I was walking my dog . .

[lowell holmes]

and the plastic garbage cans are lining the street for trash pick up.

One had a Made in Mexico tag on it. At least it was made in this hemisphere.

[Patrick Walsh]

OMG you mean it ain’t made in Mericah.....

Shame on us.

[Bruce Volden]

Imma thinking, hopefully, more stuff will be made in USA in the future after this virus mess.

Bruce

[Rod Sheridan]

Imma thinking, hopefully, more stuff will be made in USA in the future after this virus mess.

Bruce

I hope so, however historically we have’s been willing to pay for it...Rod

[Matt Day]

If it was made in the USA it would have been garbage.

See what I did there? ;-)

[Mark Bolton]

This has been an ongoing topic in my shop conversations with locals, customers, and vendors as of late with all the talk of closing the borders and states initiating border checks for people moving from hotspots to less-hot spots. Somehow in all those conversations it always seems to spin back to importing and bringing manufacturing and work back to the US and NA. The brutally hard part with that is how to you motivate a society of people (mainly speaking to the young people) to be willing to to go to work and cash a paycheck (albeit not a kings ransom) making product that the US/NA consumer is flatly unwilling to pay for? I dont see it happening.

I just picked up close to $10K worth of hardwood from our hardwood supplier who has about 3 million board feet of material on the yard at any point in time. A million+ board feet of KD, and 2 million BF+ air drying or in the process of KD/surfacing. Like me he is in a rural area and trying to find young/old/novice/experienced help that is willing to drive a fork truck or do mill yard work, climb the ladder and get promotions and so on, for even a fairly reasonable hourly rate is virtually impossible. You float an add in the paper, 20 apply, 10 walk out instantly, wont take a drug test, 4 more will, and fail, 3 of the remainder make it to the end of the application process, 2 get hired, one shows up on day one, and doest come back on day two.

You can argue that the answer is to pay more but we are talking a decent wage, close to home, no commute time, and a where you can likely work all the hours you want and more... not interested.

Now the mill buys a house up the road, and hires a bunch of legal migrant workers. He says they show up early, want to stay late (even if they are off the clock), work their butts off, and you have to beat them off like flies to get them to go to the house. We are being handed our hats. I spoke with a drywall finisher recently and a brick mason who echo'd the same thing. The migrant drywall crew hangs 120 sheets a day compared to the domestic crew hanging 40. Same deal with bricks.

Sadly I think our parents loving need for their children to have more, and never feel pain or have to suffer, has crippled our workforce. We are simply being outworked.

[Rod Sheridan]

If it was made in the USA it would have been garbage.

See what I did there? ;-)

Yes, you should be punished....Rod

[Edwin Santos]

This has been an ongoing topic in my shop conversations with locals, customers, and vendors as of late with all the talk of closing the borders and states initiating border checks for people moving from hotspots to less-hot spots. Somehow in all those conversations it always seems to spin back to importing and bringing manufacturing and work back to the US and NA. The brutally hard part with that is how to you motivate a society of people (mainly speaking to the young people) to be willing to to go to work and cash a paycheck (albeit not a kings ransom) making product that the US/NA consumer is flatly unwilling to pay for? I dont see it happening.

I just picked up $10K worth of hardwood from our hardwood supplier who has about 3 million board feet of material on the yard at any point in time. A million+ board feet of KD, and 2 million BF+ air drying or in the process of KD/surfacing. Like me he is in a rural area and trying to find young/old/novice/experienced help that is willing to drive a fork truck or do mill yard work, climb the ladder and get promotions and so on, for even a fairly reasonable hourly rate is virtually impossible. You float an add in the paper, 20 apply, 10 walk out instantly, wont take a drug test, 4 more will, and fail, 3 of the remainder make it to the end of the application process, 2 get hired, one shows up on day one, and doest come back on day two.

You can argue that the answer is to pay more but we are talking a decent wage, close to home, no commute time, and a where you can likely work all the hours you want and more... not interested.

Now the mill buys a house up the road, and hires a bunch of legal migrant workers. He says they show up early, want to stay late (even if they are off the clock), work their butts off, and you have to beat them off like flies to get them to go to the house. We are being handed our hats. I spoke with a drywall finisher recently and a brick mason who echo'd the same thing. The migrant drywall crew hangs 120 sheets a day compared to the domestic crew hanging 40. Same deal with bricks.

Sadly I think our parents loving need for their children to have more, and never feel pain or have to suffer, has crippled our workforce. We are simply being outworked.

If you changed some of the terminology of your summary, you have done a pretty good job of describing (at least one aspect of) the Roman Empire around the beginning of it's decline. But of course instead of migrants, they were using slaves and indentured workers from the territories they had conquered - to do the work they no longer wanted to do.
And eventually they became excessively dependent on these slaves while the Romans themselves were more consumed than ever with entertainment and other non-productive activities of various sorts.
Eventually this all led to their economy collapsing because the supply pipeline of slaves was not sufficient to support the increasing number of Romans adopting the good life. Partly because they had run out of places to conquer.

No one pays attention to these lessons anymore because it's well, ancient history.
Edwin

[Mark Bolton]

you have done a pretty good job of describing (at least one aspect of) the Roman Empire around the beginning of it's decline.

The trajectory is pretty easily deduced. Ive been tooting this horn for 35 years. The unfortunate part is the only way its going to be resolved is we have to pay more. Not more wages, more for goods. A trash can (in a futile attempt to appease the mods of "on topic" and sticky's worded in biblical "thou shalt be... blah blah") will need to cost what its true cost is. Same with a gallon of gasoline.

