Dyson designs new ventilator in 10 days

[George Bokros]

Picked this up on another WW forum

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/coronavirus/dyson-designs-ventilator-in-10-days-plans-to-make-15-000-of-them-to-combat-pandemic

Kudos to him.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I am glad to hear about companies making ventilators. Mrs. is a Nurse at the local hospital. Masks and gowns are in such short supply that she is given one set for each potential infectious person she cares for. reusing masks is a danger to her and to other patients. Allegedly 3M is making over 1 million masks per day and another California company is making over 3 million a day. It would be really nice if some were actually delivered to hospitals for use. The hospital has been told everything is on back order by all the medical suppliers. Nurses have started turning in resignations and applying for other jobs because of the shortages. Which creates a strain for the remaining staff. Politicians keep saying fuzzy warm things about getting supplies for the medical workers, it would be nice if someone actually delivered instead of talking about it. I don't know where the logistics have failed, but it would be nice if one of them stepped in and actually did something to free them up.

[Mike Henderson]

I would be concerned about a brand new design for a ventilator, especially by someone who was not experienced with the design of ventilators. I'm sure there are all kind of subtleties in the design and operation of a ventilator and it would take quite a bit of testing to work it all out before you were willing to put it on a human. It seems to me that the best and safest approach is to take existing, proven designs and ramp up production.

Even then, I expect some problems with some of the units from manufacturing defects. When you push a production line you get problems.

Mike

[Ole Anderson]

If I had a loved one dying due to a lack of ventilators, I would rejoice to have someone step in with a new piece of equipment or to split one ventilator for two persons. We need to think how to make things work, not coming up with reasons why they might not work. I just watched a war film about Ford cranking out a B-24 bomber every 55 minutes during WWII. We need that mentality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2zukteYbGQ

[Jim Becker]

I would be concerned about a brand new design for a ventilator, especially by someone who was not experienced with the design of ventilators.

There are generally two kinds of ventilators....simpler designs like the one that Dyson came up with to "assist" with breathing by supplying air passively at low pressure and the more complicated computerized units that are designed for serious life support. A large percentage of the Covid-19 patients who are hospitalized supposedly can benefit from the simpler designs which are faster and easier to product. Dyson was actually in a good position to do this because they have extensive experience, research and IP around moving air efficiently with small devices. What they are doing should generally be extremely helpful in support of patients who just need some assistance and can be served by the simpler method. It does sound like their focus is primarily on the UK, however.

[Mike Henderson]

There are generally two kinds of ventilators....simpler designs like the one that Dyson came up with to "assist" with breathing by supplying air passively at low pressure and the more complicated computerized units that are designed for serious life support. A large percentage of the Covid-19 patients who are hospitalized supposedly can benefit from the simpler designs which are faster and easier to product. Dyson was actually in a good position to do this because they have extensive experience, research and IP around moving air efficiently with small devices. What they are doing should generally be extremely helpful in support of patients who just need some assistance and can be served by the simpler method. It does sound like their focus is primarily on the UK, however.

That distinction was not covered in the article posted. When I think of a ventilator, I think of intubating someone. From experience with a loved one who was intubated, I know that those ventilators are complex - and they're controlled by software.

The problem with any device that is used on humans is to make sure that it does not harm. That is, it would be tragic if the device caused death that would not have occurred without the device.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

Yes, for full intubation, the "more complicated" computerized ventilator is required. You may notice that many of the folks posting on social media from their hospital beds are not intubated and are equipped with cannula at the nose that provides positive air pressure. Some may be on O2, but others are just getting air assist. There's a great need for both types.

I absolutely agree with the hope for "do no harm", however.

[Mike Henderson]

Yes, for full intubation, the "more complicated" computerized ventilator is required. You may notice that many of the folks posting on social media from their hospital beds are not intubated and are equipped with cannula at the nose that provides positive air pressure. Some may be on O2, but others are just getting air assist. There's a great need for both types.

I absolutely agree with the hope for "do no harm", however.
If all the patient has is a cannula there’s no ventilation. Oxygen to a cannula is controlled by a simple regulator. Ventilation is when the device forces air into and out of the lungs. You absolutely cannot do that with a cannula. In fact, it's difficult to do with anything "external" (not intubated). They do have devices that work with a tight fitting external mask but those do not work as well as intubation.

In any case, I think when doctors speak of a ventilator they are talking about intubation.

Those other devices should be called breathing assist.

Mike

[And just some additional information: Being on an intubated ventilator is extremely uncomfortable. And every few hours a nurse comes by and inserts a vacuum hose down the intubation tube to vacuum out fluid - and that's even more uncomfortable (painful). It's no fun being conscious on a ventilator and the doctors have said that they want intubated people conscious.]

