End grain and my LN 60 1/2 R block plane, and other troubles..warning, long read...

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I have not postet for a while. Been away from woodworking due to having to little kids.

Now im back in a new house and im in the process of setting up my workshop. Im lucky to have a heated floor and about 40 M2.

So Im going to build the English Workbench aka Nicholson bench.
But before I do that im building some saw horses, Im building them timber frame style so I can practice my joining skills, which are at the moment almost not excisting.

Yesterday I cut the pre-planed 3x3" pine boards I bought for the saw horses. Im still learning to cut straight to a line, so the ends needed a bit of clean up.

Out comes my LN 60 1/2 R block plane with A2 iron, which I bought years ago, but only rarely used.

I thought it was perfect for endgrain..... No magic... OK, maybe its not sharp enough. Checked the back of the iron and I can see a small...What I now know was a wear bevel (because I googled it)....what to do?? Google google google.... The fast solution was using the ruler trick. I could not bare the thought of flattening that back every time I had to sharpen it.
Then I sharpened the bevel at 25 degrees because thats the way it comes from the factory and it must be right then. The edge kept chipping, just tiny little chips. I used my almost never used Spydercos, which I had for years. I remember it almost took ages to flatten them on my DMT lapping plate, which in the end killed it...that raised the price of these spydercos considerbly. Im using them dry because I heard that was the way to use them, but I could see little metal flakes getting embedded in the stone, so I might have done that wrong too...
nevertheless, edge chipping...google google google....so now it turns out that A2 is not suitable of a 25 degrees bevel....it should be 30 or even more...

Now im really confused If I sharpen to 30 degrees, the angle of attack is now 42 degrees, almost the same as a normal pitch...then I guess I could just as well try to use a no 4 for the end grain or what ??

Am I missing a point ?

[Warren Mickley]

A #4 plane is better for this because you can use both hands and you are not doing so much with your fingers. You can get a little block plane to work but your hands will get tired much faster.

[Andrew Hughes]

Isn’t the block plane bevel up and the no 4 bevel down. What ever plane gets the job done to your satisfaction is right.
Conifers can be tricky because of how the fibers are soft hard soft hard.
Good Luck

[Prashun Patel]

I sharpen my a2s at 25 and don’t have an issue. Has the blade not been sharpened many times?

[Jim Koepke]

My LN #62 Low Angle Jack Plane is used for shooting. With a 25º bevel the blade does tend to chip more than my old Stanley Low Angle Block Planes with O1 steel blades.

My current plan is to purchase a Lee Valley Left Hand Shooting Plane. It currently shows as out of stock. Haven't figured out whether it will be with an O1 or PMv11 blade. Maybe buy a spare blade of the other material.

Another thought is about using a rabbet plane for shooting end grain. My rabbet planes tend to get used only for the purpose for which they were made. This saves the blade in the long run. My LN LA Block isn't used as often for end grain as my Stanley LA Blocks.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Hone a 25* bevel with maybe a tiny secondary bevel. Wet the end grain with mineral spirits or alcohol. Take slicing cuts with the plane. You’ll be fine.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Something weird is going on if the blade keeps chipping during sharpening. I've had A2 chip in use plenty of times but it sharpens well enough. I finish A2 on a Spyderco UF and I'm pretty sure I've used diamond stones before, so normal A2 should handle those stones.

I sharpen my 60-1/2 at 25 degrees, it holds up ok for me. Eventually it will accumulate enough microchips that I have to resharpen.

But a sharp #4 will do this job as well.

[lowell holmes]

I sometimes use a rasp and sandpaper on end grain.

[David Eisenhauer]

I would use the #4. Block planes are small and tiring to hold. It is my understanding that A2 likes a 30* bevel and tends to chip at lower angles. I am not a Spyderco using guy, but would not a spritz of (slightly) soapy water be better than a dry stone? maybe a Spyderco guy will follow this up. As they say, a sharp edge fixes nearly everything.

[Graham Haydon]

Use a #4. If you want better life from A2 I've read that 35deg is an option. I have next to no experience with A2, I have tried it but didn't really like it. Derek has done a lot with just about every steel and hopefully he could share his view.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Is it safe to conclude that using an A2 iron in an low angle plane is foolish if the goal is to plane end grain with a low angle of attack ?