This is going to be an interesting summer. No apocalypse, but its going to be wild to watch it unfold and it may sweep a lot of us into the mess than we think.

[Mel Fulks]

You guys must see a pretty girl on the street and think "she's gonna get old ". Italy is still a good place. There are all
kinds of business things that bind countrys. The Soviet Union collapsed, was that bad? When I was kid we were told
the robots were going to take our jobs. Are there any robots that have a job you want ? We used to bring people here and make them work. A LOT of people want to
work here, which do you prefer?

[Mark Bolton]

You guys must see a pretty girl on the street and think "she's gonna get old "

Kinda more like.. ooooh.. Id like to get old with her


The Soviet Union collapsed, was that bad?

I think you'd have to ask the people as it has pretty much never recovered and is "regime" led by someone who will savagely make sure he is in power for as long as he see's possible.


When I was kid we were told the robots were going to take our jobs. Are there any robots that have a job you want ?

Actually yes, there is one sitting in my shop, would I love to be compensated to "craft" cabinetry? Sure? Not an option now because the consumer finds no value so the "robot" does it cheaper. in hind sight I may well have saved some money and ditched the CNC and hired an immigration attorney to populate my shop with 2-5 humans and potentially cranked out the same work or more.


A LOT of people want to work here, which do you prefer?

This statement makes me think youve been out of the hiring workers world for a bit too long. Its simply an untruth.

[Mel Fulks]

I will pick one . You mean the people trying to get into this country DON'T want to work ?

[Mark Bolton]

I will pick one . You mean the people trying to get into this country DON'T want to work ?

Opposite....

[Rod Sheridan]

I will pick one . You mean the people trying to get into this country DON'T want to work ?

I'm not in the US however in Canada it's the opposite in most cases............Rod.

[Patrick Walsh]

Five years ago I was still working for a high end residential custom home builder as a carpenter.

I had to find another way simply based on my surroundings. The dynamic was this, a bunch of fat bald old white guys milking the clock pissed at where they landed in life based on the decisions they made when they were young. As a result sinking the business of every employer they had ever had. This was contrast by a equally sized and growing workforce of highly skilled immigrants that busted ass and where happy to do so. The white guys all the while bitching about their jobs bing stolen build a wall yada yada.

Made me sick and ultimately was painful enough to motivate me to find a way out. It also made me hate white guys and have the utmost respect for our immigrants. Whenever I would bump shoulder on a job site with a hard working immigrant with a smile on his face and good attitude “you can see this immediately in someone’s eyes and smile” I would instantly want to be his friend. A white guy with a chip on his shoulder that clearly doesn’t know the meaning of hard work and I just want to puke throw my hands in the air and tell the world how great us Americans have become. It became more work than “a immigrants day of hard work” to spend any amount of hours with these type people never mind 40-60 a week. And they felt the same way about me as their lazy asses were all “merca” build a wall and you a dam snowflake communist..

I have been working in the trades on and off since 1992. I can remember as teenager painting houses summers “in my area” very very nice houses. But being I was painting them clearly I was of a different demographic. The skilled workers that I marveled at in those days as I shamefully swing a paint brush where all white guys most later in their years. Now 20 plus years later those highly skilled workers doing exceptional work are no longer white. They tend to be Hispanic, they work there asses of and are happy to do so as they come from knowing, know what nothing really is and are motivated to do everything they can to not have nothing. Most times if your white on a job site in the Boston area you are the minority. Something I have seen change in my lifetime. And I say good for them as these imagrwnt workers deserve opportunity as they are actually willing to work for a brewer life. The same white tradesman not even close!

The above was pretty much my same experience as a guy whom grew up in a time when being a tradesman was still my best option “and not a bad one” coming from single parent household where mom worked two jobs to survive and collage was not a option.

From what I see it’s as mark saiz. Spoiled pampered Lazy white guys and girls no longer know the meaning of a hard days work. His point about all these years of parents wanting their kin to have a better life along with technology has resulted in what is my oppinion a bunch of lazy useless sad sacks.

The average white guy will put a small buisness out of buisness in very short order. Lucky for me I have always loved hard work. If not I’d be screwed...



This has been an ongoing topic in my shop conversations with locals, customers, and vendors as of late with all the talk of closing the borders and states initiating border checks for people moving from hotspots to less-hot spots. Somehow in all those conversations it always seems to spin back to importing and bringing manufacturing and work back to the US and NA. The brutally hard part with that is how to you motivate a society of people (mainly speaking to the young people) to be willing to to go to work and cash a paycheck (albeit not a kings ransom) making product that the US/NA consumer is flatly unwilling to pay for? I dont see it happening.

I just picked up close to $10K worth of hardwood from our hardwood supplier who has about 3 million board feet of material on the yard at any point in time. A million+ board feet of KD, and 2 million BF+ air drying or in the process of KD/surfacing. Like me he is in a rural area and trying to find young/old/novice/experienced help that is willing to drive a fork truck or do mill yard work, climb the ladder and get promotions and so on, for even a fairly reasonable hourly rate is virtually impossible. You float an add in the paper, 20 apply, 10 walk out instantly, wont take a drug test, 4 more will, and fail, 3 of the remainder make it to the end of the application process, 2 get hired, one shows up on day one, and doest come back on day two.

You can argue that the answer is to pay more but we are talking a decent wage, close to home, no commute time, and a where you can likely work all the hours you want and more... not interested.