[Mark Hennebury]

"Any port in a storm"

[Stan Calow]

When people talk about GM and Ford gearing up to make ventilators, I keep thinking that the mechanical parts will be simple to manufacturer, but the electronics and control systems will be nearly impossible to generate quickly, especially with China supplying most of our electronics.

[Mike Henderson]

"Any port in a storm"

In desperate times there are people who sell "hope", false hope. It's important that we question and make sure that what's being offered is what's actually needed and that it really helps people - not just a placebo effect.

Mike

[Edwin Santos]

There are generally two kinds of ventilators....simpler designs like the one that Dyson came up with to "assist" with breathing by supplying air passively at low pressure and the more complicated computerized units that are designed for serious life support. A large percentage of the Covid-19 patients who are hospitalized supposedly can benefit from the simpler designs which are faster and easier to product. Dyson was actually in a good position to do this because they have extensive experience, research and IP around moving air efficiently with small devices. What they are doing should generally be extremely helpful in support of patients who just need some assistance and can be served by the simpler method. It does sound like their focus is primarily on the UK, however.

Could you point me to your source for this information? Particularly the first part?
Thanks

[Edwin Santos]

"Any port in a storm"

Precisely.
This is a crisis, as in all hands on deck emergency. Nothing is going to come in the neat packages we would like.
I'm not sure there has been a full acceptance of the degree of gravity and the speed at which it is accelerating.

[Jerome Stanek]

I would hope he would make it open source and give out the plans to companies that could also make them. Sort of like what happened in world war II

[Ronald Blue]

I have no idea whether Dyson's system is viable or not. A quick googling on ventilators appears to only refer to one type as Mike alluded to. You are intubated. A CPAP machine is not a ventilator or anything like that. It takes more than an air flow to be a ventilator. It also removes the carbon dioxide. I was told that it's possible to use the machine that anesthesiologists use during surgery with a small modification as a ventilator. I have no idea if this is possible. I also heard it said by a Boston hospital that in a worst case scenario that they could put a tee in line and use one machine on two patients. That is less than ideal I am sure but desparate times require desparate measures.

[Brian Holcombe]

I would be concerned about a brand new design for a ventilator, especially by someone who was not experienced with the design of ventilators. I'm sure there are all kind of subtleties in the design and operation of a ventilator and it would take quite a bit of testing to work it all out before you were willing to put it on a human. It seems to me that the best and safest approach is to take existing, proven designs and ramp up production.

Even then, I expect some problems with some of the units from manufacturing defects. When you push a production line you get problems.

Mike

Mike,

Perhaps they redesigned in effort to reduce the cost or time of creating such a unit. I certainly agree with you but when people are in desperate need what is ideal is going to become the adversary of what is possible.

[Mark Hennebury]

I doubt anyone would disagree with you on the placebo thing.

I also sincerely doubt that the British government, Dysan, the medical authorities are suggesting that they provide patients with equipment that doesn't work.
I feel quite confident that whatever is designed will be tested, and approved.
Just maybe some equipment, though rapidly designed during a crisis, may provide help at some level, to patients in need, and who would otherwise have no equipment available to them.

Many of the great inventions and developments have been developed under pressure of crisis.
It pushes people to think outside the box, it pushes people to get results, it pushes people to use what's available.


In desperate times there are people who sell "hope", false hope. It's important that we question and make sure that what's being offered is what's actually needed and that it really helps people - not just a placebo effect.

Mike

[Ronald Blue]

Many of the great inventions and developments have been developed under pressure of crisis.
It pushes people to think outside the box, it pushes people to get results, it pushes people to use what's available.[/QUOTE]


But this isn't a new invention. Is Dyson innovative? No question about it. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement on the current design. It seems like there are so many fail-safes that a system would need that throwing one together on the cad program and having a reliable and safe working model are distant objectives. I hope they did nail it here. But getting into production from a prototype has it's own challenges. Are these simple "iron lungs" with no technology? If so that could work. Sometimes technology isn't the critical need and they have other means in which to monitor vitals independently. Kudos to them for making the effort. It remains to be seen how this develops.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Yeah we should hold up use and run ten years of studies to see if any defects arise? The people who are dying because they can't breathe don't care. Things have gotten so desperate, the CDC has issued guidelines for what can be used when ventilators are not available. The C-pap is on the list for a last resort.

[Edwin Santos]

The C-pap is on the list for a last resort.