[Robert Hazelwood]

Is it safe to conclude that using an A2 iron in an low angle plane is foolish if the goal is to plane end grain with a low angle of attack ?

No. Lots of people do it.

Like I said, there is something weird going on with your iron.

[Mike Kreinhop]

Is it safe to conclude that using an A2 iron in an low angle plane is foolish if the goal is to plane end grain with a low angle of attack ?

I don't think that is a safe conclusion, but then I am only a beginner at this. All of my BU and BD planes have the A2 blade, and I have no problem taking very fine shavings from end grain walnut or maple with my 60-1/2 block plane.

I make sure my plane iron is as flat as I can get it using a 800-grit water stone. I use a Sharpie permanent marker to put a grid pattern on the back of the iron When the grid is uniformly removed, the back is flat. Fortunately, all of my LN plane irons are flat from the factory, so I'm really only removing the factory grinding marks and adding my own from the water stone. This is a personal choice and others might claim this is a waste of time, but I'm satisfied with the results and don't think I will ever have to be worried about it again.

I use the Tormek to put a 25-degree primary hollow bevel on the front. Then I use the 800-grit water stone to put a 33-degree secondary bevel and also establish a slight camber. As soon as I have a continuous wire edge on the blade, I use the 10,000-grit stone to create a 35-degree polished edge. The final step is the Ruler Trick on the back using the 10,000-grit stone.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Yesterday I cut the pre-planed 3x3" pine boards I bought for the saw horses. Im still learning to cut straight to a line, so the ends needed a bit of clean up.



I would practice my saw skills. I spent a lot of time early on trying to do saw stuff with a plane, chisel stuff with a plane, etc. Your handsaws can cut a straight enough line to do the joinery on a sawbench, and the sooner you get your skills to the point where you can make them do that the less frustrated you will be.

[Derek Cohen]

Is it safe to conclude that using an A2 iron in an low angle plane is foolish if the goal is to plane end grain with a low angle of attack ?

.... Then I sharpened the bevel at 25 degrees because thats the way it comes from the factory and it must be right then. The edge kept chipping, just tiny little chips. I used my almost never used Spydercos, which I had for years. I remember it almost took ages to flatten them on my DMT lapping plate, which in the end killed it...that raised the price of these spydercos considerbly. Im using them dry because I heard that was the way to use them, but I could see little metal flakes getting embedded in the stone, so I might have done that wrong too...

Lasse, the LN rebate block plane is a nice plane. But I do not use it for end grain. I do not see it as an alternative to a low angle block plane. The mouth is wide, and it is different to set a fine projection. Where mine gets use is across the grain when fine tuning drawer cases ...

https://i.postimg.cc/3wpMXfg2/16a.jpg

The blade is A2 and has a 25 degree bevel.

That said, I have used A2 blades with 25 degree bevels in shooting planes for a very long time, and never experienced any problems. I have both LN and Veritas low angle block planes, and they are both good in this respect. A2 is just fine at 25 degrees.

So why is yours not working? I am not sure, but I suspect it may lie with the sharpening. You say that you used the Ruler Trick. I wonder what angle that created. A true RT creates a bevel about 1/3 of a degree. It should not impact on the performance of a block plane. How did you create yours? With a thin, steel ruler, or eye ball it?

Regards the Spydercos, I never use them dry. All honing media need some liquid to carry away the swarf, otherwise the surface clogs up, and stop cutting. I use soapy water, or water on mine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Is it safe to conclude that using an A2 iron in an low angle plane is foolish if the goal is to plane end grain with a low angle of attack ?

In 1976 I was planing with a block plane, hard maple end grain maybe two inches thick, and my fingers were cramping. I thought "something is not right here". I switched to a bench plane and have not used a block plane for anything since. I can see that for a carpenter it is nice to have something small on your belt, but for a woodworker that works at a bench it is clumsy.

In 1982 I altered a Bailey bench plane from 45 to 42 degrees. There is a very small improvement for end grain, hardly noticeable. Much more important than angle is the quality of your iron and how sharp it is. I am not a fan of A2 steel. I have been to more than a dozen Woodworking in America and Lie Nielsen events and have tried many tools with A2 irons of various manufacturers. None of them, including planes that cost thousands gave the quality of a Stanley iron from 1915. I could be just the skill of the people doing the sharpening.