Now the mill buys a house up the road, and hires a bunch of legal migrant workers. He says they show up early, want to stay late (even if they are off the clock), work their butts off, and you have to beat them off like flies to get them to go to the house. We are being handed our hats. I spoke with a drywall finisher recently and a brick mason who echo'd the same thing. The migrant drywall crew hangs 120 sheets a day compared to the domestic crew hanging 40. Same deal with bricks.

Sadly I think our parents loving need for their children to have more, and never feel pain or have to suffer, has crippled our workforce. We are simply being outworked.

[Roger Feeley]

When we got into a trade war with China, there was a report on NPR about some businessman who figured it was a good time to bring his manufacturing back to the US so he could avoid the tariffs. He was dismayed to find that the machinery he would need to make his widgets are made in China. That concerned him because support would have to come from China as would parts, etc.

I think we have a long way to go.

So who do I blame? Harvard MBAs.
Another report on NPR some time ago talked about MBA's back in the '70s classifying businesses as dogs, cows, and stars.

Dogs are businesses that don't make money and never will.

Cows are businesses that make plenty of money but don't show a lot of growth potential. These were things like appliances and TVs.

Stars are the businesses that are sexy new things and show tremendous growth potential. Hi tech. nuff said.

The MBA's said liquidate the dogs, outsource or sell off the cows overseas and plow money into the stars. Of course they also raided the 'overfunded' pension funds and other shady stuff. But the core strategy for dogs, cows and stars kind of describes what's been happening.

[Patrick Walsh]

Right and now instead of doing the only responsible reasonable thing and talking about and doing everything we can to not die and or transmit this disease to someone unknowingly we are instead “some of us” preoccupied thinking about,planing for what stocks will be “hot” after this.

Or going “La la la I can’t hear you” and going to work instead cuz society has convinced us it’s more important than doing the right thing.

Freaking MBA’s.

Nothin I hate more than money than those whom make everything about it forcing this whole clown card down the same road..

[Mark Bolton]

preoccupied thinking about,planing for what stocks will be “hot” after this.

Unfortunately those are the sheeple that keep the system alive squwallering along with the single digit gains while the quadrillionaires sail along on their $800 million dollar yachts that account for .05% of their net worth.

[Jon Grider]

Hope you had a pleasant walk with your dog Lowell. Probably didn't realize that taking your dog out to pizz would get folks so angry.
I think I'm gonna take a walk in the backyard that I worked my tail off to pay for with a working stiffs wage that was about 12K below the US average income for 40+ years and enjoy the sunshine while trying to avoid getting my white skin sunburned. And I'll feel grateful to my employer who rewarded my hard work while they enjoy their boat on the lake and I'll not feel the least bit of jealousy or resentment. Then I'm going to check in with my brown skinned neighbor while observing social distancing to see if they need anything at the grocery store to save them a trip. Then I'm going to search for my 2" sash brush to paint a window that needs it instead of the 5" brush that I'm holding in my hand because it has such a very broad stroke.

[Mark Bolton]

Hope you had a pleasant walk with your dog Lowell. Probably didn't realize that taking your dog out to pizz would get folks so angry.
I think I'm gonna take a walk in the backyard that I worked my tail off to pay for with a working stiffs wage that was about 12K below the US average income for 40+ years and enjoy the sunshine while trying to avoid getting my white skin sunburned. And I'll feel grateful to my employer who rewarded my hard work while they enjoy their boat on the lake and I'll not feel the least bit of jealousy or resentment. Then I'm going to check in with my brown skinned neighbor while observing social distancing to see if they need anything at the grocery store to save them a trip. Then I'm going to search for my 2" sash brush to paint a window that needs it instead of the 5" brush that I'm holding in my hand because it has such a very broad stroke.

Sadly Jon, this where we would all like to be. Content in our existence, helping our neighbor (regardless of color or creed) and content. Its a sadly fading thing. Whether its because people want more, or the bossman pays less, who knows.

I am a card carrying bleeding-heart. I would hire the homeless dude on the street and take a bath on the endeavor tomorrow if I thought it would help a single human.

This system is way way way out of balance. People in our government (Im pissed at the left) are allowed insider trading deals....

I honestly hope this opens up a can of worms that turns into a beautiful garden.. but forgive my pessimism. Just like the sheep grovelling for their gains that always leave them having to work another five years.. were likely going to see the same BS wash rinse repeat.

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t begrudge money or those with it. I begrudge the system and the sheep that so easily follow the next guy thus forcing us all to adhere to the same dream, the same identity, the same reality.

Yes those whom make everything about money or money the sole focus of their lives the 1% I begrudge. But not all of them “bill gates, warren buffet” no issue with them.

Many a employer I have had has had great financial success and I don’t begrudge it one bit as honestly they are still small fish just trying to survive themself. Most of the time they have worked their tails off also to assure I had mine so it’s not like that. It’s the system we as a whole subscribe to because we are to scared to suffer a little today to reap the reward later.

Yes I’m pretty much a you know what but I can’t say that here..


Hope you had a pleasant walk with your dog Lowell. Probably didn't realize that taking your dog out to pizz would get folks so angry.
I think I'm gonna take a walk in the backyard that I worked my tail off to pay for with a working stiffs wage that was about 12K below the US average income for 40+ years and enjoy the sunshine while trying to avoid getting my white skin sunburned. And I'll feel grateful to my employer who rewarded my hard work while they enjoy their boat on the lake and I'll not feel the least bit of jealousy or resentment. Then I'm going to check in with my brown skinned neighbor while observing social distancing to see if they need anything at the grocery store to save them a trip. Then I'm going to search for my 2" sash brush to paint a window that needs it instead of the 5" brush that I'm holding in my hand because it has such a very broad stroke.