Well here's the very last resort. It's the original manual form of ventilation, commonly called an Ambu bag. These are most famously used on the battlefield or emergency situations like paramedics that might not have better equipment on board. To ventilate a patient in respiratory failure for 24 hours, it would require a person standing there pumping the bag for 24 hours. No control over tidal volume and it is very easy to hyperventilate the patient. Cost is about $20. About as primitive as it gets.

I think I heard Gov. Cuomo say New York State just ordered 20,000 of them, to have on hand as a last resort.

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[Jerome Stanek]

Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it

[Edwin Santos]

Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it

Well if you did as you're describing, and you had the ability to adjust the tidal volume, and you could independently adjust the inspiratory and expiratory pressure, and you could filter out CO2 from the process, and you could adjust the concentration and flow rate of the oxygen the person was receiving (FI02), then......
you would basically have created a ventilator.

A ventilator is a life support device, fairly complicated. I've never taken one apart, but I'd estimate it is made from hundreds of parts. It is not a device that can be made in someone's garage on a DIY basis, and in fact, I have wondered how on earth you could just instruct a car manufacturer to make one and they would be able to do so expediently.

To more directly answer your legitimate question, an Ambu bag is basically a replacement for mouth to mouth resuscitation. It does have the ability to connect a tank of oxygen to it via a port, but it is such a manual device that using it for any length of time would not really be practical. If a patient were going into distress you could use one to buy some precious time though. They are really intended only for emergencies, codes, field situations.

Another thing I have not heard discussed in the mainstream is how you would supply oxygen to a ventilator being used in a temporary hospital situation where there is no piped in bulk oxygen on site. I would guess they will have to rig up some type of manifold with a set of bulk or mini bulk oxygen tanks? To be used properly, a ventilator must have an O2 source, and an alarm system that sounds if the O2 runs low or (god forbid) runs out. Of course if it did run out the patient would still be getting some oxygen at a room air level, but if they were truly in respiratory failure, it would not be enough. I would guess that industrial medical med gas suppliers like Airgas and Air Liquide are under a lot of pressure to deliver ad hoc systems and oxygen to NY right now.

[Mike Henderson]

A ventilator is a life support device, fairly complicated. I've never taken one apart, but I'd estimate it is made from hundreds of parts. It is not a device that can be made in someone's garage on a DIY basis, and in fact, I have wondered how on earth you could just instruct a car manufacturer to make one and they would be able to do so expediently.

My understanding of the GM situation is that they're going to build the existing Ventec unit. Ventec brings a proven successful design and GM provides the logistic and production capability.

I assume they're going to contract out the production of the circuit boards. Bringing in pick and place machines, and training auto workers to operate them, would take a lot of time. There are people who are set up to produce circuit boards on contract and that seems a better approach. You could even use Asian board makers - I'm sure there are ways to disinfect boards to make sure they are not harboring any virus.

Ventec has already ramped up production about as much as they can in their facility. They need help to really turn out a volume in a short time.

Mike

[I believe that others who have committed to producing ventilators in volume are partnering with existing ventilator makers to ramp up production. They are not starting from scratch with a new design.]

[Stan Calow]

Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it I cant produce the reference article I read this in, but I think that simplified ventilators that Dyson and others are working on are based on this idea.

[Thomas L Carpenter]

The Dyson article didn't mention if he was going to make the design available to all or if he patented it.

[Mike Henderson]

Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it

They make "external" ventilators that essentially do that. It consists of a mask that covers the nose and mouth and fits tightly against the face. It cycles between pressures to force oxygen into the lungs and uses the collapse of the chest to force the air out. My wife was on one of those but eventually they intubated her. When I asked why, I was told that the external units do not do as good of a job as the intubated units.

I expect that even these units have a level of complexity to them. If you wanted to produce a bunch of them, the best thing would be to take an existing design and ramp up production.

Mike

[Edwin Santos]

Even if someone figures out an expedient way to produce millions of ventilators, has anyone figured out where to source the staff to administer them?
We're talking about respiratory therapists or nurses or a combination of the two. These devices don't run themselves.

In my state, the Department of Health services says they have a plan to increase hospital bed capacity by 50%. What the director says they don't have is a plan for how to staff the increased capacity.

[Jim Koepke]

Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury
"Any port in a storm"



That is less than ideal I am sure but desparate times require desparate measures.

Never let the desire for the perfect get in the way of what needs being done good enough right now.


I assume they're going to contract out the production of the circuit boards. Bringing in pick and place machines, and training auto workers to operate them, would take a lot of time.

Who makes the circuit boards GM currently uses in their vehicles?

Their vehicles currently have circuit boards behind the dash and in onboard computers.

