Shapton 5000 Sigma 6000 and 13000

[Mark R Webster]

I typically use Shapton Pro 1000, 5000 and 8000. I have seen posts suggesting the the Sigma 6000 is some how better than the Shapton Pro 5000. Has anyone here found a difference in the two. In regards to The Sigma 13000, I have never used a stone that fine. Does it make much difference above an 8000 and how can one jump from a Sigma 6000 to a 13000. It seems there should be an intermediate grit or at the finer grits it isn't really a big jump? Thanks

[Tom M King]

I can tell you that there is a noticeable difference between the 13k, and any 8k. The 13 cuts faster than it seems like it ought to. I do have a 10k, that cuts down on the total number of strokes needed, but it's not necessary. I bought the 10k used, as my first Sigma trial, to see if I liked those stones, and filled in the empty slots since then.

I don't especially like Shapton stones, only because of personal feel, but don't see any need for you to replace any of them, since you already have them. I wouldn't want to be without the 13 Sigma though.

[David Eisenhauer]

I have been using the Sigma 6K and 13K stones for chisels and plane irons for a few years now and am very satisfied with the use of and the results from the stones. There does not appear to be a need for an intermediate stone between the two as the 13K seems to just further refine the 6K edge with a few strokes. The pink speckled 6K Sigma stone seems to be the best stone I have ever used in terms of results expected for a particular grade. I use the 6K after a 1K stone and the edge really jumps up after the 6K. I soak them 10 minutes before use and have developed the habit of dropping them into their tubs when I walk into the shop opening windows, etc and expect to use them sometime.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks David, are there different Sigma 6000 stones. As in Shapton pros vs glass? If so is one line better of using the typical plane irons of 01, A2 or pm-v11?

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Tom!!

[Tony Shea]

I personally use the Shapton pro's (1K, 5K, and 12K) and absolutely love them. I have some other intermediate grit Shapton Pro's that I've picked up just out of curiosity but settled on using just the 3 with no need for anything intermediate. Having said this I would absolutely love to try out the Sigma Power stones, specifically the 6K as I've always heard great things. The current reason I have not gone down this path is there is no longer a source that I know of selling Sigma Power's. After Stu got done, I for the life of me can't find these stones for sale anywhere. The price he had these stones for was also amazing and I should've jumped all over them back in the day.

I do think people are confusing the Sigma Power Select II's for the coveted Sigma Power stones and know from reading Stu's blog posts that these stones are nothing alike. The Power Select II's are designed for very hard steels, HSS or similar, and tend to wear very quickly constantly exposing new grit to abrade the metal much faster.

If anyone knows of a good source for the Sigma Power I would to see it.

[Mark R Webster]

As would I, if anyone knows of a source? Thanks Tony

[ken hatch]

I have Shapton Pros and Glass through 1600 and Sigma 1K, 6K, and 13K also in my stone cabinet. I mostly use India, Washita, and Hard Ark with either a Surgical Black Ark or a JNat to polish. Both the Shaptons, Glass or Pro, while reasonably fast and leave a high polish they also leave a final scratch pattern that sucks.

I just dug out the Sigma stones and they are soaking for a bit. It has been awhile since I've tried them. I'll make a run on both Western O1 and Japanese White #1 and report back, not that it makes a difference.

ken

[Beau Brooks]

Heartwood Tools is selling the Sigma Power Select II stones. I have no experience with them but noticed the other day they are selling Sigma stones and HNT Gordon in the US.

[Mark R Webster]

Hi Ken, are your Sigmas the Select IIs or the earlier choice? Is there a reason you put them in drawer and are using the Shapton?

[Mark R Webster]

Hi Beau, I see the web site but as you stated they are offering the Power Select II stones and not the earlier version? Thanks

[Mark R Webster]

It appears the Select IIs are designed for the harder steels. As a result they may wear faster than other stones. Has that been the case for you, do they dish faster than the shaptons?

[David Eisenhauer]

It has been too long since I bought my Sigma stones to remember which particular line it was in, but do know that someone else bought a Sigma 6K stone that is a darker yellow color and is not quite the stone that the Sigma pink speckled 6K stone is. Ask from whomever you buy from to confirm the color.

[David Eisenhauer]

I believe Derek C uses the Sigmas, perhaps he has a vendor over in that part of the world that handles the preferred Sigma line that he can turn us on to. I would buy another pink speckled stone for sure.