[Jim Koepke]

And they felt the same way about me as their lazy asses were all “merca” build a wall and you a dam snowflake communist..

My 'lazy' coworkers always wanted me to slow down out of fear management would expect the same from everyone.

My reply was, "don't worry, they already know the difference."

jtk

[Patrick Walsh]

Jim,

Wow so you actually know exactly what I’m talking about.

Yes my hard work was always a threat to these guys.

My hard work was never intended to be so just what I do.

Also worth the understanding if the boss doesn’t make money there is untimely no job to be had. I have moved on from so many bad situations in the trades with lifers just hunkered down looking for a ride on the gravy train. Most cases a shirt number of years later and those business are “poof” time vaporized.


My 'lazy' coworkers always wanted me to slow down out of fear management would expect the same from everyone.

My reply was, "don't worry, they already know the difference."

jtk

[Edwin Santos]

So who do I blame? Harvard MBAs.
Another report on NPR some time ago talked about MBA's back in the '70s classifying businesses as dogs, cows, and stars.



Not so original. They lifted that general concept from Pink Floyd's Animals and applied it to business, which would probably make Roger Waters want to throw up.
Although Pink Floyd lifted the idea from George Orwell, although not before Bob Dylan did the same.

Talk about six degrees of separation. Who would have thought we could connect Lowell's dog and trash can to Pink Floyd.

[Patrick Walsh]

But we can and thank god as connecting anything to Pink Floyd is totally worth it.


Not so original. They lifted that general concept from Pink Floyd's Animals and applied it to business, which would probably make Roger Waters want to throw up.
Although Pink Floyd lifted the idea from George Orwell, although not before Bob Dylan did the same.

Talk about six degrees of separation. Who would have thought we could connect Lowell's dog and trash can to Pink Floyd.

[Mel Fulks]

Most of the people who leave WV because they think other places are better come back. WV has had lots of Fed aid. The old
senate guy of years back once sent every penny allocated for ALL of the US high ways for a whole year to WV. My
experience with friends who moved from anywhere to help some family situation elsewhere is they made themselves
happy. The ones who moved to make themselves happy, failed.

[Jon Grider]

Mark and Patrick,
Our system has flaws, there are injustices, money begets money,many politicians are corrupt, the healthcare system is slanted, people many times suck. But as faulty as our system is, I can't think of any other country I'd rather live in. I share some of the same views as you, there are many things that could be better in the USA. But, there must be some good things here to attract so many people who want our way of life. Many of those people come from much worse places, some from socialist countries. The bottom line to me is there is no perfect governmental system because there are no perfect people.

[Patrick Walsh]

Correct I do agree.

But I’m not sold on America being the greatest country. Their are plenty others equally as good. But that’s not me badmouthing America either.

I do agree with you.

I do however feel complacently is toxic and these conversations will stimulate outrage anger and cause many to turn their backs. But it will also encourage others whom might feel the same to know they are not alone. I suspect many of these Poole keep it zipped as they know these are no popular opinions and this is the internet and whom knows who is reading and the potential personal consequence going down the road a as pretending who knows who is reading. Employers yada yada, me personally I refuse to go through life pretending for anyone sake myself included to be one bit anything I am not. Sure it has come at a price but one I can burden at the end of the day.

I’ll curb this crap professionally when it’s called for “as I also have to survive also” but if a employer Sherlocks me out online and wants to part ways with me as a result or not hire me so be it as I wouldn't last long working for them anyway.

I made the decision long ago, or rather came to the realization that if I made my life about the almighty dollar or wasn’t 100% hi set to whom I was fully knowing I’m not like all,the others I wasn’t gonna make it to the end of this thing..




Mark and Patrick,
Our system has flaws, there are injustices, money begets money,many politicians are corrupt, the healthcare system is slanted, people many times . But as faulty as our system is, I can't think of any other country I'd rather live in. I share some of the same views as you, there are many things that could be better in the USA. But, there must be some good things here to attract so many people who want our way of life. Many of those people come from much worse places, some from socialist countries. The bottom line to me is there is no perfect governmental system because there are no perfect people.

[David E. Hutchins]

Five years ago I was still working for a high end residential custom home builder as a carpenter.

I had to find another way simply based on my surroundings. The dynamic was this, a bunch of fat bald old white guys milking the clock pissed at where they landed in life based on the decisions they made when they were young. As a result sinking the business of every employer they had ever had. This was contrast by a equally sized and growing workforce of highly skilled immigrants that busted ass and where happy to do so. The white guys all the while bitching about their jobs bing stolen build a wall yada yada.

Made me sick and ultimately was painful enough to motivate me to find a way out. It also made me hate white guys and have the utmost respect for our immigrants. Whenever I would bump shoulder on a job site with a hard working immigrant with a smile on his face and good attitude “you can see this immediately in someone’s eyes and smile” I would instantly want to be his friend. A white guy with a chip on his shoulder that clearly doesn’t know the meaning of hard work and I just want to puke throw my hands in the air and tell the world how great us Americans have become. It became more work than “a immigrants day of hard work” to spend any amount of hours with these type people never mind 40-60 a week. And they felt the same way about me as their lazy asses were all “merca” build a wall and you a dam snowflake communist..