They may have a problem making the face plates and enclosures for these devices.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Here's a story (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage) about the government's attempt to get a company to build low cost ventilators.

Mike

[Mark Hennebury]

That is about Corporate greed, Corporate law, Soulless CEO's, Government irresponsibility, bad management, lack of accountability etc. in short, the business of business, not the business of design and production.
It is not news to hear that the government throws your money away and that big corporation will happily take it.

And It has nothing to do with the ability of a motivated company to design and build a high quality working ventilator at a reasonable cost.

Keep an eye on Dyson.


Here's a story (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage) about the government's attempt to get a company to build low cost ventilators.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Not all corporate "greed". Some of the states have leaders who can't find their ventilators, NOT their personal ones .....
just the ones the little people might need. Didn't mean to frighten you !

[Jim Becker]

What irks me about the company in the article is that they were able to get out of a contract. Any one of use would be hard pressed to accomplish that in our own worlds. But as always...Wall Street and short term financials win over morality.

[Mike Henderson]

Here's a story (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-ventilator-solution-army-veterans-capitalism-took-over) about a $100 ventilator.

Mike

[Ronald Blue]

Yeah we should hold up use and run ten years of studies to see if any defects arise? The people who are dying because they can't breathe don't care. Things have gotten so desperate, the CDC has issued guidelines for what can be used when ventilators are not available. The C-pap is on the list for a last resort.

Just use a compressed air hose. What could possibly go wrong? You go first.

[Jim Becker]

Here's a story (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-ventilator-solution-army-veterans-capitalism-took-over) about a $100 ventilator.

Mike

There's an article online at CNN Business about Mercedes F1 working to repurpose CPAP machines to assist with non-critical Covid-19 patients who need mild assistance with breathing.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/tech/mercedes-f1-breathing-aid-coronavirus/index.html

[Mark Hennebury]

https://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/manufacturing/thornhill-medical-to-deliver-500-mobile-ventilator-systems-250148/

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Thornhill Medical’s MOVES SLC unit is a compact portable, self-contained device that provides all of the crucial functions available in a modern intensive care unit (ICU), according to the firm. It integrates the functions of a ventilator that generates its own oxygen from the air, a full suite of critical care monitors, and suction — all able to run on battery power. PHOTO: Thornhill Medical

[Mark Hennebury]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/video/news/small-company-in-texas-town-could-have-new-solution-to-ventilator-shortage/vi-BB121Euy?ocid=spartandhp


Small company in Texas town could have new solution to ventilator shortage

[Mark Hennebury]

Elon Musk is Shipping Free Ventilators to Hospitals Worldwide


https://futurism.com/the-byte/elon-musk-shipping-free-ventilators-hospitals-worldwide?mc_cid=23820fb2b3&utm_term=0_03cd0a26cd-23820fb2b3-246472001&utm_medium=email&mc_eid=394bb28077&utm_source=The%20Future%20Is&utm_campaign=23820fb2b3-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_01_08_36 (https://futurism.com/the-byte/elon-musk-shipping-free-ventilators-hospitals-worldwide?mc_cid=23820fb2b3&utm_term=0_03cd0a26cd-23820fb2b3-246472001&utm_medium=email&mc_eid=394bb28077&utm_source=The%20Future%20Is&utm_campaign=23820fb2b3-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_01_08_36)

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

There are generally two kinds of ventilators....simpler designs like the one that Dyson came up with to "assist" with breathing by supplying air passively at low pressure and the more complicated computerized units that are designed for serious life support. A large percentage of the Covid-19 patients who are hospitalized supposedly can benefit from the simpler designs which are faster and easier to product.

I am sorry Jim, but this sentence absolutely not correct. I am telling this as a professional, who is taking care of COVID 19 patients and other patients too.

Ed.

[Jim Becker]

I will accept and acknowledge I was incorrect. I was coming down with the damn thing at about the same time...

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

Jim, sorry to hear that. I wish you a full recovery.
Ed.

I will accept and acknowledge I was incorrect. I was coming down with the damn thing at about the same time...

[George Bokros]

I will accept and acknowledge I was incorrect. I was coming down with the damn thing at about the same time...

Sorry to hear. Wishing you a speedy and full recovery.

[Bill Jobe]

Here's something that a few of you may find interesting.

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/new-israeli-invention-used-to-treat-coronavirus-victims-in-china-617530

[Steve Jenkins]

I will accept and acknowledge I was incorrect. I was coming down with the damn thing at about the same time...

So sorry to hear that Jim. Hang in there and be one of the many that recovers quickly.