When does sharpening become overkill?

[Joe Unni]

Hey all,

Having used scary sharp in the past with the old Veritas guide, I decided that would be the most economical way to go (for now) with the new, and just received ;) , Veritas Mk. II Honing Guide.

Lapping the blade of my Stanley LA block went fine and sharpening to 25* (with micro bevel) went perfectly. I could even shave the hairs on my fingers.

Up to this point, my hand tool use was limited to block plane and chisel use mostly for general shaping and trimming. I'm happy to say that I have become quite proficient in their use. However, knowing that I have some projects coming up that will require more hand work, I was wondering the following.

Sharpening to 600 grit has given me fantastic results, but will sharpening to 1000+ grits get me better performance or is the difference incremental?

I'm going for economy, value and performance. IOW is the extra time and money worth the effort?

I might as well throw this in...with the same order, I also received a Nicholson 49, the Veritas LA spokeshave and cabinet scraper.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

-joe

[Mark Singer]

Joe,
Like with so many things it becomes difficult to squeeze out the last little bit of perfection and it probably is not worth the work. After a chisel makes a few cuts it is not as sharp as when fresh off te stone...so what? It still cuts great! Like with zero to 60 in sports cars and super stereo systems that cost mega bucks....is it really that much better?

I usually take out extra chisels and when I am working save the real sharp ones for difficult cuts or alternate.

Your rasp and scraper are among my favorite tools...the scrapper is tricky to sharpen corectly....careful not to roll the burr over too far...it won't cut if you do..there are some good threads on scraper use

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Joe,

If you are happy with the results, why bother?

Planes can obtain a better finish on the wood in the larger sizes using higher grits, but perhaps not a block plane used for trimming/shaping--especially if one sands after planing.

For the chisels, it is the same. There is an performance/endurance issue in really hard woods, and especially if one is using chisels for paring in conjunction with lower bevel angles.

Mostly it goes to purpose, use and the woods involved. If 600 grit is meeting your needs, stop there and keep working.

As Mark noted, scrapers are incredible tools. Use a light touch on the burnisher and you'll do good.

Take care, Mike

[Joe Unni]

Mike & Mark,

Thanks for you input. It's very helpful.

I may have mis-spoken (written) with regards to the cabinet scraper...

I've experienced the wonderful world of card scrapers and yes they are fantastic tools. I've got a system down for sharpening them and for short money they're great.

What I received was the Veritas Cabinet Scraper (their version of the Stanley #80). Is this tool also sharpened like a card scraper? See, pretty new at all this hand stuff...but I'm growing to love it!

Thanks,
-joe

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Joe, I have the same LV scraper as well. The answer is yep, just like a scraper except I do not use a hook, opting instead to just bow the blade with the thumbscrew on the back.

With a fixed position like this plane has, if the hook is not perfect it will not cut, or not cut efficiently.

Take care, Mike

[Dan Forman]

Mike---I just got a nice #80 SW off eBay, how do you go about sharpening to use without a burr, just like a regular plane blade?

Dan

[Rob Millard]

I’ll say up front that I am a fanatic about sharpening, but I don’t invest a lot of time in it. I grind on a hand cranked grinder. I remove the grinding marks with a coarse/fine India stone, and then follow with 800,100,1500,2000 grit paper ( scary sharp). The last step is a little dab of diamond paste on a block of cherry or maple, to hone a mirror finish to the bevel and back. When I first get a tool, I flatten and polish the back, so I only use the 2000 grit paper and the diamond paste on the back, from then on.
Rob Millard

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Dan and Joe,

I typically sharpen at a 45 to 50 degrees or so angle on the Tormek if my wife has been turning and has it out, else I use a mill file at said degree [or there abouts]. It's not critical, though I shoot for there.

Then I hone up through 4k to 8k on stones, just depends on how much of a hurry I am to go back to work.

Just make sure to mount the blade so the bevel goes to the back of the scraper.

fwiw, Joe's 600 grit paper is about equal to a 800 grit stone [16 micron]. 1000 grit paper is equal to about a 1500 grit stone [9.2 micron]. 1500 grit paper is about equal to a 4000 grit stone [1.2 micron].

Take care, Mike

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Joe, I used to use scary sharp and went 320, 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000. After the 500 it only took a few strokes of each finer grit to remove the previous gritss marks. I didn't really notice a difference between 1500 and 2000 but I had it available. Now I use waterstones 1000, 4000, 6000 and 8000. Its not really cleaner since it still uses water, but it takes up less room and I think it'll be cheaper in the long run.

[Jeff Horton]

I never could get mine sharp enough to shave with just going to 600 grit. I recently added 1000. 1500 and 2000. I was quite amazed at the difference. I could then shave my arms without the stinging.

But if you do that with 600 why do anymore?

[Mike Wenzloff]

FWIW,

This is just a general post in this thread regarding what is sharp. Sharpness is a relative term meaning different things to different people.

Sharp is a difficult thing to quantify using common terms so we use what is familiar (shaving arm hair) to express the less common (sharp). Obtaining ultimate sharpness would be a nearly infinite endeavor and it would be impractical to attempt it.