I have been working in the trades on and off since 1992. I can remember as teenager painting houses summers “in my area” very very nice houses. But being I was painting them clearly I was of a different demographic. The skilled workers that I marveled at in those days as I shamefully swing a paint brush where all white guys most later in their years. Now 20 plus years later those highly skilled workers doing exceptional work are no longer white. They tend to be Hispanic, they work there asses of and are happy to do so as they come from knowing, know what nothing really is and are motivated to do everything they can to not have nothing. Most times if your white on a job site in the Boston area you are the minority. Something I have seen change in my lifetime. And I say good for them as these imagrwnt workers deserve opportunity as they are actually willing to work for a brewer life. The same white tradesman not even close!

The above was pretty much my same experience as a guy whom grew up in a time when being a tradesman was still my best option “and not a bad one” coming from single parent household where mom worked two jobs to survive and collage was not a option.

From what I see it’s as mark saiz. Spoiled pampered Lazy white guys and girls no longer know the meaning of a hard days work. His point about all these years of parents wanting their kin to have a better life along with technology has resulted in what is my oppinion a bunch of lazy useless sad sacks.

The average white guy will put a small buisness out of buisness in very short order. Lucky for me I have always loved hard work. If not I’d be screwed...

This isn't entirely true at all. I work for an high end building/ remodeling company in Massachusetts, have for twenty years. I think this is more of an exaggerated generalization than it is reality. I've worked with more hard working white people than lazy white people. There are lazy workers from everywhere. This screams of white guilt to me. In my experience, lazy or complaining people just don't last on constriction sites, no matter of race. Not saying there are no lazy white workers, I'm just saying in my experience, it's pretty proportional. I work on the north shore and in high end residential construction here, it's still much more white workers. Roofing and landscaping are a different story but that's just my experience.

I live in Gloucester, almost the entire fishing industry here is white workers and those men work hard, thankless jobs. I don't know, I just don't see what you're seeing.

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm,

Well here in the greater Boston and the Metrowest area it is exactly what I have seen.

I’m in way exploiting or exaggerating my experience.

I am glad to hear so close to home your experience is different.

But mine has not been.

And my point was not that there are no longer white guys as there are plenty. I know first hand in my neck of the woods many companies will only hire white guys as the affluent clients don’t want immigrants around. True I’m not making that up, it has been said to me just that way right from the horses mouth more than once. My point is those white guys tend to be looking for a meal ticket. Not all but in my experience proportionally the majority. Further the immigrant workers always seem to be busy and the level of work they are producing very high.

Just my experience. Maybe my expectation of hard work is more I line with that of someone fighting to survive than some guy that made poor choice after poor choice now have to do that they have to do as it the only choice they have left.

I know I know there are plenty out there doing this work because they want to. I have worked with or shoulder to shoulder with such guys on those projects. But those contractors are catering to the 1% building mansions for Craft Brady Gates Buffet and the the like. And then even then I actually see what I’m exposing going on there more than 20 years ago.



This isn't entirely true at all. I work for an high end building/ remodeling company in Massachusetts, have for twenty years. I think this is more of an exaggerated generalization than it is reality. I've worked with more hard working white people than lazy white people. There are lazy workers from everywhere. This screams of white guilt to me. In my experience, lazy or complaining people just don't last on constriction sites, no matter of race. Not saying there are no lazy white workers, I'm just saying in my experience, it's pretty proportional. I work on the north shore and in high end residential construction here, it's still much more white workers. Roofing and landscaping are a different story but that's just my experience.

I live in Gloucester, almost the entire fishing industry here is white workers and those men work hard, thankless jobs. I don't know, I just don't see what you're seeing.

[Mark Bolton]

This isn't entirely true at all. I work for an high end building/ remodeling company in Massachusetts, have for twenty years. I think this is more of an exaggerated generalization than it is reality. I've worked with more hard working white people than lazy white people. There are lazy workers from everywhere. This screams of white guilt to me. In my experience, lazy or complaining people just don't last on constriction sites, no matter of race. Not saying there are no lazy white workers, I'm just saying in my experience, it's pretty proportional. I work on the north shore and in high end residential construction here, it's still much more white workers. Roofing and landscaping are a different story but that's just my experience.

I live in Gloucester, almost the entire fishing industry here is white workers and those men work hard, thankless jobs. I don't know, I just don't see what you're seeing.

Are you hiring them or "working with them"? If your hiring them then I can understand your point. If your "working with them" you are in a deferred state of delusion where a tier below you is doing the hard work and putting a pretty smile on your interaction (as the issuing party of the check).

If your sentiment were overarchingly true, I wouldn't be hearing the same drum beat for years and hearing it louder and louder. We all choose what we want to hear, but again, I'm the first one to be willing to hire the down and out, newly released felon, right on down the line to the individual with a degree in design from RISD...

[Malcolm McLeod]

.... I don't know, I just don't see what you're seeing.

David, you just need proper perspective.;)

Y'all aren't painting with a 6" white-wash brush. You're using a 747 crop duster!

I think people only see what they want to anymore. They just find a 'news' outlet that spoons them endless reinforcement of their perceptions; and there is such 'news' for everyone, no matter the validity.

Almighty dollar? ... or should that be Dollar? I seek relentlessly for Them. I trade Them for food, a roof, transportation, even an education for my children. (...even trade some for WOOD!) Man, am I evil or what!?!

Rich people? All to be decried as well? ...Get the pitchforks; we'll show them and their BIG boats and fancy cars what-for.

Reality? Perhaps no audience for it in this thread, but I get to attend a fund-raiser here and there. I see people being so incredibly generous with their Almighty Dollars it would make many of your heads spin. None named Gates or Buffet; just faces in the crowd to you - wanting to make the world a better place. Shhhh, don't tell anyone, but some are white. And I'd bet a few of my Dollars there's SMC'ers who've directly benefited. (And I'd win 'cuz I've read about your doctor visits.:))

Edit: And to maintain topic, lots of 'em walk their dog!