Is it safe to make your conclusion? Let us just say it is not unreasonable.

[Jim Koepke]

Out comes my LN 60 1/2 R block plane with A2 iron, which I bought years ago, but only rarely used.

My feelings toward A2 is along are similar to Warren's. It did seem to chip less after a number of sharpenings. It seems some chipping may be due to the forces of impact.

As Derek mentioned, a low angle rabbet plane isn't a good substitute for a low angle block plane.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

I often use a shoulder plane to trim end grain which is essentially what they're designed for. A relatively large amount of mass in a small area is helpful. Monitor progress with a straight edge, starting of course with high spots. Most projects, barring reproductions from certain periods, are typically designed to show little to no end grain so what we're usually doing is trimming for square. For wide workpieces, I use a No. 6 or 7. A No. 4 seems to be a bit in no-man's land to me for this job, but it's not worth a debate. Use what works for you.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I suspect sharpening is at least one issue. At the moment im caught between 3 sharpening regimes. Yours with spydercos and hollow grind, David W´s with oilstones and Rob cosmans. Im mixing everything up with a honing guide... So many things I need to get a hold on in order to improve. I think my spydercos are now a little glogged due to not using water, so they need to be dressed on my already worn out DMT lapping plate. it will take ages if its possible at all. I also need to figure out if I should stay with honing guide for a while and wait with free hand until later.

I have a LN 101 block plane. Its still A2 blade. Would that be more suitable for end grain ? I still think that I would prefer steel that could handle 25 degrees for a low angle plane.

[Eric Danstrom]

I use the Veritas mkII with DMT plates to the "fine grit" (~2000g) then a KING 8000g. It makes my Veritas and Lie Nielson A2 blades able to take half a thousand shaving. Someday I might be a freehander but in the meantime my A2s, O1s and vintage Stanley/Record/Marples/Sorby blades are all as sharp as they can be.

I screwed around with water stones but got feed up with all the mess. DMT plates and windex make it simple....

[Robert Hazelwood]

You can clean Spydercos with Barkeeper's Friend or other kitchen scouring cleaner. I treat mine like an oilstone and use WD40, it lifts the swarf off nicely on the ultrafine.

As I said before, A2 works well enough at 25 degrees in a low angle plane. Based on your descriptions I think you may have a defective iron or you are just really screwing something up during sharpening.

Most any plane is suitable for end grain, just pick a sharpening routine and stick with it until you get decent results, they all work.

[Rob Luter]

.....I have a LN 101 block plane. Its still A2 blade. Would that be more suitable for end grain ? I still think that I would prefer steel that could handle 25 degrees for a low angle plane.

In your original post I missed that you were using a 60 1/2 R. The fairly open mouth on those may be a contributor to your difficulties, but not to the chipping. The 101 is bedded at 20* and is a tiny plane. A #4 used with a skewed/slicing cut should work.

Edit: Your original post speaks of "little metal flakes". Are you sure you're getting the wire edge removed when you sharpen? I had a similar issue once when I hadn't got it removed. A strop or a quick pull through some end grain could make a difference.

[Jim Matthews]

Lots of more experienced users have answered before me. Is the Pine used in the bench from the Baltics, of Norge countries?

Far Northern latitudes produce Pine species with very hard "late wood" which may act as a "brake" on a fast moving plane blade. The *now* rare Longleaf Pine in North America was notorious for this character.

Much of the contemporary North American species are homogeneous and soft by comparison.

Bob Rozaieski offers an excellent summary of much that was discussed.

http://brfinewoodworking.com/planing-end-grain/

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

It's from Norway or Sweden I'm sure. Just under 1 mm between the growth rings.

[Jim Matthews]

It's from Norway or Sweden I'm sure. Just under 1 mm between the growth rings.
A picture might be in order.

Do your boards resemble the attached image?

https://berdollsawmill.com/longleaf-pine/


I suspect your boards may be from older trees that grew more slowly than what we commonly see in North America.

If the plane removes shavings from the flat face of these boards and the narrow edges, the end grain is presenting something much harder.

While the possibility of a defective blade is possible, that would not be my first verification step. (And I have owned poorly made irons, but not from LN or LV.)

[lowell holmes]

I have stones and diamond hones. I use them both.