Warped Box Top

[Tim Boger]

Hey ... I made this and sent it to a customer in New York from South Carolina 2 weeks ago, I've included a few pics to show the box before I sent it and what it looks like now.

When I make a box I miter the 4 sides and cut a slot just above the bottom of the sides for a 1/8 in piece of hard board to become the bottom. Then when dry I usually glue the top in place then the next day when dry I run it through the Bandsaw to include a 1/2 inch of the body of the box to remain attached to the top.

The Walnut top had been 1/2 thick stock I've had in my basement shop for a couple of years. my point being that I did not have to re-saw the top. After cutting the top off and then spray it inside and out with rattle can Rust- Oleum Clear Gloss Lacquer ... probably 3-4 coats until the finish was uniform.

I'm not a perfectionist and my prices reflect that, I sell of Etsy and an occasional referral.

What did I do wrong or what do I need to do differently as this is not the first time I've had warping issues?

Thank you,
Tim

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[John TenEyck]

I'm surprised this is the only lid that has warped. By gluing the lid to the box you have made it impossible for the lid to expand/contract as the RH changes. Of course, it will anyway, but since it's glued down it will either warp or split. This one warped. Where you shipped it to had lower RH than your shop, as evidence by the way it warped. You need to change your construction approach to prevent this from happening again. Perhaps set the lid in a frame, like a frame and panel door, so that it can expand/contract.

Sorry to say, but you should expect more calls.

John

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

Gorgeous box, but I think John is correct. You have that highly figured wood and then glue the plain saw walnut to the top. It is going to twist up like a pretzel once you start getting big changes in humidity.

The top needs to be a floating panel.

[Mike Henderson]

About the only way you could make that work is is you used quarter sawn lumber for the top. Quarter sawn doesn't expand and contract as much as plain sawn lumber. [A side note: I've found that kiln dried lumber doesn't expand and contract as much as air dried lumber.]

Even with quarter sawn lumber, I'd make the parts glued to the top thicker. It looks like those pieces are about 1/2 inch. I'd go at least 3/4 inch.

But making the top differently, perhaps as a panel captured by four sides (like a frame and panel door) would allow the panel to expand and contract.

Mike

[I occasionally make boxes - not for sale. If you want to see how I do it, look here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/BoxTutorial-2ndVersion.htm).]

[Rob Luter]

But making the top differently, perhaps as a panel captured by four sides (like a frame and panel door) would allow the panel to expand and contract.

That's how I do it (see below). I saw the top from the box after glue up. I've never had one warp (knock on wood).

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[Andrew Hughes]

I agree the grain direction of the top and the grain of the side cross. I’ve made a few boxes like that and have gotten lucky.

[Edwin Santos]

About the only way you could make that work is is you used quarter sawn lumber for the top. Quarter sawn doesn't expand and contract as much as plain sawn lumber. [A side note: I've found that kiln dried lumber doesn't expand and contract as much as air dried lumber.]



Or if you have the ability to veneer, you could make the top out of a stable material like mdf or plywood, veneered with your wood of choice. A common practice is to glue strips of the show wood onto the four sides of the substrate and then veneer the whole thing. That way the edges match the faces plus you can eliminate exposed end grain if you miter the edging pieces. If you do it this way, then gluing directly the lid to the box like you did would be fine.
What I'm describing is a common practice for people who build humidor boxes.

[Tim Boger]

Thank you John, Tim

[Tim Boger]

Thank you for your insight, I appreciate it.
Tim
Gorgeous box, but I think John is correct. You have that highly figured wood and then glue the plain saw walnut to the top. It is going to twist up like a pretzel once you start getting big changes in humidity.

The top needs to be a floating panel.

[Tim Boger]

Hey Mike, I appreciate your feedback, the link to your tutorial will be most useful.
Thank you, Tim

About the only way you could make that work is is you used quarter sawn lumber for the top. Quarter sawn doesn't expand and contract as much as plain sawn lumber. [A side note: I've found that kiln dried lumber doesn't expand and contract as much as air dried lumber.]

Even with quarter sawn lumber, I'd make the parts glued to the top thicker. It looks like those pieces are about 1/2 inch. I'd go at least 3/4 inch.

But making the top differently, perhaps as a panel captured by four sides (like a frame and panel door) would allow the panel to expand and contract.