[David E. Hutchins]

Are you hiring them or "working with them"? If your hiring them then I can understand your point. If your "working with them" you are in a deferred state of delusion where a tier below you is doing the hard work and putting a pretty smile on your interaction (as the issuing party of the check).

If your sentiment were overarchingly true, I wouldn't be hearing the same drum beat for years and hearing it louder and louder. We all choose what we want to hear, but again, I'm the first one to be willing to hire the down and out, newly released felon, right on down the line to the individual with a degree in design from RISD...

I honestly don't care what drum you hear being beaten, I am just sharing what I have seen in my twenty years on the job. I am not delusional at all about it. I'm not talking about sentiment, I'm talking about what I actually see. I have seen and worked with more hard working white people than lazy white people, that's all my point was. There are lazy white workers and there are lazy foreign born workers, just like there are hard working white people and hard working foreign born people.

It's also the sentiment that young people don't want to work but when I do encounter the "chip on their shoulder" workers, they are almost always older workers.

I'm not trying to be combative, maybe it's different where you live, but I'm certainly not delusional about it and I'm not sitting there with a smile while someone else does the hard work for me.

[Patrick Walsh]

David,

I want to make clear in not questioning or doubting your experience.

By sharing mine I’m in no way trying to do strep to yours.

As you said below in the last 20 years it your area it has been your experience. As had mine been I’m not working overtime trying to paint any picture. Homes,y I wouldn’t get so worked up and passed about all this is what I say my experience has been has not directly fueled my fore and shaped my perspective.




I honestly don't care what drum you hear being beaten, I am just sharing what I have seen in my twenty years on the job. I am not delusional at all about it. I'm not talking about sentiment, I'm talking about what I actually see. I have seen and worked with more hard working white people than lazy white people, that's all my point was. There are lazy white workers and there are lazy foreign born workers, just like there are hard working white people and hard working foreign born people.

It's also the sentiment that young people don't want to work but when I do encounter the "chip on their shoulder" workers, they are almost always older workers.

I'm not trying to be combative, maybe it's different where you live, but I'm certainly not delusional about it and I'm not sitting there with a smile while someone else does the hard work for me.

[Kev Williams]

One of my customers said (yelled?) in an email the other day, "WE NEED TO BRING BACK MANUFACTURING IN THIS COUNTRY!!" -- Like with the OP's 'garbage can'. So, I'll cut to the chase: Personally, I get tired of hearing/reading how China and Mexico "stole" all of our manufacturing secrets in order to run us the hell outta business.
While I'm sure that's true to a certain extent, I still have to raise the http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/bs.gif flag to a certain other extent.... as in, why steal something when some geedy 'merican will give it to you for free in order to ultimately pad his own wallet..? I have personally witnessed a friend of mine, who spent countless hours testing and fabricating certain "exclusive" one-of-a-kind 'things', have no less than 3 of these unique items (that I know of) purchased from him, then immediately taken to China, by people I know-!- for the express purpose of having them copy his product and make a few hundred of them to ship back home and sell at an 80% discount. One of these guys sent me an order for 100 "MADE IN USA" labels. I was in the middle of making them when someone else I know who'd been a 'gone to China' victim, got in touch with me and said "you DO know these tags will be going on ___'s parts that ____ had made in China, right?" Gaaahh... Needless to say ____ didn't get his tags.

And off the top of my head, I know of at least 3 other similar instances of this crap, ALL pretty much involving people I know screwing other people I know...

The scary part? I'm just a low-level uneducated untraveled working guy who survives in his own teensy universe, who hardly knows anyone! And yet a good percentage of those I DO know are greedy, unethical thieves who've stolen other people's work and idea's to profit off them via cheap Chinese labor... Now, if little old nothingburger me has seen this much crap going on in such a small sector of business, I can only imagine how much crap is REALLY going on in the BIG world! Ergo, I'm not so quick to blame JUST China, Mexico, etc. for our current state of trade imbalances...

Just sayin'... ;)

[Wade Lippman]

It is very simple.
Things are made in Mexico or China because it is cheaper to do it there.
If we brought it back to the US, it would have to go up in price.
And... workers would be necessary to make it.
The only way to get workers would be to take them away from something they are doing now, which produces more value than the new job.
And you would have to pay them more to get them.
So you would be getting very expensive trash cans, and damaging the economy because the companies that should have the workers can't get them.
So, it is a lose/lose. Well, a lose/lose/lose/lose because you would also be damaging the Mexican economy so they can't buy our exports which would damage our economy further.

It all sounds nice as long as you don't understand it.

[Pete Costa]

This thread brought up two thoughts/memories. First, the talk of hardworking immigrants reminded me of my grandfather who came here from Italy to escape the fascists in the1930s Started with nothing and built up a good middle class life through lots of hard work, work he took pride in. I'm pretty sure people back in those days were complaining about immigrants like him taking their jobs. Funny thing about immigrants is that, in general, only the hard working ones take the risk and effort to get here. Those of us born here don't go through that difficult selection process.