That said, shaving arm hair is not a good indicator of sharpness, just that an edge is refined enough to accomplish this relatively low level of sharpness. A 40 grit wheel on a grinder is sufficient to obtain shaving of hair on an arm, so anything above that which refines the edge merely makes this "test" easier.

Joe's statement that "600 grit has given me fantastic results" is one of the best indicators of what sharp is--that of producing acceptable results for the task(s) at hand.

For instance, I have 3 block planes. One of them I use for general trimming. I rarely hone beyond a 2000 grit stone on it. The other two I hone up to an 8000 grit stone. Why? Because the former plane rarely gets used for more than trimming whereas the latter ones I use for a finished surface.

They all produce acceptable results for the tasks I use them for, despite honing them to lesser or greater degrees. But all of them will shave arm/finger/toe hair <g>.

If my goal is to sharpen to the best that my equipment and I am capable of, I have failed. If instead it is to produce work acceptable to myself, I have saved considerable time by reducing the amount of time and effort spent preparing for work.

Take care, Mike
who is done rambling

[Derek Cohen]

Merry Christmas all!

Mike makes some very important points and, since this is a hobby horse of both of us, I would like to amplify a couple of factors.

"Sharpness" is a relative term for "good enough for the job". How we get there and what this represents in absolute terms is another matter altogether.

The lower micron ratings (of sharpening media) indicate the degree of surface "smoothness" that is attainable and not, as often believed, the degree of sharpness attainable. In general terms, the blade of a Smoother, honed on an 8000 waterstone (1.0 microns) should produce a smoother finish than one whose blade is honed on a 4000 waterstone (3 microns). The finish off a 1200 waterstone (11 microns) will be relatively rough to the touch and serrated to the eye.

In short, the coarser, higher micron medium will leave deeper scratches in the bevel edge, and this transfer to the wood when a cut is made. A serrated edge may still cut well, but you may not like the result. On the other hand (as Mike was pointing out), if the cut is not a finishing cut, why should this matter? Consequently, he keeps one block plane honed to 7.5 microns for rougher work.

So, do you really need to sharpen your scrub blade or jack plane blade to the same level as your smoother?

Just as sharpness should not be confused with smoothness, then sharpness should also not be confused with "penetration". Take, for example, two chisel blade both honed to 8000 waterstone grit, one bevel at 20 degrees and the other at 30 degrees. Which is sharper? The answer is that the question is misleading. The bevel honed at 20 degrees will penetrate the surface more easily than the bevel honed to 30 degrees, so the former may indeed appear "sharper". Run your finger over an edge of a blade honed at 50 degrees for use in a bevel up smoother and it will "feel" relatively blunt. Yet it can take shavings in hardwood that measure below .0005" (I have posted pics of these many times in the reviews I have writen).

There is yet another dimension to consider: edge durability. I use 20 degrees for the bevels of my dovetail paring chisels. Although my Bergs are made from fine steel, the edges do not last as long as the 30 degree Matsumura dovetail chisels. The former are used to take fine shavings while pushed by hand, the latter are hit with a mallet. In other words, the angle of the bevel edge is chosen on the basis of the task at hand, and what will hold up best for the quality of the steel of that blade. This is a compromise situation since, don't forget, the higher angle will reduce penetration, which will reduce the perception of sharpness. There is also evidence that a blade honed to a lower micron level will have greater durability than one honed to a higher level since the more serrated edge is vulnerable to breaking off. This is one reason that I hone my scrub blades to 8000 even though the surface they leave behind is expected to be rough.

And one last factor to keep in mind: as we know, harder wood, more complex grain directions benefit from a higher cutting angle in planes (to avoid tearout).

So where does that leave us?

The briefest summary is that we hone to a micron level that fits the task at hand, and we ally this with a bevel angle that suits both the tool steel and the demands that the timber will place on the bevel angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hey Derek! Merry Christmas back at ya!

Thanks for the "rest of the story." A prize if you know from whom that is a quote--without google <g>.

Take care, Mike

[Alan Turner]

I will present another view, and risk a bit of a backlash. I can appreciate that an edge tool need be no sharper than needed for the task at hand. But, that said, I find that once I have a jig set up with a tool at the needed angle, and then get to even a 1000 grit waterstone edge, going to 5000 and then 8000 takes only a few strokes, and as such it seems there is such a marginal investment of time, it is worth the modest effort. On the other hand, when I am in the middle of a task, such as cutting a set of dovetails, or paring in some tenon shoulders, then I tend to go freehand and oft use only a single, white arkansas stone with water, the grit size of which I do not know, but it is pretty fine. When planing, however, I generally do take the time to sharpen "properly" as I tend not to do rough work with a plane, but instead burn a few electrons for the sake of pace. My plane usage s generally for smoothing, or fitting, and is thus mostly a pretty precise type of work.
'
Each to his own.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Alan,

We actually agree. Which is why quantifying what is said is beneficial, expecially across sharpening mediums. This is what paper=stone=micron does. How well it is performed is another matter, but at least knowing what equals what makes comparitive discussion profitable.

Most of my honing is done while working--so I only hone to the degree needed in order to get back to work. Except on a couple planes as noted, which were in line with the OP's plane. And as noted, planes used for any other task but trimming are always to the highest stone I possess, the 8k. Chisels while working I just do a few swipes with a 2k between paring mortises to tenons.

I also tend to sharpen--as a distinction with honing whilst working--in sessions, most often with my morning coffee. I tend then to work with a honing guide to correct any defecencies in my hand honing I do while working, and start from the lower grits to the highest. Once again, minus a couple planes. If it matters, I mostly use Shapton stones for their speed and longevity, 1k, 2k, 4k [King waterstone] and an 8k.

fwiw, the hard white Arkansas is equivilent to 700 grit paper and a 1000 grit stone [14 micron].

Take care, a merry Christmas to all.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Alan

No need to fear "a backlash". My comments above were in response to the original question posed, "when does sharpening become overkill?". My aim was to clarify what "sharp" means, not to advocate what level one should hone to.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wes Harper]

I've got to say that sharpening is one of the most interesting aspects of woodworking as far as I'm concerned.

As to the original question, I think it is overkill when the return is not worth the additional effort. It is a subjective call for each person, job, and tool.

I apologize if someone has already mentioned this in this thread, but another aspect to consider is the quality of the blade. Some of the stock blades of various vintages are of decent overall quality, yet others are probably best suited for coarse work. I contend the ones that won't hold an edge aren't worth the extra effort, time, and cost of finer grits.

[Corvin Alstot]

. . . I find that once I have a jig set up with a tool at the needed angle, and then get to even a 1000 grit waterstone edge, going to 5000 and then 8000 takes only a few strokes . . .
Your right concerning the speed of going to higher numbered stones after you pass 1000 grit. So I always end on 8000 grit. But I do not do this for a living. I also tend to sharpen a bunch of blades or chisels all at once.
Things just work better when everything is ready to go and sharp.

[Derek Cohen]

Hey Derek! Merry Christmas back at ya!

Thanks for the "rest of the story." A prize if you know from whom that is a quote--without google <g>.

Take care, Mike

Hey Mike, I thought I had answered this, but clearly had not.

I have no idea where the quote is from. So I googled and came up with a come of movies and a couple or porno sites. Which of the porno sites were you referring to? :)

Best wishes for Christmas

Derek

[Wes Harper]

Mike, are you talking about Paul Harvey? Do I win?

[Mike Wenzloff]

Of course, Paul Harvey Sr.

But the offer was for Derek. So no banana.

Take care, Mike

[Larry Gelder]

Rob - Do you have a tool rest for your hand grinder? If so did it come with the grinder or did you make it?

Thanks,
Larry

[Rob Millard]

Rob - Do you have a tool rest for your hand grinder? If so did it come with the grinder or did you make it?

Thanks,
Larry

Larry,

The grinder ( a flea market find in the late 70's) came with a tool rest. The rest is nothing more than a bent piece of steel, with a bolt in a slot to allow for adjusting the angle. Other than this rest, I never use any sort of jig for sharpening.

Rob Millard

[Alan Turner]

Very nice, Rob. Looks to me like a Federal period grinder, but the photo wasn't quite clear enough to tell for sure.

[Rob Millard]

Very nice, Rob. Looks to me like a Federal period grinder, but the photo wasn't quite clear enough to tell for sure.

Alan,
Yes, it is a Federal period grinder. I would say it is from the early Federal period, as opposed to my router and surface planner which are from the late Federal period.
I bought the grinder in 1979 shortly after I purchased my jointer plane, and I’ve never had any reason to upgrade to a motorized grinder. I did buy one of those little Delta wet grinder ($29.95 at Lowe’s) for small carving tools, that are difficult to grind without burning, even with a hand cranked grinder.
Rob Millard

[James Carmichael]

Joe,

I think Marc's reply hit the nail on the head.

About a year and a half ago, I came across an article on WoodCraft's website on sharpening. The author interviewed 3 prominent woodworkers and watched the sharpen. Each one used a different method oil, water, and SS (can't recall the other two, but Garrett Hack was the oilstone man). The goal was to determine how to get the best results with each medium, and if there was a "best" method.

The instructor who used SS only sharpened to 600 grit most of the time, reserving the finer grits for really detailed work like dovetails or working with softwoods.

BTW, after researching each method, the author said he bought a granite and various grits of SC sandpaper.

[Larry Gelder]

Rob - I think I have the identical grinder. Is that your original stone?

[Joe Unni]

Thanks everyone for all of your insight and commentary. I guess I didn't realize what this question would generate.

It's great to know that there is a place I can go to hear many opinions on most anything and then have the ability to cull through and apply comments and suggestions accordingly. For that I'm grateful.

Thanks again,
-joe

[tod evans]

joe, my handtools are sharpened as quickly as possible, i`ll remove nicks on a belt sander then 220 on a plate then directly to a homemade 14" leather covered honing wheel usually dressed with green aluminum compound..gouges are honed using appropriately shaped leather wheels and compound mounted in whatever is handy from a cordless drill to a die grinder. for my good antiques i use oil stones but those tools stay in the cabinet unless it`s a family project....02 tod