.

That never happened either. A mill is much simpler. And I already have that.

I've had to chase runout with ER's as well. But it's 2 tenths vs thou with small cutters.

[Rod Sheridan]

How so? Runout is tough on cutters, nothing wrong with chasing it out of the system.

That’s true, however if the work is as accurate as required it’s often time to stop chasing the rabbit before you go down the hole...Rod

[Brian Holcombe]

That’s true, however if the work is as accurate as required it’s often time to stop chasing the rabbit before you go down the hole...Rod

.002” is a significant amount of runout for an application that will take a side load.

[Rod Sheridan]

.002” is a significant amount of runout for an application that will take a side load.

Yes it is, I was thinking in millimetres and wondering why anyone would be chasing that...........My apologies.......Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

.002” is a significant amount of runout for an application that will take a side load.

Not to try and stir the pot or anything, but IMHO if your within two thousandths on most woodworking machines your in good shape. My 2 larger shapers, which are vastly heavier built pieces of equipment than the slot mortiser, both have about that much spindle runout. It does not affect the fit of joints in any perceivable way. IME your going to get at least that much in flexing of the bits being used on the slot mortiser.

Anyway thats just my opinion and to each their own. Not trying to disrespect anyone else's opinion, just feel its worth saying that you don't need the precision of a new Bridgeport mill in order to do fine woodworking;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight, just a few observations:

-I've never actually checked runout on one of these setups but surely, 0.002" is enough to get a good slot mortise, right?
-I don't use an FD-250 much, though it's a popular Felder machine. I do, however, have a decent amount of experience with the mortising ATTACHMENT for combo machines from my Italian days, which probably used the exact same Wescott chuck as the FD-250. Sold a bunch to customers, used a bunch in-house. I would venture a guess that running off the cutterhead of a jointer/planer probably has inherently more runout than a dedicated machine would. Literally never had a complaint about accuracy during all those years.
-Do I remember right that the OP has a 20-year old machine? Folks order replacement parts for older machines all the time. You could always order a brand-new chuck if it's that big of a deal, right?

It's a good machine, been a staple in the lineup. Hope you get to get to enjoy creating some projects with it.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Just a few additional comments. In addition to the chuck itself, the motor frame mount to the table is important. Brian here has a whole thread on the subject. The good news is the 20 year old machine had a little more stout mount so that should be good. The bearings are probably at their end though and arbor bearings also are a factor. New decent C2 bearings would be on my change list if I were chasing run out and reworking the machine. I would not use standard motor bearings in this application. Dave

[Brian Holcombe]

Not to try and stir the pot or anything, but IMHO if your within two thousandths on most woodworking machines your in good shape. My 2 larger shapers, which are vastly heavier built pieces of equipment than the slot mortiser, both have about that much spindle runout. It does not affect the fit of joints in any perceivable way. IME your going to get at least that much in flexing of the bits being used on the slot mortiser.

Anyway thats just my opinion and to each their own. Not trying to disrespect anyone else's opinion, just feel its worth saying that you don't need the precision of a new Bridgeport mill in order to do fine woodworking;)

good luck,
JeffD

I think we can divide this up into:

- Is this an acceptable situation for the machine itself

- can it still make accurate joinery.

A spindle is typically quite precise, even a typical handheld router is going up measure pretty tight TIR inside the taper.

My comments are mainly directed at the dismissal of need for consideration but then Rod says he was thinking in metric. .002mm is a heck of a lot smaller than .002”.

To me, it’s borderline, if it were a drill Chuck it’s fine but in this setup searching for an improvement is not a terrible waste of time.

[Peter Franklin]

Just a few additional comments. In addition to the chuck itself, the motor frame mount to the table is important. Brian here has a whole thread on the subject. The good news is the 20 year old machine had a little more stout mount so that should be good. The bearings are probably at their end though and arbor bearings also are a factor. New decent C2 bearings would be on my change list if I were chasing run out and reworking the machine. I would not use standard motor bearings in this application. Dave

Just tuning back in to this thread after a break. Thanks for all the comments everyone.

Do you have a link to the motor frame mount thread? I tried searching, but no luck.

While I have no run out on the motor shaft, I did notice strange noise a couple times while running. I guess bad bearings could be an explanation.

[Brian Holcombe]

Here you are:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?267251-Fixin%92-Up-Feldy

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?265523-Felder-FD-250-Building-a-fence-thoughts/page3

Here is another part I added to the fence

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?276666-FD-250-Clearing-space

[Peter Franklin]

Here you are:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?267251-Fixin%92-Up-Feldy

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?265523-Felder-FD-250-Building-a-fence-thoughts/page3

Here is another part I added to the fence

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?276666-FD-250-Clearing-space

Great! Thanks much.