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken, are your Sigmas the Select IIs or the earlier choice? Is there a reason you put them in drawer and are using the Shapton?

Mark,

I believe they are Select II but could be wrong, I bought them from Stew a year or two before he went out of business. I'm not using the Shaptons.

I just like the results from natural stones better than from synthetic stones. BTW, because of this thread I just gave the Sigma stones a run. All my cutters are O1 or #1, or #2 White Paper steel. If you use A2 or other more modern steel I expect your opinion would vary or be different. The edge I get off the Ark stones and a oiled strop is as fast and maybe better (that could be because I use the Ark stones all the time and can do a better job of judging the edge/burr) than off the Sigma stones. I did an A&B with a Sorby chisel. Sharpened it on the Sigma 1K, 6K, and 13K and while I never test my cutters this time I did. After testing I sharpened on my normal oil stones followed by a couple or three pulls on an oiled strop and while subjective the chisel was easier to push after the oil stones, feeling the surface I could feel no difference but under a loupe the oils stone surface was smoother. Again all subjective but I've done this over the years and only JNats will leave a surface as good or better than my Surgical Black Ark. Of course YMMV and probably will.

ken

P.S. the 6K is pink and speckled

[Mark R Webster]

I suspect you have the earlier type since the ones I see listed are the darker yellow. I can PM Derek unless he is following.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Ken. The 6000 Select IIs I am seeing advertised are yellow so maybe you got the earlier one. Thanks for doing some testing

[Tom M King]

Some of mine are Sigma Power, and some are Select II's, but I forget which is which. They're both really fast. All of mine, except for the 10k, that I bought used, came from Stuart at Tools from Japan. I have the 400, 1k, 2k, 3k, 6k (pink speckled), 10k, and 13k. I think the 13 was only available in Select II. I figured that they would all wear less if I had small steps, so each stone would have the least possible work to do, and liked them so much, that I decided to get them while I could.

Lee Valley sells the Select II.

My friend that goes to Japan did some shopping for me over there, but he found that the prices were no better than online, so I told him not to bother to bring anything back.

[Mark R Webster]

Interesting that the apparent supply for Sigma Powers seems to have dried up. I PMd Derek, hopefully he will reply. I also sent an email to the Sigma company in Japan, the web site is in Japanese, we'll see how that goes. I just asked if they still made the earlier version.

[Tony Shea]

Mark,

I believe they are Select II but could be wrong, I bought them from Stew a year or two before he went out of business. I'm not using the Shaptons.

I just like the results from natural stones better than from synthetic stones. BTW, because of this thread I just gave the Sigma stones a run. All my cutters are O1 or #1, or #2 White Paper steel. If you use A2 or other more modern steel I expect your opinion would vary or be different. The edge I get off the Ark stones and a oiled strop is as fast and maybe better (that could be because I use the Ark stones all the time and can do a better job of judging the edge/burr) than off the Sigma stones. I did an A&B with a Sorby chisel. Sharpened it on the Sigma 1K, 6K, and 13K and while I never test my cutters this time I did. After testing I sharpened on my normal oil stones followed by a couple or three pulls on an oiled strop and while subjective the chisel was easier to push after the oil stones, feeling the surface I could feel no difference but under a loupe the oils stone surface was smoother. Again all subjective but I've done this over the years and only JNats will leave a surface as good or better than my Surgical Black Ark. Of course YMMV and probably will.

ken

P.S. the 6K is pink and speckled


If I had to guess Ken you have the Sigma Power not the Select II's. The standard Sigma Powers that you have are preferable IMO. I only guess that these are the ones you have because you got them from Stu and I assume you picked up the 1K, 6K, 13K set he was selling for an amazing price. I kick myself to this day for not picking those up. Let me know if you ever want to part with them, they are stones I've been dying to test out to see if they are in fact better than my Shapton's.

Unfortunately after your post I might also be searching for a Black Arkansas as well.

[ken hatch]

If I had to guess Ken you have the Sigma Power not the Select II's. The standard Sigma Powers that you have are preferable IMO. I only guess that these are the ones you have because you got them from Stu and I assume you picked up the 1K, 6K, 13K set he was selling for an amazing price. I kick myself to this day for not picking those up. Let me know if you ever want to part with them, they are stones I've been dying to test out to see if they are in fact better than my Shapton's.

Unfortunately after your post I might also be searching for a Black Arkansas as well.