Fast forward to this century. I wanted to put a retaining wall in at my house, and was pretty sure I had inherited my grandfather's masonry skills. Ordered a few pallets of stone and went down to the labor pickup point to get some guys to help out. I figured I'd have them do the hard stuff while I explored my artistic abilities at stacking rocks. I asked one guy to dig out a footing trench while I started Building the wall. After about an hour, he had finished the trench and asked if he could help me stack rocks. I was feeling pretty good about what I'd done so far but told him to go ahead on one side while I continued on mine. 15 minutes later I glanced over to check on his work. He'd already built more than I had in the past hour and a quarter, and it made my section look like a bad impression of a rock slide. I went to my section, pulled down all the rocks I'd stacked, and asked him to finish up the wall. I also asked him how he liked his coffee. I count that as one of my better decisions.

[Robert Hazelwood]

When we got into a trade war with China, there was a report on NPR about some businessman who figured it was a good time to bring his manufacturing back to the US so he could avoid the tariffs. He was dismayed to find that the machinery he would need to make his widgets are made in China. That concerned him because support would have to come from China as would parts, etc.

I think we have a long way to go.

So who do I blame? Harvard MBAs.
Another report on NPR some time ago talked about MBA's back in the '70s classifying businesses as dogs, cows, and stars.

Dogs are businesses that don't make money and never will.

Cows are businesses that make plenty of money but don't show a lot of growth potential. These were things like appliances and TVs.

Stars are the businesses that are sexy new things and show tremendous growth potential. Hi tech. nuff said.

The MBA's said liquidate the dogs, outsource or sell off the cows overseas and plow money into the stars. Of course they also raided the 'overfunded' pension funds and other shady stuff. But the core strategy for dogs, cows and stars kind of describes what's been happening.

Good post. I was thinking about this in light of the recent bailouts and economic crash. We used to have a lot of "cows", conservatively run businesses that from a finance guy's perspective were worth less than the sum of their parts. These were the kind of businesses that might have been able to withstand a quarantine shutdown for more than a week or two. Instead we have moved towards total optimization of everything, making everything efficient as possible. Global supply chain, JIT, debt leverage, etc. Efficiency necessarily comes at the expense of resiliency, though it increases stock prices.

A really good book about the US machine tool industry, using Burgmaster as a case study, is https://www.amazon.com/When-machine-stopped-cautionary-industrial/dp/0875842089.

[Robert Hazelwood]

It is very simple.
Things are made in Mexico or China because it is cheaper to do it there.
If we brought it back to the US, it would have to go up in price.
And... workers would be necessary to make it.
The only way to get workers would be to take them away from something they are doing now, which produces more value than the new job.
And you would have to pay them more to get them.
So you would be getting very expensive trash cans, and damaging the economy because the companies that should have the workers can't get them.
So, it is a lose/lose. Well, a lose/lose/lose/lose because you would also be damaging the Mexican economy so they can't buy our exports which would damage our economy further.

It all sounds nice as long as you don't understand it.

What do you think the former manufacturing workers and their descendants (take, for example, the guys who were doing casting and machining for Powermatic in McMinnville or their counterparts working for Delta in Tupelo) are doing now that produces more value? For most the option is to drop out of the workforce or take some crap retail job. I'm sure a few of the most intelligent and enterprising ones could move to a big city and get a "knowledge economy" job manipulating spreadsheets, but over time this just kills the social capital of those towns and you are left with the situation Mark Bolton describes.

Yes you have to pay more for manufactured goods in order to fix this. And you will have to accept that Dollar General will be deprived of some employees who are now making something useful. Somehow we managed this a few decades ago.

I cannot stand this inclination to elevate econ 101 into a religious cargo cult. I blame the spread of 401k's and getting the average white collar worker's primary investment vehicle to be the stock market. Allows them to buy into the asset-stripping of America and motivates them to rationalize throwing the wage classes under the bus as creating more value.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have been thinking quite a bit as I work away in my home sho through this.

Or rather a feeling/serious of thoughts a gut instinct has been overcoming me forcing me to reflect on things I normally just go about ignoring feeling they way out of my hands.

Now I’m not educated nor do I claim to be the authority these are just my thoughts. And no I’m not trying to impose them on anyone.

The thought process may be heightened by all that’s going on in the world right but it’s not a new thought to me. The thought my gut feeling my instinct “again what do I know” is that our government in the United States coupled with our world economy is built much like a uber high efficiency machine. It relies on all its cards being stacked exactly in order all built to a very high tolerance and only able to do this job so long as it tolerance is maintained to very high spec. They have to all be doing exactly thief job, if one part goes the machine can’t do its job. Further much like if a uber high effienct machine was built with a shelf like as trade of for one less productive but that could sustain working with simple easy maintenance from time to time.

I don’t see the system we have subscribed to as humans not just American as sustainable. Imop the whole thing is a giant deck of cards.

I do think us humans “some of us” are pretty smart. So I just don’t get the choices we end up making as a whole.

However if you look at this situation and the vast population of people not adhering to basic requests to shelter in place and scocial distancing. How so many I talk to idea of social distancing greatly varies from day mine. For instance most of my extended family. Grandma still insists on going to the grocery store. She also still insists on her daily walks with friends. Uncles still going to work, till a week ago sending their kids to horseback riding lessons. In the same breath these are the choices they are making they are badmouthing the whole basketball zipp tie thing making comment like “how stupid are people”

In general I have decided that people “well not decided long have felt actually” selfish to their core. Sure we step outside ourself and do altruistic deeds. But at our core it’s self preservation. It has to be or life halts quickly.

My long is none of us thinks our crap stinks, we all fell we are doing our best. But imop best does have a benchmark a bar.

How do I wrap all this together and back to our US economy/world economy to ones perspective that their choice to walk with fiends continue sending children to activities grocery shop when ther are other alternative readily availible. Well I bring it all back around to us being inherently selfish beings.

What else would be the explanation.

And how to I tie that to the conversation above about jobs going abroad or coming home. Again I’m not merca first guy clearly. But we sent those jobs away to grow and feed this machine. It was short sighted foolish selfish and greedy. But some things in this life you just can’t take back and again what do I know but my gut tells me this is one of those things that “poof” the opportunity is gone we missed the mark and now we have to own it.

[michael langman]

I honestly don't care what drum you hear being beaten, I am just sharing what I have seen in my twenty years on the job. I am not delusional at all about it. I'm not talking about sentiment, I'm talking about what I actually see. I have seen and worked with more hard working white people than lazy white people, that's all my point was. There are lazy white workers and there are lazy foreign born workers, just like there are hard working white people and hard working foreign born people.

It's also the sentiment that young people don't want to work but when I do encounter the "chip on their shoulder" workers, they are almost always older workers.

I'm not trying to be combative, maybe it's different where you live, but I'm certainly not delusional about it and I'm not sitting there with a smile while someone else does the hard work for me.


David, I know what you are saying. New Englanders were always known for their hard working ethics.

Years ago a company, American Optical, moved down south from Brattleboro,Vt. to save money. Theyended up moving back after a few years because the workers down south did not know what a good days work meant.

There are good and bad workers everywhere, but there are also areas of the country where workers work.

When I was 18 I traveled out west with a friend. Ended up getting a job in Tyrone Oklahoma as a construction laborer and welders helper. Now I always believed in working my hardest and trying to do a good job. Well I worked alongside some illegal alien, wetbacks as they were called. These were some of the nicest people I had ever met and worked alongside. Rugged and hard working doesn't begin to describe those fellas.
They ended up making me a welders helper because I sure wasn't a laborer and never would be alongside these guys.
One of the Mexicans name was Alvanez, he was over 40 years old. And I watched him chase down a rabbit and catch it by hand in the brush nearby one day while eating my lunch in the shade of 110 degrees . Amazeed does not even describe what I felt at the time.
You should have seen the smile on Alvarez's face walking back with that rabbit.

[Patrick Walsh]

See this put a smile on my face.

These are the experiences I’m talking about. Be they legal illegal whatever I could give a rats. This is America, go ahead give me yeah in years gone past immigrant came in through legal changes through Ellis Island yada yada.

You really think everything was above the table back when you all walked both ways to school in 3’ of snow uphill Lol.... I don’t think so. There have always been crooks and there have always has been Robinhood’s that’s the nature of us humans regardless of demographic origin.

I take more pride in sharing this country with hard working guys like the above story than those whom were raised pampered and or whom have become soft as a result of a system that groomed people such...


David, I know what you are saying. New Englanders were always known for their hard working ethics.

Years ago a company, American Optical, moved down south from Brattleboro,Vt. to save money. Theyended up moving back after a few years because the workers down south did not know what a good days work meant.

There are good and bad workers everywhere, but there are also areas of the country where workers work.

When I was 18 I traveled out west with a friend. Ended up getting a job in Tyrone Oklahoma as a construction laborer and welders helper. Now I always believed in working my hardest and trying to do a good job. Well I worked alongside some illegal alien, wetbacks as they were called. These were some of the nicest people I had ever met and worked alongside. Rugged and hard working doesn't begin to describe those fellas.
They ended up making me a welders helper because I sure wasn't a laborer and never would be alongside these guys.
One of the Mexicans name was Alvanez, he was over 40 years old. And I watched him chase down a rabbit and catch it by hand in the brush nearby one day while eating my lunch in the shade of 110 degrees . Amazeed does not even describe what I felt at the time.
You should have seen the smile on Alvarez's face walking back with that rabbit.

[Mark Bolton]

This thread brought up two thoughts/memories. First, the talk of hardworking immigrants reminded me of my grandfather who came here from Italy to escape the fascists in the1930s Started with nothing and built up a good middle class life through lots of hard work, work he took pride in. I'm pretty sure people back in those days were complaining about immigrants like him taking their jobs. Funny thing about immigrants is that, in general, only the hard working ones take the risk and effort to get here. Those of us born here don't go through that difficult selection process.

Fast forward to this century. I wanted to put a retaining wall in at my house, and was pretty sure I had inherited my grandfather's masonry skills. Ordered a few pallets of stone and went down to the labor pickup point to get some guys to help out. I figured I'd have them do the hard stuff while I explored my artistic abilities at stacking rocks. I asked one guy to dig out a footing trench while I started Building the wall. After about an hour, he had finished the trench and asked if he could help me stack rocks. I was feeling pretty good about what I'd done so far but told him to go ahead on one side while I continued on mine. 15 minutes later I glanced over to check on his work. He'd already built more than I had in the past hour and a quarter, and it made my section look like a bad impression of a rock slide. I went to my section, pulled down all the rocks I'd stacked, and asked him to finish up the wall. I also asked him how he liked his coffee. I count that as one of my better decisions.

This actually made my day.. as I was reading through it I could feel my face and then realized I was giggling. Too funny. Really great post.

[Bob Glenn]

A couple things to add. Bringing back manufacturing to the US wouldn't be all bad. Prices would go up, but hopefully, we would stop buying cheap plastic stuff that now goes into our oceans, waterways and dumps. The greatgrandkids have so many plastic toys, they don't know what they have and don't have. I will all end up polluting our world.

As far work ethic goes, I used to tell new hires that to work here, you had to be worth more than what you cost.

Great thread. Thanks for starting it. We have some soul searching to do.