Mike

[I occasionally make boxes - not for sale. If you want to see how I do it, look here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/BoxTutorial-2ndVersion.htm).]

[Tim Boger]

That's how I do it (see below). I saw the top from the box after glue up. I've never had one warp (knock on wood).

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Hey Rob ... your method appears to be the same as mine, you've had no issues? Thanks for sharing. Tim

[Tim Boger]

Thanks Edwin for the suggestion of Veneering. At this point I have never done any veneer work. Might be a good time to learn. Thanks, Tim


Or if you have the ability to veneer, you could make the top out of a stable material like mdf or plywood, veneered with your wood of choice. A common practice is to glue strips of the show wood onto the four sides of the substrate and then veneer the whole thing. That way the edges match the faces plus you can eliminate exposed end grain if you miter the edging pieces. If you do it this way, then gluing directly the lid to the box like you did would be fine.
What I'm describing is a common practice for people who build humidor boxes.

[Rob Luter]

Hey Rob ... your method appears to be the same as mine, you've had no issues? Thanks for sharing. Tim

I don't think so. Based on your original post, your bottom is fitted into a groove but your top is a slab glued to the edge of the mitered perimeter frame. Did I misunderstand? In my approach, top and bottom are fitted into a groove and both float. See the crude sketch below.

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I used the approach on this box too (below). No issues.

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[Mike Henderson]

One more suggestion: You said you use hardboard for the bottom. Why not make the bottom from some nice wood? You have it captured in a groove in the sides so you're okay for wood movement (just leave it a bit loose). Some nice grained wood looks much nicer than hardboard when someone picks up the box and looks at the bottom.

You could make a panel about 3/16 inch thick. Alternately, you can make the bottom thicker and then taper the edges to maybe 1/8 inch to go into the grooves. I'd put the tapered side down.

Mike

[Andrew Hughes]

When I make a box that’s really going well I’ll put something aromatic in the bottom. Right now my two choices are port orford cedar and Cedar of Lebanon a true cedar.
Its a very nice surprise.
Quality hinges like brusso too.

[Phil Mueller]

Another way to go, if you decide to get into veneer, is to inset a veneered top (1/2” ply or mdf) into a rabbit. The rabbit is made prior to assembly and I make it so the rabbit is a bit deeper than the thickness of the veneered top (this leave the side a bit proud to plane flush after glue up. You can then hide the “seam” with stringing or banding inlay.


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I’ll just note that veneering (especially small box tops) doesn’t take much. I use Titebond cold press glue, a couple of 3/4” cauls, a couple sheets of wax paper, and some clamps. Once you do it, you’ll wonder why you didn’t try it sooner...and it allows you to use some pretty nice wood without the price of full size stock.

[Tim Boger]

Hi Phil, that veneer is really nice looking! I think I should learn how to use a hand plane first :Dlol. Thanks for the ideas, I appreciate the help.
Tim

Another way to go, if you decide to get into veneer, is to inset a veneered top (1/2” ply or mdf) into a rabbit. The rabbit is made prior to assembly and I make it so the rabbit is a bit deeper than the thickness of the veneered top (this leave the side a bit proud to plane flush after glue up. You can then hide the “seam” with stringing or banding inlay.


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I’ll just note that veneering (especially small box tops) doesn’t take much. I use Titebond cold press glue, a couple of 3/4” cauls, a couple sheets of wax paper, and some clamps. Once you do it, you’ll wonder why you didn’t try it sooner...and it allows you to use some pretty nice wood without the price of full size stock.

[Mike Henderson]

Another way to go, if you decide to get into veneer, is to inset a veneered top (1/2” ply or mdf) into a rabbit. The rabbit is made prior to assembly and I make it so the rabbit is a bit deeper than the thickness of the veneered top (this leave the side a bit proud to plane flush after glue up. You can then hide the “seam” with stringing or banding inlay.

I’ll just note that veneering (especially small box tops) doesn’t take much. I use Titebond cold press glue, a couple of 3/4” cauls, a couple sheets of wax paper, and some clamps. Once you do it, you’ll wonder why you didn’t try it sooner...and it allows you to use some pretty nice wood without the price of full size stock.

That's a good approach, Phil, I'll try that. Thanks.

Mike

[Tom Bender]

Don't connect the top to the sides at all. If the top is just one piece it will stay flatter. Allow room for it to expand and contract by making it overhang the sides.