Tony,

Not all natural stones are equal, I went through a few Surgical Black and Translucent stones to find this one. That's the bad news, the good is it is a full 1" thick and I'll be dead, my grand kids will be dead and their grand kids will be dead and it still will not be worn out.

Pay the postage both ways and I'll let you try the Sigma stones. I don't think they are anything special but I'm not a fan of synthetic stones they could be the best thing ever.

ken

P.S. I guess I should say for honing and polishing, I love India stones for grinding.

[Derek Cohen]

I sent Mark this message, but it occurred to me that others would appreciate Stu's review ..


Sigma Power 'Select II' stones.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/bmz_cache/1/1509225dd76fd199965b6e86eb85473d.image.53x40.JPG
These special waterstones are purpose designed for shaping and sharpening High Speed Steel and also to cut faster in harder, tougher steels than any other stone available.

To accomplish this they are composed of abrasive and nothing more minimal binder. As there is minimal binder as is present in most all other waterstones, which means that these stones do break down a little more quickly than hard ceramic stones. In exchange for this apparent flaw, they cut significantly faster most any other commercially available waterstone on the market. Depending on the steel being sharpened, between 30-200% faster, which alleviates the dishing concern to such an extent that in most situations, it will not be noticeable. Simply put, they do their work before they have a chance to get out of flat.

While they are designed for very hard, tenacious and tough steels, they also cut more simple and softer steels at a rate that is difficult to describe. If you are used to waterstones that 'cut quickly', the Select II is on an entirely new plane of fast.

These stones do require some soaking, especially the lower grit stones, but perform best 'just damp' and after some slurry is generated which occurs very quickly. They are also virtually immune to clogging due to the abrasive breaking free of the stone so easily. Any possible clogging is removed almost as soon as it occurs.

Occasionally the term 'amazing' might be used for waterstones, but is only really appropriate with these. They truly are amazing.

Suitable for all known blade steels, including High Speed steel, Powdered Metal, Stainless Steels and all conventional blade and cutlery steels.

Available in #220, #1000, #3000, #6000 and #10000 grit, the remaining grits of #400, #1200 and #13000 being of a more conventional composition yet intended for the same purpose, to work with very hard steels effectively.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Sigma Select II are also available from Dieter Schmid:

https://www.fine-tools.com/sigma.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Derek!!

[David Eisenhauer]

Followup for Derek - Is your 6K stone the "pink speckled" one or the "dark yellow" one?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Tony,

Not all natural stones are equal, I went through a few Surgical Black and Translucent stones to find this one. That's the bad news, the good is it is a full 1" thick and I'll be dead, my grand kids will be dead and their grand kids will be dead and it still will not be worn out.

Pay the postage both ways and I'll let you try the Sigma stones. I don't think they are anything special but I'm not a fan of synthetic stones they could be the best thing ever.

ken

P.S. I guess I should say for honing and polishing, I love India stones for grinding.

My favorite natural stones are from Dan's Whetstones, and many who had trouble finding something workable tried a Dan's and was good to go. The good news about Dan's is that their finest stone is a Black, which is finer and cheaper than the translucent. The bad news is that it is not cheap.

I see that Derek added his two cents to this, so be sure to give that a good read (duh).

I considered replacing my Pro 5K but frankly, it does what I need with the steel that I use and it will take me a long to wear it out. I really like not having to soak my stones.

[Tom M King]

I don't soak the Sigma's, but do use them under running water. There is no time spent getting ready, other than putting whichever one I use on the stone holder, which is not tightened for any, turn the water on, and go to work. I have a dedicated sharpening sink now, and water runs out of the ground, all around here, so I'm not really wasting water.

edited to add: The only reason for soaking is so some stands on the surface. If the stone soaks it in, you have to put enough on it until it doesn't just soak it up. Soaking does that, but also, being supplied a constant supply on the surface, it doesn't matter if the stone is soaking it up, or not.

[Jonathan Elliott]

Only one i've ever been able to find since Stu closed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japan-waterstone-whetstone-sharpening-stone-sharpen-6000-SIGMA-POWER-CERAMIC/282674702555

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks I ordered one!

[Derek Cohen]

Followup for Derek - Is your 6K stone the "pink speckled" one or the "dark yellow" one?

David, it is dark yellow (second from left). Darker than the Shapton 1000, and lighter than the Sigma Sellect II 13000 (far left) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/rs4VN13q/Sharpening-Station2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek